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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:11 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?


Well RB seems to have passed Ferrari among the top three teams. I will need more convincing to decide that RB is better than Merc.

Mercedes is certainly the best car on the grid. But I don't think it's the strongest car in any one area. The Ferrari is clearly faster on the straights, but the Merc is faster on the corners. The Red Bull is probably a shade faster around the aero dependent parts of the circuit, possibly with high peak power but not so good drivability. Overall, the Merc beats the both the Ferrari and Red Bull as the best all around package - but if they were listed as top trumps cards rating each area I'm not convinced that Mercedes would ourright top any category (I can see them matching top for some).

Austria and Hungary are both circuits that play to the Red Bull strengths. I'm not saying that means that Red Bull is clearly the fastest car at either, I believe it was on race day at Austria, here due to Merc being hobbled by the temperatures. At Hungary I don't want to call it between the Merc or the Red Bull, both cars have been fast all weekend, but I would lean to Merc have a narrow margin today given that Bottas ran Max so close and Hamilton appeared to fluff his first sector.

I am not sure we have witnessed a changing of the guard yet. For starters, that's not like flicking a switch. Secondly, there is a reason the WDC requires a whole season of races and not just 3, momentum is with Max at the moment, he's driving well and getting results - but let's not forget, it's taken him a while to get his first pole position despite categorically having the car to do so in some of the race weekends he competed at. Some times I think that F1 fans have the memories of goldfish. Yes if Max wins tomorrow he'll have won 3 of the last 4 races and that is a tremendous achievement. But it's a championship fight and it's still less than half of what Lewis has won this season. People may say "But Hamilton was in the all conquering Merc" but that "all conquering Merc" narrative was because it won the first 8 races. With the same shallow analysis we could say Max is driving the "dominating Red Bull of the last 4 races" - (which would be an equally incorrect assessment)

To be clear, I do think that Max is overall, so far, the driver who has delivered the best this season. That's largely on account of the fact it's been pretty much equal up until Germany - so it's not like he's been 9.9/10 and Hamilton has been 7/10. They are still very close and it could easily swing back to being equal by the end of tomorrow (or swing more towards Max or remain where it is)

Ultimately Max is going to be Hamilton's successor in F1, much in the way Schumacher was to Senna - but I would hope for the interest in the sport that that is over the period of a few seasons and not just a passing of the baton. I won't say any more on this as it is the qualifying thread, and for anyone who wants to have an actual analytical discussion on the matter - rather than just present fuzzy data and present subjective opinion pieces as hard empirical data - I take it to an appropriate thread.

But bring it back specifically to qualifying. Max did a good job, but his lap wasn't a miracle drive. It was where the level the car was capable of. It's not like Bottas or Hamilton stuck in really shabby laps or made huge errors. The star of qualifying for me was George Russel. Seein a Williams at 14th on merit at one point in Q3 was one of the best moments of the season (and not just because I'm originally from King's Lynn...)



Supposedly Lewis didn’t have his drs open at some point in the lap. Don’t think it cost him pole though.
What is eye opening for me was that the Redbull was just as fast as the merc in the first sector, which is where straight line speed counts for the most. I’d say that before Austria that Merc was the clear best car in the corners but Redbull has once again closed the gap and I believe they are on par now if not slightly ahead in that department.

I still believe the merc is the best car and today was just an example of Hamilton underperforming but Redbull is much closer than before and I do anticipate them to surpass merc at some point.

Ferrari is now third best imo. They will have their moments at Spa and Monza probably because they are still the benchmark for straight line speed but i don’t see them ahead of Redbull and Merc at any of the remaining circuits.

Hamilton had a DRS fault?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:17 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Great lap from Max and I will be interested to see the race tomorrow. He will have open track in front of him and I want to see what kind of pace he and the Red Bull can show on Sunday. If Valteri maintains second place, I think Max can pull away but I'm hoping for Hamilton to get by Valteri so that he and Max can have a proper go.

Red Bull are right there again. They can compete with Mercedes and Ferrari but Hungary is always a track where that has been the case. I will be interested to see how they do at Spa. If they are competitive there then the second half of the season might be very interesting indeed.

I'm wondering if that's the scenario and Bottas is holding up Hamilton whilst Max gets away, that Mercedes might issue team orders against Bottas, at the end of the day Mercedes are all about winning the race.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:24 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?


Well RB seems to have passed Ferrari among the top three teams. I will need more convincing to decide that RB is better than Merc.

Well I was thinking both car and driver.

It's a strong patch of 3-4 races but I don't see anything worthy of being described as a changing of the guard. If Max and RBR can win on a faster circuit like Spa or Monza then you'll have your headline. Them being competitive in Hungary is pretty much to be expected. They will be competitive in Singapore too and definitely in Mexico but we already know that. Until they start winning at tracks that are not conventionally suited to them, nothing substantial has really changed IMO.

If Max wins tomorrow then that's 3 wins in 4 races and on merit as well, that's quite a big change to what we have seen in the recent past from Red Bull, I would say there is a momentum building.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:24 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Great lap from Max and I will be interested to see the race tomorrow. He will have open track in front of him and I want to see what kind of pace he and the Red Bull can show on Sunday. If Valteri maintains second place, I think Max can pull away but I'm hoping for Hamilton to get by Valteri so that he and Max can have a proper go.

Red Bull are right there again. They can compete with Mercedes and Ferrari but Hungary is always a track where that has been the case. I will be interested to see how they do at Spa. If they are competitive there then the second half of the season might be very interesting indeed.

I'm wondering if that's the scenario and Bottas is holding up Hamilton whilst Max gets away, that Mercedes might issue team orders against Bottas, at the end of the day Mercedes are all about winning the race.


I think you will find the poll side of the track is grippier, there is plenty of distance to turn 1, if Hamilton starts OK he should pass Bottas.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:27 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Great lap from Max and I will be interested to see the race tomorrow. He will have open track in front of him and I want to see what kind of pace he and the Red Bull can show on Sunday. If Valteri maintains second place, I think Max can pull away but I'm hoping for Hamilton to get by Valteri so that he and Max can have a proper go.

Red Bull are right there again. They can compete with Mercedes and Ferrari but Hungary is always a track where that has been the case. I will be interested to see how they do at Spa. If they are competitive there then the second half of the season might be very interesting indeed.

I'm wondering if that's the scenario and Bottas is holding up Hamilton whilst Max gets away, that Mercedes might issue team orders against Bottas, at the end of the day Mercedes are all about winning the race.


I think you will find the poll side of the track is grippier, there is plenty of distance to turn 1, if Hamilton starts OK he should pass Bottas.

Here's hoping then, where's the crossed fingers smilie? :)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:29 pm 
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Hamilton didn't have DRS open when he ended his lap at the start finish line, not sure about the rest of his lap.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:57 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Hamilton didn't have DRS open when he ended his lap at the start finish line, not sure about the rest of his lap.


Merc tweeted saying it was being used earlier in the lap.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 8:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?


Well RB seems to have passed Ferrari among the top three teams. I will need more convincing to decide that RB is better than Merc.

Mercedes is certainly the best car on the grid. But I don't think it's the strongest car in any one area. The Ferrari is clearly faster on the straights, but the Merc is faster on the corners. The Red Bull is probably a shade faster around the aero dependent parts of the circuit, possibly with high peak power but not so good drivability. Overall, the Merc beats the both the Ferrari and Red Bull as the best all around package - but if they were listed as top trumps cards rating each area I'm not convinced that Mercedes would ourright top any category (I can see them matching top for some).

Austria and Hungary are both circuits that play to the Red Bull strengths. I'm not saying that means that Red Bull is clearly the fastest car at either, I believe it was on race day at Austria, here due to Merc being hobbled by the temperatures. At Hungary I don't want to call it between the Merc or the Red Bull, both cars have been fast all weekend, but I would lean to Merc have a narrow margin today given that Bottas ran Max so close and Hamilton appeared to fluff his first sector.

I am not sure we have witnessed a changing of the guard yet. For starters, that's not like flicking a switch. Secondly, there is a reason the WDC requires a whole season of races and not just 3, momentum is with Max at the moment, he's driving well and getting results - but let's not forget, it's taken him a while to get his first pole position despite categorically having the car to do so in some of the race weekends he competed at. Some times I think that F1 fans have the memories of goldfish. Yes if Max wins tomorrow he'll have won 3 of the last 4 races and that is a tremendous achievement. But it's a championship fight and it's still less than half of what Lewis has won this season. People may say "But Hamilton was in the all conquering Merc" but that "all conquering Merc" narrative was because it won the first 8 races. With the same shallow analysis we could say Max is driving the "dominating Red Bull of the last 4 races" - (which would be an equally incorrect assessment)

To be clear, I do think that Max is overall, so far, the driver who has delivered the best this season. That's largely on account of the fact it's been pretty much equal up until Germany - so it's not like he's been 9.9/10 and Hamilton has been 7/10. They are still very close and it could easily swing back to being equal by the end of tomorrow (or swing more towards Max or remain where it is)

Ultimately Max is going to be Hamilton's successor in F1, much in the way Schumacher was to Senna - but I would hope for the interest in the sport that that is over the period of a few seasons and not just a passing of the baton. I won't say any more on this as it is the qualifying thread, and for anyone who wants to have an actual analytical discussion on the matter - rather than just present fuzzy data and present subjective opinion pieces as hard empirical data - I take it to an appropriate thread.

But bring it back specifically to qualifying. Max did a good job, but his lap wasn't a miracle drive. It was where the level the car was capable of. It's not like Bottas or Hamilton stuck in really shabby laps or made huge errors. The star of qualifying for me was George Russel. Seein a Williams at 14th on merit at one point in Q3 was one of the best moments of the season (and not just because I'm originally from King's Lynn...)



Supposedly Lewis didn’t have his drs open at some point in the lap. Don’t think it cost him pole though.
What is eye opening for me was that the Redbull was just as fast as the merc in the first sector, which is where straight line speed counts for the most. I’d say that before Austria that Merc was the clear best car in the corners but Redbull has once again closed the gap and I believe they are on par now if not slightly ahead in that department.

I still believe the merc is the best car and today was just an example of Hamilton underperforming but Redbull is much closer than before and I do anticipate them to surpass merc at some point.

Ferrari is now third best imo. They will have their moments at Spa and Monza probably because they are still the benchmark for straight line speed but i don’t see them ahead of Redbull and Merc at any of the remaining circuits.

Hamilton had a DRS fault?


Yeah he apparently hit the button too early and it didn't activate on the run out to the finsih line.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Great lap from Max and I will be interested to see the race tomorrow. He will have open track in front of him and I want to see what kind of pace he and the Red Bull can show on Sunday. If Valteri maintains second place, I think Max can pull away but I'm hoping for Hamilton to get by Valteri so that he and Max can have a proper go.

Red Bull are right there again. They can compete with Mercedes and Ferrari but Hungary is always a track where that has been the case. I will be interested to see how they do at Spa. If they are competitive there then the second half of the season might be very interesting indeed.

I'm wondering if that's the scenario and Bottas is holding up Hamilton whilst Max gets away, that Mercedes might issue team orders against Bottas, at the end of the day Mercedes are all about winning the race.

Mercedes haven't been hesitant about issuing team orders over the last couple years, I see no reason to assume that has changed.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 12:10 am 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?


Well RB seems to have passed Ferrari among the top three teams. I will need more convincing to decide that RB is better than Merc.

Well I was thinking both car and driver.

It's a strong patch of 3-4 races but I don't see anything worthy of being described as a changing of the guard. If Max and RBR can win on a faster circuit like Spa or Monza then you'll have your headline. Them being competitive in Hungary is pretty much to be expected. They will be competitive in Singapore too and definitely in Mexico but we already know that. Until they start winning at tracks that are not conventionally suited to them, nothing substantial has really changed IMO.

If Max wins tomorrow then that's 3 wins in 4 races and on merit as well, that's quite a big change to what we have seen in the recent past from Red Bull, I would say there is a momentum building.


This would be the best possible scenario for F1 at the halfway point, regardless of who you cheer for. A dominant Max would be so much fun to watch.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:32 am 
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It should have been Mercedes 1-2 but Max did amazing job and deserved P1. Gasly though again did a average job. More than 0.8secs off his teammate. Unless Gasly has an amazing second half I think he is out already. IMO both Hamilton and Vettel are doing poor job in qualifying this year.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:10 am 
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TheBlackFlag wrote:
pokerman wrote:
If Max wins tomorrow then that's 3 wins in 4 races and on merit as well, that's quite a big change to what we have seen in the recent past from Red Bull, I would say there is a momentum building.

This would be the best possible scenario for F1 at the halfway point, regardless of who you cheer for. A dominant Max would be so much fun to watch.

No, a dominant Max would be just as boring as a dominant Lewis. People only love the idea now because he's the underdog.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:38 am 
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If Hamilton tried to activate the DRS before the activation line (by mistake), does this bar him from activating DRS in that zone again? If he were to activate DRS say after a second of coming into the DRS zone, it would still activate? Can anyone shed a light on this?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:45 am 
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If the DRS on a car fails during qualifying are the team able to get it fixed before the race or does the car have to start without it?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:52 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
If Hamilton tried to activate the DRS before the activation line (by mistake), does this bar him from activating DRS in that zone again? If he were to activate DRS say after a second of coming into the DRS zone, it would still activate? Can anyone shed a light on this?


I am not sure if all teams use this system but I have heard that at least one team uses a system where if you hold the button in approaching the actitvation zone it will open as soon as it is allowed to.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:53 am 
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Mercedes in no mans land, 2nd best everywhere but still nearly best overall.

Bottas nearly got pole by having 1 out of 20 best mini sectors.

Image

FIA


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:14 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Mercedes in no mans land, 2nd best everywhere but still nearly best overall.

Bottas nearly got pole by having 1 out of 20 best mini sectors.

Image

FIA

This supports my theory about Mercedes having a car that isn't outright strongest in any area, but just a very close second to Ferrari/Red Bull in the areas where they are strongest.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:17 am 
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Yes, I think it does more than support it, confirms it at least at this track.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:30 am 
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My favourite thing about that graphic is the random mini sector where Grosjean is fastest :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:33 am 
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JN23 wrote:
My favourite thing about that graphic is the random mini sector where Grosjean is fastest :lol:


Yep brilliantly up with the best in the world! :nod: :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:45 am 
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JN23 wrote:
My favourite thing about that graphic is the random mini sector where Grosjean is fastest :lol:

He has always been good in that corner ;)


https://youtu.be/FmZ9oKXXHHQ


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:53 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Mercedes in no mans land, 2nd best everywhere but still nearly best overall.

Bottas nearly got pole by having 1 out of 20 best mini sectors.

Image

FIA

That is a fascinating graphic. Amazing to see the amount of red on there given how far away the Ferraris are in overall lap time. It also suggests that the Red Bull, rather than the Mercedes, is king of the slow corners.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:30 am 
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j man wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Mercedes in no mans land, 2nd best everywhere but still nearly best overall.

Bottas nearly got pole by having 1 out of 20 best mini sectors.

Image

FIA

That is a fascinating graphic. Amazing to see the amount of red on there given how far away the Ferraris are in overall lap time. It also suggests that the Red Bull, rather than the Mercedes, is king of the slow corners.


And Grosjean in the Haas is the king of the high speed corner 8O

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:41 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
j man wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Mercedes in no mans land, 2nd best everywhere but still nearly best overall.

Bottas nearly got pole by having 1 out of 20 best mini sectors.

Image

FIA

That is a fascinating graphic. Amazing to see the amount of red on there given how far away the Ferraris are in overall lap time. It also suggests that the Red Bull, rather than the Mercedes, is king of the slow corners.


And Grosjean in the Haas is the king of the high speed corner 8O

I get the feeling he got the fastest sector through there by going way too fast and messing up the following corner!

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:45 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
j man wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Mercedes in no mans land, 2nd best everywhere but still nearly best overall.

Bottas nearly got pole by having 1 out of 20 best mini sectors.

Image

FIA

That is a fascinating graphic. Amazing to see the amount of red on there given how far away the Ferraris are in overall lap time. It also suggests that the Red Bull, rather than the Mercedes, is king of the slow corners.


And Grosjean in the Haas is the king of the high speed corner 8O

I get the feeling he got the fastest sector through there by going way too fast and messing up the following corner!


Yeah that'd make sense though still, he was officially the fastest man through turn 4 in quali & that cannot be disputed.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 3:34 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Yeah that'd make sense though still, he was officially the fastest man through turn 4 in quali & that cannot be disputed.

Hah! That's where you're wrong, buster! That's actually turn 5, not turn 4! :twisted:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:23 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Yeah that'd make sense though still, he was officially the fastest man through turn 4 in quali & that cannot be disputed.

Hah! That's where you're wrong, buster! That's actually turn 5, not turn 4! :twisted:


I see a 4

Image
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/91/Hungaroring.svg/260px-Hungaroring.svg.png


I see a 6

Image
https://www.rajamakiracing.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Circuit_Hungaroring.png


I see no 5

(Well you could argue, going off the last map, that Grosjean was fastest through both 5 & 6 I suppose).

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 5:33 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Image
https://www.rajamakiracing.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Circuit_Hungaroring.png


I see no 5

(Well you could argue, going off the last map, that Grosjean was fastest through both 5 & 6 I suppose).

Wow, they count that little thing as turn 5? I was kinda trolling, but whoever made that map trolled us all. That's not a turn! :lol:

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