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Vettel Top-Ten ATG yes or no and all that...
Yes 22%  22%  [ 19 ]
No 78%  78%  [ 66 ]
Total votes : 85
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:04 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Todd wrote:
And if you think anyone is driving at his pre-retirement level today, then I can see why the FIA thinks DRS, multiple tire compound requirements, fuel use regs, and engine life standards that have most racing done at several seconds off the cars' natural paces are what the fans deserve. There's nobody today that could drop a TdF bicycle racer in the Alps because his training level was so high, or play pickup football with the German national team, or get out of a car looking like he'd just played chess when all the other drivers looked like they'd just been released from a tiger cage in the jungle.

You're welcome to your opinion, but I think this is almost universally considered false by the F1 community itself. Schumacher is considered to have been the pioneer of modern fitness, not a level beyond the current grid. The reason Schumi looked so much better in comparison to his peers is that they weren't at the fitness level of modern drivers while he was. He was ahead of his time, not ahead of the current time.


Schumacher wasn't the pioneer of fitness. I've watched since 1976 and any number of drivers used fitness as a competitive factor even then. Lewis Hamilton spends too much time with Tommy Hilfiger and his hair dresser to have a shot at matching Schumacher in the gym. Schumacher wasn't just the fittest F1 driver, he was a guy who could show up professional athletes in their own areas of expertise. His commitment to training was complete. When Schumacher was at his best, refueling and hard grooved tires meant that every race was a series of sprints between refueling stops. It was nothing like today, where the drivers are just managing their fragile tires, managing their restricted fuel loads, and managing a power-limited drivetrain so it lasts a third of the season. It's the difference between racing and commuting. It also isn't just like he was the fittest driver in 1991. The competition had fifteen years to notice what he was doing and try to match it. Nobody could and nobody has come close since.


I've no idea if Hamilton's fitness is superior to Schumacher's or not but I hate this line of argument.

I'm sure that whatever commitments Lewis has with Tommy and however many hair appointments he attends they take up less of his time than Schumacher's wife and two children took up of his.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:06 pm 
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This Vettel debate does show one thing. In the current climate, car and personal prejudices are everything in popular opinion about drivers. Suppose Hamilton goes to Ferrari and gets mired in politics, incompetence, and the pressure cooker of being the sole point of pride of a nation. He might hang on tenaciously in the hope of repeating what Schumacher did and ripping Ferrari out of its institutional inertia. And in the process, he might end up defenseless to the people who didn't enjoy it when he was winning, just like what has happened to Vettel.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:09 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Todd wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Todd wrote:
And if you think anyone is driving at his pre-retirement level today, then I can see why the FIA thinks DRS, multiple tire compound requirements, fuel use regs, and engine life standards that have most racing done at several seconds off the cars' natural paces are what the fans deserve. There's nobody today that could drop a TdF bicycle racer in the Alps because his training level was so high, or play pickup football with the German national team, or get out of a car looking like he'd just played chess when all the other drivers looked like they'd just been released from a tiger cage in the jungle.

You're welcome to your opinion, but I think this is almost universally considered false by the F1 community itself. Schumacher is considered to have been the pioneer of modern fitness, not a level beyond the current grid. The reason Schumi looked so much better in comparison to his peers is that they weren't at the fitness level of modern drivers while he was. He was ahead of his time, not ahead of the current time.


Schumacher wasn't the pioneer of fitness. I've watched since 1976 and any number of drivers used fitness as a competitive factor even then. Lewis Hamilton spends too much time with Tommy Hilfiger and his hair dresser to have a shot at matching Schumacher in the gym. Schumacher wasn't just the fittest F1 driver, he was a guy who could show up professional athletes in their own areas of expertise. His commitment to training was complete. When Schumacher was at his best, refueling and hard grooved tires meant that every race was a series of sprints between refueling stops. It was nothing like today, where the drivers are just managing their fragile tires, managing their restricted fuel loads, and managing a power-limited drivetrain so it lasts a third of the season. It's the difference between racing and commuting. It also isn't just like he was the fittest driver in 1991. The competition had fifteen years to notice what he was doing and try to match it. Nobody could and nobody has come close since.


I've no idea if Hamilton's fitness is superior to Schumacher's or not but I hate this line of argument.

I'm sure that whatever commitments Lewis has with Tommy and however many hair appointments he attends they take up less of his time than Schumacher's wife and two children took up of his.


:thumbup:

Also absolutely irrelevant to how Hamilton compares to Schumacher.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:17 pm 
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You guys don't think it is relevant because you don't know what Schumacher was really like compared to Zoolander. When Schumacher first came to Spa with Jordan, there was nobody to take him around the track in those days before simulators and accurate video games. So he pulled his bicycle out of his suitcase and learned the track on that before opening everyone's eyes with his qualifying lap in an unspectacular Jordan. He then spent his first partial season retiring three-time WDC Nelson Piquet, a guy who is apparently outside of the knowledge base of the commentariat here, which I find disgraceful.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:30 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
But that's just it… The pressure is way up for several reasons, but mostly because Ferrari is in a car that's ever so slightly inferior to the Mercedes and he's trying everything and then some to make up for the deficit and in doing so, he's constantly looking for the ultimate limit and ways to exceed it, and in doing so he's lost it. One cannot fault him for that. that is precisely what ALL drivers should be trying to do in order to claw back as much performance to those whom have a faster package. I'd rather see him go balls to the wall and losing it than playing it safe to keep from going off-track or spinning because then I know he's giving everything.

I've done that very thing in karts… trying to keep up with guys that were simply so dialed in that I couldn't reel them in so I looked to copy their lines and braking points and THEN in looking to other areas where I could perhaps gain a 10th or even 100th, I ended up just post the limit and either spam or had to veer off the prime line and into the marbles or off-track and ended up losing out. That's just the nature of the beast. Leclerc is still being hyped as the great white hope (some of you older guys might get the reference) yet Vettel is beating him thus far. Yes the team made a couple of calls that cost Leclerc, but if they hadn't intervened the difference would be marginal at best and they'd be about equal. So if Leclerc is so great than so too must be Vettel. I find Vettel to be in the elite club and Leclerc is on a similar level.

That's simply not true, last year Hamilton was having to pull out all of the stops against a better Ferrari and was leading inspite of that because of mistakes made by Vettel and poor wet driving.

I disagree. Initially the Ferrari was the best car and Vettel did well enough. Not perfect, but solid. Then Mercedes clawed their way back to close the gap and then surpass the Ferrari and Vettel found himself having to fight with a car that was at a disadvantage.

The Qualifying battle pretty much sums it up with Hamilton beating Vettel 14 times and Vettel besting Hamilton 7 times, and 7 times he was out qualified by both Mercs. So that is telling in that in order to challenge the Silver Arrows, Vettel had to push to the limit having started behind, and stay there for complete race distances, and had to exceed the limit to find more speed. Twice he mucked it up on his own, but I wouldn't say he was terrible, not by a country mile. This year the Ferrari has been better only on a select few circuits and the Mercedes at most with the Red Bull in Verstappen's hands being a serious contender a couple of times. What no one has talked about in details as of yet (at least that I've seen) is that Red Bull's extreme rake setup, which is being copied now, only not to the same extreme, is in effect behaving much like ground effects and they're figuring out how to plant the car more solidly because of it. Coupled with their shorter wheelbase, the Red Bull can corner better and more quickly than everyone else which is how and why they dominate in certain sectors and tracks. As well, the Honda engine is also pretty damn fast this year and it still sounds incredible… Clearly the best sounding engine in F1.

The Ferrari this year slots in between the Mercs and the Red Bulls but it's usually not that far off in terms of pace. Leclerc made a mistake that cost him big points once, and Ferrari "strategies" cost him big time and Vettel as well to a lesser degree.

Revisionary work at it's best, in 2018 the Ferrari was the better car more often than not up to Monza which was round 14 two thirds of the way through the season, I believe in the appropriate thread we had it 9-5 to Ferrari?

Yet after Monza Hamilton had a 30 point lead despite having a mechanical failure in Austria against Vettel's 100% reliable car, the one fighting the uphill battle was Hamilton and not Vettel, after Monza fair enough the wheels started to fall off for Ferrari whereupon then you can compile all the nice stats in favour of Mercedes.

It's not revisionary in the least. It's reality. Too often people hear something and run with it and it becomes the gospel and the majority of the masses buy the grape koolaid, but it doesn't mean it is so. Go back and rewatch 2018 and you'll see that in the first 6 races Ferrari had the clear edge with it dwindling each week until Mercedes bridged the gap enough to challenge them on equal footing. But that lasted all of 2-3 weekends and then they took the lead in the development race by a small margin that grew. It was never easy for Mercedes or Hamilton, but the Mercedes definitely had the edge.

Ferrari had the best car in successive races in the middle of the season, Germany, Hungary, Spa and Monza but in these races Hamilton had 3 wins and a second place, this is were Hamilton broke Vettel who made 2 bad mistakes, like I say this was discussed in the appropriate thread.

Mercedes finished the last third of the season stronger but even then the score read 11-10 in favour of Ferrari over the season, to say Vettel made mistakes because of his struggles in an inferior car is simply not true.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:53 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
But, on the other hand, you have an argument that Stirling Moss may not necessarily make the top ten due to lack of F1 title. This is even after he effectively gave one up by defending rival driver Mike Hawthorn from a penalty which would have relegated Hawthorn to runner-up to Moss.

Even then how many one time champions make the list?

The point I'm driving here is that the argument that a Vettel with multiple titles may not be in the GOAT conversation is a little contrary to the argument that a Moss with no titles may not be in that conversation.

I think they're actually both the same, to be in a GOAT argument first of all you have to be seen at least as the best of your era, I don't believe either fall into that category?
This thread itself is about being a top 10 great, in that respect winning more than one title seems to be the first requirement?

Does it though? I'd argue that being viewed as one of the best (not the best) of the era is sufficient to be considered for the top 10. Otherwise, people who rate Senna above Prost, and Alonso above Hamilton, would - by the latter definition - exclude those from the list.
I wasn't around to see Moss drive but have read articles that state that he went toe-to-toe with Fangio and imply that, had he been less 'gentlemanly' (for wont of a better word), would probably be a multi-WDC.
This is a subjective discussion, so I'm not saying that your view is wrong (you do make some pertinent points). I'm simply counter-arguing it as I don't necessarily agree.

Prost, Senna, Alonso and Hamilton have all won more than one title so that doesn't preclude any of them to be included in the top 10 as I said winning more than one title seems to be the first requirement of the majority of people who look to vote in such things.

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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:57 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think they're actually both the same, to be in a GOAT argument first of all you have to be seen at least as the best of your era, I don't believe either fall into that category?

This thread itself is about being a top 10 great, in that respect winning more than one title seems to be the first requirement?


Not necessarily. Moss would be a legitimate choice in the top 10.

He doesn't appear on the top 10 lists that I've seen recently in respect to majority opinion.


AUTOSPORT invited drivers who have raced in the Formula 1 world championship (including those who raced under F2 rules in 1952-1953) to vote for their top 10 "greatest" drivers of the world championship era.

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8

Yeah, I mentioned that before, Poker didn't like it!

I actually missed read it and now have posted again about it.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:59 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

AUTOSPORT invited drivers who have raced in the Formula 1 world championship (including those who raced under F2 rules in 1952-1953) to vote for their top 10 "greatest" drivers of the world championship era.

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8

Yeah, I mentioned that before, Poker didn't like it!


To be fair he did say recently and since that was published a decade ago we have had a 4 times and a 5 times WDC. And some would even argue at this early stage that Max is there or thereabouts.


If Vettel and Hamilton jump ahead of him then Moss is still top 10 in that list. And it is recent in context.

Would Alonso have been included if it dates back to 2008?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:01 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

AUTOSPORT invited drivers who have raced in the Formula 1 world championship (including those who raced under F2 rules in 1952-1953) to vote for their top 10 "greatest" drivers of the world championship era.

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8

Yeah, I mentioned that before, Poker didn't like it!


To be fair he did say recently and since that was published a decade ago we have had a 4 times and a 5 times WDC. And some would even argue at this early stage that Max is there or thereabouts.


Not really, this is what I replied to:

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Moss is an all time great imo and many other people's. This shows that the number of WECs a driver has is not the be all and end all.

How many people have Moss in their top 10?

Would this count?

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8


It does not say recently.

And obviously, the later you make this kind of list, the different the drivers will be. In 50 years from now (exaggeration obviously) Prost or other drivers may only be a whisper, as newer drivers may have won many more GP's by that time.

However, drivers themselves ranked Moss in the top 10, not so long ago, so if that doesn't hold any water in Poker's agenda, then fine. For me it is much more relevant.

How does the thread not relate to the here and now?

_________________
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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:04 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Todd wrote:
And if you think anyone is driving at his pre-retirement level today, then I can see why the FIA thinks DRS, multiple tire compound requirements, fuel use regs, and engine life standards that have most racing done at several seconds off the cars' natural paces are what the fans deserve. There's nobody today that could drop a TdF bicycle racer in the Alps because his training level was so high, or play pickup football with the German national team, or get out of a car looking like he'd just played chess when all the other drivers looked like they'd just been released from a tiger cage in the jungle.

You're welcome to your opinion, but I think this is almost universally considered false by the F1 community itself. Schumacher is considered to have been the pioneer of modern fitness, not a level beyond the current grid. The reason Schumi looked so much better in comparison to his peers is that they weren't at the fitness level of modern drivers while he was. He was ahead of his time, not ahead of the current time.


Schumacher wasn't the pioneer of fitness. I've watched since 1976 and any number of drivers used fitness as a competitive factor even then. Lewis Hamilton spends too much time with Tommy Hilfiger and his hair dresser to have a shot at matching Schumacher in the gym. Schumacher wasn't just the fittest F1 driver, he was a guy who could show up professional athletes in their own areas of expertise. His commitment to training was complete. When Schumacher was at his best, refueling and hard grooved tires meant that every race was a series of sprints between refueling stops. It was nothing like today, where the drivers are just managing their fragile tires, managing their restricted fuel loads, and managing a power-limited drivetrain so it lasts a third of the season. It's the difference between racing and commuting. It also isn't just like he was the fittest driver in 1991. The competition had fifteen years to notice what he was doing and try to match it. Nobody could and nobody has come close since.

You must not have watched the last race were Hamilton was doing qualifying laps lap after lap late in the race to catch Verstappen.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:07 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

AUTOSPORT invited drivers who have raced in the Formula 1 world championship (including those who raced under F2 rules in 1952-1953) to vote for their top 10 "greatest" drivers of the world championship era.

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8

Yeah, I mentioned that before, Poker didn't like it!


To be fair he did say recently and since that was published a decade ago we have had a 4 times and a 5 times WDC. And some would even argue at this early stage that Max is there or thereabouts.


If Vettel and Hamilton jump ahead of him then Moss is still top 10 in that list. And it is recent in context.

Would Alonso have been included if it dates back to 2008?


He is. I checked. I don't think many people would put Vettel ahead of Moss anyway so that's a bit of an assumption as well.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:10 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Yeah, I mentioned that before, Poker didn't like it!


To be fair he did say recently and since that was published a decade ago we have had a 4 times and a 5 times WDC. And some would even argue at this early stage that Max is there or thereabouts.


If Vettel and Hamilton jump ahead of him then Moss is still top 10 in that list. And it is recent in context.

Would Alonso have been included if it dates back to 2008?


He is. I checked. I don't think many people would put Vettel ahead of Moss anyway so that's a bit of an assumption as well.

What was the list if you don't mind?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:15 pm 
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1. Senna
2. Schumacher
3. Fangio
4. Prost
5. Clark
6. Stewart
7. Lauda
8. Moss
9. Alonso
10. Villeneuve


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
1. Senna
2. Schumacher
3. Fangio
4. Prost
5. Clark
6. Stewart
7. Lauda
8. Moss
9. Alonso
10. Villeneuve

Gilles Villenueve?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:22 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
1. Senna
2. Schumacher
3. Fangio
4. Prost
5. Clark
6. Stewart
7. Lauda
8. Moss
9. Alonso
10. Villeneuve

Gilles Villenueve?

:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:25 pm 
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Posts: 33076
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
1. Senna
2. Schumacher
3. Fangio
4. Prost
5. Clark
6. Stewart
7. Lauda
8. Moss
9. Alonso
10. Villeneuve

Gilles Villenueve?

:thumbup:

Cheers :thumbup:

This pre dates lists that I have seen in recent years which would have been on forums.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:28 pm 
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Posts: 7728
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

AUTOSPORT invited drivers who have raced in the Formula 1 world championship (including those who raced under F2 rules in 1952-1953) to vote for their top 10 "greatest" drivers of the world championship era.

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8

Yeah, I mentioned that before, Poker didn't like it!


To be fair he did say recently and since that was published a decade ago we have had a 4 times and a 5 times WDC. And some would even argue at this early stage that Max is there or thereabouts.


Not really, this is what I replied to:

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Moss is an all time great imo and many other people's. This shows that the number of WECs a driver has is not the be all and end all.

How many people have Moss in their top 10?

Would this count?

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8


It does not say recently.

And obviously, the later you make this kind of list, the different the drivers will be. In 50 years from now (exaggeration obviously) Prost or other drivers may only be a whisper, as newer drivers may have won many more GP's by that time.

However, drivers themselves ranked Moss in the top 10, not so long ago, so if that doesn't hold any water in Poker's agenda, then fine. For me it is much more relevant.

How does the thread not relate to the here and now?

I do not understand what you mean. It makes no sense


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:17 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

AUTOSPORT invited drivers who have raced in the Formula 1 world championship (including those who raced under F2 rules in 1952-1953) to vote for their top 10 "greatest" drivers of the world championship era.

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8

Yeah, I mentioned that before, Poker didn't like it!


To be fair he did say recently and since that was published a decade ago we have had a 4 times and a 5 times WDC. And some would even argue at this early stage that Max is there or thereabouts.


Not really, this is what I replied to:

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Moss is an all time great imo and many other people's. This shows that the number of WECs a driver has is not the be all and end all.

How many people have Moss in their top 10?

Would this count?

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8


It does not say recently.

And obviously, the later you make this kind of list, the different the drivers will be. In 50 years from now (exaggeration obviously) Prost or other drivers may only be a whisper, as newer drivers may have won many more GP's by that time.

However, drivers themselves ranked Moss in the top 10, not so long ago, so if that doesn't hold any water in Poker's agenda, then fine. For me it is much more relevant.


It doesn't but Poker does. Hence the Autosport list being linked in the first place. Given Alonso's career since this decade old list (or not so long ago in your parlance) and what he has done since I would assume he still ranks below Moss?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
1. Senna
2. Schumacher
3. Fangio
4. Prost
5. Clark
6. Stewart
7. Lauda
8. Moss
9. Alonso
10. Villeneuve

Gilles Villenueve?

:thumbup:

Cheers :thumbup:

This pre dates lists that I have seen in recent years which would have been on forums.


Hamilton ranked 17th. Vettel 26th.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:26 pm 
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Posts: 33076
shoot999 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
1. Senna
2. Schumacher
3. Fangio
4. Prost
5. Clark
6. Stewart
7. Lauda
8. Moss
9. Alonso
10. Villeneuve

Gilles Villenueve?

:thumbup:

Cheers :thumbup:

This pre dates lists that I have seen in recent years which would have been on forums.


Hamilton ranked 17th. Vettel 26th.

They obviously wouldn't rate as low now, I would still presume that Moss would struggle to make a top 10 list as of today?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:

Hamilton ranked 17th. Vettel 26th.

They obviously wouldn't rate as low now, I would still presume that Moss would struggle to make a top 10 list as of today?


Depends where you put Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton. According to the list Alonso is below Moss, so I assume; as I said earlier, Alonso would remain below Moss given his career since this list was published.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Gilles Villenueve?

:thumbup:

Cheers :thumbup:

This pre dates lists that I have seen in recent years which would have been on forums.


Hamilton ranked 17th. Vettel 26th.

They obviously wouldn't rate as low now, I would still presume that Moss would struggle to make a top 10 list as of today?


Even if he's making the top 12 then surely it can't be unreasonable to think a non world champion could be rated in the top 10.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:46 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:

Hamilton ranked 17th. Vettel 26th.

They obviously wouldn't rate as low now, I would still presume that Moss would struggle to make a top 10 list as of today?


Depends where you put Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton. According to the list Alonso is below Moss, so I assume; as I said earlier, Alonso would remain below Moss given his career since this list was published.

The list is clearly incomplete to how it relates to active drivers, Alonso at 9, Hamilton at 17 yet to all intent and purposes Hamilton at least matched Alonso in 2007, did this drag Alonso's rating down given that Hamilton stands only at 17?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:51 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
:thumbup:

Cheers :thumbup:

This pre dates lists that I have seen in recent years which would have been on forums.


Hamilton ranked 17th. Vettel 26th.

They obviously wouldn't rate as low now, I would still presume that Moss would struggle to make a top 10 list as of today?


Even if he's making the top 12 then surely it can't be unreasonable to think a non world champion could be rated in the top 10.

No I think it shows how harder it gets for a none champion to get into the list the more multiple champions that are created, Moss was an early pioneer, a driver today I would say will not make the top 10 list.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:54 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

AUTOSPORT invited drivers who have raced in the Formula 1 world championship (including those who raced under F2 rules in 1952-1953) to vote for their top 10 "greatest" drivers of the world championship era.

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8

Yeah, I mentioned that before, Poker didn't like it!


To be fair he did say recently and since that was published a decade ago we have had a 4 times and a 5 times WDC. And some would even argue at this early stage that Max is there or thereabouts.


Not really, this is what I replied to:

Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Moss is an all time great imo and many other people's. This shows that the number of WECs a driver has is not the be all and end all.

How many people have Moss in their top 10?

Would this count?

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8


It does not say recently.

And obviously, the later you make this kind of list, the different the drivers will be. In 50 years from now (exaggeration obviously) Prost or other drivers may only be a whisper, as newer drivers may have won many more GP's by that time.

However, drivers themselves ranked Moss in the top 10, not so long ago, so if that doesn't hold any water in Poker's agenda, then fine. For me it is much more relevant.


It doesn't but Poker does. Hence the Autosport list being linked in the first place. Given Alonso's career since this decade old list (or not so long ago in your parlance) and what he has done since I would assume he still ranks below Moss?


No, he really didn't, I even quoted it for you. Here, I'll put it outside the quotes:

"pokerman"
How many people have Moss in their top 10?


This is the original quote to which I replied.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:01 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:

This is the original quote to which I replied.


And the start of the side thread 'He doesn't appear on the top 10 lists that I've seen recently in respect to majority opinion.'

Edit: Have just gone though the whole of the thread again and found your original-So my apologies.

Did you know that list was a decade old when you linked it?


Last edited by shoot999 on Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:05 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
To be fair he did say recently and since that was published a decade ago we have had a 4 times and a 5 times WDC. And some would even argue at this early stage that Max is there or thereabouts.


Not really, this is what I replied to:


It does not say recently.

And obviously, the later you make this kind of list, the different the drivers will be. In 50 years from now (exaggeration obviously) Prost or other drivers may only be a whisper, as newer drivers may have won many more GP's by that time.

However, drivers themselves ranked Moss in the top 10, not so long ago, so if that doesn't hold any water in Poker's agenda, then fine. For me it is much more relevant.


It doesn't but Poker does. Hence the Autosport list being linked in the first place. Given Alonso's career since this decade old list (or not so long ago in your parlance) and what he has done since I would assume he still ranks below Moss?


No, he really didn't, I even quoted it for you. Here, I'll put it outside the quotes:

"pokerman"
How many people have Moss in their top 10?


This is the original quote to which I replied.

This is starting to get a bit silly now, why not produce an article from 1990 to disprove what I said, do you understand?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:44 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

This is the original quote to which I replied.


And the start of the side thread 'He doesn't appear on the top 10 lists that I've seen recently in respect to majority opinion.'

Edit: Have just gone though the whole of the thread again and found your original-So my apologies.

Did you know that list was a decade old when you linked it?


That's fine, I just wanted to point out that I didn't just come up with a random list. I did not check the date of the list, since the question was if he was sported at anyone's top 10.

I agree that the timing is important, the list is not from the last 10 years, but it is not that old either. Maybe a couple of drivers have moved up in the meantime. Still, this is a driver's choice, and it has a different gravity in this matter. Maybe they are romantic, maybe they felt they can't vote for themselves. The result is the same, Moss was voted in top 10 lists.

I think we have derailed this enough now, just answering one silly question!


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
To be fair he did say recently and since that was published a decade ago we have had a 4 times and a 5 times WDC. And some would even argue at this early stage that Max is there or thereabouts.


Not really, this is what I replied to:


It does not say recently.

And obviously, the later you make this kind of list, the different the drivers will be. In 50 years from now (exaggeration obviously) Prost or other drivers may only be a whisper, as newer drivers may have won many more GP's by that time.

However, drivers themselves ranked Moss in the top 10, not so long ago, so if that doesn't hold any water in Poker's agenda, then fine. For me it is much more relevant.


It doesn't but Poker does. Hence the Autosport list being linked in the first place. Given Alonso's career since this decade old list (or not so long ago in your parlance) and what he has done since I would assume he still ranks below Moss?


No, he really didn't, I even quoted it for you. Here, I'll put it outside the quotes:

"pokerman"
How many people have Moss in their top 10?


This is the original quote to which I replied.

This is starting to get a bit silly now, why not produce an article from 1990 to disprove what I said, do you understand?

What I understand perfectly is that you don't want to agree that people may have Moss in their top 10, for reasons that only you know


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:08 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

AUTOSPORT invited drivers who have raced in the Formula 1 world championship (including those who raced under F2 rules in 1952-1953) to vote for their top 10 "greatest" drivers of the world championship era.

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8

Yeah, I mentioned that before, Poker didn't like it!


To be fair he did say recently and since that was published a decade ago we have had a 4 times and a 5 times WDC. And some would even argue at this early stage that Max is there or thereabouts.


If Vettel and Hamilton jump ahead of him then Moss is still top 10 in that list. And it is recent in context.


:thumbup: Exactly

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:10 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

Not really, this is what I replied to:


It does not say recently.

And obviously, the later you make this kind of list, the different the drivers will be. In 50 years from now (exaggeration obviously) Prost or other drivers may only be a whisper, as newer drivers may have won many more GP's by that time.

However, drivers themselves ranked Moss in the top 10, not so long ago, so if that doesn't hold any water in Poker's agenda, then fine. For me it is much more relevant.


It doesn't but Poker does. Hence the Autosport list being linked in the first place. Given Alonso's career since this decade old list (or not so long ago in your parlance) and what he has done since I would assume he still ranks below Moss?


No, he really didn't, I even quoted it for you. Here, I'll put it outside the quotes:

"pokerman"
How many people have Moss in their top 10?


This is the original quote to which I replied.

This is starting to get a bit silly now, why not produce an article from 1990 to disprove what I said, do you understand?

What I understand perfectly is that you don't want to agree that people may have Moss in their top 10, for reasons that only you know


And even if 7 drivers jumped ahead of him if it were updated, it still puts him in 15th place without a WDC. Again, as the reason I mentioned him a long time ago, it shows that numbers of WDCs is not the be all and end all.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:18 pm 
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Todd wrote:
You guys don't think it is relevant because you don't know what Schumacher was really like compared to Zoolander. When Schumacher first came to Spa with Jordan, there was nobody to take him around the track in those days before simulators and accurate video games. So he pulled his bicycle out of his suitcase and learned the track on that before opening everyone's eyes with his qualifying lap in an unspectacular Jordan. He then spent his first partial season retiring three-time WDC Nelson Piquet, a guy who is apparently outside of the knowledge base of the commentariat here, which I find disgraceful.


So what relevance does Hamilton spending time with Tommy Hilfiger and his hair dresser have to do with how he compares to Schumacher?

You could easily make arguments about why Schumacher > Hamilton without getting personal like you have.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
You must not have watched the last race were Hamilton was doing qualifying laps lap after lap late in the race to catch Verstappen.


He really wasn't. Had Hamilton driven just one lap on the limit he'd have killed his tires and had no chance of catching Verstappen. There are skills involved in accomplishing what Hamilton has, they just aren't that spectacular or athletic.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 8:41 pm 
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Todd wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You must not have watched the last race were Hamilton was doing qualifying laps lap after lap late in the race to catch Verstappen.


He really wasn't. Had Hamilton driven just one lap on the limit he'd have killed his tires and had no chance of catching Verstappen. There are skills involved in accomplishing what Hamilton has, they just aren't that spectacular or athletic.


Yep. I think we could also argue that Max was driving more on the limit than LH because he was trying as hard as possible to not allow LH to catch him and had knackered tyres which increases the risk of crashing.

Horses for courses.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:48 pm 
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Todd wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You must not have watched the last race were Hamilton was doing qualifying laps lap after lap late in the race to catch Verstappen.


He really wasn't. Had Hamilton driven just one lap on the limit he'd have killed his tires and had no chance of catching Verstappen. There are skills involved in accomplishing what Hamilton has, they just aren't that spectacular or athletic.

You don't know what you're talking about. One of the biggest reasons why there are big differences between lap times in Q3 and the race is that the engines are in a completely different mode in Q3. Not just the combustion engines mind you; the batteries are the main culprit. You cannot deploy power from the battery throughout the race in anywhere near the way you can in Q3. Not without having to do one lap on and then two laps of recharging. There's probably a second and a half in the engine mode alone. That's not to even mention the fuel loads; which add several seconds per lap depending on what point in the race you're at. Anytime you don't have refueling, you have big gaps between qualifying and race lap times. Yes, you have to mind the tires but not nearly as much as you're suggesting. This isn't 2013 anymore. When Verstappen pit late in the race, he came out and did a lap just 2.5 seconds down on the pole time and that's certainly not using a Q3 engine mode.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:13 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
You don't know what you're talking about.


Such is life. You're entitled to your opinion. At least you're not being willfully ignorant about a topic of any existential importance. Thanks for listing reasons why Hamilton wasn't driving on the limit to make my point for me. You definitely helped to clarify my point about F1 racing today being a hobbled expression of addled priorities.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:23 am 
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Todd wrote:
You guys don't think it is relevant because you don't know what Schumacher was really like compared to Zoolander. When Schumacher first came to Spa with Jordan, there was nobody to take him around the track in those days before simulators and accurate video games. So he pulled his bicycle out of his suitcase and learned the track on that before opening everyone's eyes with his qualifying lap in an unspectacular Jordan. He then spent his first partial season retiring three-time WDC Nelson Piquet, a guy who is apparently outside of the knowledge base of the commentariat here, which I find disgraceful.

I directly mentioned Piquet in my post.

Exediron wrote:
I put Vettel in the same category as Piquet; a pile of titles, but I don't consider him quite equal to the great drivers of his era.

I am aware of him. I consider him a driver who won his titles because of having the best car - much like Vettel.

Additionally - as I'm sure you're aware - Piquet was never the same driver after the crash that partially destroyed his vision. Schumi beating him in his rookie season is impressive, but doesn't mean that he would have done the same to Piquet at his peak.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:55 am 
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Whatever angle you're arguing from, you should pretty much assign as much value to the vanquishing of Piquet by Schumacher, as you would to Schumacher's own vanquishing by Rosberg. I'm fine with you putting either all or nothing on it, just beware that the two are basically syllogistically linked and assigning one or the other significance to them might undermine your whole polemical edifice 8)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:14 am 
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Todd wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
You don't know what you're talking about.


Such is life. You're entitled to your opinion. At least you're not being willfully ignorant about a topic of any existential importance. Thanks for listing reasons why Hamilton wasn't driving on the limit to make my point for me. You definitely helped to clarify my point about F1 racing today being a hobbled expression of addled priorities.

The limit is not static nor is it universal. The limit of an ultra light car with the engine running in a rich and unsustainable mode and the battery fully charged along with the softest compound tire will produce significantly faster lap times than the limit with the engine running in a mode that can be sustained for many laps and the car on a harder tire compound. If you think Hamilton was just going for a Sunday drive as he ran down Verstappen at the end of that race, you don't know what you were watching.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:34 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Todd wrote:
You guys don't think it is relevant because you don't know what Schumacher was really like compared to Zoolander. When Schumacher first came to Spa with Jordan, there was nobody to take him around the track in those days before simulators and accurate video games. So he pulled his bicycle out of his suitcase and learned the track on that before opening everyone's eyes with his qualifying lap in an unspectacular Jordan. He then spent his first partial season retiring three-time WDC Nelson Piquet, a guy who is apparently outside of the knowledge base of the commentariat here, which I find disgraceful.

I directly mentioned Piquet in my post.

Exediron wrote:
I put Vettel in the same category as Piquet; a pile of titles, but I don't consider him quite equal to the great drivers of his era.

I am aware of him. I consider him a driver who won his titles because of having the best car - much like Vettel.

Additionally - as I'm sure you're aware - Piquet was never the same driver after the crash that partially destroyed his vision. Schumi beating him in his rookie season is impressive, but doesn't mean that he would have done the same to Piquet at his peak.


For someone who actually watched the early '80s of F1, the idea that Piquet won because those Brabhams and Williams were the best
cars is one of the more ridiculous ideas ever given form. Even 1991 Piquet would have made a mockery of the drivers who rely on mangers to avoid embarrassment today. Has Gasly not had a sufficient chance? HAHAHAHAHHAHA! Should Hamilton cry about how tough it is to do no worse of a job than is expected of his competitors in the lesser cars chasing him? HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHA!!!! Piquet would have had anyone only five times as strong a man as Hamilton crying in his Monaco condo like Senna.

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