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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:31 am 
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Lord Crc wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
There Mercedes' dominance was so much that even poor and average drivers could have won a championship in that equipment.


Most likely. My point was that they wouldn't as long as Hamilton had a seat in it.


Agreed!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:07 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
There Mercedes' dominance was so much that even poor and average drivers could have won a championship in that equipment.

This makes me somewhat curious who the slowest driver who could - statistically speaking - have won the 2014 championship in the Mercedes might be. How much of an advantage did it have on average? Something like 8 tenths? Would that be enough for Stroll in his rookie year, or maybe Chilton?

Obviously a complete hypothetical, but still: is the spread of the modern F1 field truly tight enough that anyone could have won in the dominating Mercs?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:16 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:
2017/2018 not in the best car?
I have a feeling a lot of people might see it differently but I am open to different views :)


Probably why they put 'arguably'. :)

And when he retires he will be 'arguably' the GOAT. :D


Exactly.

At times Ferrari had the pace and the package but driver or team mistakes cost them. How many races did Ferrari lose? I'm sure some one will go back and look and I'd place a large wager that it's more than 2. Even Ferrari admitted it and I believe Vettel did too - They lost it.

If you want to know what the best package looks like - go back to when it was Nico V Lewis. It was rare to see another car in front and when these two clashed - it gave others a chance.

Since Nico retired, we've seen different pole sitters and race winners. Especially with reliability, mistakes and more crucially 'track specific'. We've seen Leclerc lose out due to reliability. We've seen Vettel lose out due to a race mistake and bad strategy calls. Even Max lost a race win to another driver mistake 9perhaps a touch his too).

These were race victories the driver fully deserved that got lost.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:05 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

It is also true that being a quick car in the straight doesn't make it the overall best car. The Ferrari has/had the strongest engine and was pulling on the straights, but suffered on the slower turns, was thirstier and probably not as good on the tyres as the Merc (once the tyres changed late last year). The Merc is overall a more refined car if you want.


In what way was the Ferrari only quicker on the straights than the Merc? Ferrari were stronger on power circuits but not to the extent they relied on it as much as they are this year, they had a seriously quick car last year I think you have forgotten and were on top in Hungary even until it rained...

They were ahead significantly shortly after the summer break Germany, Hungary, Spa, Monza yet Hamilton won 3 of them 4 races

First.half of the season they had been quicker https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/06/201 ... -quickest/

Cba to debate this tbh I thought it was commonly accepted that the 2018 Ferrari was as fast/faster as the Merc


That is fine, cba is a valid argument. I see you have changed your stance from your original "not on the best car" to "as fast/faster", that's something.


I haven't changed my stance on anything son, I said Merc was arguably not the outright best car in 2018, the Ferrari was as fast or faster than the Merc.

People argue black is white here so I'm not looking to derail the post in a 5 page debate, if you wanna get into it then you can make a new thread and come up with something substantial rather than sarcastic comments, maybe then there would be some value in having a debate


"Son"??? Haha, really? Come on, what's next, mom jokes? Anyway.

We agree on the last part, it is not a black and white issue. And no one said outright best car for Merc, Ferrari was better in some races and Merc in others. Saying that they won in not the best car is a bit misleading, Merc is (arguably if you want) the car to have since 2014. Maybe it does not have the dominance of 2014-2016 as the rules finally allowed for convergence, but it is the most refined car, with a top engine, top chassis, good on tyres and with the best team around it. Put a top driver in it as well and they win every year. Maybe people are buying into all this "heroic effort to make it, we love you guys back at the factory" moto that Mercedes is on about for the last few seasons; they have to make it interesting I guess.


I never seen someone get insulted by being called son before..

I don't even know what you're arguing at this point, you're literally agreeing with me whilst saying you disagree. 2014-2016 nobody is disputing this, 2017 was closer and in 2018 Ferrari and Merc were pretty much equal on pace with if anything the Ferrari being slightly ahead at more races during the WDC even assuming that vettel is on par with Hamilton which he's blatantly not. This was my only point and you are just disagreeing for disagreement sake.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:20 am 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7619
FormulaFun wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:

In what way was the Ferrari only quicker on the straights than the Merc? Ferrari were stronger on power circuits but not to the extent they relied on it as much as they are this year, they had a seriously quick car last year I think you have forgotten and were on top in Hungary even until it rained...

They were ahead significantly shortly after the summer break Germany, Hungary, Spa, Monza yet Hamilton won 3 of them 4 races

First.half of the season they had been quicker https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/06/201 ... -quickest/

Cba to debate this tbh I thought it was commonly accepted that the 2018 Ferrari was as fast/faster as the Merc


That is fine, cba is a valid argument. I see you have changed your stance from your original "not on the best car" to "as fast/faster", that's something.


I haven't changed my stance on anything son, I said Merc was arguably not the outright best car in 2018, the Ferrari was as fast or faster than the Merc.

People argue black is white here so I'm not looking to derail the post in a 5 page debate, if you wanna get into it then you can make a new thread and come up with something substantial rather than sarcastic comments, maybe then there would be some value in having a debate


"Son"??? Haha, really? Come on, what's next, mom jokes? Anyway.

We agree on the last part, it is not a black and white issue. And no one said outright best car for Merc, Ferrari was better in some races and Merc in others. Saying that they won in not the best car is a bit misleading, Merc is (arguably if you want) the car to have since 2014. Maybe it does not have the dominance of 2014-2016 as the rules finally allowed for convergence, but it is the most refined car, with a top engine, top chassis, good on tyres and with the best team around it. Put a top driver in it as well and they win every year. Maybe people are buying into all this "heroic effort to make it, we love you guys back at the factory" moto that Mercedes is on about for the last few seasons; they have to make it interesting I guess.


I never seen someone get insulted by being called son before..

I don't even know what you're arguing at this point, you're literally agreeing with me whilst saying you disagree. 2014-2016 nobody is disputing this, 2017 was closer and in 2018 Ferrari and Merc were pretty much equal on pace with if anything the Ferrari being slightly ahead at more races during the WDC even assuming that vettel is on par with Hamilton which he's blatantly not. This was my only point and you are just disagreeing for disagreement sake.


You seriously going to pretend you do not know what it means to call someone "son"? Anyway, let's get over this.

I think you are confusing things here. It was you who started arguing: "In what way was the Ferrari only quicker on the straights than the Merc?.. etc.". All I said is that the fastest car is not necessarily the best car.


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