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Vettel Top-Ten ATG yes or no and all that...
Yes 18%  18%  [ 12 ]
No 82%  82%  [ 53 ]
Total votes : 65
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:41 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
1. Senna
2. Schumacher
3. Fangio
4. Prost
5. Clark
6. Stewart
7. Lauda
8. Moss
9. Alonso
10. Villeneuve


Why Villeneuve? To quote myself from elsewhere, "this is a professional who died at 32 still lacking in any sophistication whatever as a grand prix driver (race management completely questionable, error rate through the roof, etc.)". Even had he lived, I think his career would have come to nothing by the mid-eighties, with perhaps a single title in hand. He would then more clearly appear to be what he actually was: a faster, more spectacular Keke Rosberg, with class-leading car control and derring-do, and nothing else; and I don't even know if Keke is top-30.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:07 am 
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breathemyexhaust wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
1. Senna
2. Schumacher
3. Fangio
4. Prost
5. Clark
6. Stewart
7. Lauda
8. Moss
9. Alonso
10. Villeneuve


Why Villeneuve? To quote myself from elsewhere, "this is a professional who died at 32 still lacking in any sophistication whatever as a grand prix driver (race management completely questionable, error rate through the roof, etc.)". Even had he lived, I think his career would have come to nothing by the mid-eighties, with perhaps a single title in hand. He would then more clearly appear to be what he actually was: a faster, more spectacular Keke Rosberg, with class-leading car control and derring-do, and nothing else; and I don't even know if Keke is top-30.


I've no idea it's not my list. It was voted for by drivers.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:40 pm 
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I'd still have Fangio 1st - won in conditions where a single mistake would kill (and he lost a season with a nearly fatal injury in 1952 - but he did things way beyond his team mates - consistently and across multiple racing formula (not just F1) - and did it at an age when most would have nearly retired when he started.
He won in three different marques - five titles in 7 years racing (and just second for another) on skinny tyres, manual gears, being own mechanic and with little input from pits on strategy- if other modern drivers were racing in that era - they'd likely be (and unfortunately) DEAD. Thank you Jackie Stewart!!! Same for Ascari -who died too soon

Senna - fast but inconsistent - if not for imola probably would have won 1994 and who knows beyond that - which would have increased his record - at the expense of Schumacher - many flaws as well as greatness - still don't believe 1994 is a legitimate WDC given car illegal, refueling illegal and last race tactics IMO illegal - no true F1 fan can suggest this is a legitimate WDC (IMO) - for me it was cheating and history has proven me right! - and then 1995 and subsequent championships depended on that 1994 result - after saying that - he clearly was a man that the team gelled around, he did amazing things and while some of his race tactics were questionable - including being subsequently banned afterwards - he deserves to be top 10 all time - just not top 5.

Others like Clark went too soon - what would we say if they had the safety we have today?

Lauda - won 3 - probably should have won 4 - and again career ended earlier than current drivers

Where is Brabham - won three - could have won 5 with a bit of luck - the ONLY driver to have designed a car and run the team AND driven - to a WDC and nearly two others. Revolutionised F1 with first rear wing - and did more than any driver alone on aerodynamics - he is TOP 3 in any F1 fan book - oh sorry, he's just an Australian so apparently doesn't count where so many European drivers (in particular) get a free ride to drives even if they weren't the best and never did any car development?

If we're counting influence on the sport, revolutions, safety etc - as noted count Stewart in:

Fango
Brabham
Stewart
Prost
Senna
Lauda
Clark
Schumacher
Moss
Alonso
Ascari


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:55 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Not really, this is what I replied to:


It does not say recently.

And obviously, the later you make this kind of list, the different the drivers will be. In 50 years from now (exaggeration obviously) Prost or other drivers may only be a whisper, as newer drivers may have won many more GP's by that time.

However, drivers themselves ranked Moss in the top 10, not so long ago, so if that doesn't hold any water in Poker's agenda, then fine. For me it is much more relevant.


It doesn't but Poker does. Hence the Autosport list being linked in the first place. Given Alonso's career since this decade old list (or not so long ago in your parlance) and what he has done since I would assume he still ranks below Moss?


No, he really didn't, I even quoted it for you. Here, I'll put it outside the quotes:

"pokerman"
How many people have Moss in their top 10?


This is the original quote to which I replied.

This is starting to get a bit silly now, why not produce an article from 1990 to disprove what I said, do you understand?

What I understand perfectly is that you don't want to agree that people may have Moss in their top 10, for reasons that only you know

So if 10 out of a 100 have Moss in their top 10 that disproves what I said about the majority would not have Moss in their top 10?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:56 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
It doesn't but Poker does. Hence the Autosport list being linked in the first place. Given Alonso's career since this decade old list (or not so long ago in your parlance) and what he has done since I would assume he still ranks below Moss?


No, he really didn't, I even quoted it for you. Here, I'll put it outside the quotes:

"pokerman"
How many people have Moss in their top 10?


This is the original quote to which I replied.

This is starting to get a bit silly now, why not produce an article from 1990 to disprove what I said, do you understand?

What I understand perfectly is that you don't want to agree that people may have Moss in their top 10, for reasons that only you know


And even if 7 drivers jumped ahead of him if it were updated, it still puts him in 15th place without a WDC. Again, as the reason I mentioned him a long time ago, it shows that numbers of WDCs is not the be all and end all.

The thread is about the top 10, what I said relates to the top 10 not the top 15.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:59 pm 
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Todd wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You must not have watched the last race were Hamilton was doing qualifying laps lap after lap late in the race to catch Verstappen.


He really wasn't. Had Hamilton driven just one lap on the limit he'd have killed his tires and had no chance of catching Verstappen. There are skills involved in accomplishing what Hamilton has, they just aren't that spectacular or athletic.

So Hamilton must have lied?

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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:59 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Todd wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You must not have watched the last race were Hamilton was doing qualifying laps lap after lap late in the race to catch Verstappen.


He really wasn't. Had Hamilton driven just one lap on the limit he'd have killed his tires and had no chance of catching Verstappen. There are skills involved in accomplishing what Hamilton has, they just aren't that spectacular or athletic.


Yep. I think we could also argue that Max was driving more on the limit than LH because he was trying as hard as possible to not allow LH to catch him and had knackered tyres which increases the risk of crashing.

Horses for courses.

Yes just a simple cruise for Hamilton. :uhoh:

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:06 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Todd wrote:
You guys don't think it is relevant because you don't know what Schumacher was really like compared to Zoolander. When Schumacher first came to Spa with Jordan, there was nobody to take him around the track in those days before simulators and accurate video games. So he pulled his bicycle out of his suitcase and learned the track on that before opening everyone's eyes with his qualifying lap in an unspectacular Jordan. He then spent his first partial season retiring three-time WDC Nelson Piquet, a guy who is apparently outside of the knowledge base of the commentariat here, which I find disgraceful.

I directly mentioned Piquet in my post.

Exediron wrote:
I put Vettel in the same category as Piquet; a pile of titles, but I don't consider him quite equal to the great drivers of his era.

I am aware of him. I consider him a driver who won his titles because of having the best car - much like Vettel.

Additionally - as I'm sure you're aware - Piquet was never the same driver after the crash that partially destroyed his vision. Schumi beating him in his rookie season is impressive, but doesn't mean that he would have done the same to Piquet at his peak.

Even back then I was comparing qualifying times but even with all of that Schumacher was just 2 tenths quicker, but then I guess you have to balance the fact that with Piquet being past his best Schumacher himself was a rookie, bottom line I guess is that you can't read too much into things either way?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:13 pm 
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breathemyexhaust wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
1. Senna
2. Schumacher
3. Fangio
4. Prost
5. Clark
6. Stewart
7. Lauda
8. Moss
9. Alonso
10. Villeneuve


Why Villeneuve? To quote myself from elsewhere, "this is a professional who died at 32 still lacking in any sophistication whatever as a grand prix driver (race management completely questionable, error rate through the roof, etc.)". Even had he lived, I think his career would have come to nothing by the mid-eighties, with perhaps a single title in hand. He would then more clearly appear to be what he actually was: a faster, more spectacular Keke Rosberg, with class-leading car control and derring-do, and nothing else; and I don't even know if Keke is top-30.

I vaguely recall Gilles Villenueve as at that time F1 was more of a curiosity but I remember him being portrayed as the crazy wild man of F1, it's only afterwards that I became aware that there was more to him then that but like you say he was 32 with no titles.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Todd wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You must not have watched the last race were Hamilton was doing qualifying laps lap after lap late in the race to catch Verstappen.


He really wasn't. Had Hamilton driven just one lap on the limit he'd have killed his tires and had no chance of catching Verstappen. There are skills involved in accomplishing what Hamilton has, they just aren't that spectacular or athletic.


Yep. I think we could also argue that Max was driving more on the limit than LH because he was trying as hard as possible to not allow LH to catch him and had knackered tyres which increases the risk of crashing.

Horses for courses.

Yes just a simple cruise for Hamilton. :uhoh:


If you wish to be taken seriously on this forum, you should quit inferring utter nonsense from what others have written and attempting also to mock other people's opinions by using silly smilies. Either that or point out where I in anyway inferred it was a simple cruise for Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:54 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:

It doesn't but Poker does. Hence the Autosport list being linked in the first place. Given Alonso's career since this decade old list (or not so long ago in your parlance) and what he has done since I would assume he still ranks below Moss?


No, he really didn't, I even quoted it for you. Here, I'll put it outside the quotes:

"pokerman"
How many people have Moss in their top 10?


This is the original quote to which I replied.

This is starting to get a bit silly now, why not produce an article from 1990 to disprove what I said, do you understand?

What I understand perfectly is that you don't want to agree that people may have Moss in their top 10, for reasons that only you know

So if 10 out of a 100 have Moss in their top 10 that disproves what I said about the majority would not have Moss in their top 10?

Nice try, you only said "How many people have Moss in their top 10?". Even if you are true and most people do not have Moss in their personal top 10, what is your beef with it? Why does it bother you so much that someone rates a driver so much to include them in the list even without winning a WDC?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:12 pm 
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The cars Schumacher drove can't compare to these ones, the cars Schumacher was in during the late 90's are about 6-8 seconds per lap slower. Similar to current F2 cars. The physical demand is much higher now.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:14 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

AUTOSPORT invited drivers who have raced in the Formula 1 world championship (including those who raced under F2 rules in 1952-1953) to vote for their top 10 "greatest" drivers of the world championship era.

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8

Yeah, I mentioned that before, Poker didn't like it!


To be fair he did say recently and since that was published a decade ago we have had a 4 times and a 5 times WDC. And some would even argue at this early stage that Max is there or thereabouts.


If Vettel and Hamilton jump ahead of him then Moss is still top 10 in that list. And it is recent in context.


:thumbup: Exactly


So we accept that Alonso remains below Moss on the list? Not that I would argue with that, but some might.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:20 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Todd wrote:
pokerman wrote:
You must not have watched the last race were Hamilton was doing qualifying laps lap after lap late in the race to catch Verstappen.


He really wasn't. Had Hamilton driven just one lap on the limit he'd have killed his tires and had no chance of catching Verstappen. There are skills involved in accomplishing what Hamilton has, they just aren't that spectacular or athletic.


Yep. I think we could also argue that Max was driving more on the limit than LH because he was trying as hard as possible to not allow LH to catch him and had knackered tyres which increases the risk of crashing.

Horses for courses.

Yes just a simple cruise for Hamilton. :uhoh:


If you wish to be taken seriously on this forum, you should quit inferring utter nonsense from what others have written and attempting also to mock other people's opinions by using silly smilies. Either that or point out where I in anyway inferred it was a simple cruise for Hamilton.

How am I supposed to read into a post that Verstappen was more on the limit than Hamilton, it's nothing short of looking to down play Hamilton's performance.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:22 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
No, he really didn't, I even quoted it for you. Here, I'll put it outside the quotes:

"pokerman"
How many people have Moss in their top 10?


This is the original quote to which I replied.

This is starting to get a bit silly now, why not produce an article from 1990 to disprove what I said, do you understand?

What I understand perfectly is that you don't want to agree that people may have Moss in their top 10, for reasons that only you know

So if 10 out of a 100 have Moss in their top 10 that disproves what I said about the majority would not have Moss in their top 10?

Nice try, you only said "How many people have Moss in their top 10?". Even if you are true and most people do not have Moss in their personal top 10, what is your beef with it? Why does it bother you so much that someone rates a driver so much to include them in the list even without winning a WDC?

I have no beef with people's opinions, the problem seems more about reading into something that I didn't say and then me having to explain myself.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
This is starting to get a bit silly now, why not produce an article from 1990 to disprove what I said, do you understand?

What I understand perfectly is that you don't want to agree that people may have Moss in their top 10, for reasons that only you know

So if 10 out of a 100 have Moss in their top 10 that disproves what I said about the majority would not have Moss in their top 10?

Nice try, you only said "How many people have Moss in their top 10?". Even if you are true and most people do not have Moss in their personal top 10, what is your beef with it? Why does it bother you so much that someone rates a driver so much to include them in the list even without winning a WDC?

I have no beef with people's opinions, the problem seems more about reading into something that I didn't say and then me having to explain myself.

What is that?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:37 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
What I understand perfectly is that you don't want to agree that people may have Moss in their top 10, for reasons that only you know

So if 10 out of a 100 have Moss in their top 10 that disproves what I said about the majority would not have Moss in their top 10?

Nice try, you only said "How many people have Moss in their top 10?". Even if you are true and most people do not have Moss in their personal top 10, what is your beef with it? Why does it bother you so much that someone rates a driver so much to include them in the list even without winning a WDC?

I have no beef with people's opinions, the problem seems more about reading into something that I didn't say and then me having to explain myself.

What is that?

Like me saying "How many people have Moss in their top 10" which you just quoted.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:50 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Todd wrote:

He really wasn't. Had Hamilton driven just one lap on the limit he'd have killed his tires and had no chance of catching Verstappen. There are skills involved in accomplishing what Hamilton has, they just aren't that spectacular or athletic.


Yep. I think we could also argue that Max was driving more on the limit than LH because he was trying as hard as possible to not allow LH to catch him and had knackered tyres which increases the risk of crashing.

Horses for courses.

Yes just a simple cruise for Hamilton. :uhoh:


If you wish to be taken seriously on this forum, you should quit inferring utter nonsense from what others have written and attempting also to mock other people's opinions by using silly smilies. Either that or point out where I in anyway inferred it was a simple cruise for Hamilton.

How am I supposed to read into a post that Verstappen was more on the limit than Hamilton, it's nothing short of looking to down play Hamilton's performance.


Nobody has looked down on Hamilton's performance at all. What's being offered as a alternative to any claim that LH drove quali lap after quali lap, was the view that on older tyres and knowing LH was hauling him in, Max had to drive flat out knowing his tyres were far more worn out which could cause them to go off the cliff and basically lead to a mistake more easily than in LH's case.

LH drove brilliantly and I haven't really read another view to that. Max drove brilliantly too, possible better or at least equally good. We'll never know.

Of course, I know this doesn't suit your persistent cause to put Hamilton above and beyond in everything he ever does, (I'm inferring here of course!) but you can simply roll your eyes again in order to get others to agree with you.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:50 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
So if 10 out of a 100 have Moss in their top 10 that disproves what I said about the majority would not have Moss in their top 10?

Nice try, you only said "How many people have Moss in their top 10?". Even if you are true and most people do not have Moss in their personal top 10, what is your beef with it? Why does it bother you so much that someone rates a driver so much to include them in the list even without winning a WDC?

I have no beef with people's opinions, the problem seems more about reading into something that I didn't say and then me having to explain myself.

What is that?

Like me saying "How many people have Moss in their top 10" which you just quoted.


So you did say it???

I can't take this seriously man, I just can't. You asked who would have Moss in a list, people provided that and you still just arguing for the sake of arguing. I can't really argue anymore, you have the floor


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:52 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Yeah, I mentioned that before, Poker didn't like it!


To be fair he did say recently and since that was published a decade ago we have had a 4 times and a 5 times WDC. And some would even argue at this early stage that Max is there or thereabouts.


If Vettel and Hamilton jump ahead of him then Moss is still top 10 in that list. And it is recent in context.


:thumbup: Exactly


So we accept that Alonso remains below Moss on the list? Not that I would argue with that, but some might.


Some can accept that, some won't. That's the point of opinions and in fact my entire point of bring Moss up a few days ago.

I'm beginning to wish I hadn't!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:05 pm 
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Gilles has a 0% chance of touching my list and of course I have Alonso ahead of Moss. I also have Alonso ahead of Vettel.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:41 am 
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Ok, let's settle this Stirling Moss thing once and for all.

So we don't go off topic, I've started a separate thread for it...

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15654


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:11 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:

Nobody has looked down on Hamilton's performance at all. What's being offered as a alternative to any claim that LH drove quali lap after quali lap, was the view that on older tyres and knowing LH was hauling him in, Max had to drive flat out knowing his tyres were far more worn out which could cause them to go off the cliff and basically lead to a mistake more easily than in LH's case.

LH drove brilliantly and I haven't really read another view to that. Max drove brilliantly too, possible better or at least equally good. We'll never know.

Of course, I know this doesn't suit your persistent cause to put Hamilton above and beyond in everything he ever does, (I'm inferring here of course!) but you can simply roll your eyes again in order to get others to agree with you.



Or possibly worse.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:52 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Nice try, you only said "How many people have Moss in their top 10?". Even if you are true and most people do not have Moss in their personal top 10, what is your beef with it? Why does it bother you so much that someone rates a driver so much to include them in the list even without winning a WDC?

I have no beef with people's opinions, the problem seems more about reading into something that I didn't say and then me having to explain myself.

What is that?

Like me saying "How many people have Moss in their top 10" which you just quoted.


So you did say it???

I can't take this seriously man, I just can't. You asked who would have Moss in a list, people provided that and you still just arguing for the sake of arguing. I can't really argue anymore, you have the floor

You honestly believe that I believe that no one would have Moss on their top 10 list, Blake would attest that I know he for one does, I later did say that most wouldn't.

As luck would have it a thread got bumped a week ago on another forum from January asking people to list their top 10 drivers of all time, I obviously read that which formulated my opinion about Moss.

7 out of 30 people had Moss in their top 10s, then an overall resulting was made from 24 lists, the other didn't have a specific order, the result being:-

01. Senna 156
02. Hamilton 155
03. Schumacher 154
04. Prost 137
05. Clark 115
06. Fangio 113
07. Alonso 80
08. Stewart 55
09. Lauda 42
10. Vettel 39

Vettel in, Moss out.

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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Last edited by pokerman on Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:58 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Yep. I think we could also argue that Max was driving more on the limit than LH because he was trying as hard as possible to not allow LH to catch him and had knackered tyres which increases the risk of crashing.

Horses for courses.

Yes just a simple cruise for Hamilton. :uhoh:


If you wish to be taken seriously on this forum, you should quit inferring utter nonsense from what others have written and attempting also to mock other people's opinions by using silly smilies. Either that or point out where I in anyway inferred it was a simple cruise for Hamilton.

How am I supposed to read into a post that Verstappen was more on the limit than Hamilton, it's nothing short of looking to down play Hamilton's performance.


Nobody has looked down on Hamilton's performance at all. What's being offered as a alternative to any claim that LH drove quali lap after quali lap, was the view that on older tyres and knowing LH was hauling him in, Max had to drive flat out knowing his tyres were far more worn out which could cause them to go off the cliff and basically lead to a mistake more easily than in LH's case.

LH drove brilliantly and I haven't really read another view to that. Max drove brilliantly too, possible better or at least equally good. We'll never know.

Of course, I know this doesn't suit your persistent cause to put Hamilton above and beyond in everything he ever does, (I'm inferring here of course!) but you can simply roll your eyes again in order to get others to agree with you.

I'm clearly not looking to put Hamilton above Verstappen, Verstappen driving flat out is the same as Hamilton saying he was doing qualifying laps yet it's you who want to infer that Verstappen was driving harder/faster/better than Hamilton.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yes just a simple cruise for Hamilton. :uhoh:


If you wish to be taken seriously on this forum, you should quit inferring utter nonsense from what others have written and attempting also to mock other people's opinions by using silly smilies. Either that or point out where I in anyway inferred it was a simple cruise for Hamilton.

How am I supposed to read into a post that Verstappen was more on the limit than Hamilton, it's nothing short of looking to down play Hamilton's performance.


Nobody has looked down on Hamilton's performance at all. What's being offered as a alternative to any claim that LH drove quali lap after quali lap, was the view that on older tyres and knowing LH was hauling him in, Max had to drive flat out knowing his tyres were far more worn out which could cause them to go off the cliff and basically lead to a mistake more easily than in LH's case.

LH drove brilliantly and I haven't really read another view to that. Max drove brilliantly too, possible better or at least equally good. We'll never know.

Of course, I know this doesn't suit your persistent cause to put Hamilton above and beyond in everything he ever does, (I'm inferring here of course!) but you can simply roll your eyes again in order to get others to agree with you.

I'm clearly not looking to put Hamilton above Verstappen, Verstappen driving flat out is the same as Hamilton saying he was doing qualifying laps yet it's you who want to infer that Verstappen was driving harder/faster/better than Hamilton.


Possibly better or at least as well. Hardly inferring that Max WAS better.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:47 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
If you wish to be taken seriously on this forum, you should quit inferring utter nonsense from what others have written and attempting also to mock other people's opinions by using silly smilies. Either that or point out where I in anyway inferred it was a simple cruise for Hamilton.

How am I supposed to read into a post that Verstappen was more on the limit than Hamilton, it's nothing short of looking to down play Hamilton's performance.


Nobody has looked down on Hamilton's performance at all. What's being offered as a alternative to any claim that LH drove quali lap after quali lap, was the view that on older tyres and knowing LH was hauling him in, Max had to drive flat out knowing his tyres were far more worn out which could cause them to go off the cliff and basically lead to a mistake more easily than in LH's case.

LH drove brilliantly and I haven't really read another view to that. Max drove brilliantly too, possible better or at least equally good. We'll never know.

Of course, I know this doesn't suit your persistent cause to put Hamilton above and beyond in everything he ever does, (I'm inferring here of course!) but you can simply roll your eyes again in order to get others to agree with you.

I'm clearly not looking to put Hamilton above Verstappen, Verstappen driving flat out is the same as Hamilton saying he was doing qualifying laps yet it's you who want to infer that Verstappen was driving harder/faster/better than Hamilton.


Possibly better or at least as well. Hardly inferring that Max WAS better.

Initially you said that Verstappen was driving more on the limit, even that post infers that Verstappen may have been quicker but no way Hamilton could have been quicker whilst accusing me of putting Hamilton's performances above that of everyone else which I never did.

Anyway this would be my last post on the matter, shame a great race ends up like this.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I have no beef with people's opinions, the problem seems more about reading into something that I didn't say and then me having to explain myself.

What is that?

Like me saying "How many people have Moss in their top 10" which you just quoted.


So you did say it???

I can't take this seriously man, I just can't. You asked who would have Moss in a list, people provided that and you still just arguing for the sake of arguing. I can't really argue anymore, you have the floor

You honestly believe that I believe that no one would have Moss on their top 10 list, Blake would attest that I know he for one does, I later did say that most wouldn't.

As luck would have it a thread got bumped a week ago on another forum from January asking people to list their top 10 drivers of all time, I obviously read that which formulated my opinion about Moss.

7 out of 30 people had Moss in their top 10s, then an overall resulting was made from 24 lists, the other didn't have a specific order, the result being:-

01. Senna 156
02. Hamilton 155
03. Schumacher 154
04. Prost 137
05. Clark 115
06. Fangio 113
07. Alonso 80
08. Stewart 55
09. Lauda 42
10. Vettel 39

Vettel in, Moss out.


I think you've lost sight of what started this line of conversation.

You suggesting as a general rule to be considered top 10 you had to win at least 2 WDCs. 24% of people putting him in their lists proves that rule cannot be relied upon.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:19 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
How am I supposed to read into a post that Verstappen was more on the limit than Hamilton, it's nothing short of looking to down play Hamilton's performance.


Nobody has looked down on Hamilton's performance at all. What's being offered as a alternative to any claim that LH drove quali lap after quali lap, was the view that on older tyres and knowing LH was hauling him in, Max had to drive flat out knowing his tyres were far more worn out which could cause them to go off the cliff and basically lead to a mistake more easily than in LH's case.

LH drove brilliantly and I haven't really read another view to that. Max drove brilliantly too, possible better or at least equally good. We'll never know.

Of course, I know this doesn't suit your persistent cause to put Hamilton above and beyond in everything he ever does, (I'm inferring here of course!) but you can simply roll your eyes again in order to get others to agree with you.

I'm clearly not looking to put Hamilton above Verstappen, Verstappen driving flat out is the same as Hamilton saying he was doing qualifying laps yet it's you who want to infer that Verstappen was driving harder/faster/better than Hamilton.


Possibly better or at least as well. Hardly inferring that Max WAS better.

Initially you said that Verstappen was driving more on the limit, even that post infers that Verstappen may have been quicker but no way Hamilton could have been quicker whilst accusing me of putting Hamilton's performances above that of everyone else which I never did.


That's the general feeling I get from your posts on this forum over time, not specifically this thread.



Anyway this would be my last post on the matter, shame a great race ends up like this.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:52 pm 
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A hypothetical question for the people who believe in results first and foremost when considering the all-time greats:

If Prost had won all those near-miss WDCs - 1983, 1984, 1988, 1990 - and was the sole 8-time WDC, with Senna only a 1-time WDC from 1991, would that mean he would have to be ranked #1? Obviously he would be the same driver he is, just a tiny bit luckier. But would his standing alone atop the WDC table force him to be put at a higher place than the roughly 4th place most people currently rank him?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:47 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
What is that?

Like me saying "How many people have Moss in their top 10" which you just quoted.


So you did say it???

I can't take this seriously man, I just can't. You asked who would have Moss in a list, people provided that and you still just arguing for the sake of arguing. I can't really argue anymore, you have the floor

You honestly believe that I believe that no one would have Moss on their top 10 list, Blake would attest that I know he for one does, I later did say that most wouldn't.

As luck would have it a thread got bumped a week ago on another forum from January asking people to list their top 10 drivers of all time, I obviously read that which formulated my opinion about Moss.

7 out of 30 people had Moss in their top 10s, then an overall resulting was made from 24 lists, the other didn't have a specific order, the result being:-

01. Senna 156
02. Hamilton 155
03. Schumacher 154
04. Prost 137
05. Clark 115
06. Fangio 113
07. Alonso 80
08. Stewart 55
09. Lauda 42
10. Vettel 39

Vettel in, Moss out.


I think you've lost sight of what started this line of conversation.

You suggesting as a general rule to be considered top 10 you had to win at least 2 WDCs. 24% of people putting him in their lists proves that rule cannot be relied upon.

I do tend to lose the line of conversations as they ramble on, I'm talking in terms of a democratic opinion referencing the thread I saw before the season, in that final top 10 list every driver has at least 2 WDC's to their name so obviously people do put some stock into it.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:52 pm 
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Posts: 32098
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Nobody has looked down on Hamilton's performance at all. What's being offered as a alternative to any claim that LH drove quali lap after quali lap, was the view that on older tyres and knowing LH was hauling him in, Max had to drive flat out knowing his tyres were far more worn out which could cause them to go off the cliff and basically lead to a mistake more easily than in LH's case.

LH drove brilliantly and I haven't really read another view to that. Max drove brilliantly too, possible better or at least equally good. We'll never know.

Of course, I know this doesn't suit your persistent cause to put Hamilton above and beyond in everything he ever does, (I'm inferring here of course!) but you can simply roll your eyes again in order to get others to agree with you.

I'm clearly not looking to put Hamilton above Verstappen, Verstappen driving flat out is the same as Hamilton saying he was doing qualifying laps yet it's you who want to infer that Verstappen was driving harder/faster/better than Hamilton.


Possibly better or at least as well. Hardly inferring that Max WAS better.

Initially you said that Verstappen was driving more on the limit, even that post infers that Verstappen may have been quicker but no way Hamilton could have been quicker whilst accusing me of putting Hamilton's performances above that of everyone else which I never did.


That's the general feeling I get from your posts on this forum over time, not specifically this thread.



Anyway this would be my last post on the matter, shame a great race ends up like this.

However I will respond to a personal jibe, it this case it shows you didn't really read what I had to say but purely chose to put your spin on what I said because of how you've labelled me.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:00 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
A hypothetical question for the people who believe in results first and foremost when considering the all-time greats:

If Prost had won all those near-miss WDCs - 1983, 1984, 1988, 1990 - and was the sole 8-time WDC, with Senna only a 1-time WDC from 1991, would that mean he would have to be ranked #1? Obviously he would be the same driver he is, just a tiny bit luckier. But would his standing alone atop the WDC table force him to be put at a higher place than the roughly 4th place most people currently rank him?

If he kept beating Senna in near identical machinery then why not?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:12 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
A hypothetical question for the people who believe in results first and foremost when considering the all-time greats:

If Prost had won all those near-miss WDCs - 1983, 1984, 1988, 1990 - and was the sole 8-time WDC, with Senna only a 1-time WDC from 1991, would that mean he would have to be ranked #1? Obviously he would be the same driver he is, just a tiny bit luckier. But would his standing alone atop the WDC table force him to be put at a higher place than the roughly 4th place most people currently rank him?

I won't answer but good question anyway, as so many people here seem obsessed with a will of ranking.

All I can tell is neither Senna nor Schumacher would ever make my top ten if I had to list one.
And I find strange Mario Andretti is not even mentionned by anybody when talking of all time greats. I know it's a F1 forum but motor racing started long before F1 looked at itself as the "pinnacle" of motor racing (which it was not till the end of the '60s).

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 4:24 pm 
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Harpo wrote:
Exediron wrote:
A hypothetical question for the people who believe in results first and foremost when considering the all-time greats:

If Prost had won all those near-miss WDCs - 1983, 1984, 1988, 1990 - and was the sole 8-time WDC, with Senna only a 1-time WDC from 1991, would that mean he would have to be ranked #1? Obviously he would be the same driver he is, just a tiny bit luckier. But would his standing alone atop the WDC table force him to be put at a higher place than the roughly 4th place most people currently rank him?

I won't answer but good question anyway, as so many people here seem obsessed with a will of ranking.

All I can tell is neither Senna nor Schumacher would ever make my top ten if I had to list one.
And I find strange Mario Andretti is not even mentionned by anybody when talking of all time greats. I know it's a F1 forum but motor racing started long before F1 looked at itself as the "pinnacle" of motor racing (which it was not till the end of the '60s).

Good point as the thread title doesn't specify F1 but it is basically a F1 forum so I guess we assume that to be the case?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:19 pm 
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Actually, to be technical, it is an F1 & Motorsport Forum according to the title. However, I think most are taking the OP's question to be an F1 question, otherwise the list displayed by some should be much different. I wouldn't even give a sniff of the Top Ten all-time Great Drivers consideration to Vettel, or Hamilton for that matter, to that list...Alonso would take at least some consideration. Andretti would merit a position very high on such a list in my opinion.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:52 pm 
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I think it's a given that the OP meant about Formula 1. I mean. we are having enough difficulty debating whether Stirling Moss can be compared to modern drivers - if it's suddenly motorsport in general, then we have to start including rally drivers, Indy drivers etc... etc... - I mean, "motorsport" doesn't even limit it to cars. We can have MotoGP in there as well, boat racing, drone racing...


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:39 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I think it's a given that the OP meant about Formula 1. I mean. we are having enough difficulty debating whether Stirling Moss can be compared to modern drivers - if it's suddenly motorsport in general, then we have to start including rally drivers, Indy drivers etc... etc... - I mean, "motorsport" doesn't even limit it to cars. We can have MotoGP in there as well, boat racing, drone racing...

I stopped writing long essays here years ago... So may be I'm too concise now. My point was that before early seventies you could easily separate "great racing drivers" from the the"very good" ones because the great were great on any track driving any type of car which leads to Moss getting so much consideration, or if I have to name some that I consider as "all time greats", Surtees and Andretti). I'm not sure the current state of motor racing allows to compare (and so rank, for the ones who care about ranking) drivers, except in their very specialized world (and I'm not even taking into consideration that 80 % of today F1 field is there with only a chance to make numbers in their remote controlled car, thanks to the technical and sport regulations).

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 8:05 pm 
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Harpo wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I think it's a given that the OP meant about Formula 1. I mean. we are having enough difficulty debating whether Stirling Moss can be compared to modern drivers - if it's suddenly motorsport in general, then we have to start including rally drivers, Indy drivers etc... etc... - I mean, "motorsport" doesn't even limit it to cars. We can have MotoGP in there as well, boat racing, drone racing...

I stopped writing long essays here years ago... So may be I'm too concise now. My point was that before early seventies you could easily separate "great racing drivers" from the the"very good" ones because the great were great on any track driving any type of car which leads to Moss getting so much consideration, or if I have to name some that I consider as "all time greats", Surtees and Andretti). I'm not sure the current state of motor racing allows to compare (and so rank, for the ones who care about ranking) drivers, except in their very specialized world (and I'm not even taking into consideration that 80 % of today F1 field is there with only a chance to make numbers in their remote controlled car, thanks to the technical and sport regulations).

I think that there is an argument to be made that the drivers of the 50s and 60s were like General Practitioners, whereas drivers of today are Specialists.

The drivers of today are much better in their specific discipline but on average would be much worse across all the disciplines compared to their counterparts.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 10:00 pm 
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I'm amazed none of you hit report on any of this last page.

Cut the personal comments. Anyone making a reference to another member's history on this forum WILL find themselves taking a holiday. We're not here to clean up the messes of a select few users in every other thread.

Those of you who joined around or before the time the current team took over this forum knows how much time and effort around a dozen moderators have put into this forum so that you have a forum that is as open and unbiased as possible. All we ask in return is that the rules are obeyed, so we don't have to go back to the far more draconian style of moderation that we had to enforce back in 2011/12. That basically boils down to keeping threads on topic, showing each other basic levels of respect and not making every other thread a chance to rehash the same old issues, either with each other or with the drivers you each like or dislike.

I trust that isn't too much to ask?

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