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Vettel Top-Ten ATG yes or no and all that...
Yes 22%  22%  [ 19 ]
No 78%  78%  [ 66 ]
Total votes : 85
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:28 am 
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Johnson wrote:
How did the lap times look in the 4-5 laps before the red flag? How many cars put it into the wall during those laps?

Genuine questions and would shed a lot of light on how political it was to stop the race.

Edit- it seems no cars DNF’d in the 8 laps prior to the red flag. Ickyx was also suspended from his duty as he did not consult any of the stewards on the red flag decision and acted on his own. It also says the in the race report that the rain was not as heavy as it was earlier in the race at the time of the red flag.

Well the decision had to be made quite quickly before Senna caught and passed Prost.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
It is rather obvious, poker. Mikey tends to believe Prost more than Mansell. Is that a crime? He has explained that he finds both claims suspect, yet that isn't enough for you?

I don't believe either driver, but....

No I'm pointing out the different standards that get applied in such cases, also poignant that you would intervene, when things relate to Ferrari it's always a case of did Ferrari confirm that otherwise it's bogus, but in the case of Prost we take him at his word without any confirmation from Honda.


I have explained why I apply (actually very slightly) different standards to different people. Everyone has different idiosyncrasies that need taking into account. I have a friend that has proven over many years to be almost painfully honest. I have another friend who tends to be over effusive. So if the first friend tells me I look good in my new suit I take it more as more of a complement than if the second friend told me i looked good.

Mansell is known to over exaggerate the odds against him and thinks everyone is out to get him so I find myself more cautious in fully believing him when he talks about things that infer either of the aforementioned.

I'm sure I have now explained this enough.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
It is rather obvious, poker. Mikey tends to believe Prost more than Mansell. Is that a crime? He has explained that he finds both claims suspect, yet that isn't enough for you?

I don't believe either driver, but....

No I'm pointing out the different standards that get applied in such cases, also poignant that you would intervene, when things relate to Ferrari it's always a case of did Ferrari confirm that otherwise it's bogus, but in the case of Prost we take him at his word without any confirmation from Honda.

Poignant?

My comments have nothing whatsoever to do with Ferrari, nor have I mentioned Ferrari. However, it doesn't surprise me in the least that you would attempt to discredit my posts in such a manner...strangely in a post where I merely defended Mike's right to have an opinion. Are you that paranoid, poker?
:?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 2:27 pm 
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This thread has been derailed long enough. Let’s get back on subject to avoid a lock

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:51 am 
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I am not sure why we need a poll. He'd be lucky to crack top 100 here on PF1, lol.

Joking aside, he is top 10 for certain. In truth though, I think we'd have to increase the question to an (unordered) top 20 to be fair, if you are truly talking "all time". Hard to pick just 10 going back to day 1, even excluding the current grid.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 9:44 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Mansell had no chance to beat Prost, the amazing thing is he beat him 3-4 times on merit.

Nigel Mansell was 14kg heavier than Prost, it wasn’t until 1995 that the car and drive were weighed and it became a lot fairer. Mansell was racing with the equivalent of a 4 year old child in his car. Reportedly losing him 0.4-0.6 per lap depending on the circuit.

I would have loved to see Prost vs Mansell in equally weighted cars, I think Mansell would have beat him.

A similar thing could be said with Senna and Prost, Prost is 5ft 5ins tall and weighs only 9 and a half stone.


That is 60.5kg, Prost was quoted as weighing 58kg in 1988.

The only driver to weigh this little since is Felipe Massa who weighed around 58-59kg during his career. Massa would have won multiple world champions under the pre-1995 rules. Nearly all of the drivers weight 65-72 kg.

He also would have completely thrashed Kimi Raikkonen and matched Alonso who were 10kg heavier which would have been costing them 0.3-0.4 per lap depending on the track. Hamilton was 8 kg heavier at the time 2007/2008.

So if 2007/2008 was run under the pre 1995 rules, Massa would have won both titles quite comfortably and got nearly every single pole position. When he paired with Alonso he would have out qualified him and beaten him in nearly half the races and be considered about his equal. He would have also been very close to Michael Schumacher in his debut season in a new team. He would be an all time great. All through just being lighter.

Prost was much better than Massa of course, but a lot of it was his weight advantage, especially 1989-1991 when the cars slowed down and switched to normally aspirated.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 10:21 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
I am not sure why we need a poll. He'd be lucky to crack top 100 here on PF1, lol.

Joking aside, he is top 10 for certain. In truth though, I think we'd have to increase the question to an (unordered) top 20 to be fair, if you are truly talking "all time". Hard to pick just 10 going back to day 1, even excluding the current grid.


Top 20 is much harder to pick than top 10 in my opinion.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 4:24 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Mansell had no chance to beat Prost, the amazing thing is he beat him 3-4 times on merit.

Nigel Mansell was 14kg heavier than Prost, it wasn’t until 1995 that the car and drive were weighed and it became a lot fairer. Mansell was racing with the equivalent of a 4 year old child in his car. Reportedly losing him 0.4-0.6 per lap depending on the circuit.

I would have loved to see Prost vs Mansell in equally weighted cars, I think Mansell would have beat him.

A similar thing could be said with Senna and Prost, Prost is 5ft 5ins tall and weighs only 9 and a half stone.


That is 60.5kg, Prost was quoted as weighing 58kg in 1988.

The only driver to weigh this little since is Felipe Massa who weighed around 58-59kg during his career. Massa would have won multiple world champions under the pre-1995 rules. Nearly all of the drivers weight 65-72 kg.

He also would have completely thrashed Kimi Raikkonen and matched Alonso who were 10kg heavier which would have been costing them 0.3-0.4 per lap depending on the track. Hamilton was 8 kg heavier at the time 2007/2008.

So if 2007/2008 was run under the pre 1995 rules, Massa would have won both titles quite comfortably and got nearly every single pole position. When he paired with Alonso he would have out qualified him and beaten him in nearly half the races and be considered about his equal. He would have also been very close to Michael Schumacher in his debut season in a new team. He would be an all time great. All through just being lighter.

Prost was much better than Massa of course, but a lot of it was his weight advantage, especially 1989-1991 when the cars slowed down and switched to normally aspirated.

I guess the weight I saw is what he weighs now?

Interesting you bring up Massa because even when he was driving weight was still considered an issue, I remember drivers like Sutil not carrying a drinks bottle in his car in order to save weight even though he risked dehydration in the race, the health of some of the heavier drivers was brought into question as they strove to lose weight.

To this end it was proposed to have a minimum weight for drivers, a system I guess similar to what has been introduced this year, however as I understand it, it needed unanimous agreement form the drivers, one driver vetoed it, that being Massa.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:03 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
I am not sure why we need a poll. He'd be lucky to crack top 100 here on PF1, lol.

Joking aside, he is top 10 for certain. In truth though, I think we'd have to increase the question to an (unordered) top 20 to be fair, if you are truly talking "all time". Hard to pick just 10 going back to day 1, even excluding the current grid.


Top 20 is much harder to pick than top 10 in my opinion.


I suppose it depends on how you look at it. If you are okay with leaving out a few of the older set so as to include more modern drivers, I suppose it would be easy. But I don't really see how you could do it. Clark, Senna, Prost, Stewart, Fittipaldi, Schumi, Piquet, Villenueve, Fangio, Lauda makes ten already, and I haven't even touched on the new era - nor finished with the greats of the past. People start plucking out older drivers (easier to do as time goes on) in order to push in younger drivers in, but I have a hard time with that.

So to me it is easier to name a top 20. However if constrained to a top 10, I would just depend on Championship wins and try to stick to various eras. Clearly Vettel is top 10 in his era.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 6:10 pm 
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Yes, Massa even had a big advantage recently, the 2017 Williams was not able to make the minimum weight when they brought in the new cars. I’m not sure if it was all season but Stroll was supposedly running 8-10kg heavier than Massa and unable to use ballast. Massa out qualified him by 1.1, 0.7, 1.2 and 0.9 seconds in the first few races, the reality is the real gap was probably less than half those numbers.

I called Stroll uselsss at the time, he isn’t a superstar but he wasn’t as bad as it looked.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:43 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
I am not sure why we need a poll. He'd be lucky to crack top 100 here on PF1, lol.

Joking aside, he is top 10 for certain. In truth though, I think we'd have to increase the question to an (unordered) top 20 to be fair, if you are truly talking "all time". Hard to pick just 10 going back to day 1, even excluding the current grid.


Top 20 is much harder to pick than top 10 in my opinion.


I suppose it depends on how you look at it. If you are okay with leaving out a few of the older set so as to include more modern drivers, I suppose it would be easy. But I don't really see how you could do it. Clark, Senna, Prost, Stewart, Fittipaldi, Schumi, Piquet, Villenueve, Fangio, Lauda makes ten already, and I haven't even touched on the new era - nor finished with the greats of the past. People start plucking out older drivers (easier to do as time goes on) in order to push in younger drivers in, but I have a hard time with that.

So to me it is easier to name a top 20. However if constrained to a top 10, I would just depend on Championship wins and try to stick to various eras. Clearly Vettel is top 10 in his era.


The reason I would find it a lot harder is that I think 15-25 are a lot closer and harder to separate than 5-15.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 12:52 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
I am not sure why we need a poll. He'd be lucky to crack top 100 here on PF1, lol.

Joking aside, he is top 10 for certain. In truth though, I think we'd have to increase the question to an (unordered) top 20 to be fair, if you are truly talking "all time". Hard to pick just 10 going back to day 1, even excluding the current grid.


Top 20 is much harder to pick than top 10 in my opinion.


I suppose it depends on how you look at it. If you are okay with leaving out a few of the older set so as to include more modern drivers, I suppose it would be easy. But I don't really see how you could do it. Clark, Senna, Prost, Stewart, Fittipaldi, Schumi, Piquet, Villenueve, Fangio, Lauda makes ten already, and I haven't even touched on the new era - nor finished with the greats of the past. People start plucking out older drivers (easier to do as time goes on) in order to push in younger drivers in, but I have a hard time with that.

So to me it is easier to name a top 20. However if constrained to a top 10, I would just depend on Championship wins and try to stick to various eras. Clearly Vettel is top 10 in his era.


The reason I would find it a lot harder is that I think 15-25 are a lot closer and harder to separate than 5-15.


Yeah, I suppose if I sat down and actually drew up a list of 14 names to go in my pot, it would look a lot like yours, swap Alonso, Surtees and Moss for Brabham, Hakkinen and Villenueve. But I could never order them that precisely.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 10:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
The same logic could have been applied to Schumacher in his last years in F1; since he's not even beating Rosberg who himself is far from a top ten driver then Schumacher doesn't belong on the list.

Schumacher had to be considered past his prime being 40+ years and out of F1 for 3 years, Vettel is still very much in his prime, he's 2 years younger than Hamilton.[/quote]

It is never mentioned very much, but if we remember back to Sch dominance years, he lived at Fiorano, his bedroom looked over the track, he got the majority of testing miles, and was never out of the bloody car at times, people forget that on here a lot, a few moan that Hamilton has a compliant team mate, Barrichello was made to give up a win, when running 1-2!

On his return, he didn't have the testing luxury or a compliant teammate, and it was well documented at the time that he didn't get on with the simulator, which caused vertigo, so when he couldn’t practice the most, he was soundly beaten by a hungry Rosberg, Schumacher was great, but he worked harder than anyone else, that was his special strength, in my opinion Hamilton has only really had one patsy and that was Kov, the rest have been fast, consistently so.

In regard to Schumacher, I think he didn't quite have the natural raw speed of, Alo, Clarke, Ham, Senna, Ver, Hunt, there are others, but he's the hardest working there has ever been, and at times his prowess over the competition at the time was breathtaking. On his return the competition had also gotten tougher, as they all try and now maximise fitness etc, an idea started by Schumacher and his team. Would love to have his insight into the drivers of today, I think he would be putting Ham top of the pile, and Ver with the most potential.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 27, 2019 11:18 pm 
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Seeing Schumacher's raw speed in F3, I was sure he is really, really special. Just like Häkkinen, by the way. At that time, there was virtually nothing between them. I guess Australia '95 was the differentiator ...

I never had that impression with Vettel, btw.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:15 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Seeing Schumacher's raw speed in F3, I was sure he is really, really special. Just like Häkkinen, by the way. At that time, there was virtually nothing between them. I guess Australia '95 was the differentiator ...

I never had that impression with Vettel, btw.

Yeah unlike Vettel, Schumacher did look special pre-F1, Vettel just merely looked good.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:42 pm 
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I think statistics take precedence. A 4-time world Champion has to be considered among the greats.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:46 am 
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breathemyexhaust wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
It’s a no from me

Senna
M. Schumacher
Hamilton
Stewart
Prost
Fangio
Clarke
Lauda
Hakkinen
Alonso

That’s in no particular order, just as I thought of them, but that’s 10 drivers I consider greater than Vettel. That’s only drivers who are lucky enough to be champions, the list could be different if I opened it up to drivers unlucky enough not to get in a title winning car.

Top 20 maybe but I’ve never really rated him. Refer to my post in the least favourite drivers thread


That's not a bad list but I think Vettel is beyond a shadow of a doubt both better and greater than Hakkinen. He's had more titles (with not much better cars really if you consider the McLarens from 1998-2001), more second places, and periods when he was the best driver in the sport. I don't think Mika had any period when he was the best driver in the sport.


I would disagree. I watched all of Hakkinens career and when he won his two world championships he took on Schumacher and beat him in a straight fight. He was always seen as a talent. Vettel just has never had that something special. Its a personal judgment but having watched both their careers I rate Hakkinen above Vettel.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:12 am 
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Alcibiades wrote:
breathemyexhaust wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
It’s a no from me

Senna
M. Schumacher
Hamilton
Stewart
Prost
Fangio
Clarke
Lauda
Hakkinen
Alonso

That’s in no particular order, just as I thought of them, but that’s 10 drivers I consider greater than Vettel. That’s only drivers who are lucky enough to be champions, the list could be different if I opened it up to drivers unlucky enough not to get in a title winning car.

Top 20 maybe but I’ve never really rated him. Refer to my post in the least favourite drivers thread


That's not a bad list but I think Vettel is beyond a shadow of a doubt both better and greater than Hakkinen. He's had more titles (with not much better cars really if you consider the McLarens from 1998-2001), more second places, and periods when he was the best driver in the sport. I don't think Mika had any period when he was the best driver in the sport.


I would disagree. I watched all of Hakkinens career and when he won his two world championships he took on Schumacher and beat him in a straight fight. He was always seen as a talent. Vettel just has never had that something special. Its a personal judgment but having watched both their careers I rate Hakkinen above Vettel.


Schumacher missed half a season in one of those years and had a poorer car in the other. If Hakkinen beat the best of his era in a straight fight in 98 than Vettel did the same in 2010.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:08 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
breathemyexhaust wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
It’s a no from me

Senna
M. Schumacher
Hamilton
Stewart
Prost
Fangio
Clarke
Lauda
Hakkinen
Alonso

That’s in no particular order, just as I thought of them, but that’s 10 drivers I consider greater than Vettel. That’s only drivers who are lucky enough to be champions, the list could be different if I opened it up to drivers unlucky enough not to get in a title winning car.

Top 20 maybe but I’ve never really rated him. Refer to my post in the least favourite drivers thread


That's not a bad list but I think Vettel is beyond a shadow of a doubt both better and greater than Hakkinen. He's had more titles (with not much better cars really if you consider the McLarens from 1998-2001), more second places, and periods when he was the best driver in the sport. I don't think Mika had any period when he was the best driver in the sport.


I would disagree. I watched all of Hakkinens career and when he won his two world championships he took on Schumacher and beat him in a straight fight. He was always seen as a talent. Vettel just has never had that something special. Its a personal judgment but having watched both their careers I rate Hakkinen above Vettel.


Schumacher missed half a season in one of those years and had a poorer car in the other. If Hakkinen beat the best of his era in a straight fight in 98 than Vettel did the same in 2010.



Vettel actually beat everyone in '10 despite the reliability problems.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:24 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
breathemyexhaust wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
It’s a no from me

Senna
M. Schumacher
Hamilton
Stewart
Prost
Fangio
Clarke
Lauda
Hakkinen
Alonso

That’s in no particular order, just as I thought of them, but that’s 10 drivers I consider greater than Vettel. That’s only drivers who are lucky enough to be champions, the list could be different if I opened it up to drivers unlucky enough not to get in a title winning car.

Top 20 maybe but I’ve never really rated him. Refer to my post in the least favourite drivers thread


That's not a bad list but I think Vettel is beyond a shadow of a doubt both better and greater than Hakkinen. He's had more titles (with not much better cars really if you consider the McLarens from 1998-2001), more second places, and periods when he was the best driver in the sport. I don't think Mika had any period when he was the best driver in the sport.


I would disagree. I watched all of Hakkinens career and when he won his two world championships he took on Schumacher and beat him in a straight fight. He was always seen as a talent. Vettel just has never had that something special. Its a personal judgment but having watched both their careers I rate Hakkinen above Vettel.


Schumacher missed half a season in one of those years and had a poorer car in the other. If Hakkinen beat the best of his era in a straight fight in 98 than Vettel did the same in 2010.



Vettel actually beat everyone in '10 despite the reliability problems.


Erm, Hakkinen beat everyone as well. That's the point.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 8:27 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
breathemyexhaust wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
It’s a no from me

Senna
M. Schumacher
Hamilton
Stewart
Prost
Fangio
Clarke
Lauda
Hakkinen
Alonso

That’s in no particular order, just as I thought of them, but that’s 10 drivers I consider greater than Vettel. That’s only drivers who are lucky enough to be champions, the list could be different if I opened it up to drivers unlucky enough not to get in a title winning car.

Top 20 maybe but I’ve never really rated him. Refer to my post in the least favourite drivers thread


That's not a bad list but I think Vettel is beyond a shadow of a doubt both better and greater than Hakkinen. He's had more titles (with not much better cars really if you consider the McLarens from 1998-2001), more second places, and periods when he was the best driver in the sport. I don't think Mika had any period when he was the best driver in the sport.


I would disagree. I watched all of Hakkinens career and when he won his two world championships he took on Schumacher and beat him in a straight fight. He was always seen as a talent. Vettel just has never had that something special. Its a personal judgment but having watched both their careers I rate Hakkinen above Vettel.


Schumacher missed half a season in one of those years and had a poorer car in the other. If Hakkinen beat the best of his era in a straight fight in 98 than Vettel did the same in 2010.


Häkkinen had Adelaide '95 before he took the fight to Schumacher.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:01 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Alcibiades wrote:
breathemyexhaust wrote:
Charles LeBrad wrote:
It’s a no from me

Senna
M. Schumacher
Hamilton
Stewart
Prost
Fangio
Clarke
Lauda
Hakkinen
Alonso

That’s in no particular order, just as I thought of them, but that’s 10 drivers I consider greater than Vettel. That’s only drivers who are lucky enough to be champions, the list could be different if I opened it up to drivers unlucky enough not to get in a title winning car.

Top 20 maybe but I’ve never really rated him. Refer to my post in the least favourite drivers thread


That's not a bad list but I think Vettel is beyond a shadow of a doubt both better and greater than Hakkinen. He's had more titles (with not much better cars really if you consider the McLarens from 1998-2001), more second places, and periods when he was the best driver in the sport. I don't think Mika had any period when he was the best driver in the sport.


I would disagree. I watched all of Hakkinens career and when he won his two world championships he took on Schumacher and beat him in a straight fight. He was always seen as a talent. Vettel just has never had that something special. Its a personal judgment but having watched both their careers I rate Hakkinen above Vettel.


Schumacher missed half a season in one of those years and had a poorer car in the other. If Hakkinen beat the best of his era in a straight fight in 98 than Vettel did the same in 2010.


Häkkinen had Adelaide '95 before he took the fight to Schumacher.


I'm afraid I don't get the relevance?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:15 am 
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I think just judging from the vote it's clear that only his most dedicated of fans will consider him as such


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:59 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
I think just judging from the vote it's clear that only his most dedicated of fans will consider him as such

One in four F1 fans are Vettel's most dedicated supporters then

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:03 pm 
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Tufty wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
I think just judging from the vote it's clear that only his most dedicated of fans will consider him as such

One in four F1 fans are Vettel's most dedicated supporters then

Yeah that's crazy, if one in four are his most dedicated supporters, then that must mean that at least every F1 fan is his supporter.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 31, 2019 10:36 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Tufty wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
I think just judging from the vote it's clear that only his most dedicated of fans will consider him as such

One in four F1 fans are Vettel's most dedicated supporters then

Yeah that's crazy, if one in four are his most dedicated supporters, then that must mean that at least every F1 fan is his supporter.


It's quite clear that vast majority of people here consider him not in the top 10

Quite conclusive...


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 1:06 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Tufty wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
I think just judging from the vote it's clear that only his most dedicated of fans will consider him as such

One in four F1 fans are Vettel's most dedicated supporters then

Yeah that's crazy, if one in four are his most dedicated supporters, then that must mean that at least every F1 fan is his supporter.

It's quite clear that vast majority of people here consider him not in the top 10

Quite conclusive...

Well, a clear majority certainly - I'm not sure 75% qualifies as vast. But I don't think 25% of P-F1 members are dedicated Vettel supporters, so Covalent's point stands. People who are not dedicated Vettel supporters clearly consider him an all-time great.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:31 am 
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Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Tufty wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
I think just judging from the vote it's clear that only his most dedicated of fans will consider him as such

One in four F1 fans are Vettel's most dedicated supporters then

Yeah that's crazy, if one in four are his most dedicated supporters, then that must mean that at least every F1 fan is his supporter.

It's quite clear that vast majority of people here consider him not in the top 10

Quite conclusive...

Well, a clear majority certainly - I'm not sure 75% qualifies as vast. But I don't think 25% of P-F1 members are dedicated Vettel supporters, so Covalent's point stands. People who are not dedicated Vettel supporters clearly consider him an all-time great.


Probably not, but a total of 19 out of all the PF1 members could be? :]


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:18 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Tufty wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
I think just judging from the vote it's clear that only his most dedicated of fans will consider him as such

One in four F1 fans are Vettel's most dedicated supporters then

Yeah that's crazy, if one in four are his most dedicated supporters, then that must mean that at least every F1 fan is his supporter.


It's quite clear that vast majority of people here consider him not in the top 10

Quite conclusive...


"Here" being the operative term.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:35 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Tufty wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
I think just judging from the vote it's clear that only his most dedicated of fans will consider him as such

One in four F1 fans are Vettel's most dedicated supporters then

Yeah that's crazy, if one in four are his most dedicated supporters, then that must mean that at least every F1 fan is his supporter.

It's quite clear that vast majority of people here consider him not in the top 10

Quite conclusive...

Well, a clear majority certainly - I'm not sure 75% qualifies as vast. But I don't think 25% of P-F1 members are dedicated Vettel supporters, so Covalent's point stands. People who are not dedicated Vettel supporters clearly consider him an all-time great.

I feel he's unquestionably an All-Time great, but IDK if he gets in the top 10, though if he gets back on the winning track, he might just creep his way into the top 10, if not top 5.
I feel he really is that superb but has lost his form enough to withhold placing him for the time being.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:24 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Tufty wrote:
One in four F1 fans are Vettel's most dedicated supporters then

Yeah that's crazy, if one in four are his most dedicated supporters, then that must mean that at least every F1 fan is his supporter.

It's quite clear that vast majority of people here consider him not in the top 10

Quite conclusive...

Well, a clear majority certainly - I'm not sure 75% qualifies as vast. But I don't think 25% of P-F1 members are dedicated Vettel supporters, so Covalent's point stands. People who are not dedicated Vettel supporters clearly consider him an all-time great.

I feel he's unquestionably an All-Time great, but IDK if he gets in the top 10, though if he gets back on the winning track, he might just creep his way into the top 10, if not top 5.
I feel he really is that superb but has lost his form enough to withhold placing him for the time being.

Losing to Leclerc would make it almost impossible to place him in the top 10, he has the titles but if he's seen to be behind many of his contemporary drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo and now Leclerc I can't see how he makes the top 10 list?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:21 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Losing to Leclerc would make it almost impossible to place him in the top 10, he has the titles but if he's seen to be behind many of his contemporary drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo and now Leclerc I can't see how he makes the top 10 list?

If losing a race, or even a few races, to a teammate disqualifies one from Top 10 lists, will there be anyone on the list? Certainly none from this century that I can think of.
;)

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:41 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Losing to Leclerc would make it almost impossible to place him in the top 10, he has the titles but if he's seen to be behind many of his contemporary drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo and now Leclerc I can't see how he makes the top 10 list?

If losing a race, or even a few races, to a teammate disqualifies one from Top 10 lists, will there be anyone on the list? Certainly none from this century that I can think of.

I think pokerman just means being solidly outclassed by Leclerc over their time together, not losing any single race or even season.

That said, Prost was outclassed by Senna and is still a top ten all-time great. You have to know where Leclerc ends up before you can say being outclassed by him disqualifies Vettel. If he and Max dominate the next ten years as the two clear era-defining talents, being outclassed by him isn't so bad.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 6:16 am 
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In defence of Vettel, his four straight WDCs pretty much cement him in F1 history. Even if one argues the benefit of the car at the time, there were two drivers in that team and the other one did not manage a single title.
His more recent form has not hit the peaks but does this really imply that he was never that great, or has he just dropped off from his own peak? Does that taint his legacy? Not the same scenario but Schumacher's return did not go particularly well. He is still viewed as an all time great (yes, seven titles versus four).

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:29 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Tufty wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
I think just judging from the vote it's clear that only his most dedicated of fans will consider him as such

One in four F1 fans are Vettel's most dedicated supporters then

Yeah that's crazy, if one in four are his most dedicated supporters, then that must mean that at least every F1 fan is his supporter.


It's quite clear that vast majority of people here consider him not in the top 10

Quite conclusive...


"Here" being the operative term.


Lol well obviously it's a poll on this forum...


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:14 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Losing to Leclerc would make it almost impossible to place him in the top 10, he has the titles but if he's seen to be behind many of his contemporary drivers like Hamilton, Alonso, Verstappen, Ricciardo and now Leclerc I can't see how he makes the top 10 list?

If losing a race, or even a few races, to a teammate disqualifies one from Top 10 lists, will there be anyone on the list? Certainly none from this century that I can think of.

I think pokerman just means being solidly outclassed by Leclerc over their time together, not losing any single race or even season.

That said, Prost was outclassed by Senna and is still a top ten all-time great. You have to know where Leclerc ends up before you can say being outclassed by him disqualifies Vettel. If he and Max dominate the next ten years as the two clear era-defining talents, being outclassed by him isn't so bad.

Yes that's what I meant. :thumbup:

The premise is that if Vettel is viewed as only the 5th best driver of this present generation does he make the top 10 ATG?

Of course you may disagree with some of the other drivers being viewed as better than him?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:16 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
In defence of Vettel, his four straight WDCs pretty much cement him in F1 history. Even if one argues the benefit of the car at the time, there were two drivers in that team and the other one did not manage a single title.
His more recent form has not hit the peaks but does this really imply that he was never that great, or has he just dropped off from his own peak? Does that taint his legacy? Not the same scenario but Schumacher's return did not go particularly well. He is still viewed as an all time great (yes, seven titles versus four).

I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 26th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
The premise is that if Vettel is viewed as only the 5th best driver of this present generation does he make the top 10 ATG?

Of course you may disagree with some of the other drivers being viewed as better than him?

That's a fair point. I don't think anyone who wasn't at least second best of their era makes it into my top ten at present, and I don't hold Vettel to be in the top two of his era - that was clearly Hamilton and Alonso. Verstappen and Leclerc are likely better as well, but I'd place them as the next generation rather than the same one.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:34 pm 
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let me preface my comments with a reminder that I am already on record saying that Seb is not one of the all-time greats. However, I find it interesting that some are using this year as "proof" that he shouldn't make their list. Leclerc, for all of his promise, can hardly be considered greater than Vettel, in my opinion. Nor can I put Max there at this time of his career. It seems as though Vettel's history (4W WDCs is not insignificant...even if he was in great cars during that time) is being dismissed in favor of 2018-19. If one is going to do that, then, should Hamilton's place in history be judged on his less than stellar year as well? Schumi rated on his three post-first retirement period (OK.. granted, some have done that too).

Again, I don't rate Vettel as one of the top 10 best drivers, but I do think I am seeing some reasons based more on biases and a bit of hypocrisy.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 10:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
In defence of Vettel, his four straight WDCs pretty much cement him in F1 history. Even if one argues the benefit of the car at the time, there were two drivers in that team and the other one did not manage a single title.
His more recent form has not hit the peaks but does this really imply that he was never that great, or has he just dropped off from his own peak? Does that taint his legacy? Not the same scenario but Schumacher's return did not go particularly well. He is still viewed as an all time great (yes, seven titles versus four).

I do think there is a balance between titles and your standing amongst your peers, Jack Brabham won 3 titles but never gets any kind of look in.


Actually Jack Brabham won 5 titles: 3 wdc + 2 wcc.


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