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Vettel Top-Ten ATG yes or no and all that...
Yes 22%  22%  [ 19 ]
No 78%  78%  [ 66 ]
Total votes : 85
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
A hypothetical question for the people who believe in results first and foremost when considering the all-time greats:

If Prost had won all those near-miss WDCs - 1983, 1984, 1988, 1990 - and was the sole 8-time WDC, with Senna only a 1-time WDC from 1991, would that mean he would have to be ranked #1? Obviously he would be the same driver he is, just a tiny bit luckier. But would his standing alone atop the WDC table force him to be put at a higher place than the roughly 4th place most people currently rank him?

If he kept beating Senna in near identical machinery then why not?

If he had the same machinery, which, came out, he did not have, even when they were driving for the same team.
https://www.prostfan.com/senna2.htm

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 11:59 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
A hypothetical question for the people who believe in results first and foremost when considering the all-time greats:

If Prost had won all those near-miss WDCs - 1983, 1984, 1988, 1990 - and was the sole 8-time WDC, with Senna only a 1-time WDC from 1991, would that mean he would have to be ranked #1? Obviously he would be the same driver he is, just a tiny bit luckier. But would his standing alone atop the WDC table force him to be put at a higher place than the roughly 4th place most people currently rank him?

If he kept beating Senna in near identical machinery then why not?

If he had the same machinery, which, came out, he did not have, even when they were driving for the same team.
https://www.prostfan.com/senna2.htm

Well I said near identical, It's Prost's version that Senna was greatly advantaged because the engine wasn't engineered around his driving style, to think these years are often viewed as the golden years in comparison to today yet teammates were apparently not given the same equipment?

I guess Prost wouldn't be looking to respond to what went on at Ferrari when he was teammates with Mansell?

Quote:
He was also partially the reason Mansell left the team. Prost was notorious for being very political, playing the gallery to suit his needs. Mansell was number one driver when Prost arrived, but that changed as the Frenchman was given preferential treatment.

At Silverstone, Mansell’s home race, Prost supposedly saw Mansell’s car was much better and ordered the team to switch their cars, meaning Prost now had the better car. This knocked the steam out of Mansell and so he saw the season as a ‘retirement year.’


https://www.thepitcrewonline.net/2017/0 ... ari-story/

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:01 am 
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Pretty much everyone that's worked with Prost says how unpolitical he was.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:38 am 
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I've just realised I'm an F1 communist, equality to all drivers and cars everywhere!


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:26 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Pretty much everyone that's worked with Prost says how unpolitical he was.

Ask Nigel Mansell, I think it's without question that he asked and was given preferential treatment at Ferrari, the story about swapping cars is also something I've heard before, if that's not politics then what is?

Prost has shown he's not shy to voice such things in respect to Senna, a driver that can no longer defend himself, why does he have no voice to dispute the things that Mansell has said?

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Last edited by pokerman on Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:27 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
I've just realised I'm an F1 communist, equality to all drivers and cars everywhere!

That's spec racing, I'm not sure you would be actually classed as a fan of F1 if that was what you wanted?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:54 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pretty much everyone that's worked with Prost says how unpolitical he was.

Ask Nigel Mansell, I think it's without question that he asked and was given preferential treatment at Ferrari, the story about swapping cars is also something I've heard before, if that's not politics then what is?

Prost has shown he's not shy to voice such things in respect to Senna, a driver that can no longer defend himself, why does he have no voice to dispute the things that Mansell has said?


As regards the switched cars story, the author did say "supposedly". One would think that such a story would have generated a lot more talk and been relatively easy to verify in today's world. There are many who live, eat and breathe F1 more than I, but I would think that even I would have heard that story before now and that it would have been a big deal, used against Prost at every opportunity.

Until more evidence of such a switch, In the way it was presented, is given, I Personally will take the story with a grain of salt.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pretty much everyone that's worked with Prost says how unpolitical he was.

Ask Nigel Mansell, I think it's without question that he asked and was given preferential treatment at Ferrari, the story about swapping cars is also something I've heard before, if that's not politics then what is?

Prost has shown he's not shy to voice such things in respect to Senna, a driver that can no longer defend himself, why does he have no voice to dispute the things that Mansell has said?


Have you actually listened to some of the things Mansell says? Has anyone else ever corroborated the story?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:18 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pretty much everyone that's worked with Prost says how unpolitical he was.

Ask Nigel Mansell, I think it's without question that he asked and was given preferential treatment at Ferrari, the story about swapping cars is also something I've heard before, if that's not politics then what is?

Prost has shown he's not shy to voice such things in respect to Senna, a driver that can no longer defend himself, why does he have no voice to dispute the things that Mansell has said?


As regards the switched cars story, the author did say "supposedly". One would think that such a story would have generated a lot more talk and been relatively easy to verify in today's world. There are many who live, eat and breathe F1 more than I, but I would think that even I would have heard that story before now and that it would have been a big deal, used against Prost at every opportunity.

Until more evidence of such a switch, In the way it was presented, is given, I Personally will take the story with a grain of salt.

Because you've not heard the story it can't be true, I heard the story years ago, if Mansell talks about Prost in a negative way then it can't be believed but we will lap up any negative things that Prost may say about Senna.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/mot ... 33246.html

Quote:
'The only thing I object to is driving with a political driver who can then start to orchestrate things. The biggest question mark I have even considering Prost being in the team is prompted by the way things turned sour at Ferrari in 1991, and I had no part in that.'


https://www.racefans.net/2007/08/09/ten ... rivalries/

Quote:
It didn’t get any better for Prost at Ferrari. New team mate Nigel Mansell suspected that Prost was getting the better equipment and claimed that his team mate even took his chassis and had the number on it changed to disguise it from Mansell.

The Briton announced his retirement halfway through the year and badly compromised Prost’s race at Estoril by blocking him at the start, allowing both McLarens past.

Mansell later rescinded his retirement decision and moved to Williams, but his intense dislike of Prost saw him quit the sport in 1992 rather than be team mates with the Frenchman again in 1993.

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2014: Champion
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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:45 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pretty much everyone that's worked with Prost says how unpolitical he was.

Ask Nigel Mansell, I think it's without question that he asked and was given preferential treatment at Ferrari, the story about swapping cars is also something I've heard before, if that's not politics then what is?

Prost has shown he's not shy to voice such things in respect to Senna, a driver that can no longer defend himself, why does he have no voice to dispute the things that Mansell has said?


Have you actually listened to some of the things Mansell says? Has anyone else ever corroborated the story?

Some words from Mansell about Prost, also there's a reference from the author about the car swap.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... el-mansell

Quote:
Alain Prost, wearing the World Champion’s No 1, became Nigel’s team-mate at Ferrari in 1990. In Nigel’s view, Prost worked on the Ferrari and Fiat management to persuade them that they were more likely to win the title if they threw their weight behind one driver, and that driver should be Prost. “I was brought up to compete with fair play, I wasn’t any good at politics. Ayrton was a ferocious competitor, but he had a lot more fair play in him than Piquet or Prost, those two were very political animals. They were prepared to do whatever it took, and they were very successful because of that.” By mid-year Mansell was very unhappy at Ferrari. Things came to a head at Silverstone, when he discovered that “his” chassis, which he’d put on pole for the French GP, had passed to Prost at Prost’s request. Even so, he took pole, and was leading when his gearbox failed. Prost won the race. Afterwards, Nigel astonished the world by announcing that he was retiring.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:00 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pretty much everyone that's worked with Prost says how unpolitical he was.

Ask Nigel Mansell, I think it's without question that he asked and was given preferential treatment at Ferrari, the story about swapping cars is also something I've heard before, if that's not politics then what is?

Prost has shown he's not shy to voice such things in respect to Senna, a driver that can no longer defend himself, why does he have no voice to dispute the things that Mansell has said?


As regards the switched cars story, the author did say "supposedly". One would think that such a story would have generated a lot more talk and been relatively easy to verify in today's world. There are many who live, eat and breathe F1 more than I, but I would think that even I would have heard that story before now and that it would have been a big deal, used against Prost at every opportunity.

Until more evidence of such a switch, In the way it was presented, is given, I Personally will take the story with a grain of salt.


It is a big story and has been talked about a hell of a lot and is brought up on this forum often as well. I'm very surprised you haven't heard it.

By own beef with it is that I don't find Mansell a reliable source with such things. He has a history of wildly exaggerating the odds against him and had a massive persecution complex.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 4:03 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pretty much everyone that's worked with Prost says how unpolitical he was.

Ask Nigel Mansell, I think it's without question that he asked and was given preferential treatment at Ferrari, the story about swapping cars is also something I've heard before, if that's not politics then what is?

Prost has shown he's not shy to voice such things in respect to Senna, a driver that can no longer defend himself, why does he have no voice to dispute the things that Mansell has said?


Have you actually listened to some of the things Mansell says? Has anyone else ever corroborated the story?

Some words from Mansell about Prost, also there's a reference from the author about the car swap.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... el-mansell

Quote:
Alain Prost, wearing the World Champion’s No 1, became Nigel’s team-mate at Ferrari in 1990. In Nigel’s view, Prost worked on the Ferrari and Fiat management to persuade them that they were more likely to win the title if they threw their weight behind one driver, and that driver should be Prost. “I was brought up to compete with fair play, I wasn’t any good at politics. Ayrton was a ferocious competitor, but he had a lot more fair play in him than Piquet or Prost, those two were very political animals. They were prepared to do whatever it took, and they were very successful because of that.” By mid-year Mansell was very unhappy at Ferrari. Things came to a head at Silverstone, when he discovered that “his” chassis, which he’d put on pole for the French GP, had passed to Prost at Prost’s request. Even so, he took pole, and was leading when his gearbox failed. Prost won the race. Afterwards, Nigel astonished the world by announcing that he was retiring.


I'm not suggesting Mansell didn't say it. I just don't find him in any way a reliable source for this sort of thing. He has a history of always massively over exaggerated the odds against him. Has anyone in Ferrari ever confirmed this?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:00 pm 
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Off topic post removed.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:05 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pretty much everyone that's worked with Prost says how unpolitical he was.

Ask Nigel Mansell, I think it's without question that he asked and was given preferential treatment at Ferrari, the story about swapping cars is also something I've heard before, if that's not politics then what is?

Prost has shown he's not shy to voice such things in respect to Senna, a driver that can no longer defend himself, why does he have no voice to dispute the things that Mansell has said?


As regards the switched cars story, the author did say "supposedly". One would think that such a story would have generated a lot more talk and been relatively easy to verify in today's world. There are many who live, eat and breathe F1 more than I, but I would think that even I would have heard that story before now and that it would have been a big deal, used against Prost at every opportunity.

Until more evidence of such a switch, In the way it was presented, is given, I Personally will take the story with a grain of salt.


It is a big story and has been talked about a hell of a lot and is brought up on this forum often as well. I'm very surprised you haven't heard it.

By own beef with it is that I don't find Mansell a reliable source with such things. He has a history of wildly exaggerating the odds against him and had a massive persecution complex.


Fair enough, I hadn't heard the story though apparently I should have. Maybe I just haven't paid attention enough where Nigel is concerned? Perhaps it is true, perhaps not. I would think that collaborating "evidence" would have shown up in the decades since. Nobody chose a moment of fame by confirming it happened...in today's world??? Mansell and the story's author are hardly irrefutable proof as you say, mikey.

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Last edited by Blake on Sun Aug 18, 2019 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 6:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Because you've not heard the story it can't be true, I heard the story years ago, if Mansell talks about Prost in a negative way then it can't be believed but we will lap up any negative things that Prost may say about Senna.

I'd say any single-source unverified story is dubious. Prost, for his part, has claimed that if he had #1 status in 1990 he would have won the WDC easily, so he clearly felt he didn't have it. The truth probably lies in between, as per usual. Neither driver had #1 status, and they both actually wanted it.

Prost's claim that Senna had superior engines from Honda, however, is not a single-source claim. A lot of other people have said the same thing.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Pretty much everyone that's worked with Prost says how unpolitical he was.


My biggest takeaway from the Senna doco was the opposite. I saw him as very political, and he used relationships with F1 officials where he could. The opening race in that doco where Senna is catching him at a wet Monaco, and they suggest Prost gets the race stopped comes to mind.

That said, I know it was a doco about Senna, so it was never going to paint Prost in a pretty light.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pretty much everyone that's worked with Prost says how unpolitical he was.

Ask Nigel Mansell, I think it's without question that he asked and was given preferential treatment at Ferrari, the story about swapping cars is also something I've heard before, if that's not politics then what is?

Prost has shown he's not shy to voice such things in respect to Senna, a driver that can no longer defend himself, why does he have no voice to dispute the things that Mansell has said?


Have you actually listened to some of the things Mansell says? Has anyone else ever corroborated the story?

Some words from Mansell about Prost, also there's a reference from the author about the car swap.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... el-mansell

Quote:
Alain Prost, wearing the World Champion’s No 1, became Nigel’s team-mate at Ferrari in 1990. In Nigel’s view, Prost worked on the Ferrari and Fiat management to persuade them that they were more likely to win the title if they threw their weight behind one driver, and that driver should be Prost. “I was brought up to compete with fair play, I wasn’t any good at politics. Ayrton was a ferocious competitor, but he had a lot more fair play in him than Piquet or Prost, those two were very political animals. They were prepared to do whatever it took, and they were very successful because of that.” By mid-year Mansell was very unhappy at Ferrari. Things came to a head at Silverstone, when he discovered that “his” chassis, which he’d put on pole for the French GP, had passed to Prost at Prost’s request. Even so, he took pole, and was leading when his gearbox failed. Prost won the race. Afterwards, Nigel astonished the world by announcing that he was retiring.


I'm not suggesting Mansell didn't say it. I just don't find him in any way a reliable source for this sort of thing. He has a history of always massively over exaggerated the odds against him. Has anyone in Ferrari ever confirmed this?

Has anyone apart from Prost confirmed the Honda story?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:10 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Because you've not heard the story it can't be true, I heard the story years ago, if Mansell talks about Prost in a negative way then it can't be believed but we will lap up any negative things that Prost may say about Senna.

I'd say any single-source unverified story is dubious. Prost, for his part, has claimed that if he had #1 status in 1990 he would have won the WDC easily, so he clearly felt he didn't have it. The truth probably lies in between, as per usual. Neither driver had #1 status, and they both actually wanted it.

Prost's claim that Senna had superior engines from Honda, however, is not a single-source claim. A lot of other people have said the same thing.

Who are these other people that back up Prost's claims also were was it said that Mansell wanted #1 status over Prost?

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2017: 9th Place
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 18, 2019 11:20 pm 
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Charles LeBrad wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pretty much everyone that's worked with Prost says how unpolitical he was.


My biggest takeaway from the Senna doco was the opposite. I saw him as very political, and he used relationships with F1 officials where he could. The opening race in that doco where Senna is catching him at a wet Monaco, and they suggest Prost gets the race stopped comes to mind.

That said, I know it was a doco about Senna, so it was never going to paint Prost in a pretty light.

Prost getting the race stopped actually cost him the WDC with Lauda retiring from the race, a second place finish would have scored Prost 1.5 points more than the half points he got for winning the shortened race, Lauda won the title just half a point in front of Prost.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 12:40 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pretty much everyone that's worked with Prost says how unpolitical he was.


My biggest takeaway from the Senna doco was the opposite. I saw him as very political, and he used relationships with F1 officials where he could. The opening race in that doco where Senna is catching him at a wet Monaco, and they suggest Prost gets the race stopped comes to mind.

That said, I know it was a doco about Senna, so it was never going to paint Prost in a pretty light.

Prost getting the race stopped actually cost him the WDC with Lauda retiring from the race, a second place finish would have scored Prost 1.5 points more than the half points he got for winning the shortened race, Lauda won the title just half a point in front of Prost.

Prost was losing, but he would not, if the whole racing distance would be driven. Senna's car at Monaco 1984 was damaged after he took badly the chicane, and, according to some sources, his car would not last the racing distance.
"Much later it emerged that Senna had damaged the car’s suspension earlier in the race by clattering a kerb; mechanics at Toleman estimated that the car may only have gone on for another four or five laps before the stress would have snapped the suspension completely." https://badgergp.com/race-monaco-1984/
:In the chase of Keke Rosberg, Ayrton braked into the chicane. The chicane at the exit of the tunnel in 1984 had a different configuration to how it is today. The chicane in that year was smoother and faster. Ayrton bounced over the kerbs here which damaged his suspension." https://www.gptoday.net/en/news/f1/2464 ... aster-1984

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 6:17 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ask Nigel Mansell, I think it's without question that he asked and was given preferential treatment at Ferrari, the story about swapping cars is also something I've heard before, if that's not politics then what is?

Prost has shown he's not shy to voice such things in respect to Senna, a driver that can no longer defend himself, why does he have no voice to dispute the things that Mansell has said?


Have you actually listened to some of the things Mansell says? Has anyone else ever corroborated the story?

Some words from Mansell about Prost, also there's a reference from the author about the car swap.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... el-mansell

Quote:
Alain Prost, wearing the World Champion’s No 1, became Nigel’s team-mate at Ferrari in 1990. In Nigel’s view, Prost worked on the Ferrari and Fiat management to persuade them that they were more likely to win the title if they threw their weight behind one driver, and that driver should be Prost. “I was brought up to compete with fair play, I wasn’t any good at politics. Ayrton was a ferocious competitor, but he had a lot more fair play in him than Piquet or Prost, those two were very political animals. They were prepared to do whatever it took, and they were very successful because of that.” By mid-year Mansell was very unhappy at Ferrari. Things came to a head at Silverstone, when he discovered that “his” chassis, which he’d put on pole for the French GP, had passed to Prost at Prost’s request. Even so, he took pole, and was leading when his gearbox failed. Prost won the race. Afterwards, Nigel astonished the world by announcing that he was retiring.


I'm not suggesting Mansell didn't say it. I just don't find him in any way a reliable source for this sort of thing. He has a history of always massively over exaggerated the odds against him. Has anyone in Ferrari ever confirmed this?

Has anyone apart from Prost confirmed the Honda story?


No Idea, and I don't really understand what that has to do with Mansell's claim about car swapping? But for what it's worth I'm not really on board with that story either.

That being said I'd be much more inclined to believe Prost talking about that sort of thing than Mansell.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:13 am 
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Mansell had no chance to beat Prost, the amazing thing is he beat him 3-4 times on merit.

Nigel Mansell was 14kg heavier than Prost, it wasn’t until 1995 that the car and drive were weighed and it became a lot fairer. Mansell was racing with the equivalent of a 4 year old child in his car. Reportedly losing him 0.4-0.6 per lap depending on the circuit.

I would have loved to see Prost vs Mansell in equally weighted cars, I think Mansell would have beat him.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:19 am 
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France 88 and 89 make sense, Honda did play around with engines I am 100% sure. But it could have been a case they turned Senna’s car down for those races?

Honda liked to see Prost win in France, they also rigged the title so Senna won it in Japan. The two races before Japan Senna had “fuel read out issues” and trundled around all race to 6th and 4th. If he won either of those races he was champion. At Jerez before the race, it was told that Senna would not win the race by Mclaren engineers.

Then come Japan, Prosts car has a gearbox issue and Senna takes an easy win despite dropping back at the start.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:35 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pretty much everyone that's worked with Prost says how unpolitical he was.


My biggest takeaway from the Senna doco was the opposite. I saw him as very political, and he used relationships with F1 officials where he could. The opening race in that doco where Senna is catching him at a wet Monaco, and they suggest Prost gets the race stopped comes to mind.

That said, I know it was a doco about Senna, so it was never going to paint Prost in a pretty light.

Prost getting the race stopped actually cost him the WDC with Lauda retiring from the race, a second place finish would have scored Prost 1.5 points more than the half points he got for winning the shortened race, Lauda won the title just half a point in front of Prost.

Prost was losing, but he would not, if the whole racing distance would be driven. Senna's car at Monaco 1984 was damaged after he took badly the chicane, and, according to some sources, his car would not last the racing distance.
"Much later it emerged that Senna had damaged the car’s suspension earlier in the race by clattering a kerb; mechanics at Toleman estimated that the car may only have gone on for another four or five laps before the stress would have snapped the suspension completely." https://badgergp.com/race-monaco-1984/
:In the chase of Keke Rosberg, Ayrton braked into the chicane. The chicane at the exit of the tunnel in 1984 had a different configuration to how it is today. The chicane in that year was smoother and faster. Ayrton bounced over the kerbs here which damaged his suspension." https://www.gptoday.net/en/news/f1/2464 ... aster-1984

Yes I have heard that story before but it still doesn't change the fact that Prost was instrumental in stopping a race which ultimate cost him the WDC because he was only given half the points for his win.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:37 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Have you actually listened to some of the things Mansell says? Has anyone else ever corroborated the story?

Some words from Mansell about Prost, also there's a reference from the author about the car swap.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... el-mansell

Quote:
Alain Prost, wearing the World Champion’s No 1, became Nigel’s team-mate at Ferrari in 1990. In Nigel’s view, Prost worked on the Ferrari and Fiat management to persuade them that they were more likely to win the title if they threw their weight behind one driver, and that driver should be Prost. “I was brought up to compete with fair play, I wasn’t any good at politics. Ayrton was a ferocious competitor, but he had a lot more fair play in him than Piquet or Prost, those two were very political animals. They were prepared to do whatever it took, and they were very successful because of that.” By mid-year Mansell was very unhappy at Ferrari. Things came to a head at Silverstone, when he discovered that “his” chassis, which he’d put on pole for the French GP, had passed to Prost at Prost’s request. Even so, he took pole, and was leading when his gearbox failed. Prost won the race. Afterwards, Nigel astonished the world by announcing that he was retiring.


I'm not suggesting Mansell didn't say it. I just don't find him in any way a reliable source for this sort of thing. He has a history of always massively over exaggerated the odds against him. Has anyone in Ferrari ever confirmed this?

Has anyone apart from Prost confirmed the Honda story?


No Idea, and I don't really understand what that has to do with Mansell's claim about car swapping? But for what it's worth I'm not really on board with that story either.

That being said I'd be much more inclined to believe Prost talking about that sort of thing than Mansell.

So we have to have proof for Mansell's claim but no proof is needed for Prost's claim?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:37 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pretty much everyone that's worked with Prost says how unpolitical he was.


My biggest takeaway from the Senna doco was the opposite. I saw him as very political, and he used relationships with F1 officials where he could. The opening race in that doco where Senna is catching him at a wet Monaco, and they suggest Prost gets the race stopped comes to mind.

That said, I know it was a doco about Senna, so it was never going to paint Prost in a pretty light.

Prost getting the race stopped actually cost him the WDC with Lauda retiring from the race, a second place finish would have scored Prost 1.5 points more than the half points he got for winning the shortened race, Lauda won the title just half a point in front of Prost.

Prost was losing, but he would not, if the whole racing distance would be driven. Senna's car at Monaco 1984 was damaged after he took badly the chicane, and, according to some sources, his car would not last the racing distance.
"Much later it emerged that Senna had damaged the car’s suspension earlier in the race by clattering a kerb; mechanics at Toleman estimated that the car may only have gone on for another four or five laps before the stress would have snapped the suspension completely." https://badgergp.com/race-monaco-1984/
:In the chase of Keke Rosberg, Ayrton braked into the chicane. The chicane at the exit of the tunnel in 1984 had a different configuration to how it is today. The chicane in that year was smoother and faster. Ayrton bounced over the kerbs here which damaged his suspension." https://www.gptoday.net/en/news/f1/2464 ... aster-1984

Yes I have heard that story before but it still doesn't change the fact that Prost was instrumental in stopping a race which ultimate cost him the WDC because he was only given half the points for his win.


It's definitely not a fact.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:42 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Mansell had no chance to beat Prost, the amazing thing is he beat him 3-4 times on merit.

Nigel Mansell was 14kg heavier than Prost, it wasn’t until 1995 that the car and drive were weighed and it became a lot fairer. Mansell was racing with the equivalent of a 4 year old child in his car. Reportedly losing him 0.4-0.6 per lap depending on the circuit.

I would have loved to see Prost vs Mansell in equally weighted cars, I think Mansell would have beat him.

A similar thing could be said with Senna and Prost, Prost is 5ft 5ins tall and weighs only 9 and a half stone.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:45 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
My biggest takeaway from the Senna doco was the opposite. I saw him as very political, and he used relationships with F1 officials where he could. The opening race in that doco where Senna is catching him at a wet Monaco, and they suggest Prost gets the race stopped comes to mind.

That said, I know it was a doco about Senna, so it was never going to paint Prost in a pretty light.

Prost getting the race stopped actually cost him the WDC with Lauda retiring from the race, a second place finish would have scored Prost 1.5 points more than the half points he got for winning the shortened race, Lauda won the title just half a point in front of Prost.

Prost was losing, but he would not, if the whole racing distance would be driven. Senna's car at Monaco 1984 was damaged after he took badly the chicane, and, according to some sources, his car would not last the racing distance.
"Much later it emerged that Senna had damaged the car’s suspension earlier in the race by clattering a kerb; mechanics at Toleman estimated that the car may only have gone on for another four or five laps before the stress would have snapped the suspension completely." https://badgergp.com/race-monaco-1984/
:In the chase of Keke Rosberg, Ayrton braked into the chicane. The chicane at the exit of the tunnel in 1984 had a different configuration to how it is today. The chicane in that year was smoother and faster. Ayrton bounced over the kerbs here which damaged his suspension." https://www.gptoday.net/en/news/f1/2464 ... aster-1984

Yes I have heard that story before but it still doesn't change the fact that Prost was instrumental in stopping a race which ultimate cost him the WDC because he was only given half the points for his win.


It's definitely not a fact.

It's somewhat ironic then.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prost getting the race stopped actually cost him the WDC with Lauda retiring from the race, a second place finish would have scored Prost 1.5 points more than the half points he got for winning the shortened race, Lauda won the title just half a point in front of Prost.

Prost was losing, but he would not, if the whole racing distance would be driven. Senna's car at Monaco 1984 was damaged after he took badly the chicane, and, according to some sources, his car would not last the racing distance.
"Much later it emerged that Senna had damaged the car’s suspension earlier in the race by clattering a kerb; mechanics at Toleman estimated that the car may only have gone on for another four or five laps before the stress would have snapped the suspension completely." https://badgergp.com/race-monaco-1984/
:In the chase of Keke Rosberg, Ayrton braked into the chicane. The chicane at the exit of the tunnel in 1984 had a different configuration to how it is today. The chicane in that year was smoother and faster. Ayrton bounced over the kerbs here which damaged his suspension." https://www.gptoday.net/en/news/f1/2464 ... aster-1984

Yes I have heard that story before but it still doesn't change the fact that Prost was instrumental in stopping a race which ultimate cost him the WDC because he was only given half the points for his win.


It's definitely not a fact.

It's somewhat ironic then.


Well yeah.

He asked for the race to be stopped when he felt it got too wet. That's no more or less playing politics than the situation we have today of drivers talking to the race director behind the safety car trying to get the race delayed or started depending on which situation suits them. Neither do we know it was any more instrumental in the stopping the race. They never did that again for him. Why would they on that one occasion?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:34 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
Prost was losing, but he would not, if the whole racing distance would be driven. Senna's car at Monaco 1984 was damaged after he took badly the chicane, and, according to some sources, his car would not last the racing distance.
"Much later it emerged that Senna had damaged the car’s suspension earlier in the race by clattering a kerb; mechanics at Toleman estimated that the car may only have gone on for another four or five laps before the stress would have snapped the suspension completely." https://badgergp.com/race-monaco-1984/
:In the chase of Keke Rosberg, Ayrton braked into the chicane. The chicane at the exit of the tunnel in 1984 had a different configuration to how it is today. The chicane in that year was smoother and faster. Ayrton bounced over the kerbs here which damaged his suspension." https://www.gptoday.net/en/news/f1/2464 ... aster-1984

Yes I have heard that story before but it still doesn't change the fact that Prost was instrumental in stopping a race which ultimate cost him the WDC because he was only given half the points for his win.


It's definitely not a fact.

It's somewhat ironic then.


Well yeah.

He asked for the race to be stopped when he felt it got too wet. That's no more or less playing politics than the situation we have today of drivers talking to the race director behind the safety car trying to get the race delayed or started depending on which situation suits them. Neither do we know it was any more instrumental in the stopping the race. They never did that again for him. Why would they on that one occasion?

Well in this case the race steward was Jacky Ickx a supposed friend of Prost.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 1:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Some words from Mansell about Prost, also there's a reference from the author about the car swap.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/arch ... el-mansell



I'm not suggesting Mansell didn't say it. I just don't find him in any way a reliable source for this sort of thing. He has a history of always massively over exaggerated the odds against him. Has anyone in Ferrari ever confirmed this?

Has anyone apart from Prost confirmed the Honda story?


No Idea, and I don't really understand what that has to do with Mansell's claim about car swapping? But for what it's worth I'm not really on board with that story either.

That being said I'd be much more inclined to believe Prost talking about that sort of thing than Mansell.

So we have to have proof for Mansell's claim but no proof is needed for Prost's claim?


I've literally said I don't really much believe either.

I would however, be more inclined to believe Prost than Mansell when talking about this sort of thing though.

Mansell is known to be massively paranoid with a huge persecution complex and a history of over exaggerating the odds against him. He's simply an unreliable source in that area.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 2:19 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yes I have heard that story before but it still doesn't change the fact that Prost was instrumental in stopping a race which ultimate cost him the WDC because he was only given half the points for his win.


It's definitely not a fact.

It's somewhat ironic then.


Well yeah.

He asked for the race to be stopped when he felt it got too wet. That's no more or less playing politics than the situation we have today of drivers talking to the race director behind the safety car trying to get the race delayed or started depending on which situation suits them. Neither do we know it was any more instrumental in the stopping the race. They never did that again for him. Why would they on that one occasion?

Well in this case the race steward was Jacky Ickx a supposed friend of Prost.

Ickx was, at that time, very successfuly driving for the works Porsche team in group C, while Prost was driving his McLaren that was Porsche powered. Tough never officially confirmed (and mind you, who would), many have pointed out that these facts led Ickx to gift the victory to Porsche powered car and stop the race just in time for the Porsche powered car to win. I am actually not sure about it, the circumstances were really bad, but timing leaves place for premeditated calculations.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:25 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I'm not suggesting Mansell didn't say it. I just don't find him in any way a reliable source for this sort of thing. He has a history of always massively over exaggerated the odds against him. Has anyone in Ferrari ever confirmed this?

Has anyone apart from Prost confirmed the Honda story?


No Idea, and I don't really understand what that has to do with Mansell's claim about car swapping? But for what it's worth I'm not really on board with that story either.

That being said I'd be much more inclined to believe Prost talking about that sort of thing than Mansell.

So we have to have proof for Mansell's claim but no proof is needed for Prost's claim?


I've literally said I don't really much believe either.

I would however, be more inclined to believe Prost than Mansell when talking about this sort of thing though.

Mansell is known to be massively paranoid with a huge persecution complex and a history of over exaggerating the odds against him. He's simply an unreliable source in that area.

I just find it to be very selective in what criteria are used to define what might be the truth were personal opinion dictates what needs to be proven.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Has anyone apart from Prost confirmed the Honda story?


No Idea, and I don't really understand what that has to do with Mansell's claim about car swapping? But for what it's worth I'm not really on board with that story either.

That being said I'd be much more inclined to believe Prost talking about that sort of thing than Mansell.

So we have to have proof for Mansell's claim but no proof is needed for Prost's claim?


I've literally said I don't really much believe either.

I would however, be more inclined to believe Prost than Mansell when talking about this sort of thing though.

Mansell is known to be massively paranoid with a huge persecution complex and a history of over exaggerating the odds against him. He's simply an unreliable source in that area.

I just find it to be very selective in what criteria are used to define what might be the truth were personal opinion dictates what needs to be proven.


I've said I don't believe either. I don't know what else you expect from me? What should I be doing differently?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:11 pm 
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It is rather obvious, poker. Mikey tends to believe Prost more than Mansell. Is that a crime? He has explained that he finds both claims suspect, yet that isn't enough for you?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:07 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

Yes I have heard that story before but it still doesn't change the fact that Prost was instrumental in stopping a race which ultimate cost him the WDC because he was only given half the points for his win.


It's definitely not a fact.

It's somewhat ironic then.


Well yeah.

He asked for the race to be stopped when he felt it got too wet. That's no more or less playing politics than the situation we have today of drivers talking to the race director behind the safety car trying to get the race delayed or started depending on which situation suits them. Neither do we know it was any more instrumental in the stopping the race. They never did that again for him. Why would they on that one occasion?

Well in this case the race steward was Jacky Ickx a supposed friend of Prost.
I would expect a gentleman such as Jacky to be friendly with all drivers. More to the point of the discussion; Jacky Ickx was bona fide Regenmeister. We might simply take his word for it that he was convinced that the conditions were bad enough to stop the race.
Also to the point, we might point to Prost's crash at the Austrian Grand Prix as the point where he lost the championship.

I've been thinking about the thread subject, and I can't honestly say whether Vettel is in the top 10.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:51 pm 
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How did the lap times look in the 4-5 laps before the red flag? How many cars put it into the wall during those laps?

Genuine questions and would shed a lot of light on how political it was to stop the race.

Edit- it seems no cars DNF’d in the 8 laps prior to the red flag. Ickyx was also suspended from his duty as he did not consult any of the stewards on the red flag decision and acted on his own. It also says the in the race report that the rain was not as heavy as it was earlier in the race at the time of the red flag.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:11 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
How did the lap times look in the 4-5 laps before the red flag? How many cars put it into the wall during those laps?

Genuine questions and would shed a lot of light on how political it was to stop the race.

Edit- it seems no cars DNF’d in the 8 laps prior to the red flag. Ickyx was also suspended from his duty as he did not consult any of the stewards on the red flag decision and acted on his own. It also says the in the race report that the rain was not as heavy as it was earlier in the race at the time of the red flag.

where did you find the info in the edit, johnson? I am impressed.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:44 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
How did the lap times look in the 4-5 laps before the red flag? How many cars put it into the wall during those laps?

Genuine questions and would shed a lot of light on how political it was to stop the race.

Edit- it seems no cars DNF’d in the 8 laps prior to the red flag. Ickyx was also suspended from his duty as he did not consult any of the stewards on the red flag decision and acted on his own. It also says the in the race report that the rain was not as heavy as it was earlier in the race at the time of the red flag.


IIRC Boeri, a local official, waved the chequered flag at the red flag, thereby preventing a restart.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:26 am 
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Blake wrote:
It is rather obvious, poker. Mikey tends to believe Prost more than Mansell. Is that a crime? He has explained that he finds both claims suspect, yet that isn't enough for you?

I don't believe either driver, but....

No I'm pointing out the different standards that get applied in such cases, also poignant that you would intervene, when things relate to Ferrari it's always a case of did Ferrari confirm that otherwise it's bogus, but in the case of Prost we take him at his word without any confirmation from Honda.

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Last edited by pokerman on Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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