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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:54 am 
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kleefton wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Its the logical result. Bottas is a good No. 2 driver - and not going to challenge Hamilton.


It is only a good decision if Merc produces another fairly dominant car imo. You’d have to think both Ferrari and Redbull will be stronger next year. You have Verstappen, Vettel, Leclerc in those cars. Bottas can’t beat Hamilton. Where do you think Bottas is going to finish among those guys if the cars are fairly equal?


After Bottas seemed to enter 2019 with an attitude of trying to compete for the World Title, it seems Bottas is now back in the box, which suits Mercedes and Hamilton. Bottas can qualify well, and that is still a big factor if you can also get a good start. There are enough circuits where race craft is not much help so Bottas should be able to collect enough points.

Red Bull have the team to be able to compete if Honda can develop the engine enough. If they do that, I expect Max to be challenging Hamilton - not Bottas. Ferrari seem to be capable of not succeeding by always having a weakness in some part of the package, but they are failing badly if they cannot get even one win in a year of 21 races.
Mercedes have the complete package. Maybe in 2021, the order might change.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:05 pm 
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I thought that his contract should be extended in this instance, though I wouldn’t have had much of an opinion either way had they opted to drop him last year. He is currently having his best season since joining the team so to have dropped him now would perhaps have sent out a worse message than Red Bull are seen to do at times.

Further to that, I didn’t think it made sense to put Ocon into a championship winning car after a year out. There is now George Russell who may well have more potential than Ocon, and clearly he would be a similar risk after only 1 year in a Williams. I think he’ll still be a risk if he spends another 2 years at Williams with Williams and Mercedes retaining their places at opposite ends of the grid, but that’s a future debate I suspect.

If Ferrari or Red Bull take the constructors in the next few years, then I suspect that’ll be the catalyst to drop him. For now, he’s an experienced driver to avoid Mercedes perhaps risking 2 younger drivers should Hamilton decide to go in 2021 (though I think this is unlikely with the records he stands to break.) If it is true that Lewis and the engineers swayed the decision in Bottas’s favour, they must think he is close to signing another contract.

Ricciardo could be seen as a known quantity on the grid, so if Ocon performs well against him and Bottas dips again, Mercedes might be interested in him when he is next available.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:18 am 
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-K- wrote:
I thought that his contract should be extended in this instance, though I wouldn’t have had much of an opinion either way had they opted to drop him last year. He is currently having his best season since joining the team so to have dropped him now would perhaps have sent out a worse message than Red Bull are seen to do at times.

Further to that, I didn’t think it made sense to put Ocon into a championship winning car after a year out. There is now George Russell who may well have more potential than Ocon, and clearly he would be a similar risk after only 1 year in a Williams. I think he’ll still be a risk if he spends another 2 years at Williams with Williams and Mercedes retaining their places at opposite ends of the grid, but that’s a future debate I suspect.

If Ferrari or Red Bull take the constructors in the next few years, then I suspect that’ll be the catalyst to drop him. For now, he’s an experienced driver to avoid Mercedes perhaps risking 2 younger drivers should Hamilton decide to go in 2021 (though I think this is unlikely with the records he stands to break.) If it is true that Lewis and the engineers swayed the decision in Bottas’s favour, they must think he is close to signing another contract.

Ricciardo could be seen as a known quantity on the grid, so if Ocon performs well against him and Bottas dips again, Mercedes might be interested in him when he is next available.

Apparently Mercedes are already looking to open negotiations for Hamilton's next contract.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:25 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
babararacucudada wrote:
Its the logical result. Bottas is a good No. 2 driver - and not going to challenge Hamilton.


It is only a good decision if Merc produces another fairly dominant car imo. You’d have to think both Ferrari and Redbull will be stronger next year. You have Verstappen, Vettel, Leclerc in those cars. Bottas can’t beat Hamilton. Where do you think Bottas is going to finish among those guys if the cars are fairly equal?

Bottas was good enough in 2017 and 2018. I don't think it makes sense to compare Bottas to Verstappen and Vettel in this instance. You would instead compare him to Leclerc and Albon, and he has clearly out-performed both of those guys this year.


He has but that is largely because of the car he had at his disposal earlier in the year. He’s basically only been racing Lewis until recently. In 17 and 18 he never had real competition from Redbull because they were too unreliable and slow, and the second Ferrari had an underperforming Räikkönen. And though vettel has been less than impressive he still beat bottas both years. Whenever the cars were close on a weekend Bottas was typically nowhere and was outraced by basically all the others in the top 6.


I didn't think there was ever a race where Bottas was outraced by all 5 other drivers in the top 3 teams. There were multiple races near the end of last season where he finished 5th though and that possibly could have been 6th without retirements from the other teams though we can't prove it.

I thought that some did think that Ferrari was close to or equal to mercedes in the past couple of years, so I don't think it is that unrealistic that vettel beat him both times. the end of last year certainly was disappointing and the fact he finished 5th was down to this poor form. but then you also could say that he would have finished 3rd had it not been for team orders in Russia.


Cota 2017 is the first one that springs to mind for me. Everyone in the top 6 took turn passing him or beat him and he was the slowest of the group by far while Hamilton dominated the weekend. Hungary 2018 also was not too good. To me he was at times the weakest driver in the top 6 in 2017 and 2018.

Just to clarify my point, I don't think Bottas is a bad driver. I've always felt that he is a very solid driver, but it is a tough group at the top and that is why I am a bit surprised Merc chose him for 2020 considering who his competitors are going to be. But then again there is no guarantee that Ocon is better so there is that.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:37 am 
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kleefton wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
kleefton wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
It is only a good decision if Merc produces another fairly dominant car imo. You’d have to think both Ferrari and Redbull will be stronger next year. You have Verstappen, Vettel, Leclerc in those cars. Bottas can’t beat Hamilton. Where do you think Bottas is going to finish among those guys if the cars are fairly equal?

Bottas was good enough in 2017 and 2018. I don't think it makes sense to compare Bottas to Verstappen and Vettel in this instance. You would instead compare him to Leclerc and Albon, and he has clearly out-performed both of those guys this year.


He has but that is largely because of the car he had at his disposal earlier in the year. He’s basically only been racing Lewis until recently. In 17 and 18 he never had real competition from Redbull because they were too unreliable and slow, and the second Ferrari had an underperforming Räikkönen. And though vettel has been less than impressive he still beat bottas both years. Whenever the cars were close on a weekend Bottas was typically nowhere and was outraced by basically all the others in the top 6.


I didn't think there was ever a race where Bottas was outraced by all 5 other drivers in the top 3 teams. There were multiple races near the end of last season where he finished 5th though and that possibly could have been 6th without retirements from the other teams though we can't prove it.

I thought that some did think that Ferrari was close to or equal to mercedes in the past couple of years, so I don't think it is that unrealistic that vettel beat him both times. the end of last year certainly was disappointing and the fact he finished 5th was down to this poor form. but then you also could say that he would have finished 3rd had it not been for team orders in Russia.


Cota 2017 is the first one that springs to mind for me. Everyone in the top 6 took turn passing him or beat him and he was the slowest of the group by far while Hamilton dominated the weekend. Hungary 2018 also was not too good. To me he was at times the weakest driver in the top 6 in 2017 and 2018.

Just to clarify my point, I don't think Bottas is a bad driver. I've always felt that he is a very solid driver, but it is a tough group at the top and that is why I am a bit surprised Merc chose him for 2020 considering who his competitors are going to be. But then again there is no guarantee that Ocon is better so there is that.

Well I think the juror is out on how strong the second Red Bull driver is going to be?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:21 am 
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Apparently Bottas said he's completely free in 2021. Wonder if Mercedes have told him he'll be replaced in 2021 by Ocon or Russell?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:55 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Apparently Bottas said he's completely free in 2021. Wonder if Mercedes have told him he'll be replaced in 2021 by Ocon or Russell?

By that time Ferrari will be looking for a new #2 driver to support Leclerc

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:22 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Apparently Bottas said he's completely free in 2021. Wonder if Mercedes have told him he'll be replaced in 2021 by Ocon or Russell?


Won't be Ocon as he is already signed to partner Ricciardo at Renault next year.

Would love to see Russell given a much better ride than his current Williams seat. OTOH if Williams were to come round to being a mid-pack runner that would work also.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:43 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Apparently Bottas said he's completely free in 2021. Wonder if Mercedes have told him he'll be replaced in 2021 by Ocon or Russell?

By that time Ferrari will be looking for a new #2 driver to support Leclerc

I can very much see Ferrari choosing Bottas over, say, Ricciardo. Daniel never really fit the mold of a #2 driver wheres Valteri has been the new and improved version of Rubens. I think both of them would make difficult teammates for young Charles but, at least on Sunday, Daniel would be tougher.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:47 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Apparently Bottas said he's completely free in 2021. Wonder if Mercedes have told him he'll be replaced in 2021 by Ocon or Russell?

Neither. I think Mercedes will want Verstappen in the car and, unless Red Bull can provide a championship capable car by 2020, I think Max might just take them up on the offer. I don't think it would be Max's first choice to team up with Lewis but I also don't think he'll want to sit and watch Charles win more races than he does. What we're seeing now with Leclerc will light a fire under Max; especially if it continues into next year.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:00 pm 
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I'm with the "all depends on who the replacement might be" brigade. The way I'd see it is that you have the ultimate base line in Hamilton. If you're KO assuming that he can get the best out of the car every race, the most you can hope for your other driver is 1) they follow him home and don't let other cars get inbetween and 2) they pick up the points when Hamiton can't for whatever reason.

By those measure I'd say overall Bottas is still doing the job. Just. In 9 of 14 races they have finished in sequential positions.

Bottas is 2nd in the WDC with Hamilton first. Hamilton has scored an av of 20pts/race and Bottas 16. That's basically 2nd and 3rd place.

So as a No 2 or dare I say it, wingman I would retain him.

BUT...

If you want someone to push Hamilton harder and beat him on merit, then I think I'd look elsewhere. That's a short list. If you then reduce it to the available drivers it's even shorter. IMO the only ones in that bracket are Verstappen, Alonso, maybe Ricciardo and increasingly less so...Vettel. And if I can't see a healthy dynamic there with anyone but Ricciardo.

Question is - do you want that. Assuming they win the WDC and WCC why risk anything by having two "alpha" drivers.

Fact is Bottas is pretty much the perfect driver for Merc as long as Hamilton is in the other car,

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:31 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
I'm with the "all depends on who the replacement might be" brigade. The way I'd see it is that you have the ultimate base line in Hamilton. If you're KO assuming that he can get the best out of the car every race, the most you can hope for your other driver is 1) they follow him home and don't let other cars get inbetween and 2) they pick up the points when Hamiton can't for whatever reason.

By those measure I'd say overall Bottas is still doing the job. Just. In 9 of 14 races they have finished in sequential positions.

Bottas is 2nd in the WDC with Hamilton first. Hamilton has scored an av of 20pts/race and Bottas 16. That's basically 2nd and 3rd place.

So as a No 2 or dare I say it, wingman I would retain him.

BUT...

If you want someone to push Hamilton harder and beat him on merit, then I think I'd look elsewhere. That's a short list. If you then reduce it to the available drivers it's even shorter. IMO the only ones in that bracket are Verstappen, Alonso, maybe Ricciardo and increasingly less so...Vettel. And if I can't see a healthy dynamic there with anyone but Ricciardo.

Question is - do you want that. Assuming they win the WDC and WCC why risk anything by having two "alpha" drivers.

Fact is Bottas is pretty much the perfect driver for Merc as long as Hamilton is in the other car,

I agree on most of this. The thing is that Hamilton won't be there forever and, at some point, Mercedes will need to consider what to do about lining up a proper replacement. Max and Charles frankly are the only two qualified candidates. They are both young enough and talented enough to make Mercedes feel that they can build around them for the long run. I don't think Charles is going anywhere so that basically leaves just one guy. The question is, when? Do they sign Lewis to one more 2-3 year contract and then plan to bring in Max when that is over and Lewis likely retires from the sport or do they attempt to team them together?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:37 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
I'm with the "all depends on who the replacement might be" brigade. The way I'd see it is that you have the ultimate base line in Hamilton. If you're KO assuming that he can get the best out of the car every race, the most you can hope for your other driver is 1) they follow him home and don't let other cars get inbetween and 2) they pick up the points when Hamiton can't for whatever reason.

By those measure I'd say overall Bottas is still doing the job. Just. In 9 of 14 races they have finished in sequential positions.

Bottas is 2nd in the WDC with Hamilton first. Hamilton has scored an av of 20pts/race and Bottas 16. That's basically 2nd and 3rd place.

So as a No 2 or dare I say it, wingman I would retain him.

BUT...

If you want someone to push Hamilton harder and beat him on merit, then I think I'd look elsewhere. That's a short list. If you then reduce it to the available drivers it's even shorter. IMO the only ones in that bracket are Verstappen, Alonso, maybe Ricciardo and increasingly less so...Vettel. And if I can't see a healthy dynamic there with anyone but Ricciardo.

Question is - do you want that. Assuming they win the WDC and WCC why risk anything by having two "alpha" drivers.

Fact is Bottas is pretty much the perfect driver for Merc as long as Hamilton is in the other car,

I agree on most of this. The thing is that Hamilton won't be there forever and, at some point, Mercedes will need to consider what to do about lining up a proper replacement. Max and Charles frankly are the only two qualified candidates. They are both young enough and talented enough to make Mercedes feel that they can build around them for the long run. I don't think Charles is going anywhere so that basically leaves just one guy. The question is, when? Do they sign Lewis to one more 2-3 year contract and then plan to bring in Max when that is over and Lewis likely retires from the sport or do they attempt to team them together?


Unless someone else emerges. I think that when Hamilton reaches 36/37 if Verstappen becomes available they have to sign him. Hamilton will have the choice to race him or leave. A but like Ferrari and Schumacher in 2006.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:37 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Apparently Bottas said he's completely free in 2021. Wonder if Mercedes have told him he'll be replaced in 2021 by Ocon or Russell?

I think that's more semantics than anything, Mercedes had an option on him for next year which Bottas had to wait on.

Would Bottas rush to sign for another team before waiting on what Mercedes decide to do for 2021?

Maybe if the likes of either Ferrari or Red Bull came a calling or a multi-year deal with Renault or McLaren?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:45 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
I'm with the "all depends on who the replacement might be" brigade. The way I'd see it is that you have the ultimate base line in Hamilton. If you're KO assuming that he can get the best out of the car every race, the most you can hope for your other driver is 1) they follow him home and don't let other cars get inbetween and 2) they pick up the points when Hamiton can't for whatever reason.

By those measure I'd say overall Bottas is still doing the job. Just. In 9 of 14 races they have finished in sequential positions.

Bottas is 2nd in the WDC with Hamilton first. Hamilton has scored an av of 20pts/race and Bottas 16. That's basically 2nd and 3rd place.

So as a No 2 or dare I say it, wingman I would retain him.

BUT...

If you want someone to push Hamilton harder and beat him on merit, then I think I'd look elsewhere. That's a short list. If you then reduce it to the available drivers it's even shorter. IMO the only ones in that bracket are Verstappen, Alonso, maybe Ricciardo and increasingly less so...Vettel. And if I can't see a healthy dynamic there with anyone but Ricciardo.

Question is - do you want that. Assuming they win the WDC and WCC why risk anything by having two "alpha" drivers.

Fact is Bottas is pretty much the perfect driver for Merc as long as Hamilton is in the other car,

I agree on most of this. The thing is that Hamilton won't be there forever and, at some point, Mercedes will need to consider what to do about lining up a proper replacement. Max and Charles frankly are the only two qualified candidates. They are both young enough and talented enough to make Mercedes feel that they can build around them for the long run. I don't think Charles is going anywhere so that basically leaves just one guy. The question is, when? Do they sign Lewis to one more 2-3 year contract and then plan to bring in Max when that is over and Lewis likely retires from the sport or do they attempt to team them together?


Unless someone else emerges. I think that when Hamilton reaches 36/37 if Verstappen becomes available they have to sign him. Hamilton will have the choice to race him or leave. A but like Ferrari and Schumacher in 2006.

Yeah I can see that playing out as well, at about 37/38 Hamilton is maybe on the cusp of starting to decline, he has one 2/3 year contract whilst still in his prime and team leader at Mercedes, then beyond that Mercedes have to start thinking about succession planning.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:31 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Verstappen is closing in on Bottas. I think there's a good chance Bottas may finish 3rd in the WDC table. Not looking good for Bottas.

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Source - Imgur

yea because bottas retired by crashing out the one and only time he has and Verstappen won. I think it is unlikely that this year will go by without one of Verstappen's risky moves having bad consequences. I doubt Bottas will do this again and I think the mercedes car will give Bottas enough of an advantage to extend that gap.


I forgot that i said this. Wasn't long before it was true - twice :lol:

I expected it would be because of this and the Mercedes advantage that Bottas will likely remain safe. Plus he also still seems to have more or less the same aggression and pace he had at the start of the season, which has faded nowhere near as much as the last 2 seasons. I expect 2 is where he will finish this year.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 11:19 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Verstappen is closing in on Bottas. I think there's a good chance Bottas may finish 3rd in the WDC table. Not looking good for Bottas.

Image
Source - Imgur

yea because bottas retired by crashing out the one and only time he has and Verstappen won. I think it is unlikely that this year will go by without one of Verstappen's risky moves having bad consequences. I doubt Bottas will do this again and I think the mercedes car will give Bottas enough of an advantage to extend that gap.


I forgot that i said this. Wasn't long before it was true - twice :lol:

I expected it would be because of this and the Mercedes advantage that Bottas will likely remain safe. Plus he also still seems to have more or less the same aggression and pace he had at the start of the season, which has faded nowhere near as much as the last 2 seasons. I expect 2 is where he will finish this year.

I think you forget about Verstappen's engine penalty?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 6:24 am 
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pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Verstappen is closing in on Bottas. I think there's a good chance Bottas may finish 3rd in the WDC table. Not looking good for Bottas.

Image
Source - Imgur

yea because bottas retired by crashing out the one and only time he has and Verstappen won. I think it is unlikely that this year will go by without one of Verstappen's risky moves having bad consequences. I doubt Bottas will do this again and I think the mercedes car will give Bottas enough of an advantage to extend that gap.


I forgot that i said this. Wasn't long before it was true - twice :lol:

I expected it would be because of this and the Mercedes advantage that Bottas will likely remain safe. Plus he also still seems to have more or less the same aggression and pace he had at the start of the season, which has faded nowhere near as much as the last 2 seasons. I expect 2 is where he will finish this year.

I think you forget about Verstappen's engine penalty?

Erm, no? why is that an excuse to crash into another car and have to replace your front wing? I knew this was at the back in Italy. This is an irrelevant reason for him causing damage to his car...

Some can have different opinions about the initial contact in Belgium, but the manner in which he drove and then crashed out was stupidly dangerous given he had a damaged car. He didn't attempt to slow down.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:47 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
pokerman wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Verstappen is closing in on Bottas. I think there's a good chance Bottas may finish 3rd in the WDC table. Not looking good for Bottas.

Image
Source - Imgur

yea because bottas retired by crashing out the one and only time he has and Verstappen won. I think it is unlikely that this year will go by without one of Verstappen's risky moves having bad consequences. I doubt Bottas will do this again and I think the mercedes car will give Bottas enough of an advantage to extend that gap.


I forgot that i said this. Wasn't long before it was true - twice :lol:

I expected it would be because of this and the Mercedes advantage that Bottas will likely remain safe. Plus he also still seems to have more or less the same aggression and pace he had at the start of the season, which has faded nowhere near as much as the last 2 seasons. I expect 2 is where he will finish this year.

I think you forget about Verstappen's engine penalty?

Erm, no? why is that an excuse to crash into another car and have to replace your front wing? I knew this was at the back in Italy. This is an irrelevant reason for him causing damage to his car...

Some can have different opinions about the initial contact in Belgium, but the manner in which he drove and then crashed out was stupidly dangerous given he had a damaged car. He didn't attempt to slow down.

I just meant that in your initial summary you neglected to mention that Verstappen's ability to beat Bottas in the WDC will also be tempered by having to take engine penalties.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 1:27 pm 
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Was this the first time a driver was told to slow down 3.4 seconds a lap to keep from passing his teammate? Bottas should have at least received a warning from race control for brake checking Albon.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:27 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Was this the first time a driver was told to slow down 3.4 seconds a lap to keep from passing his teammate? Bottas should have at least received a warning from race control for brake checking Albon.

I know that i am a fan of Bottas, but it does seem you are more against him than most. he did not do any heavy breaking behind Albon. He lifted off. Hamilton effectively did much worse than this even when he wasn't told to let Bottas ahead in Hungary 2017. Bottas was 7 seconds behind, and in the last few corners, he backed right off almost interfering with he backmarkers as they had to overtake him.

I don't see why Bottas would get any sort of warning for what he did today.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:38 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Was this the first time a driver was told to slow down 3.4 seconds a lap to keep from passing his teammate? Bottas should have at least received a warning from race control for brake checking Albon.


He brake checked Albon?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 6:03 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Was this the first time a driver was told to slow down 3.4 seconds a lap to keep from passing his teammate? Bottas should have at least received a warning from race control for brake checking Albon.


Not the first. Not the thirty first, nor the ninety first. Do your research :uhoh:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:53 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
Todd wrote:
Was this the first time a driver was told to slow down 3.4 seconds a lap to keep from passing his teammate? Bottas should have at least received a warning from race control for brake checking Albon.


Not the first. Not the thirty first, nor the ninety first. Do your research :uhoh:


I've been watching since 1976. I've seen drivers told not to pass. I've seen drivers told to let their teammate by. I don't think I've seen anyone told to park on track to let their teammate rejoin in front of them with a horrible strategy.

Did the people who asked about the brake check not see Albon go off track because he closed on Bottas with a 50 kph difference in the turn before the pit exit when Bottas stopped to let Hamilton out in front of him?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 9:01 pm 
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Todd wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Todd wrote:
Was this the first time a driver was told to slow down 3.4 seconds a lap to keep from passing his teammate? Bottas should have at least received a warning from race control for brake checking Albon.


Not the first. Not the thirty first, nor the ninety first. Do your research :uhoh:


I've been watching since 1976. I've seen drivers told not to pass. I've seen drivers told to let their teammate by. I don't think I've seen anyone told to park on track to let their teammate rejoin in front of them with a horrible strategy.

Did the people who asked about the brake check not see Albon go off track because he closed on Bottas with a 50 kph difference in the turn before the pit exit when Bottas stopped to let Hamilton out in front of him?


Yeah, that's not a brake check.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:20 am 
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Todd wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Todd wrote:
Was this the first time a driver was told to slow down 3.4 seconds a lap to keep from passing his teammate? Bottas should have at least received a warning from race control for brake checking Albon.


Not the first. Not the thirty first, nor the ninety first. Do your research :uhoh:


I've been watching since 1976. I've seen drivers told not to pass. I've seen drivers told to let their teammate by. I don't think I've seen anyone told to park on track to let their teammate rejoin in front of them with a horrible strategy.

Did the people who asked about the brake check not see Albon go off track because he closed on Bottas with a 50 kph difference in the turn before the pit exit when Bottas stopped to let Hamilton out in front of him?

If you are having a go at Bottas for this, do you not see a problem with Hamilton in Hungary 2017. He lapped Perez then Sainz only to at the end back right up and almost put Sainz at risk of getting passed by Perez. They then both retook the position and Bottas just about got by him too. That was obviously the intention. I know these two other drivers were lapped, but Hamilton effected them significantly more than Bottas effected Albon. And I don't think this was even looked into, and I don't think it needed to be.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 6:25 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Todd wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Todd wrote:
Was this the first time a driver was told to slow down 3.4 seconds a lap to keep from passing his teammate? Bottas should have at least received a warning from race control for brake checking Albon.


Not the first. Not the thirty first, nor the ninety first. Do your research :uhoh:


I've been watching since 1976. I've seen drivers told not to pass. I've seen drivers told to let their teammate by. I don't think I've seen anyone told to park on track to let their teammate rejoin in front of them with a horrible strategy.

Did the people who asked about the brake check not see Albon go off track because he closed on Bottas with a 50 kph difference in the turn before the pit exit when Bottas stopped to let Hamilton out in front of him?

If you are having a go at Bottas for this, do you not see a problem with Hamilton in Hungary 2017. He lapped Perez then Sainz only to at the end back right up and almost put Sainz at risk of getting passed by Perez. They then both retook the position and Bottas just about got by him too. That was obviously the intention. I know these two other drivers were lapped, but Hamilton effected them significantly more than Bottas effected Albon. And I don't think this was even looked into, and I don't think it needed to be.


Both are fine but that did only happen because Sainz didn't want to unlap himself and do an extra lap. He wasn't blocked. He was playing games as much as Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:04 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Todd wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Todd wrote:
Was this the first time a driver was told to slow down 3.4 seconds a lap to keep from passing his teammate? Bottas should have at least received a warning from race control for brake checking Albon.


Not the first. Not the thirty first, nor the ninety first. Do your research :uhoh:


I've been watching since 1976. I've seen drivers told not to pass. I've seen drivers told to let their teammate by. I don't think I've seen anyone told to park on track to let their teammate rejoin in front of them with a horrible strategy.

Did the people who asked about the brake check not see Albon go off track because he closed on Bottas with a 50 kph difference in the turn before the pit exit when Bottas stopped to let Hamilton out in front of him?

If you are having a go at Bottas for this, do you not see a problem with Hamilton in Hungary 2017. He lapped Perez then Sainz only to at the end back right up and almost put Sainz at risk of getting passed by Perez. They then both retook the position and Bottas just about got by him too. That was obviously the intention. I know these two other drivers were lapped, but Hamilton effected them significantly more than Bottas effected Albon. And I don't think this was even looked into, and I don't think it needed to be.


Both are fine but that did only happen because Sainz didn't want to unlap himself and do an extra lap. He wasn't blocked. He was playing games as much as Hamilton.

Vettel and Kimi had already lapped him though so it is still questionable whyhe was ging so slow behind Hamilton. He in the end got by.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 8:49 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Todd wrote:
shoot999 wrote:

Not the first. Not the thirty first, nor the ninety first. Do your research :uhoh:


I've been watching since 1976. I've seen drivers told not to pass. I've seen drivers told to let their teammate by. I don't think I've seen anyone told to park on track to let their teammate rejoin in front of them with a horrible strategy.

Did the people who asked about the brake check not see Albon go off track because he closed on Bottas with a 50 kph difference in the turn before the pit exit when Bottas stopped to let Hamilton out in front of him?

If you are having a go at Bottas for this, do you not see a problem with Hamilton in Hungary 2017. He lapped Perez then Sainz only to at the end back right up and almost put Sainz at risk of getting passed by Perez. They then both retook the position and Bottas just about got by him too. That was obviously the intention. I know these two other drivers were lapped, but Hamilton effected them significantly more than Bottas effected Albon. And I don't think this was even looked into, and I don't think it needed to be.


Both are fine but that did only happen because Sainz didn't want to unlap himself and do an extra lap. He wasn't blocked. He was playing games as much as Hamilton.

Vettel and Kimi had already lapped him though so it is still questionable whyhe was ging so slow behind Hamilton. He in the end got by.


Yes true.

Irrelevant anyway. Neither Bottas nor Hamilton did anything wrong.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 10:29 am 
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I'd say it was incompetence by Merc as they basically screwed the strategy of both of their cars and threw away the victory.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 3:24 pm 
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This is why Bottas contract was extended. They knew he lacks a backbone.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:47 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
This is why Bottas contract was extended. They knew he lacks a backbone.


This certainly appears to be the case. Now if we can just figure out why Grosjean has a job!

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 4:56 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Was this the first time a driver was told to slow down 3.4 seconds a lap to keep from passing his teammate? Bottas should have at least received a warning from race control for brake checking Albon.


This situation was embarrassing and considering Mercedes were fighting over 4th to 6th here with only a small difference in points either way and Hamilton being miles ahead in the WDC, it was unnecessary to give Bottas this order to make him feel even more like a number 2. I mean we all know that he is their number 2, but that doesn't mean that every situation in every race needs to have the number 1 driver get preferential treatment to the detriment of the number 2 driver, or 'wingman' in this case.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:08 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Todd wrote:
Was this the first time a driver was told to slow down 3.4 seconds a lap to keep from passing his teammate? Bottas should have at least received a warning from race control for brake checking Albon.


This situation was embarrassing and considering Mercedes were fighting over 4th to 6th here with only a small difference in points either way and Hamilton being miles ahead in the WDC, it was unnecessary to give Bottas this order to make him feel even more like a number 2. I mean we all know that he is their number 2, but that doesn't mean that every situation in every race needs to have the number 1 driver get preferential treatment to the detriment of the number 2 driver, or 'wingman' in this case.


Bottas was told to slow down as Hamilton was at risk from Albon, if Bottas overtook Hamilton he would have just been asked to move over anyway as this needed to happen as Mercedes put total faith into their overcut strategy hoping on the front runners tyres to go and they would need to 2 stop. The strategy was never going to work but they had to back it.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:27 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Todd wrote:
Was this the first time a driver was told to slow down 3.4 seconds a lap to keep from passing his teammate? Bottas should have at least received a warning from race control for brake checking Albon.


This situation was embarrassing and considering Mercedes were fighting over 4th to 6th here with only a small difference in points either way and Hamilton being miles ahead in the WDC, it was unnecessary to give Bottas this order to make him feel even more like a number 2. I mean we all know that he is their number 2, but that doesn't mean that every situation in every race needs to have the number 1 driver get preferential treatment to the detriment of the number 2 driver, or 'wingman' in this case.


Bottas was told to slow down as Hamilton was at risk from Albon, if Bottas overtook Hamilton he would have just been asked to move over anyway as this needed to happen as Mercedes put total faith into their overcut strategy hoping on the front runners tyres to go and they would need to 2 stop. The strategy was never going to work but they had to back it.


Yeah, but like I said, the points difference at stake was so minimal then why make Bottas feel even worse? It was all unnecessary in my opinion and another poor call that was trying to help back up another poor strategy.

Hard tyres that are 8 laps fresher is only a tiny advantage that gradually decreases with each passing lap, (i.e. Hamilton on say 20 lap old hard tyres does not have much better grip than the others with 28 lap old hard tyres).


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:29 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
This is why Bottas contract was extended. They knew he lacks a backbone.


Title looks to be done, Mercedes have rules in the team and Bottas stuck by them. Is it worth upsetting the team for the rest of the season when you have a contract and a new crack at the title next year.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:33 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Todd wrote:
Was this the first time a driver was told to slow down 3.4 seconds a lap to keep from passing his teammate? Bottas should have at least received a warning from race control for brake checking Albon.


This situation was embarrassing and considering Mercedes were fighting over 4th to 6th here with only a small difference in points either way and Hamilton being miles ahead in the WDC, it was unnecessary to give Bottas this order to make him feel even more like a number 2. I mean we all know that he is their number 2, but that doesn't mean that every situation in every race needs to have the number 1 driver get preferential treatment to the detriment of the number 2 driver, or 'wingman' in this case.


Yes, Mercedes should have thrown out the only card they had to play (go long for fresher tyres) so as not to embarrass Bottas. Just bring Hamilton in as per usual which would have brought him out in front of Bottas. As you say they were fighting over 4th and 6th, and obviously had no interest in trying something risky to get a chance of the win.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 5:52 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
This is why Bottas contract was extended. They knew he lacks a backbone.


Title looks to be done, Mercedes have rules in the team and Bottas stuck by them. Is it worth upsetting the team for the rest of the season when you have a contract and a new crack at the title next year.


Bottas doesn't have a crack at the title next year.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:22 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
This is why Bottas contract was extended. They knew he lacks a backbone.

Because he wasn't allowed to undercut Hamilton, Hamilton was running second but finished 4th whilst Bottas was running 5th and finished 5th yet it was Bottas that got screwed by Mercedes, that's some logic at play there.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 7:49 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Todd wrote:
Was this the first time a driver was told to slow down 3.4 seconds a lap to keep from passing his teammate? Bottas should have at least received a warning from race control for brake checking Albon.


This situation was embarrassing and considering Mercedes were fighting over 4th to 6th here with only a small difference in points either way and Hamilton being miles ahead in the WDC, it was unnecessary to give Bottas this order to make him feel even more like a number 2. I mean we all know that he is their number 2, but that doesn't mean that every situation in every race needs to have the number 1 driver get preferential treatment to the detriment of the number 2 driver, or 'wingman' in this case.

By doing what they did Mercedes ensured 4th and 5th rather than 4th and 6th, isn't this what's getting a pass for what Ferrari did which cost Leclerc the win?

Nominally it's Bottas that got protected from finishing 6th behind Albon by being allowed to pit before Hamilton.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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