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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:31 am 
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Lord Crc wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
There Mercedes' dominance was so much that even poor and average drivers could have won a championship in that equipment.


Most likely. My point was that they wouldn't as long as Hamilton had a seat in it.


Agreed!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:07 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
There Mercedes' dominance was so much that even poor and average drivers could have won a championship in that equipment.

This makes me somewhat curious who the slowest driver who could - statistically speaking - have won the 2014 championship in the Mercedes might be. How much of an advantage did it have on average? Something like 8 tenths? Would that be enough for Stroll in his rookie year, or maybe Chilton?

Obviously a complete hypothetical, but still: is the spread of the modern F1 field truly tight enough that anyone could have won in the dominating Mercs?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 9:16 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
Verstappen33 wrote:
2017/2018 not in the best car?
I have a feeling a lot of people might see it differently but I am open to different views :)


Probably why they put 'arguably'. :)

And when he retires he will be 'arguably' the GOAT. :D


Exactly.

At times Ferrari had the pace and the package but driver or team mistakes cost them. How many races did Ferrari lose? I'm sure some one will go back and look and I'd place a large wager that it's more than 2. Even Ferrari admitted it and I believe Vettel did too - They lost it.

If you want to know what the best package looks like - go back to when it was Nico V Lewis. It was rare to see another car in front and when these two clashed - it gave others a chance.

Since Nico retired, we've seen different pole sitters and race winners. Especially with reliability, mistakes and more crucially 'track specific'. We've seen Leclerc lose out due to reliability. We've seen Vettel lose out due to a race mistake and bad strategy calls. Even Max lost a race win to another driver mistake 9perhaps a touch his too).

These were race victories the driver fully deserved that got lost.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:05 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

It is also true that being a quick car in the straight doesn't make it the overall best car. The Ferrari has/had the strongest engine and was pulling on the straights, but suffered on the slower turns, was thirstier and probably not as good on the tyres as the Merc (once the tyres changed late last year). The Merc is overall a more refined car if you want.


In what way was the Ferrari only quicker on the straights than the Merc? Ferrari were stronger on power circuits but not to the extent they relied on it as much as they are this year, they had a seriously quick car last year I think you have forgotten and were on top in Hungary even until it rained...

They were ahead significantly shortly after the summer break Germany, Hungary, Spa, Monza yet Hamilton won 3 of them 4 races

First.half of the season they had been quicker https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/06/201 ... -quickest/

Cba to debate this tbh I thought it was commonly accepted that the 2018 Ferrari was as fast/faster as the Merc


That is fine, cba is a valid argument. I see you have changed your stance from your original "not on the best car" to "as fast/faster", that's something.


I haven't changed my stance on anything son, I said Merc was arguably not the outright best car in 2018, the Ferrari was as fast or faster than the Merc.

People argue black is white here so I'm not looking to derail the post in a 5 page debate, if you wanna get into it then you can make a new thread and come up with something substantial rather than sarcastic comments, maybe then there would be some value in having a debate


"Son"??? Haha, really? Come on, what's next, mom jokes? Anyway.

We agree on the last part, it is not a black and white issue. And no one said outright best car for Merc, Ferrari was better in some races and Merc in others. Saying that they won in not the best car is a bit misleading, Merc is (arguably if you want) the car to have since 2014. Maybe it does not have the dominance of 2014-2016 as the rules finally allowed for convergence, but it is the most refined car, with a top engine, top chassis, good on tyres and with the best team around it. Put a top driver in it as well and they win every year. Maybe people are buying into all this "heroic effort to make it, we love you guys back at the factory" moto that Mercedes is on about for the last few seasons; they have to make it interesting I guess.


I never seen someone get insulted by being called son before..

I don't even know what you're arguing at this point, you're literally agreeing with me whilst saying you disagree. 2014-2016 nobody is disputing this, 2017 was closer and in 2018 Ferrari and Merc were pretty much equal on pace with if anything the Ferrari being slightly ahead at more races during the WDC even assuming that vettel is on par with Hamilton which he's blatantly not. This was my only point and you are just disagreeing for disagreement sake.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:20 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:

In what way was the Ferrari only quicker on the straights than the Merc? Ferrari were stronger on power circuits but not to the extent they relied on it as much as they are this year, they had a seriously quick car last year I think you have forgotten and were on top in Hungary even until it rained...

They were ahead significantly shortly after the summer break Germany, Hungary, Spa, Monza yet Hamilton won 3 of them 4 races

First.half of the season they had been quicker https://www.racefans.net/2018/08/06/201 ... -quickest/

Cba to debate this tbh I thought it was commonly accepted that the 2018 Ferrari was as fast/faster as the Merc


That is fine, cba is a valid argument. I see you have changed your stance from your original "not on the best car" to "as fast/faster", that's something.


I haven't changed my stance on anything son, I said Merc was arguably not the outright best car in 2018, the Ferrari was as fast or faster than the Merc.

People argue black is white here so I'm not looking to derail the post in a 5 page debate, if you wanna get into it then you can make a new thread and come up with something substantial rather than sarcastic comments, maybe then there would be some value in having a debate


"Son"??? Haha, really? Come on, what's next, mom jokes? Anyway.

We agree on the last part, it is not a black and white issue. And no one said outright best car for Merc, Ferrari was better in some races and Merc in others. Saying that they won in not the best car is a bit misleading, Merc is (arguably if you want) the car to have since 2014. Maybe it does not have the dominance of 2014-2016 as the rules finally allowed for convergence, but it is the most refined car, with a top engine, top chassis, good on tyres and with the best team around it. Put a top driver in it as well and they win every year. Maybe people are buying into all this "heroic effort to make it, we love you guys back at the factory" moto that Mercedes is on about for the last few seasons; they have to make it interesting I guess.


I never seen someone get insulted by being called son before..

I don't even know what you're arguing at this point, you're literally agreeing with me whilst saying you disagree. 2014-2016 nobody is disputing this, 2017 was closer and in 2018 Ferrari and Merc were pretty much equal on pace with if anything the Ferrari being slightly ahead at more races during the WDC even assuming that vettel is on par with Hamilton which he's blatantly not. This was my only point and you are just disagreeing for disagreement sake.


You seriously going to pretend you do not know what it means to call someone "son"? Anyway, let's get over this.

I think you are confusing things here. It was you who started arguing: "In what way was the Ferrari only quicker on the straights than the Merc?.. etc.". All I said is that the fastest car is not necessarily the best car.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:23 pm 
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If you're saying "It's not the car", then you are saying that Bottas is a better / faster driver than Seb, Max, Charles, and everyone else on the grid, as he is ahead of them all in the WDC.

This just seems ridiculous to me.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 2:59 pm 
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[quote=the fastest car is not necessarily the best car.[/quote]

This is so very true. Thrust SSC has a nice high top speed but probably wouldn't be very quick round an F1 circuit. In my opinion no-one has yet got close to Merc as the best all-around car in the Turbo-Hybrid era.

Had Vettel gone to Merc instead of Hamilton, Vettel would now have 9 WDC's and Hamilton would have one. I really don't see how this can be argued against.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:36 pm 
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HamsterTime wrote:
This is so very true. Thrust SSC has a nice high top speed but probably wouldn't be very quick round an F1 circuit. In my opinion no-one has yet got close to Merc as the best all-around car in the Turbo-Hybrid era.

Had Vettel gone to Merc instead of Hamilton, Vettel would now have 9 WDC's and Hamilton would have one. I really don't see how this can be argued against.

I think it can easily be argued against. The lead Mercedes driver was only guaranteed to win the title between 2014-2016, and I don't consider it a given at all that Vettel would have beaten Rosberg for all of those titles. When you get to 2017-2018, I think Ferrari would have had a much better chance at either of those titles with Vettel as the lead Mercedes driver.

Bottom line, Vettel is not equal to Hamilton. You can't just say it's a given that he would have achieved everything Lewis achieved.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 11:48 am 
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Exediron wrote:
HamsterTime wrote:
This is so very true. Thrust SSC has a nice high top speed but probably wouldn't be very quick round an F1 circuit. In my opinion no-one has yet got close to Merc as the best all-around car in the Turbo-Hybrid era.

Had Vettel gone to Merc instead of Hamilton, Vettel would now have 9 WDC's and Hamilton would have one. I really don't see how this can be argued against.

I think it can easily be argued against. The lead Mercedes driver was only guaranteed to win the title between 2014-2016, and I don't consider it a given at all that Vettel would have beaten Rosberg for all of those titles. When you get to 2017-2018, I think Ferrari would have had a much better chance at either of those titles with Vettel as the lead Mercedes driver.

Bottom line, Vettel is not equal to Hamilton. You can't just say it's a given that he would have achieved everything Lewis achieved.


If Vettel was in the Mercedes I have no doubt he would have achieved everything and more than Hamilton, its as if '10 - '13 seasons didn't happen.

You don't even need to speculate you actually have the data.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:09 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
HamsterTime wrote:
This is so very true. Thrust SSC has a nice high top speed but probably wouldn't be very quick round an F1 circuit. In my opinion no-one has yet got close to Merc as the best all-around car in the Turbo-Hybrid era.

Had Vettel gone to Merc instead of Hamilton, Vettel would now have 9 WDC's and Hamilton would have one. I really don't see how this can be argued against.

I think it can easily be argued against. The lead Mercedes driver was only guaranteed to win the title between 2014-2016, and I don't consider it a given at all that Vettel would have beaten Rosberg for all of those titles. When you get to 2017-2018, I think Ferrari would have had a much better chance at either of those titles with Vettel as the lead Mercedes driver.

Bottom line, Vettel is not equal to Hamilton. You can't just say it's a given that he would have achieved everything Lewis achieved.


If Vettel was in the Mercedes I have no doubt he would have achieved everything and more than Hamilton, its as if '10 - '13 seasons didn't happen.

You don't even need to speculate you actually have the data.


Swap Hamilton and Vettel around and I think almost everyone would be talking about the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari's as the best car to have.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:50 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
HamsterTime wrote:
This is so very true. Thrust SSC has a nice high top speed but probably wouldn't be very quick round an F1 circuit. In my opinion no-one has yet got close to Merc as the best all-around car in the Turbo-Hybrid era.

Had Vettel gone to Merc instead of Hamilton, Vettel would now have 9 WDC's and Hamilton would have one. I really don't see how this can be argued against.

I think it can easily be argued against. The lead Mercedes driver was only guaranteed to win the title between 2014-2016, and I don't consider it a given at all that Vettel would have beaten Rosberg for all of those titles. When you get to 2017-2018, I think Ferrari would have had a much better chance at either of those titles with Vettel as the lead Mercedes driver.

Bottom line, Vettel is not equal to Hamilton. You can't just say it's a given that he would have achieved everything Lewis achieved.


If Vettel was in the Mercedes I have no doubt he would have achieved everything and more than Hamilton, its as if '10 - '13 seasons didn't happen.

You don't even need to speculate you actually have the data.


Swap Hamilton and Vettel around and I think almost everyone would be talking about the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari's as the best car to have.


This makes me laugh a lot.

So let me get this right when the Ferrari was better Vettel was up there, but you believe in a car to his liking and the team behind him, somehow Hamilton will beat him?

The same Hamilton who James has to come appeal to keep racing?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 12:56 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
HamsterTime wrote:
This is so very true. Thrust SSC has a nice high top speed but probably wouldn't be very quick round an F1 circuit. In my opinion no-one has yet got close to Merc as the best all-around car in the Turbo-Hybrid era.

Had Vettel gone to Merc instead of Hamilton, Vettel would now have 9 WDC's and Hamilton would have one. I really don't see how this can be argued against.

I think it can easily be argued against. The lead Mercedes driver was only guaranteed to win the title between 2014-2016, and I don't consider it a given at all that Vettel would have beaten Rosberg for all of those titles. When you get to 2017-2018, I think Ferrari would have had a much better chance at either of those titles with Vettel as the lead Mercedes driver.

Bottom line, Vettel is not equal to Hamilton. You can't just say it's a given that he would have achieved everything Lewis achieved.


If Vettel was in the Mercedes I have no doubt he would have achieved everything and more than Hamilton, its as if '10 - '13 seasons didn't happen.

You don't even need to speculate you actually have the data.


Swap Hamilton and Vettel around and I think almost everyone would be talking about the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari's as the best car to have.


This makes me laugh a lot.

So let me get this right when the Ferrari was better Vettel was up there, but you believe in a car to his liking and the team behind him, somehow Hamilton will beat him?

The same Hamilton who James has to come appeal to keep racing?


How do you know Vettel would "like" the Mercedes?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:14 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

How do you know Vettel would "like" the Mercedes?


A driver in a dominant car wont like the car after winning 3 titles in it, thats a new one.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:33 pm 
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Vettel has been in a dominant Ferrari, set up to his specs, given Number 1 status, with a World Champion as a team mate and still didn't beat Hamilton.
He needs poll, a clean start and clean air in a dominant car to win. Doesn't that indicate that Lewis tips the scales?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:39 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Vettel has been in a dominant Ferrari, set up to his specs, given Number 1 status, with a World Champion as a team mate and still didn't beat Hamilton.
He needs poll, a clean start and clean air in a dominant car to win. Doesn't that indicate that Lewis tips the scales?


Would like to exchange opinions, but as you don't understand the what the word 'dominant' means, it will be a pointless exchange.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:45 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I think it can easily be argued against. The lead Mercedes driver was only guaranteed to win the title between 2014-2016, and I don't consider it a given at all that Vettel would have beaten Rosberg for all of those titles. When you get to 2017-2018, I think Ferrari would have had a much better chance at either of those titles with Vettel as the lead Mercedes driver.

Bottom line, Vettel is not equal to Hamilton. You can't just say it's a given that he would have achieved everything Lewis achieved.


If Vettel was in the Mercedes I have no doubt he would have achieved everything and more than Hamilton, its as if '10 - '13 seasons didn't happen.

You don't even need to speculate you actually have the data.


Swap Hamilton and Vettel around and I think almost everyone would be talking about the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari's as the best car to have.


This makes me laugh a lot.

So let me get this right when the Ferrari was better Vettel was up there, but you believe in a car to his liking and the team behind him, somehow Hamilton will beat him?

The same Hamilton who James has to come appeal to keep racing?


How do you know Vettel would "like" the Mercedes?

Indeed, I remember at times this year the Mercedes being described as being tail happy, that's not a car that would suit Vettel.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 1:53 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Vettel has been in a dominant Ferrari, set up to his specs, given Number 1 status, with a World Champion as a team mate and still didn't beat Hamilton.
He needs poll, a clean start and clean air in a dominant car to win. Doesn't that indicate that Lewis tips the scales?


Would like to exchange opinions, but as you don't understand the what the word 'dominant' means, it will be a pointless exchange.


Would like to exchange opinions, but as you don't understand what the word 'impartial' means, it will be a pointless exchange.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:39 pm 
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I don't think Vettel would do well in a Mercedes tuned for years to suit Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:27 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Vettel has been in a dominant Ferrari, set up to his specs, given Number 1 status, with a World Champion as a team mate and still didn't beat Hamilton.
He needs poll, a clean start and clean air in a dominant car to win. Doesn't that indicate that Lewis tips the scales?


Would like to exchange opinions, but as you don't understand the what the word 'dominant' means, it will be a pointless exchange.


Would like to exchange opinions, but as you don't understand what the word 'impartial' means, it will be a pointless exchange.


Actually Rockie has a valid point. Vettel has not been in "a dominate Ferrari ", no matter how you try to spin it.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:25 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Vettel has been in a dominant Ferrari, set up to his specs, given Number 1 status, with a World Champion as a team mate and still didn't beat Hamilton.
He needs poll, a clean start and clean air in a dominant car to win. Doesn't that indicate that Lewis tips the scales?


Would like to exchange opinions, but as you don't understand the what the word 'dominant' means, it will be a pointless exchange.

Would like to exchange opinions, but as you don't understand what the word 'impartial' means, it will be a pointless exchange.

Actually Rockie has a valid point. Vettel has not been in "a dominate Ferrari ", no matter how you try to spin it.

Yeah, agreed. Juvenile jabs at one another aside, it's not reasonable to describe a car that was marginally the best over a season as dominant.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:33 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Blake wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Vettel has been in a dominant Ferrari, set up to his specs, given Number 1 status, with a World Champion as a team mate and still didn't beat Hamilton.
He needs poll, a clean start and clean air in a dominant car to win. Doesn't that indicate that Lewis tips the scales?


Would like to exchange opinions, but as you don't understand the what the word 'dominant' means, it will be a pointless exchange.

Would like to exchange opinions, but as you don't understand what the word 'impartial' means, it will be a pointless exchange.

Actually Rockie has a valid point. Vettel has not been in "a dominate Ferrari ", no matter how you try to spin it.

Yeah, agreed. Juvenile jabs at one another aside, it's not reasonable to describe a car that was marginally the best over a season as dominant.


Probably right, I apologise for lapsing into juvenile behaviour, my defence, well its hard to read posts that fail to recognise there may be an alternative point even when supported by facts. I exaggerated but I do appreciate just a little impartiality in discussions.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 9:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
HamsterTime wrote:
This is so very true. Thrust SSC has a nice high top speed but probably wouldn't be very quick round an F1 circuit. In my opinion no-one has yet got close to Merc as the best all-around car in the Turbo-Hybrid era.

Had Vettel gone to Merc instead of Hamilton, Vettel would now have 9 WDC's and Hamilton would have one. I really don't see how this can be argued against.

I think it can easily be argued against. The lead Mercedes driver was only guaranteed to win the title between 2014-2016, and I don't consider it a given at all that Vettel would have beaten Rosberg for all of those titles. When you get to 2017-2018, I think Ferrari would have had a much better chance at either of those titles with Vettel as the lead Mercedes driver.

Bottom line, Vettel is not equal to Hamilton. You can't just say it's a given that he would have achieved everything Lewis achieved.


If Vettel was in the Mercedes I have no doubt he would have achieved everything and more than Hamilton, its as if '10 - '13 seasons didn't happen.

You don't even need to speculate you actually have the data.


Swap Hamilton and Vettel around and I think almost everyone would be talking about the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari's as the best car to have.

:thumbup:

A driver winning is often cited as enough evidence that they have the best car and I find this to be a lazy argument. While Hamilton is getting this treatment the most at the moment there are multiple other cases from the past, not least Vettel himself. The more years of F1 I watch the more I realise that the driver makes more difference than I had previously believed.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:49 am 
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j man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
HamsterTime wrote:
This is so very true. Thrust SSC has a nice high top speed but probably wouldn't be very quick round an F1 circuit. In my opinion no-one has yet got close to Merc as the best all-around car in the Turbo-Hybrid era.

Had Vettel gone to Merc instead of Hamilton, Vettel would now have 9 WDC's and Hamilton would have one. I really don't see how this can be argued against.

I think it can easily be argued against. The lead Mercedes driver was only guaranteed to win the title between 2014-2016, and I don't consider it a given at all that Vettel would have beaten Rosberg for all of those titles. When you get to 2017-2018, I think Ferrari would have had a much better chance at either of those titles with Vettel as the lead Mercedes driver.

Bottom line, Vettel is not equal to Hamilton. You can't just say it's a given that he would have achieved everything Lewis achieved.


If Vettel was in the Mercedes I have no doubt he would have achieved everything and more than Hamilton, its as if '10 - '13 seasons didn't happen.

You don't even need to speculate you actually have the data.


Swap Hamilton and Vettel around and I think almost everyone would be talking about the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari's as the best car to have.

:thumbup:

A driver winning is often cited as enough evidence that they have the best car and I find this to be a lazy argument. While Hamilton is getting this treatment the most at the moment there are multiple other cases from the past, not least Vettel himself. The more years of F1 I watch the more I realise that the driver makes more difference than I had previously believed.


Except that the Autosport Awards have given the Mercedes F1 car as car of the year for the last 5 years. Hamilton driver of the year too. It's an impossible judgement to make but I think we all know that something like tyres not being quite up to temp can ruin a race from start to finish. The car is that critical.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:02 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Vettel has been in a dominant Ferrari, set up to his specs, given Number 1 status, with a World Champion as a team mate and still didn't beat Hamilton.
He needs poll, a clean start and clean air in a dominant car to win. Doesn't that indicate that Lewis tips the scales?


Would like to exchange opinions, but as you don't understand the what the word 'dominant' means, it will be a pointless exchange.


Would like to exchange opinions, but as you don't understand what the word 'impartial' means, it will be a pointless exchange.


:lol: :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:09 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:

Except that the Autosport Awards have given the Mercedes F1 car as car of the year for the last 5 years. Hamilton driver of the year too. It's an impossible judgement to make but I think we all know that something like tyres not being quite up to temp can ruin a race from start to finish. The car is that critical.

IIRC, the Autosport car of the year award (as opposed to driver of the year), is voted for by the general public (as opposed sports insiders). So, for 2017-2018, i'm not sure how much stock can be put into that particular award, as it really wasn't clear cut who had the better car.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:19 am 
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SR1 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

Except that the Autosport Awards have given the Mercedes F1 car as car of the year for the last 5 years. Hamilton driver of the year too. It's an impossible judgement to make but I think we all know that something like tyres not being quite up to temp can ruin a race from start to finish. The car is that critical.

IIRC, the Autosport car of the year award (as opposed to driver of the year), is voted for by the general public (as opposed sports insiders). So, for 2017-2018, i'm not sure how much stock can be put into that particular award, as it really wasn't clear cut who had the better car.


Then we should and ignore opinions on this forum and ourselves then! We're the general public so let's not take any real notice of anything here! ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:29 am 
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I think the 2017/2018 Ferrari and Mercedes were close enough in performance that the highest performing driver across those cars would win the championship. I think Hamilton would have won the championship in the Ferrari in both those seasons unless there was a better driver in the Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:19 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I think the 2017/2018 Ferrari and Mercedes were close enough in performance that the highest performing driver across those cars would win the championship. I think Hamilton would have won the championship in the Ferrari in both those seasons unless there was a better driver in the Mercedes.


I have to disagree to a point, particularly for 2017. Lewis would have had to not only driver better than Vettel, he would have had to overcome Ferrari's mistakes as well. While one can argue that the cars themselves were near equal, the teams were not. As much as it pains me to say it Ferrari has not been a match for Mercedes for several years now, I doubt that Lewis could have overcome that hurdle...especially if a top driver were in the Mercs.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:30 pm 
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SR1 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

Except that the Autosport Awards have given the Mercedes F1 car as car of the year for the last 5 years. Hamilton driver of the year too. It's an impossible judgement to make but I think we all know that something like tyres not being quite up to temp can ruin a race from start to finish. The car is that critical.

IIRC, the Autosport car of the year award (as opposed to driver of the year), is voted for by the general public (as opposed sports insiders). So, for 2017-2018, i'm not sure how much stock can be put into that particular award, as it really wasn't clear cut who had the better car.

The bulk of the "masses" don't have a vast and complete knowledge of the deep intricacies of the sport so they vote for whatever athlete/driver is "perceived" to be the best and they do the same when voting for the car/team. Many people today have bought into the preposterousness that Lebron James is the greatest basketball player of all time, but every last one of them came to that conclusion throughout what they heard repeated by media who's job is to create excitement and buzz in order to continue to sell their product. However, everyone who's had the privilege of watching them both can tell you that Michael Jordan is head and shoulders the absolute greatest basketball player of all time. So because today the fanbase will say Lebron is the greatest, we should just agree blindly? Heck no!

The real question people should be asking themselves is "is it Lewis propelling the car to wins, or is the car propelling Lewis to wins?"
To find the right answer, one must look at Lewis' career as a whole, dating to his early karting days and see how well he did regardless of the cars he drove. In Karts he had inferior, well used and abused, and way outdated machines, yet he won consistently. Moving up through the formulas he progressed through the ranks with highs and lows, but since 2005 he has been super consistent, winning a bunch and since entering F1 he's never finished below 5th in the championship and his teams have finished high up in the order as well. How much does the car allow the man to push and how much does the driver push the car, and if you compare his performance record against his teammates, the evidence clearly shows that while indeed his cars have been good, was he's been able to do with them consistently trumps what his teammates could, though for a couple of seasons Rosberg was right there with him, matching speed, quickness and skill. Outside of that, Hamilton has shown to be a superior entity in an F1 car.

Once Vettel calms down and uses his head and bides his time, he will come back to top form, which he's not really far off of at the moment.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:39 pm 
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Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think the 2017/2018 Ferrari and Mercedes were close enough in performance that the highest performing driver across those cars would win the championship. I think Hamilton would have won the championship in the Ferrari in both those seasons unless there was a better driver in the Mercedes.


I have to disagree to a point, particularly for 2017. Lewis would have had to not only driver better than Vettel, he would have had to overcome Ferrari's mistakes as well. While one can argue that the cars themselves were near equal, the teams were not. As much as it pains me to say it Ferrari has not been a match for Mercedes for several years now, I doubt that Lewis could have overcome that hurdle...especially if a top driver were in the Mercs.


Hmmm, maybe. Most of the gap between them was Singapore though. Take that out and you're left with about 20 points to make up and I think Hamilton is well worth 20 points over a season on Vettel.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:58 pm 
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While Ferrari have cost themselves several race wins, Mercedes hasn't gotten it right all the time either. They've just not made as many mistakes as Ferrari.

What is telling about Ferrari as a racing company is how quickly they corrected the debacle of the Hybrid PU they had upon debut. They ware terrible initially and they got that turned around in record time.
However, the mistakes have kept them from capturing the Constructor's titles and arguably the Driver's title as well. Despite having 2 top tier drivers, they're struggling to match Mercedes in consistency, but their strategy is the biggest issue they must overcome in order to get back on top. This whole notion of wait to see what the others do so we can then react is not how a top team should operate and execute strategy.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:48 pm 
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Agreed, Mercenary

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 3:32 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
j man wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I think it can easily be argued against. The lead Mercedes driver was only guaranteed to win the title between 2014-2016, and I don't consider it a given at all that Vettel would have beaten Rosberg for all of those titles. When you get to 2017-2018, I think Ferrari would have had a much better chance at either of those titles with Vettel as the lead Mercedes driver.

Bottom line, Vettel is not equal to Hamilton. You can't just say it's a given that he would have achieved everything Lewis achieved.


If Vettel was in the Mercedes I have no doubt he would have achieved everything and more than Hamilton, its as if '10 - '13 seasons didn't happen.

You don't even need to speculate you actually have the data.


Swap Hamilton and Vettel around and I think almost everyone would be talking about the 2017 and 2018 Ferrari's as the best car to have.

:thumbup:

A driver winning is often cited as enough evidence that they have the best car and I find this to be a lazy argument. While Hamilton is getting this treatment the most at the moment there are multiple other cases from the past, not least Vettel himself. The more years of F1 I watch the more I realise that the driver makes more difference than I had previously believed.


Except that the Autosport Awards have given the Mercedes F1 car as car of the year for the last 5 years. Hamilton driver of the year too. It's an impossible judgement to make but I think we all know that something like tyres not being quite up to temp can ruin a race from start to finish. The car is that critical.

Well I guess you would hardly give it to the car that didn't win the titles, that cycles back to if the car wins then it must be the best car.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:25 am 
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At the very least, one of the best cars and certainly a competitive car. I know of no WDC who won in an uncompetitive car.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:30 am 
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Blake wrote:
At the very least, one of the best cars and certainly a competitive car. I know of no WDC who won in an uncompetitive car.


It's impossible by definition. If a car achieves good results it is competitive and it's impossible to win a WDC without achieving good results.

I do think WDC's have been won and definitely nearly one in cars that would not have been deemed capable of even winning multiple races had a really top driver not been driving one of them.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:48 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
At the very least, one of the best cars and certainly a competitive car. I know of no WDC who won in an uncompetitive car.


It's impossible by definition. If a car achieves good results it is competitive and it's impossible to win a WDC without achieving good results.

I do think WDC's have been won and definitely nearly one in cars that would not have been deemed capable of even winning multiple races had a really top driver not been driving one of them.


I agree that in marginally competitive cars the right driver can make the difference. The driver is most certainly part of the whole package, but not the primary segment...but, yes, in competitive cars a top driver can make the difference.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:08 am 
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Blake wrote:
I agree that in marginally competitive cars the right driver can make the difference. The driver is most certainly part of the whole package, but not the primary segment...but, yes, in competitive cars a top driver can make the difference.

I think a top driver can actually nudge a car about one category in terms of perception: a good-but-not-great car becomes a title challenger, or the worst car in the field becomes a competent midfield car.

For example, what would we think of Red Bull this year with Gasly and Hartley for drivers? We'd probably think the Honda engine is a huge flop and they're doing the best they can with a car that's barely faster than the McLaren.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 8:56 pm 
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I might get flamed for this but I've crunched some numbers and I reckon with a near perfect season Leclerc would be right in this championship fight.

Now, I think most of us agree that Leclerc has been among the 5 best drivers this season?

So whilst Mercedes obviously give Hamilton the platform I believe it's Lewis making a lot of the difference. If Leclerc was driving at Hamilton's level this championship would be game on.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:45 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I might get flamed for this but I've crunched some numbers and I reckon with a near perfect season Leclerc would be right in this championship fight.

Now, I think most of us agree that Leclerc has been among the 5 best drivers this season?

So whilst Mercedes obviously give Hamilton the platform I believe it's Lewis making a lot of the difference. If Leclerc was driving at Hamilton's level this championship would be game on.

I somewhat agree. I fully agree with the statement that a near perfect season would put Leclerc right in the championship fight, but I don't agree that it's all been down to him. Ferrari's strategy and reliability has to take some blame early on.

He cost himself:

At least 5 points in Baku (just swapping his place with Vettel), but possibly as many as 15 if he would have won from pole.
At least 10 points in Monaco (although the team cost him points as well in qualifying)
7 points in Austria by weak defending from Verstappen
As many as 25 points in Germany by crashing in the wet (although Hamilton did this as well, so it can't really be classified as driving worse than Hamilton)

And that's about it: 22-57 points, depending on how you count it. He'd certainly be within striking distance if he hadn't made those errors. Now, if you add in errors on the team side (and acting as if they prioritized him for the WDC the way Mercedes does for Lewis):

2 points in Australia, or at least 1 from not going for the fastest lap
10 points in Bahrain from reliability
5 points in China from making him swap with Vettel
2 points in Spain from making him swap with Vettel (although this one was justified)
As many as 25 points from the whole Monaco fiasco, but more conservatively I'll blame the team for 8 points assuming he would have finished ahead of Vettel normally)
At least 3 points for not telling him about Vettel's penalty in Canada, and potentially more for his poor strategy
7 points for letting Vettel undercut him (although I don't think this was on purpose)

For a total of 37-54 points, depending on how you count it. For a perfect season therefore he could be nearly 100 points ahead of where he is now, which would actually put him in front of Lewis.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2019 11:20 am 
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Lewis is a special talent. Simple as that. Every driver he went against said one of two things "he's number 1" or "he's not easy to beat".

Alonso/Button both echoed that line. He isn't easy to beat. He's a multi champ with two different teams. He can win with the 2nd best car and even in the 3rd. He isn't perfect but name me one driver who was? If in the last 20 years you want to mention Michael Schumacher, even with complete number 1 status and another championship heading his way Rubens actually managed to openly beat him in one particular race. It was the race made famous by the move over at the last moment.

Course you need a car that's fast, reliable, team strategy and at times a pot of luck. That is F1.

Name me 3rd or 4th best team on the grid that was fighting for a title while not relying on weather/reliability/luck every weekend to get any kind of a result.

Lewis is currently one of the best drivers on the grid and any team boss would take him, we know it. People who question his talent = bitter rival fans.


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