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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:03 pm 
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Yessss!
Finally!


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:03 pm 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Todd wrote:
LeClerc really needs to deliver on his promise one of these days.


Really?

His 2nd year in F1, same age as Verstappen, he's got 2 poles already, has been close to 2 wins & has got the raw deal on a couple of strategy calls on more than 1 occasion.

Not a bad start to a career.

Al of this is true and he does have 5 podiums this year including 4 in the last 5 races. Still, a driver needs to have delivered some results. A bunch of near misses don't signify greatness to anyone.


I would say Leclerc has been a top three driver so far this season with Hamilton and Verstappen. Results are misleading.


The same thing can be said about Jean Alesi's whole career. You don't want to end up with people saying that you were better than your results indicate.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:04 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Todd wrote:
LeClerc really needs to deliver on his promise one of these days.


Really?

His 2nd year in F1, same age as Verstappen, he's got 2 poles already, has been close to 2 wins & has got the raw deal on a couple of strategy calls on more than 1 occasion.

Not a bad start to a career.

Al of this is true and he does have 5 podiums this year including 4 in the last 5 races. Still, a driver needs to have delivered some results. A bunch of near misses don't signify greatness to anyone.


... and once again quicker than Vettel - despite his Q1-crash.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:04 pm 
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Congrats to Max. The era of the Redbull Honda has begun.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:05 pm 
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Good Job Max! I thought he might grab youngest pole sitter, but that is still Sebastian. Bottas was a hair from stealing that pole, also a great lap. Ferrari chasing speed as usual, but luckily no points for Saturday.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:05 pm 
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i Would love to see verstappen's reaction if Bottas had been 0.019 seconds faster :D Everything will have been wrong with his car if that happened.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:07 pm 
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Mayox wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Is today the day? The long awaited Verstappen pole?


Yes!

Finally!

The on-form driver takes another stride forward

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:08 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
i Would love to see verstappen's reaction if Bottas had been 0.019 seconds faster :D Everything will have been wrong with his car if that happened.


x(


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:08 pm 
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Max, Norris and Russel, drivers of the day.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:08 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Good Job Max! I thought he might grab youngest pole sitter, but that is still Sebastian. Bottas was a hair from stealing that pole, also a great lap. Ferrari chasing speed as usual, but luckily no points for Saturday.

Where did Bottas pull that time from? Everything conspired against him this weekend and was consistently behind Hamilton throughout practice. That was a very impressive Q3

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:12 pm 
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Verstappen pulled a lap 9 tenths quicker than his teammate to take pole by 18 thousands of a second against Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:13 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Verstappen pulled a lap 9 tenths quicker than his teammate to take pole by 18 thousands of a second against Mercedes.


He squeezed that pole.
It needed the best of him.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:14 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Congrats to Max. The era of the Redbull Honda has begun.


And we all know what happened to the Red Bull Renault era after RIC scored some poles...

I think it's track specific

Congrats to Max, well deserved.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:15 pm 
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I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:16 pm 
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So after 1/2 a decade in the sport & almost 100 races, Verstappen finally gets his 1st pole position.

He must be relieved to get that monkey off his back.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:17 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
i Would love to see verstappen's reaction if Bottas had been 0.019 seconds faster :D Everything will have been wrong with his car if that happened.

:lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?

It sure feels like it

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:17 pm 
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purchville wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Congrats to Max. The era of the Redbull Honda has begun.


And we all know what happened to the Red Bull Renault era after RIC scored some poles...

I think it's track specific

Congrats to Max, well deserved.


The Red Bull Renault era resulted in four WDCs.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:18 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?


I sure hope so.

I've been a Hamilton fan from 2007, I didn't even believe he would get this amount of succes, now I hink he's had enough, someone else needs to be up there. Though Ham may still win this WDC.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:19 pm 
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Merc engine advantage has gone or the targeting of downforce is starting to cost them and can see the rest of the season being a dog fight for them.Most of time is being given away in first sector here ,at Monza and Spa for example they are going to lose masses of time on the straights.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:20 pm 
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purchville wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Congrats to Max. The era of the Redbull Honda has begun.


And we all know what happened to the Red Bull Renault era after RIC scored some poles...

I think it's track specific

Congrats to Max, well deserved.


Nah...this feels different to me. The Redbull Honda does not break down and they have been on an upward trajectory for a while now. It is inevitable that they will be on top eventually and I think we are just starting to witness it. They have possibly the fastest man in F1 and the best aero designer, the power units getting closer to each other and it's a wrap.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:24 pm 
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Qualy done:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?


Well RB seems to have passed Ferrari among the top three teams. I will need more convincing to decide that RB is better than Merc.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?

I think Verstappen’s been the fastest driver in F1 as early as 2017.

In 2019 I think that he is not only the fastest driver, but also the outright best.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 3:57 pm 
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The Short Tale of Max and Pierre

"It was the best of times... it was the worst of times..."


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:02 pm 
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:07 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?


Well RB seems to have passed Ferrari among the top three teams. I will need more convincing to decide that RB is better than Merc.

Red Bull are certainly ahead operationally. But I'm not convinced they're ahead on pure performance. Ferrari were on course for pole just last week until they had their troubles in qualy

Hungary suits the Red Bull better. But on balance I think Ferrari still have the pace advantage overall

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:20 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?


Well RB seems to have passed Ferrari among the top three teams. I will need more convincing to decide that RB is better than Merc.

Mercedes is certainly the best car on the grid. But I don't think it's the strongest car in any one area. The Ferrari is clearly faster on the straights, but the Merc is faster on the corners. The Red Bull is probably a shade faster around the aero dependent parts of the circuit, possibly with high peak power but not so good drivability. Overall, the Merc beats the both the Ferrari and Red Bull as the best all around package - but if they were listed as top trumps cards rating each area I'm not convinced that Mercedes would ourright top any category (I can see them matching top for some).

Austria and Hungary are both circuits that play to the Red Bull strengths. I'm not saying that means that Red Bull is clearly the fastest car at either, I believe it was on race day at Austria, here due to Merc being hobbled by the temperatures. At Hungary I don't want to call it between the Merc or the Red Bull, both cars have been fast all weekend, but I would lean to Merc have a narrow margin today given that Bottas ran Max so close and Hamilton appeared to fluff his first sector.

I am not sure we have witnessed a changing of the guard yet. For starters, that's not like flicking a switch. Secondly, there is a reason the WDC requires a whole season of races and not just 3, momentum is with Max at the moment, he's driving well and getting results - but let's not forget, it's taken him a while to get his first pole position despite categorically having the car to do so in some of the race weekends he competed at. Some times I think that F1 fans have the memories of goldfish. Yes if Max wins tomorrow he'll have won 3 of the last 4 races and that is a tremendous achievement. But it's a championship fight and it's still less than half of what Lewis has won this season. People may say "But Hamilton was in the all conquering Merc" but that "all conquering Merc" narrative was because it won the first 8 races. With the same shallow analysis we could say Max is driving the "dominating Red Bull of the last 4 races" - (which would be an equally incorrect assessment)

To be clear, I do think that Max is overall, so far, the driver who has delivered the best this season. That's largely on account of the fact it's been pretty much equal up until Germany - so it's not like he's been 9.9/10 and Hamilton has been 7/10. They are still very close and it could easily swing back to being equal by the end of tomorrow (or swing more towards Max or remain where it is)

Ultimately Max is going to be Hamilton's successor in F1, much in the way Schumacher was to Senna - but I would hope for the interest in the sport that that is over the period of a few seasons and not just a passing of the baton. I won't say any more on this as it is the qualifying thread, and for anyone who wants to have an actual analytical discussion on the matter - rather than just present fuzzy data and present subjective opinion pieces as hard empirical data - I take it to an appropriate thread.

But bring it back specifically to qualifying. Max did a good job, but his lap wasn't a miracle drive. It was where the level the car was capable of. It's not like Bottas or Hamilton stuck in really shabby laps or made huge errors. The star of qualifying for me was George Russel. Seein a Williams at 14th on merit at one point in Q3 was one of the best moments of the season (and not just because I'm originally from King's Lynn...)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 4:55 pm 
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Anyone else surprised not to see Merc the comfortably quickest car here? Didn't expect anyone to be within a couple of tenths of them.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:00 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Anyone else surprised not to see Merc the comfortably quickest car here? Didn't expect anyone to be within a couple of tenths of them.


TBH, I was expecting Verstappen in the top 2. I've lost all hope when it comes to Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:03 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?


Well RB seems to have passed Ferrari among the top three teams. I will need more convincing to decide that RB is better than Merc.

Mercedes is certainly the best car on the grid. But I don't think it's the strongest car in any one area. The Ferrari is clearly faster on the straights, but the Merc is faster on the corners. The Red Bull is probably a shade faster around the aero dependent parts of the circuit, possibly with high peak power but not so good drivability. Overall, the Merc beats the both the Ferrari and Red Bull as the best all around package - but if they were listed as top trumps cards rating each area I'm not convinced that Mercedes would ourright top any category (I can see them matching top for some).

Austria and Hungary are both circuits that play to the Red Bull strengths. I'm not saying that means that Red Bull is clearly the fastest car at either, I believe it was on race day at Austria, here due to Merc being hobbled by the temperatures. At Hungary I don't want to call it between the Merc or the Red Bull, both cars have been fast all weekend, but I would lean to Merc have a narrow margin today given that Bottas ran Max so close and Hamilton appeared to fluff his first sector.

I am not sure we have witnessed a changing of the guard yet. For starters, that's not like flicking a switch. Secondly, there is a reason the WDC requires a whole season of races and not just 3, momentum is with Max at the moment, he's driving well and getting results - but let's not forget, it's taken him a while to get his first pole position despite categorically having the car to do so in some of the race weekends he competed at. Some times I think that F1 fans have the memories of goldfish. Yes if Max wins tomorrow he'll have won 3 of the last 4 races and that is a tremendous achievement. But it's a championship fight and it's still less than half of what Lewis has won this season. People may say "But Hamilton was in the all conquering Merc" but that "all conquering Merc" narrative was because it won the first 8 races. With the same shallow analysis we could say Max is driving the "dominating Red Bull of the last 4 races" - (which would be an equally incorrect assessment)

To be clear, I do think that Max is overall, so far, the driver who has delivered the best this season. That's largely on account of the fact it's been pretty much equal up until Germany - so it's not like he's been 9.9/10 and Hamilton has been 7/10. They are still very close and it could easily swing back to being equal by the end of tomorrow (or swing more towards Max or remain where it is)

Ultimately Max is going to be Hamilton's successor in F1, much in the way Schumacher was to Senna - but I would hope for the interest in the sport that that is over the period of a few seasons and not just a passing of the baton. I won't say any more on this as it is the qualifying thread, and for anyone who wants to have an actual analytical discussion on the matter - rather than just present fuzzy data and present subjective opinion pieces as hard empirical data - I take it to an appropriate thread.

But bring it back specifically to qualifying. Max did a good job, but his lap wasn't a miracle drive. It was where the level the car was capable of. It's not like Bottas or Hamilton stuck in really shabby laps or made huge errors. The star of qualifying for me was George Russel. Seein a Williams at 14th on merit at one point in Q3 was one of the best moments of the season (and not just because I'm originally from King's Lynn...)



Supposedly Lewis didn’t have his drs open at some point in the lap. Don’t think it cost him pole though.
What is eye opening for me was that the Redbull was just as fast as the merc in the first sector, which is where straight line speed counts for the most. I’d say that before Austria that Merc was the clear best car in the corners but Redbull has once again closed the gap and I believe they are on par now if not slightly ahead in that department.

I still believe the merc is the best car and today was just an example of Hamilton underperforming but Redbull is much closer than before and I do anticipate them to surpass merc at some point.

Ferrari is now third best imo. They will have their moments at Spa and Monza probably because they are still the benchmark for straight line speed but i don’t see them ahead of Redbull and Merc at any of the remaining circuits.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:04 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?


Well RB seems to have passed Ferrari among the top three teams. I will need more convincing to decide that RB is better than Merc.

Red Bull are certainly ahead operationally. But I'm not convinced they're ahead on pure performance. Ferrari were on course for pole just last week until they had their troubles in qualy

Hungary suits the Red Bull better. But on balance I think Ferrari still have the pace advantage overall


Trap and Finish line speeds certainly show Ferrari as being the team that is quickest on the straights. They don't seem to be able to carry as much speed through slow and medium corners. :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:15 pm 
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Bacus wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?


I sure hope so.

I've been a Hamilton fan from 2007, I didn't even believe he would get this amount of succes, now I hink he's had enough, someone else needs to be up there. Though Ham may still win this WDC.

Well he's still in control, bag a podium, damage limitation.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:16 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Ultimately Max is going to be Hamilton's successor in F1, much in the way Schumacher was to Senna - but I would hope for the interest in the sport that that is over the period of a few seasons and not just a passing of the baton.


Very interesting post ATH, a couple of points though.

Isn't it just the hybrid baton being passed here we don't know which manufacturer will be quickest under the new rules.

Its all a bit dismissive of Ferrari and Leclerc, I cant see them taking a resurgent Red Bull lying down.


Alienturnedhuman wrote:
But bring it back specifically to qualifying. Max did a good job, but his lap wasn't a miracle drive. It was where the level the car was capable of. It's not like Bottas or Hamilton stuck in really shabby laps or made huge errors. The star of qualifying for me was George Russel. Seein a Williams at 14th on merit at one point in Q3 was one of the best moments of the season (and not just because I'm originally from King's Lynn...)


Agree that Russel was outstanding however, Lando Norris is not to be dismissed, I think he is as fast if not faster than all the younger guys. McLaren are having a good season but they are still only the 4th fastest car. Stick him in a quick car and I think you will see him right at the very top.

Plus you can say what you will Hamilton is going nowhere! He is always good second half of the season.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:17 pm 
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nabby81 wrote:
Merc engine advantage has gone or the targeting of downforce is starting to cost them and can see the rest of the season being a dog fight for them.Most of time is being given away in first sector here ,at Monza and Spa for example they are going to lose masses of time on the straights.

I have to wonder just how good this latest upgrade is, it's supposed to be a 3/4 tenths gain, I'm not seeing it, it was the best car before the upgrade, not so sure now?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:19 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?


Well RB seems to have passed Ferrari among the top three teams. I will need more convincing to decide that RB is better than Merc.

Well I was thinking both car and driver.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:19 pm 
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Great lap from Max and I will be interested to see the race tomorrow. He will have open track in front of him and I want to see what kind of pace he and the Red Bull can show on Sunday. If Valteri maintains second place, I think Max can pull away but I'm hoping for Hamilton to get by Valteri so that he and Max can have a proper go.

Red Bull are right there again. They can compete with Mercedes and Ferrari but Hungary is always a track where that has been the case. I will be interested to see how they do at Spa. If they are competitive there then the second half of the season might be very interesting indeed.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
nabby81 wrote:
Merc engine advantage has gone or the targeting of downforce is starting to cost them and can see the rest of the season being a dog fight for them.Most of time is being given away in first sector here ,at Monza and Spa for example they are going to lose masses of time on the straights.

I have to wonder just how good this latest upgrade is, it's supposed to be a 3/4 tenths gain, I'm not seeing it, it was the best car before the upgrade, not so sure now?


I read 5 tenths somewhere and that they didn't get the most out of it in Germany. Unless Red Bull have had a monster upgrade(s) over the last few races then I would say this upgrade hasn't done much for Merc yet.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 5:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I believe we are witnessing a changing of the guard?


Well RB seems to have passed Ferrari among the top three teams. I will need more convincing to decide that RB is better than Merc.

Well I was thinking both car and driver.

It's a strong patch of 3-4 races but I don't see anything worthy of being described as a changing of the guard. If Max and RBR can win on a faster circuit like Spa or Monza then you'll have your headline. Them being competitive in Hungary is pretty much to be expected. They will be competitive in Singapore too and definitely in Mexico but we already know that. Until they start winning at tracks that are not conventionally suited to them, nothing substantial has really changed IMO.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2019 6:10 pm 
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