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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:34 pm 
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So, Bottas couldn't come 2nd in the 2017 WDC, with Seb managing to beat him.

Then in 2018 despite all of Seb's and Ferrari's mistakes last season they beat Bottas, as did Kimi and Max.

Then this season, you would expect Max to come 2nd in the WDC ahead of Bottas given the form Max is in, and Valtteri again looks like a broken man.

That means that Bottas is unable to come 2nd in the WDC despite supposedly having the best car, yet Lewis is winning comfortably; demonstrating more consistency, speed and racecraft than his teammate. To me the implication is that if Lewis wasn't there, then Mercedes would not be winning any of the last few championships, (2017 to 2019).

It reminds me of Webber in the 2009 to 2013 period where Red Bull had some great cars, (particularly 2011 and 2013), but he couldn't ever come 2nd in the WDC. So Red Bull needed Seb back then to win the titles as Webber came 4th, 3rd, 3rd, 6th and 3rd in the WDC with supposedly the best equipment during that period. He was always beaten by at least one other driver from another team, just like Bottas seems to now.

As of Hungary 2019, Lewis has scored 1021 points since the start of 2017. Bottas over the same period has 742 points and he is not exactly a complete slouch, just like Webber wasn't; they were both reasonably solid drivers. But that is still a 38% increase in points return from Lewis, and it shows to me that drivers still are a big factor in modern F1 and a top driver is worth their weight in gold. If Mercedes only had average drivers in the car, they wouldn't win the championships it appears.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 3:51 pm 
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Short answer is a bit of both.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Short answer is a bit of both.


Of course, but the idea that Hamilton is winning these championships just because of his car are proving wide of the mark when his teammate isn't able to come a comfortable 2nd in the WDC in the same equipment.

Now granted, 2014 and 2015 were mostly because of his car, (as even Jos Verstappen would have won those titles if say Alex Yoong or Pedro Diniz were in the other Mercedes), but not his last three championships, they were down to the driver having a big contribution.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:08 pm 
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Well obviously two average drivers would struggle, it's not 2014-2016. But big teams don't tend to sign average drivers to lead the team so it would depend on who you're putting in there if Lewis isn't there I guess.

All we do know is Lewis did it and he did so relatively comfortably and I think there's a handful of drivers better than Bottas so wherever they fell in between Lewis and Bottas would still probably have been enough to sneak a title or two in those cars even based on Bottas's form and even if they didn't quite reach Lewis's level themselves.

The (near) handful I think are enough ahead of Bottas would be Alonso,Max,Seb and Dan. But short answer as mikey says it's always both that should get the credit.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:10 pm 
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You are going too far in the past. And in the past, Bottas was ordered to move for Hamilton, which might have affected his standings. Does it make a difference? Not big, but it's not black and white. Also, we know not is the support to both driver the same. There are a few unknown parameters which can shift a picture either side, not by far, but still.
Is Hamilton phenomenal driver? Without doubt.
Is Bottas phenomenal driver? We know not fur sure. He had glimpses of genuine racecraft, it surely comes out of somewhere, but why it does not comes always, I know not.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:28 pm 
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Bottas has had two really bad races that has coincided with Max having two really exceptional ones, and even then he already had enough of a lead that he's still just about 2nd. I wouldn't necessarily expect Bottas to continue losing out and not finish 2nd.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:32 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
You are going too far in the past. And in the past, Bottas was ordered to move for Hamilton, which might have affected his standings. Does it make a difference? Not big, but it's not black and white. Also, we know not is the support to both driver the same. There are a few unknown parameters which can shift a picture either side, not by far, but still.
Is Hamilton phenomenal driver? Without doubt.
Is Bottas phenomenal driver? We know not fur sure. He had glimpses of genuine racecraft, it surely comes out of somewhere, but why it does not comes always, I know not.


If he was quick enough over an entire season then Bottas wouldn't find himself in a position to be ordered out of the way.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:36 pm 
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I think that the 2017 Merc was equal to the Ferrari, but the 2018 Merc was the slower car up until the mid season break. After their challenge collapsed I think that Ferrari fell back towards Mercedes and were slower at the end of the season, but for the season average the Ferrari was the car to have and they bottled it.

When you are battling an equal team and you are the second best driver you can't be expected to challenge the lead driver of the competing team. In equal races you will be expected to get 3/4, in races your team is better you will get 2 and in races your team is worse you will get 4. That compares to 1/2, 1 and 3 for the lead driver of both teams.

This is one thing where having a team mate like Gasly benefits Max, even if it's bad for the team's constructor points. He never has to worry about fighting his team mate. If you think back to 2007, McLaren had Alonso and Hamilton who were equal so would be sharing the wins McLaren we best at. Ferrari with only Kimi as their WDC challenger meant he always got the big points when Ferrari were best. When you have a team mate in the WDC hunt and one of your opponents doesn't - they get an advantage for their WDC challenge.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:50 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I think that the 2017 Merc was equal to the Ferrari, but the 2018 Merc was the slower car up until the mid season break. After their challenge collapsed I think that Ferrari fell back towards Mercedes and were slower at the end of the season, but for the season average the Ferrari was the car to have and they bottled it.

When you are battling an equal team and you are the second best driver you can't be expected to challenge the lead driver of the competing team. In equal races you will be expected to get 3/4, in races your team is better you will get 2 and in races your team is worse you will get 4. That compares to 1/2, 1 and 3 for the lead driver of both teams.

This is one thing where having a team mate like Gasly benefits Max, even if it's bad for the team's constructor points. He never has to worry about fighting his team mate. If you think back to 2007, McLaren had Alonso and Hamilton who were equal so would be sharing the wins McLaren we best at. Ferrari with only Kimi as their WDC challenger meant he always got the big points when Ferrari were best. When you have a team mate in the WDC hunt and one of your opponents doesn't - they get an advantage for their WDC challenge.


Surely you could just as easily argue the other way round, in that when you have two quick drivers, you can get a 1-2 when your car is good, forcing the competing driver from the other team down into 3rd place and losing more points, but when the competing car is good you can still get a 2-3 as the lesser driver in the competing team is not able to beat you still. Look how close Alonso and Hamilton got to winning the 2007 WDC, both 1 point behind. If either had had a swapped result at some point in the season, then they would have been WDC that year so it was a freak of luck that they both finished equal on points and both 1 point behind Kimi. Play that season out multiple times and one of the McLaren drivers would have been WDC more often than Kimi would have.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:53 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I think that the 2017 Merc was equal to the Ferrari, but the 2018 Merc was the slower car up until the mid season break. After their challenge collapsed I think that Ferrari fell back towards Mercedes and were slower at the end of the season, but for the season average the Ferrari was the car to have and they bottled it.

When you are battling an equal team and you are the second best driver you can't be expected to challenge the lead driver of the competing team. In equal races you will be expected to get 3/4, in races your team is better you will get 2 and in races your team is worse you will get 4. That compares to 1/2, 1 and 3 for the lead driver of both teams.

This is one thing where having a team mate like Gasly benefits Max, even if it's bad for the team's constructor points. He never has to worry about fighting his team mate. If you think back to 2007, McLaren had Alonso and Hamilton who were equal so would be sharing the wins McLaren we best at. Ferrari with only Kimi as their WDC challenger meant he always got the big points when Ferrari were best. When you have a team mate in the WDC hunt and one of your opponents doesn't - they get an advantage for their WDC challenge.


Surely you could just as easily argue the other way round, in that when you have two quick drivers, you can get a 1-2 when your car is good, forcing the competing driver from the other team down into 3rd place and losing more points, but when the competing car is good you can still get a 2-3 as the lesser driver in the competing team is not able to beat you still. Look how close Alonso and Hamilton got to winning the 2007 WDC, both 1 point behind. If either had had a swapped result at some point in the season, then they would have been WDC that year so it was a freak of luck that they both finished equal on points and both 1 point behind Kimi. Play that season out multiple times and one of the McLaren drivers would have been WDC more often than Kimi would have.

Nonsense. The gap from 1st to 2nd is 7 points. The gap from 2nd to 3rd is 3 points.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:58 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I think that the 2017 Merc was equal to the Ferrari, but the 2018 Merc was the slower car up until the mid season break. After their challenge collapsed I think that Ferrari fell back towards Mercedes and were slower at the end of the season, but for the season average the Ferrari was the car to have and they bottled it.

When you are battling an equal team and you are the second best driver you can't be expected to challenge the lead driver of the competing team. In equal races you will be expected to get 3/4, in races your team is better you will get 2 and in races your team is worse you will get 4. That compares to 1/2, 1 and 3 for the lead driver of both teams.

This is one thing where having a team mate like Gasly benefits Max, even if it's bad for the team's constructor points. He never has to worry about fighting his team mate. If you think back to 2007, McLaren had Alonso and Hamilton who were equal so would be sharing the wins McLaren we best at. Ferrari with only Kimi as their WDC challenger meant he always got the big points when Ferrari were best. When you have a team mate in the WDC hunt and one of your opponents doesn't - they get an advantage for their WDC challenge.


Surely you could just as easily argue the other way round, in that when you have two quick drivers, you can get a 1-2 when your car is good, forcing the competing driver from the other team down into 3rd place and losing more points, but when the competing car is good you can still get a 2-3 as the lesser driver in the competing team is not able to beat you still. Look how close Alonso and Hamilton got to winning the 2007 WDC, both 1 point behind. If either had had a swapped result at some point in the season, then they would have been WDC that year so it was a freak of luck that they both finished equal on points and both 1 point behind Kimi. Play that season out multiple times and one of the McLaren drivers would have been WDC more often than Kimi would have.

Nonsense. The gap from 1st to 2nd is 7 points. The gap from 2nd to 3rd is 3 points.


You clean up in the WCC though, and give both your drivers every chance to fight for the WDC, (and it is unlikely that both your top drivers will be perfectly equal, one will be a bit better and grab more points than the other). If you do the other strategy, (having one strong driver and a weaker number two), you are sacrificing the WCC for sure and hoping you can steal the WDC.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:01 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I think that the 2017 Merc was equal to the Ferrari, but the 2018 Merc was the slower car up until the mid season break. After their challenge collapsed I think that Ferrari fell back towards Mercedes and were slower at the end of the season, but for the season average the Ferrari was the car to have and they bottled it.

When you are battling an equal team and you are the second best driver you can't be expected to challenge the lead driver of the competing team. In equal races you will be expected to get 3/4, in races your team is better you will get 2 and in races your team is worse you will get 4. That compares to 1/2, 1 and 3 for the lead driver of both teams.

This is one thing where having a team mate like Gasly benefits Max, even if it's bad for the team's constructor points. He never has to worry about fighting his team mate. If you think back to 2007, McLaren had Alonso and Hamilton who were equal so would be sharing the wins McLaren we best at. Ferrari with only Kimi as their WDC challenger meant he always got the big points when Ferrari were best. When you have a team mate in the WDC hunt and one of your opponents doesn't - they get an advantage for their WDC challenge.


Surely you could just as easily argue the other way round, in that when you have two quick drivers, you can get a 1-2 when your car is good, forcing the competing driver from the other team down into 3rd place and losing more points, but when the competing car is good you can still get a 2-3 as the lesser driver in the competing team is not able to beat you still. Look how close Alonso and Hamilton got to winning the 2007 WDC, both 1 point behind. If either had had a swapped result at some point in the season, then they would have been WDC that year so it was a freak of luck that they both finished equal on points and both 1 point behind Kimi. Play that season out multiple times and one of the McLaren drivers would have been WDC more often than Kimi would have.

Nonsense. The gap from 1st to 2nd is 7 points. The gap from 2nd to 3rd is 3 points.


You clean up in the WCC though, and give both your drivers every chance to fight for the WDC, (and it is unlikely that both your top drivers will be perfectly equal, one will be a bit better and grab more points than the other). If you do the other strategy, (having one strong driver and a weaker number two), you are sacrificing the WCC for sure and hoping you can steal the WDC.

That's exactly what I said. It's not good for the team, but advantageous for the driver. I wasn't advocating it as a sensible team policy, just explaining that it's unfair to say that driver didn't come second in the WDC winning car when it's a tight battle.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:01 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I think that the 2017 Merc was equal to the Ferrari, but the 2018 Merc was the slower car up until the mid season break. After their challenge collapsed I think that Ferrari fell back towards Mercedes and were slower at the end of the season, but for the season average the Ferrari was the car to have and they bottled it.

When you are battling an equal team and you are the second best driver you can't be expected to challenge the lead driver of the competing team. In equal races you will be expected to get 3/4, in races your team is better you will get 2 and in races your team is worse you will get 4. That compares to 1/2, 1 and 3 for the lead driver of both teams.

This is one thing where having a team mate like Gasly benefits Max, even if it's bad for the team's constructor points. He never has to worry about fighting his team mate. If you think back to 2007, McLaren had Alonso and Hamilton who were equal so would be sharing the wins McLaren we best at. Ferrari with only Kimi as their WDC challenger meant he always got the big points when Ferrari were best. When you have a team mate in the WDC hunt and one of your opponents doesn't - they get an advantage for their WDC challenge.


Surely you could just as easily argue the other way round, in that when you have two quick drivers, you can get a 1-2 when your car is good, forcing the competing driver from the other team down into 3rd place and losing more points, but when the competing car is good you can still get a 2-3 as the lesser driver in the competing team is not able to beat you still. Look how close Alonso and Hamilton got to winning the 2007 WDC, both 1 point behind. If either had had a swapped result at some point in the season, then they would have been WDC that year so it was a freak of luck that they both finished equal on points and both 1 point behind Kimi. Play that season out multiple times and one of the McLaren drivers would have been WDC more often than Kimi would have.

Nonsense. The gap from 1st to 2nd is 7 points. The gap from 2nd to 3rd is 3 points.


People always seem to forgot Massa and Kimi took points from one another in 2007 too.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:03 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I think that the 2017 Merc was equal to the Ferrari, but the 2018 Merc was the slower car up until the mid season break. After their challenge collapsed I think that Ferrari fell back towards Mercedes and were slower at the end of the season, but for the season average the Ferrari was the car to have and they bottled it.

When you are battling an equal team and you are the second best driver you can't be expected to challenge the lead driver of the competing team. In equal races you will be expected to get 3/4, in races your team is better you will get 2 and in races your team is worse you will get 4. That compares to 1/2, 1 and 3 for the lead driver of both teams.

This is one thing where having a team mate like Gasly benefits Max, even if it's bad for the team's constructor points. He never has to worry about fighting his team mate. If you think back to 2007, McLaren had Alonso and Hamilton who were equal so would be sharing the wins McLaren we best at. Ferrari with only Kimi as their WDC challenger meant he always got the big points when Ferrari were best. When you have a team mate in the WDC hunt and one of your opponents doesn't - they get an advantage for their WDC challenge.


Surely you could just as easily argue the other way round, in that when you have two quick drivers, you can get a 1-2 when your car is good, forcing the competing driver from the other team down into 3rd place and losing more points, but when the competing car is good you can still get a 2-3 as the lesser driver in the competing team is not able to beat you still. Look how close Alonso and Hamilton got to winning the 2007 WDC, both 1 point behind. If either had had a swapped result at some point in the season, then they would have been WDC that year so it was a freak of luck that they both finished equal on points and both 1 point behind Kimi. Play that season out multiple times and one of the McLaren drivers would have been WDC more often than Kimi would have.

Nonsense. The gap from 1st to 2nd is 7 points. The gap from 2nd to 3rd is 3 points.


People always seem to forgot Massa and Kimi took points from one another in 2007 too.

At the start of the season, but at the end of the season Ferrari backed Kimi while McLaren had two horses in the race (and FIA inspectors to ensure both drivers were given equal treatment)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:11 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

You clean up in the WCC though, and give both your drivers every chance to fight for the WDC, (and it is unlikely that both your top drivers will be perfectly equal, one will be a bit better and grab more points than the other). If you do the other strategy, (having one strong driver and a weaker number two), you are sacrificing the WCC for sure and hoping you can steal the WDC.

That's exactly what I said. It's not good for the team, but advantageous for the driver. I wasn't advocating it as a sensible team policy, just explaining that it's unfair to say that driver didn't come second in the WDC winning car when it's a tight battle.


So 2011, 2013, 2017, 2018 and 2019 count as close WDC battles? They weren't really that close, but the teammate of the driver that comfortably won the WDC, was not able to come 2nd in the WDC, showing that the domination wasn't purely car related and was also very heavily driver related.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 5:58 pm 
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It is definitely the car since 2014 it is class of the field by far. Bottas has been having too many bad races sadly and is not able to take advantage when matter the most. If Bottas can't finish P2 then he is definitely out next year. May be the decision has been already made according to Rosberg x(

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:23 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
That means that Bottas is unable to come 2nd in the WDC despite supposedly having the best car, yet Lewis is winning comfortably; demonstrating more consistency, speed and racecraft than his teammate. To me the implication is that if Lewis wasn't there, then Mercedes would not be winning any of the last few championships, (2017 to 2019).


The only thing one can state is that Bottas is not delivering to his full potential. To assume that without Hamilton Mercedes would not finish with titles is an assumption with no basis for speculation.

It is the car, the car is 95% in determining the outcome. Without the Mercedes Hamilton would not win the WDC, and any of the top 5 Formula One drivers would have won the WDC in a Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:30 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
That means that Bottas is unable to come 2nd in the WDC despite supposedly having the best car, yet Lewis is winning comfortably; demonstrating more consistency, speed and racecraft than his teammate. To me the implication is that if Lewis wasn't there, then Mercedes would not be winning any of the last few championships, (2017 to 2019).


The only thing one can state is that Bottas is not delivering to his full potential. To assume that without Hamilton Mercedes would not finish with titles is an assumption with no basis for speculation.

It is the car, the car is 95% in determining the outcome. Without the Mercedes Hamilton would not win the WDC, and any of the top 5 Formula One drivers would have won the WDC in a Mercedes.


Which year? Most would in 2014-16, maybe 5 in 2017 but I think only a few in 2018. This year the only way the Merc is winning consistently is with and elite driver. if we had two Bottas level drivers in the Merc would we call it a dominant car? I think probably not. Drivers can make a massive difference in how a car is perceived. Imagine to Gasly level drivers in a Red Bull.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:31 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
That means that Bottas is unable to come 2nd in the WDC despite supposedly having the best car, yet Lewis is winning comfortably; demonstrating more consistency, speed and racecraft than his teammate. To me the implication is that if Lewis wasn't there, then Mercedes would not be winning any of the last few championships, (2017 to 2019).


The only thing one can state is that Bottas is not delivering to his full potential. To assume that without Hamilton Mercedes would not finish with titles is an assumption with no basis for speculation.

It is the car, the car is 95% in determining the outcome. Without the Mercedes Hamilton would not win the WDC, and any of the top 5 Formula One drivers would have won the WDC in a Mercedes.


And how many people would you have in front of Bottas in your top 5 then? Lewis, Max, Vettel with his mistakes, Leclerc at a push with all the mistakes too.... after that it gets a bit tight. Ricciardo hasn't set the world alight against Hulkenberg, and after that you're going to have a hard time arguing anyone else in F1 right now is genuinely better.

The idea that it's all the car still is also demonstrably wrong.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:50 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
That means that Bottas is unable to come 2nd in the WDC despite supposedly having the best car, yet Lewis is winning comfortably; demonstrating more consistency, speed and racecraft than his teammate. To me the implication is that if Lewis wasn't there, then Mercedes would not be winning any of the last few championships, (2017 to 2019).


The only thing one can state is that Bottas is not delivering to his full potential. To assume that without Hamilton Mercedes would not finish with titles is an assumption with no basis for speculation.

It is the car, the car is 95% in determining the outcome. Without the Mercedes Hamilton would not win the WDC, and any of the top 5 Formula One drivers would have won the WDC in a Mercedes.


And how many people would you have in front of Bottas in your top 5 then? Lewis, Max, Vettel with his mistakes, Leclerc at a push with all the mistakes too.... after that it gets a bit tight. Ricciardo hasn't set the world alight against Hulkenberg, and after that you're going to have a hard time arguing anyone else in F1 right now is genuinely better.

The idea that it's all the car still is also demonstrably wrong.


Yeah, plus Bottas looked pretty solid against Massa over many years and deserving of his chance in a top team and now he is being shown up to be out of his depth.

Not only that but Kimi is back to looking pretty handy again back in the midfield, even though he was embarrassed by Seb and Alonso from 2014 to 2018 and people were saying he needs to retire.

So these top drivers are quite a bit better than the midfield guys and are bringing a lot of their own personal value to each WDC and WCC challenge in my opinion; i.e. Formula One is still thankfully very heavily driver performance related and not 95% down to the car.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:01 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
That means that Bottas is unable to come 2nd in the WDC despite supposedly having the best car, yet Lewis is winning comfortably; demonstrating more consistency, speed and racecraft than his teammate. To me the implication is that if Lewis wasn't there, then Mercedes would not be winning any of the last few championships, (2017 to 2019).


The only thing one can state is that Bottas is not delivering to his full potential. To assume that without Hamilton Mercedes would not finish with titles is an assumption with no basis for speculation.

It is the car, the car is 95% in determining the outcome. Without the Mercedes Hamilton would not win the WDC, and any of the top 5 Formula One drivers would have won the WDC in a Mercedes.


Given the number of race wins and top results that Vettel threw away, I am not so sure (unless you do not count him in the top 5).


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:14 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I think that the 2017 Merc was equal to the Ferrari, but the 2018 Merc was the slower car up until the mid season break. After their challenge collapsed I think that Ferrari fell back towards Mercedes and were slower at the end of the season, but for the season average the Ferrari was the car to have and they bottled it.

When you are battling an equal team and you are the second best driver you can't be expected to challenge the lead driver of the competing team. In equal races you will be expected to get 3/4, in races your team is better you will get 2 and in races your team is worse you will get 4. That compares to 1/2, 1 and 3 for the lead driver of both teams.

This is one thing where having a team mate like Gasly benefits Max, even if it's bad for the team's constructor points. He never has to worry about fighting his team mate. If you think back to 2007, McLaren had Alonso and Hamilton who were equal so would be sharing the wins McLaren we best at. Ferrari with only Kimi as their WDC challenger meant he always got the big points when Ferrari were best. When you have a team mate in the WDC hunt and one of your opponents doesn't - they get an advantage for their WDC challenge.


The other thing is he doesn’t over drive the car, if Verstappen had Gasly as his team mate last year he would have won Monaco for example. Max over drove the car trying to match Ricciardo and binned it, making him miss Qualifying.


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I have noticed that Max does seem to make a fair few errors in defence, like he gets overly anxious. Great job today though and it's not a big weakness.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:00 pm 
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Invade wrote:
I have noticed that Max does seem to make a fair few errors in defence, like he gets overly anxious. Great job today though and it's not a big weakness.


Other than being over aggressive I'm not sure I've seen Verstappen make errors in defence. Have I been missing something?

He did sound like he was feeling the pressure a bit today which was the first time I've heard that, it didn't show in his driving though.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:07 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Invade wrote:
I have noticed that Max does seem to make a fair few errors in defence, like he gets overly anxious. Great job today though and it's not a big weakness.


Other than being over aggressive I'm not sure I've seen Verstappen make errors in defence. Have I been missing something?

He did sound like he was feeling the pressure a bit today which was the first time I've heard that, it didn't show in his driving though.


Against Leclerc recently in Silverstone, or against Kimi in the melee in "a race I can't remember" where he got a penalty for not safely returning to the track. And just generally twitchiness and anxiousness at times when under pressure from behind, being overly aggro at times or making twitchy little errors opening the door. He's quite highly strung in defence, I reckon.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:12 pm 
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Invade wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Invade wrote:
I have noticed that Max does seem to make a fair few errors in defence, like he gets overly anxious. Great job today though and it's not a big weakness.


Other than being over aggressive I'm not sure I've seen Verstappen make errors in defence. Have I been missing something?

He did sound like he was feeling the pressure a bit today which was the first time I've heard that, it didn't show in his driving though.


Against Leclerc recently in Silverstone, or against Kimi in the melee in "a race I can't remember" where he got a penalty for not safely returning to the track. And just generally twitchiness and anxiousness at times when under pressure from behind, being overly aggro at times or making twitchy little errors opening the door. He's quite highly strung in defence, I reckon.


Ah, yes you could be on to something there but interesting to see if that's a theme in the future.

Japan was that race where he got the penalty for returning to the track unsafely.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 8:27 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Invade wrote:
JN23 wrote:
Invade wrote:
I have noticed that Max does seem to make a fair few errors in defence, like he gets overly anxious. Great job today though and it's not a big weakness.


Other than being over aggressive I'm not sure I've seen Verstappen make errors in defence. Have I been missing something?

He did sound like he was feeling the pressure a bit today which was the first time I've heard that, it didn't show in his driving though.


Against Leclerc recently in Silverstone, or against Kimi in the melee in "a race I can't remember" where he got a penalty for not safely returning to the track. And just generally twitchiness and anxiousness at times when under pressure from behind, being overly aggro at times or making twitchy little errors opening the door. He's quite highly strung in defence, I reckon.


Ah, yes you could be on to something there but interesting to see if that's a theme in the future.

Japan was that race where he got the penalty for returning to the track unsafely.


Thanks for that. Yeah - I wouldn't say it's chronic but something to keep an eye out for.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 9:08 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
So, Bottas couldn't come 2nd in the 2017 WDC, with Seb managing to beat him.

Then in 2018 despite all of Seb's and Ferrari's mistakes last season they beat Bottas, as did Kimi and Max.

Then this season, you would expect Max to come 2nd in the WDC ahead of Bottas given the form Max is in, and Valtteri again looks like a broken man.

That means that Bottas is unable to come 2nd in the WDC despite supposedly having the best car, yet Lewis is winning comfortably; demonstrating more consistency, speed and racecraft than his teammate. To me the implication is that if Lewis wasn't there, then Mercedes would not be winning any of the last few championships, (2017 to 2019).

It reminds me of Webber in the 2009 to 2013 period where Red Bull had some great cars, (particularly 2011 and 2013), but he couldn't ever come 2nd in the WDC. So Red Bull needed Seb back then to win the titles as Webber came 4th, 3rd, 3rd, 6th and 3rd in the WDC with supposedly the best equipment during that period. He was always beaten by at least one other driver from another team, just like Bottas seems to now.

As of Hungary 2019, Lewis has scored 1021 points since the start of 2017. Bottas over the same period has 742 points and he is not exactly a complete slouch, just like Webber wasn't; they were both reasonably solid drivers. But that is still a 38% increase in points return from Lewis, and it shows to me that drivers still are a big factor in modern F1 and a top driver is worth their weight in gold. If Mercedes only had average drivers in the car, they wouldn't win the championships it appears.

Discuss.


I really don't agree with this. Most of his german grand prix was cleaner than a lot of the rest. 1 simple error resulted in retirement. This weekend (a week later), he is on top form in qualifying. Just makes a small mistake at the start of the race which looked worse due to what leclerc did. He is not at the level that I could say he is a broken man. That appeared to be the case near the end of last season. His qualifying pace is still excellent and other than a couple of mistakes recently, his season so far has been solid. Still better than Vettel and Leclerc I'd say. And his attitude does seem to have changed when you see him in the interviews. He seems to speak more this year and just seem determined to move on from it and improve. This stage of the season last year he came across as a different person in the interviews.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 10:30 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
So, Bottas couldn't come 2nd in the 2017 WDC, with Seb managing to beat him.

Then in 2018 despite all of Seb's and Ferrari's mistakes last season they beat Bottas, as did Kimi and Max.

Then this season, you would expect Max to come 2nd in the WDC ahead of Bottas given the form Max is in, and Valtteri again looks like a broken man.

That means that Bottas is unable to come 2nd in the WDC despite supposedly having the best car, yet Lewis is winning comfortably; demonstrating more consistency, speed and racecraft than his teammate. To me the implication is that if Lewis wasn't there, then Mercedes would not be winning any of the last few championships, (2017 to 2019).

It reminds me of Webber in the 2009 to 2013 period where Red Bull had some great cars, (particularly 2011 and 2013), but he couldn't ever come 2nd in the WDC. So Red Bull needed Seb back then to win the titles as Webber came 4th, 3rd, 3rd, 6th and 3rd in the WDC with supposedly the best equipment during that period. He was always beaten by at least one other driver from another team, just like Bottas seems to now.

As of Hungary 2019, Lewis has scored 1021 points since the start of 2017. Bottas over the same period has 742 points and he is not exactly a complete slouch, just like Webber wasn't; they were both reasonably solid drivers. But that is still a 38% increase in points return from Lewis, and it shows to me that drivers still are a big factor in modern F1 and a top driver is worth their weight in gold. If Mercedes only had average drivers in the car, they wouldn't win the championships it appears.

Discuss.


I really don't agree with this. Most of his german grand prix was cleaner than a lot of the rest. 1 simple error resulted in retirement. This weekend (a week later), he is on top form in qualifying. Just makes a small mistake at the start of the race which looked worse due to what leclerc did. He is not at the level that I could say he is a broken man. That appeared to be the case near the end of last season. His qualifying pace is still excellent and other than a couple of mistakes recently, his season so far has been solid. Still better than Vettel and Leclerc I'd say. And his attitude does seem to have changed when you see him in the interviews. He seems to speak more this year and just seem determined to move on from it and improve. This stage of the season last year he came across as a different person in the interviews.


I think Bottas has definitely showcased a much improve mentality. It will be a test for him to continue to do so for the rest of the season if the chances of the WDC appear more and more remote, and if more mediocre performances come. On my secret lab spreadsheets I have Bottas, Vettel and Leclerc with all approximately equal performance so far for the year in the races, and an edge to Bottas in qualifying.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2019 11:34 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
So, Bottas couldn't come 2nd in the 2017 WDC, with Seb managing to beat him.

Then in 2018 despite all of Seb's and Ferrari's mistakes last season they beat Bottas, as did Kimi and Max.

Then this season, you would expect Max to come 2nd in the WDC ahead of Bottas given the form Max is in, and Valtteri again looks like a broken man.

That means that Bottas is unable to come 2nd in the WDC despite supposedly having the best car, yet Lewis is winning comfortably; demonstrating more consistency, speed and racecraft than his teammate. To me the implication is that if Lewis wasn't there, then Mercedes would not be winning any of the last few championships, (2017 to 2019).

It reminds me of Webber in the 2009 to 2013 period where Red Bull had some great cars, (particularly 2011 and 2013), but he couldn't ever come 2nd in the WDC. So Red Bull needed Seb back then to win the titles as Webber came 4th, 3rd, 3rd, 6th and 3rd in the WDC with supposedly the best equipment during that period. He was always beaten by at least one other driver from another team, just like Bottas seems to now.

As of Hungary 2019, Lewis has scored 1021 points since the start of 2017. Bottas over the same period has 742 points and he is not exactly a complete slouch, just like Webber wasn't; they were both reasonably solid drivers. But that is still a 38% increase in points return from Lewis, and it shows to me that drivers still are a big factor in modern F1 and a top driver is worth their weight in gold. If Mercedes only had average drivers in the car, they wouldn't win the championships it appears.

Discuss.


I really don't agree with this. Most of his german grand prix was cleaner than a lot of the rest. 1 simple error resulted in retirement. This weekend (a week later), he is on top form in qualifying. Just makes a small mistake at the start of the race which looked worse due to what leclerc did. He is not at the level that I could say he is a broken man. That appeared to be the case near the end of last season. His qualifying pace is still excellent and other than a couple of mistakes recently, his season so far has been solid. Still better than Vettel and Leclerc I'd say. And his attitude does seem to have changed when you see him in the interviews. He seems to speak more this year and just seem determined to move on from it and improve. This stage of the season last year he came across as a different person in the interviews.


Yeah, Valtteri looking like a beaten man is more apt, saying broken man was just for effect, because I think mentally he has just been blown away by Lewis and it's leading to more and more mistakes as Lewis and his speed gets in his head.

He does have a slight disadvantage in the sense that when they race wheel-to-wheel, (which is very rare to be fair), he knows that if he makes a mistake and takes Lewis out then he gets dropped from the team the following year, whereas if Lewis gets it a bit wrong and takes Valtteri out, then Lewis is still the team's main man and can do no wrong in their eyes. This forces Valtteri to have to be a bit more careful and you do give up some edge in these circumstances, (similarly if a WDC challenger is dicing wheel-to-wheel with another driver that is not in the WDC hunt, this allows a slight advantage to the non-WDC challenger as he comes off less worse if they collide so he can be a bit more aggressive and carefree with his actions).


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 2:05 am 
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Invade wrote:
I have noticed that Max does seem to make a fair few errors in defence, like he gets overly anxious. Great job today though and it's not a big weakness.


I would say that last years Brazilian Grand Prix was a big defensive error for Max and somewhat of a error for Esteban Ocon.

He turned in on Esteban and even Lewis told Max that he had a lot more to lose than he had to gain by keeping Esteban behind him.

Certainly Max has also been chastised for making that second move under braking which was quite a bit of the cause of the wreck with Ricciardo in Azerbaijan last year.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 4:06 am 
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Direct answer to the title of this thread… yes it is Lewis and not just the car.

While the Merc has been dominant in several season, that’s not always been the case and even when the car hasn’t been the cream of the crop Lewis has rung it by the scruff of the neck and taken improbable wins while making it look like a walk in the park. The fact he make it looks so easy speaks volumes about his supreme abilities and masterful racecraft.

While he wins his teammates struggle to finish behind him, and that extends to Rosberg as well. While he’s fighting up front, his teammates have finished off the podium enough to disprove this mythological notion that the car is 85% of the equation because most drivers in F1 could provide that extra 15% to make it a 100% formula, and that’s simply not the case. Just as some of Schumacher’s cars were incorrectly said to have been all conquering, while his teammates finished several places behind consistently, Hamilton has done the same compared to his teammates.

There are a lot of parallels between them and it’s unfair to boast that they only won as much as they did because of the car because it’s simply not true. Lewis deserves vastly more credit than some give him and FWIW, even Alonso said Lewis is the best of their generation.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:31 am 
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Simply remove Hamilton, and yes, Mercedes would not be winning. But if you replace Hamilton with another driver instead of Bottas in one car and the other car without a driver, depending on who replaces Hamilton, Mercedes could still be winning.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:37 am 
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U do know you're putting Schumacher's legacy at risk here right?

Barichello was 2nd for quite a few years as Schumi's teammate, which implies it was really that Ferrari and not Schumi


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:40 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Direct answer to the title of this thread… yes it is Lewis and not just the car.

While the Merc has been dominant in several season, that’s not always been the case and even when the car hasn’t been the cream of the crop Lewis has rung it by the scruff of the neck and taken improbable wins while making it look like a walk in the park. The fact he make it looks so easy speaks volumes about his supreme abilities and masterful racecraft.

While he wins his teammates struggle to finish behind him, and that extends to Rosberg as well. While he’s fighting up front, his teammates have finished off the podium enough to disprove this mythological notion that the car is 85% of the equation because most drivers in F1 could provide that extra 15% to make it a 100% formula, and that’s simply not the case. Just as some of Schumacher’s cars were incorrectly said to have been all conquering, while his teammates finished several places behind consistently, Hamilton has done the same compared to his teammates.

There are a lot of parallels between them and it’s unfair to boast that they only won as much as they did because of the car because it’s simply not true. Lewis deserves vastly more credit than some give him and FWIW, even Alonso said Lewis is the best of their generation.


I repeat. Barichello was 2nd in the wdc for most years as Schumi's teammate


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:43 am 
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trento wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Direct answer to the title of this thread… yes it is Lewis and not just the car.

While the Merc has been dominant in several season, that’s not always been the case and even when the car hasn’t been the cream of the crop Lewis has rung it by the scruff of the neck and taken improbable wins while making it look like a walk in the park. The fact he make it looks so easy speaks volumes about his supreme abilities and masterful racecraft.

While he wins his teammates struggle to finish behind him, and that extends to Rosberg as well. While he’s fighting up front, his teammates have finished off the podium enough to disprove this mythological notion that the car is 85% of the equation because most drivers in F1 could provide that extra 15% to make it a 100% formula, and that’s simply not the case. Just as some of Schumacher’s cars were incorrectly said to have been all conquering, while his teammates finished several places behind consistently, Hamilton has done the same compared to his teammates.

There are a lot of parallels between them and it’s unfair to boast that they only won as much as they did because of the car because it’s simply not true. Lewis deserves vastly more credit than some give him and FWIW, even Alonso said Lewis is the best of their generation.


I repeat. Barichello was 2nd in the wdc for most years as Schumi's teammate


You can repeat it but it's not true!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:47 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
trento wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Direct answer to the title of this thread… yes it is Lewis and not just the car.

While the Merc has been dominant in several season, that’s not always been the case and even when the car hasn’t been the cream of the crop Lewis has rung it by the scruff of the neck and taken improbable wins while making it look like a walk in the park. The fact he make it looks so easy speaks volumes about his supreme abilities and masterful racecraft.

While he wins his teammates struggle to finish behind him, and that extends to Rosberg as well. While he’s fighting up front, his teammates have finished off the podium enough to disprove this mythological notion that the car is 85% of the equation because most drivers in F1 could provide that extra 15% to make it a 100% formula, and that’s simply not the case. Just as some of Schumacher’s cars were incorrectly said to have been all conquering, while his teammates finished several places behind consistently, Hamilton has done the same compared to his teammates.

There are a lot of parallels between them and it’s unfair to boast that they only won as much as they did because of the car because it’s simply not true. Lewis deserves vastly more credit than some give him and FWIW, even Alonso said Lewis is the best of their generation.


I repeat. Barichello was 2nd in the wdc for most years as Schumi's teammate


You can repeat it but it's not true!


Exactly


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 9:53 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
trento wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Direct answer to the title of this thread… yes it is Lewis and not just the car.

While the Merc has been dominant in several season, that’s not always been the case and even when the car hasn’t been the cream of the crop Lewis has rung it by the scruff of the neck and taken improbable wins while making it look like a walk in the park. The fact he make it looks so easy speaks volumes about his supreme abilities and masterful racecraft.

While he wins his teammates struggle to finish behind him, and that extends to Rosberg as well. While he’s fighting up front, his teammates have finished off the podium enough to disprove this mythological notion that the car is 85% of the equation because most drivers in F1 could provide that extra 15% to make it a 100% formula, and that’s simply not the case. Just as some of Schumacher’s cars were incorrectly said to have been all conquering, while his teammates finished several places behind consistently, Hamilton has done the same compared to his teammates.

There are a lot of parallels between them and it’s unfair to boast that they only won as much as they did because of the car because it’s simply not true. Lewis deserves vastly more credit than some give him and FWIW, even Alonso said Lewis is the best of their generation.


I repeat. Barichello was 2nd in the wdc for most years as Schumi's teammate


You can repeat it but it's not true!


ok i fact checked and it happened twice. Not too bad either way


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:35 am 
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Yes Rubens was 2nd in 2002 and 2004. He probably could have won the title in 2003 if he was a number 1 driver.

The number 1 Ferrari didn't break down between 2000-2005. Bulletproof. Rubens, as number 2 finished 28 points behind Schumacher in 2003 but had 5 DNFs to Schumachers 1. Rubens crucially had 2 mechanical DNFs to Schuamchers 0. One of which was a DNF from a comfortable lead in Brazil.

If he had the full backing off the team he might have been able to pull it off in 2003 but by that point the team was fully focussed on Schumacher who got the best engines, best engineers, car developed to his style, more test days, a much more reliable car, the development parts first, strategy preference and just about any other advantage Ferrari could give him.

Back to the point though, Schumacher was unbelieveable in the Ferrari 1997-2001 and no one else could have challanged for so many titles. The 2002-2004 Ferrari's were a different level.


Last edited by Johnson on Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:41 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2019 11:37 am 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
The idea that it's all the car still is also demonstrably wrong.


At Silverstone both Mercedes were over 20 seconds ahead of any competitor at the end of the race.

It is the car.

That being said, my statement could apply to any winning driver and any winning team for the last forty years.

It is the car.

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