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Vettel Top-Ten ATG yes or no and all that...
Yes 22%  22%  [ 19 ]
No 78%  78%  [ 66 ]
Total votes : 85
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:00 pm 
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Invade wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:

Sorry, but how can you have Verstappen and Ricciardo as all time greats alongside Clark and Senna? They have not even won ONE WDC between them. All time greats need to have, at very least, some evidence of winning?

It's how I'm trying to evaluate Vettel, if I consider him as currently being the 5th best driver then I can't really consider him as top 10 of all time ignoring titles as such.

The same logic could have been applied to Schumacher in his last years in F1; since he's not even beating Rosberg who himself is far from a top ten driver then Schumacher doesn't belong on the list.

Schumacher had to be considered past his prime being 40+ years and out of F1 for 3 years, Vettel is still very much in his prime, he's 2 years younger than Hamilton.



*shrugs*

He got beat three years on the bounce. His age and hiatus is used as too much of a convenient excuse. The whole dynamic of F1 was changing. Also it's probably indicative of Rosberg being better than most of us appreciate.

Also there's always a faster and better prepared generation round the corner. Take any top driver from the past and teleport him to the present day from his prime and I think he'd not stand out in a positive way...

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:08 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
Also there's always a faster and better prepared generation round the corner. Take any top driver from the past and teleport him to the present day from his prime and I think he'd not stand out in a positive way...



Aye - that is the way of the world.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:43 pm 
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Not a fan of him, but he is.
What he did at RedBull cannot be forget.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:00 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Also there's always a faster and better prepared generation round the corner. Take any top driver from the past and teleport him to the present day from his prime and I think he'd not stand out in a positive way...



Aye - that is the way of the world.


Yes and no, you reach a peak at which point progress is very minor if at all. Look at the mens 100m world record. Not been broken in 10 years now. There will be another freak like Bolt but it could be another 10 or 20 years.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:14 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Invade wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Also there's always a faster and better prepared generation round the corner. Take any top driver from the past and teleport him to the present day from his prime and I think he'd not stand out in a positive way...



Aye - that is the way of the world.


Yes and no, you reach a peak at which point progress is very minor if at all. Look at the mens 100m world record. Not been broken in 10 years now. There will be another freak like Bolt but it could be another 10 or 20 years.


I think comparing this to the sprints (and athletics in general) is a poor choice and a warped analogy, but it would be true to say that F1 as a skill sport changes so quickly from the conditions great champions etched out their legacy in during their own eras, that the reverse will also sometimes be true in terms of teleporting present drivers to the past. Overall though anyone who watches the skill sports would surely admit that the average level goes up over time substantially due to the depth of skill to be developed and evolved in the sport and the general upward trend of professionalism and operations, and that these things speak globally over more local transitions of change in sports where certain skills are gained and others lost depending on era and rules.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:41 pm 
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.

Even if you thought his titles were against tough competition I would say "no" - the drivers in the 50's to 70's had a much harder time driving.

.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:54 pm 
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Invade wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Sorry, but how can you have Verstappen and Ricciardo as all time greats alongside Clark and Senna? They have not even won ONE WDC between them. All time greats need to have, at very least, some evidence of winning?

It's how I'm trying to evaluate Vettel, if I consider him as currently being the 5th best driver then I can't really consider him as top 10 of all time ignoring titles as such.

The same logic could have been applied to Schumacher in his last years in F1; since he's not even beating Rosberg who himself is far from a top ten driver then Schumacher doesn't belong on the list.

Schumacher had to be considered past his prime being 40+ years and out of F1 for 3 years, Vettel is still very much in his prime, he's 2 years younger than Hamilton.



*shrugs*

He got beat three years on the bounce. His age and hiatus is used as too much of a convenient excuse. The whole dynamic of F1 was changing. Also it's probably indicative of Rosberg being better than most of us appreciate.

I think when you turn 40 there is going to come a time when you become too old and you're past your prime, for Rosberg it was always going to be a lose/lose situation.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:59 pm 
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Moss is an all time great imo and many other people's. This shows that the number of WECs a driver has is not the be all and end all.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:01 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Moss is an all time great imo and many other people's. This shows that the number of WECs a driver has is not the be all and end all.

How many people have Moss in their top 10?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Moss is an all time great imo and many other people's. This shows that the number of WECs a driver has is not the be all and end all.

How many people have Moss in their top 10?

Would this count?

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:38 pm 
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Wonder what the results of that poll would be if it was posted at the end of the 2013 season...But no, he is obviously not close to bein an all time great despite his 4 world titles.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:46 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Wonder what the results of that poll would be if it was posted at the end of the 2013 season...But no, he is obviously not close to bein an all time great despite his 4 world titles.

He would have been in a lot more people's which demonstrates the danger of basing it on recent results.

I think the second part of your post demonstrates that quite well too though. He is clearly a great, though top 10 is certainly debatable. The saying you're only as good as your last race is a saying for a reason, more recent results stick in peoples mind and I think Vettel is in danger of being underrated overall as a result.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:46 pm 
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It's a no from me as well

so many others deserving of the accolate of top 10 and Seb just doesn't cut it - particularly with the last 5 years where he can't win even with the best car two years running


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:51 pm 
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Charles LeBrad wrote:
It’s a no from me

Senna
M. Schumacher
Hamilton
Stewart
Prost
Fangio
Clarke
Lauda
Hakkinen

Alonso

That’s in no particular order, just as I thought of them, but that’s 10 drivers I consider greater than Vettel. That’s only drivers who are lucky enough to be champions, the list could be different if I opened it up to drivers unlucky enough not to get in a title winning car.

Top 20 maybe but I’ve never really rated him. Refer to my post in the least favourite drivers thread

Stewart deserves his place in F1 but he's not in the top 10 drivers of all time list. He is unquestionably the greatest proponent for forcing the FIA's hand in making safety a priority, and his contributions in this regard are indeed his legacy and it's greater than most realize because everything he fought for and demanded made not only F1 safer, but ALL motor sports as a whole. Every single racing series is as safe as it is today because of Jackie Stewart.

Lauda is a driver who's accomplishments I respect but is also not deserving of being on a top 10 of all time list.
I feel his "legend" is greater than he ever was thanks to his horrendous accident and his determination to come back against all odds, and in record time, when it was thought he wouldn't even survive.
His 3rd championship was fortuitously due to circumstances and Prost was easily the better driver over the season.

Hakkinen isn't even top 20 IMPO as he was a driver who was not particularly good in the rain and he only won races when he was in one of the best, if not the best car.
He's not a driver who could muscle a car to podiums and wins when it had no business being there, and that's one of the most important criteria a driver in the top 10, or even top 20 needs to be able to do IMPO.

Vettel far outshines what these guys ever did on track and he's not yet finished, not even close.
He's not quite at his best currently but he's driving solidly and is still one of the top guys in the world and will bounce back and get back to winning.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Moss is an all time great imo and many other people's. This shows that the number of WECs a driver has is not the be all and end all.

How many people have Moss in their top 10?


Possibly more than you'd think. Anyway, my point was not to ensure Moss because part of anyone's top 10, but more to show that he is often up there in lists of all time great drivers in F1, even if he's sometimes a little outside of the top 10. All this dispite a lack of WDC's to his name.

This then means we can look at drivers like Vettel who have a number of WDC's and not automatically put him ahead of those with less.

I'd put Mika above Vettel in my own list despite lacking in WDC's compared to Vettel.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:09 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Invade wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Also there's always a faster and better prepared generation round the corner. Take any top driver from the past and teleport him to the present day from his prime and I think he'd not stand out in a positive way...



Aye - that is the way of the world.


Yes and no, you reach a peak at which point progress is very minor if at all. Look at the mens 100m world record. Not been broken in 10 years now. There will be another freak like Bolt but it could be another 10 or 20 years.


I think comparing this to the sprints (and athletics in general) is a poor choice and a warped analogy, but it would be true to say that F1 as a skill sport changes so quickly from the conditions great champions etched out their legacy in during their own eras, that the reverse will also sometimes be true in terms of teleporting present drivers to the past. Overall though anyone who watches the skill sports would surely admit that the average level goes up over time substantially due to the depth of skill to be developed and evolved in the sport and the general upward trend of professionalism and operations, and that these things speak globally over more local transitions of change in sports where certain skills are gained and others lost depending on era and rules.


I used athletics as an example as it is a pure sport in which you can directly compare past and present.

Nearly all sports where objective measures can be made saw huge gains from the 1960's to the early 2000's but have since stagnated. That was the era of all the things you mention greatly increasing performance. It has hit a plateu since then. I think the same is true of racing drivers now, the norm is to be at the Michal Schumacher level of fitness, where as in the 1990's he was the exception.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:17 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Wonder what the results of that poll would be if it was posted at the end of the 2013 season...But no, he is obviously not close to bein an all time great despite his 4 world titles.

He would have been in a lot more people's which demonstrates the danger of basing it on recent results.

I think the second part of your post demonstrates that quite well too though. He is clearly a great, though top 10 is certainly debatable. The saying you're only as good as your last race is a saying for a reason, more recent results stick in peoples mind and I think Vettel is in danger of being underrated overall as a result.


I disagree, in 2013 he hadn't had a bad year yet.

He was a young driver who was very quick but prone to a lot of accidents and errors, 2007-2010. Accidents are forgiveable for young drivers. 2011-2013 he had ironed out the errors and gone up a level and could have been one of the greatest of all time. He was still in contention.

But, the question mark was, how good was Webber, how will he do against other drivers. His performance since have him as a very good driver but not an all time great and the errors came back when the pressure was on.

Up until 2014, he would have been in my top 10. Now I would say he is about top 20-25 but he could still end up top 15 ish if he has another good 4-5 years but my gut feeling is the coming years will cement him as more top 25 material.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:37 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Wonder what the results of that poll would be if it was posted at the end of the 2013 season...But no, he is obviously not close to bein an all time great despite his 4 world titles.

He would have been in a lot more people's which demonstrates the danger of basing it on recent results.

I think the second part of your post demonstrates that quite well too though. He is clearly a great, though top 10 is certainly debatable. The saying you're only as good as your last race is a saying for a reason, more recent results stick in peoples mind and I think Vettel is in danger of being underrated overall as a result.


I disagree, in 2013 he hadn't had a bad year yet.

He was a young driver who was very quick but prone to a lot of accidents and errors, 2007-2010. Accidents are forgiveable for young drivers. 2011-2013 he had ironed out the errors and gone up a level and could have been one of the greatest of all time. He was still in contention.

But, the question mark was, how good was Webber, how will he do against other drivers. His performance since have him as a very good driver but not an all time great and the errors came back when the pressure was on.

Up until 2014, he would have been in my top 10. Now I would say he is about top 20-25 but he could still end up top 15 ish if he has another good 4-5 years but my gut feeling is the coming years will cement him as more top 25 material.

But that's just it… The pressure is way up for several reasons, but mostly because Ferrari is in a car that's ever so slightly inferior to the Mercedes and he's trying everything and then some to make up for the deficit and in doing so, he's constantly looking for the ultimate limit and ways to exceed it, and in doing so he's lost it. One cannot fault him for that. that is precisely what ALL drivers should be trying to do in order to claw back as much performance to those whom have a faster package. I'd rather see him go balls to the wall and losing it than playing it safe to keep from going off-track or spinning because then I know he's giving everything.

I've done that very thing in karts… trying to keep up with guys that were simply so dialed in that I couldn't reel them in so I looked to copy their lines and braking points and THEN in looking to other areas where I could perhaps gain a 10th or even 100th, I ended up just post the limit and either spam or had to veer off the prime line and into the marbles or off-track and ended up losing out. That's just the nature of the beast. Leclerc is still being hyped as the great white hope (some of you older guys might get the reference) yet Vettel is beating him thus far. Yes the team made a couple of calls that cost Leclerc, but if they hadn't intervened the difference would be marginal at best and they'd be about equal. So if Leclerc is so great than so too must be Vettel. I find Vettel to be in the elite club and Leclerc is on a similar level.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:44 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Moss is an all time great imo and many other people's. This shows that the number of WECs a driver has is not the be all and end all.

How many people have Moss in their top 10?

Would this count?

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8

No not really F1 specific. :)

_________________
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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:45 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Wonder what the results of that poll would be if it was posted at the end of the 2013 season...But no, he is obviously not close to bein an all time great despite his 4 world titles.

I guess it shows that drivers can only really be rated once their F1 career is over?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:54 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Wonder what the results of that poll would be if it was posted at the end of the 2013 season...But no, he is obviously not close to bein an all time great despite his 4 world titles.

He would have been in a lot more people's which demonstrates the danger of basing it on recent results.

I think the second part of your post demonstrates that quite well too though. He is clearly a great, though top 10 is certainly debatable. The saying you're only as good as your last race is a saying for a reason, more recent results stick in peoples mind and I think Vettel is in danger of being underrated overall as a result.


I disagree, in 2013 he hadn't had a bad year yet.

He was a young driver who was very quick but prone to a lot of accidents and errors, 2007-2010. Accidents are forgiveable for young drivers. 2011-2013 he had ironed out the errors and gone up a level and could have been one of the greatest of all time. He was still in contention.

But, the question mark was, how good was Webber, how will he do against other drivers. His performance since have him as a very good driver but not an all time great and the errors came back when the pressure was on.

Up until 2014, he would have been in my top 10. Now I would say he is about top 20-25 but he could still end up top 15 ish if he has another good 4-5 years but my gut feeling is the coming years will cement him as more top 25 material.

But that's just it… The pressure is way up for several reasons, but mostly because Ferrari is in a car that's ever so slightly inferior to the Mercedes and he's trying everything and then some to make up for the deficit and in doing so, he's constantly looking for the ultimate limit and ways to exceed it, and in doing so he's lost it. One cannot fault him for that. that is precisely what ALL drivers should be trying to do in order to claw back as much performance to those whom have a faster package. I'd rather see him go balls to the wall and losing it than playing it safe to keep from going off-track or spinning because then I know he's giving everything.

I've done that very thing in karts… trying to keep up with guys that were simply so dialed in that I couldn't reel them in so I looked to copy their lines and braking points and THEN in looking to other areas where I could perhaps gain a 10th or even 100th, I ended up just post the limit and either spam or had to veer off the prime line and into the marbles or off-track and ended up losing out. That's just the nature of the beast. Leclerc is still being hyped as the great white hope (some of you older guys might get the reference) yet Vettel is beating him thus far. Yes the team made a couple of calls that cost Leclerc, but if they hadn't intervened the difference would be marginal at best and they'd be about equal. So if Leclerc is so great than so too must be Vettel. I find Vettel to be in the elite club and Leclerc is on a similar level.

That's simply not true, last year Hamilton was having to pull out all of the stops against a better Ferrari and was leading inspite of that because of mistakes made by Vettel and poor wet driving.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:43 pm 
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Rosberg made an interesting point during his vlog at Hungary where he talked about the problems Ferrari were having extracting speed from their car.

He said it was down to their front wing philosophy, and that it had meant as the season has progressed and they try to get more downforce, the only way they can do it is by impacting the stability of the rear of the car. He went on to say that Vettel has always needed a planted rear end to feel comfortable in a car and that this has been one of the biggest factors at race weekends where he's had a noticeable deficit to Leclerc.

It's possible this has been a problem throughout the season, as it would explain Vettel's spin at Bahrain.

But the reason I bring this up is that Vettel's domination came during the period that F1 was running the most aggressive exhaust blown diffusers - something they lost in 2014 where he got humiliated by Ricciardo. The effect of the EBD - of which Red Bull had by far and away the most advanced - was to give the car a very planted rear end. It basically played to Vettel's strength - or perhaps more accurately - protected his weakness.

The high downforce cars of 2017-18 did mark a return of more planted cars (although I imagine their rear end stability was still lacking to the 2011-2013 Red Bulls) and he was able to challenge for titles again - however this year was marked by a tweaking to the aero rules, raising the rear wing and changing the front wing rules which have both led to the Ferrari being impacted in its rear end stability.

I don't think that the situation is as simple as "Vettel dominated when the car was a rocket" - I think that if Vettel has a car to his liking, it can be equal and he'll be fighting for wins. The issue is that he's either got a narrower range - certainly an area of his game where he has a substantial weakness - and Alonso and Hamilton certainly seem to be far more rounded in this regard, as was Schumacher, Senna, and the other greats.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:02 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Moss is an all time great imo and many other people's. This shows that the number of WECs a driver has is not the be all and end all.

How many people have Moss in their top 10?

Would this count?

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8

No not really F1 specific. :)


But a quick google shows Moss appearing in various top 10 lists. Sometimes he gets a very low percentage of votes, but to simply be mentioned anywhere around the top 10 with zero WDCs shows how good he was and that we shouldn't base too much on WDCs.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:13 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Moss is an all time great imo and many other people's. This shows that the number of WECs a driver has is not the be all and end all.

How many people have Moss in their top 10?

Would this count?

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8

No not really F1 specific. :)


But a quick google shows Moss appearing in various top 10 lists. Sometimes he gets a very low percentage of votes, but to simply be mentioned anywhere around the top 10 with zero WDCs shows how good he was and that we shouldn't base too much on WDCs.

If we're talking about the greatest F1 drivers of all time than WDCs most definitely matter. That's the whole purpose of the competition; to win the championship. Moss was from a totally different era and he is arguably respected more for sports car victories like the Targa Florio and the Mille Miglia than his F1 exploits. In those days there wasn't the same perceived hierarchy between F1 and other motorsports and there was a lot of prestige in winning those other events. I don't think most of the people who rank Moss in the top 10 do it based purely on his F1 exploits (although he was undeniably a great F1 driver).


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:17 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
How many people have Moss in their top 10?

Would this count?

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8

No not really F1 specific. :)


But a quick google shows Moss appearing in various top 10 lists. Sometimes he gets a very low percentage of votes, but to simply be mentioned anywhere around the top 10 with zero WDCs shows how good he was and that we shouldn't base too much on WDCs.

If we're talking about the greatest F1 drivers of all time than WDCs most definitely matter. That's the whole purpose of the competition; to win the championship. Moss was from a totally different era and he is arguably respected more for sports car victories like the Targa Florio and the Mille Miglia than his F1 exploits. In those days there wasn't the same perceived hierarchy between F1 and other motorsports and there was a lot of prestige in winning those other events. I don't think most of the people who rank Moss in the top 10 do it based purely on his F1 exploits (although he was undeniably a great F1 driver).


You might not think they do, but the books and on-line things I've read over many years suggests they do. There are different poles out there for greatest drivers ever and greatest F1 drivers ever.

Anyway, my initial point for bringing him up was not to ensure he's in a top 10, but to point out that many many people directly involved with the sport rank him very very highly, often in top 10s, despite not having a WDC. Therefore, judging a driver simply based on WDCs is not sensible. If it was, we may as well all have the same list in order of number of WDCs.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:47 pm 
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If I try to mentally assemble a list of who I would put in the top ten...

First there's the giants from each era: the drivers who dominated and were clearly the very best.

Fangio. Clark and Stewart. Senna and Prost. Schumacher. Hamilton.

That leaves three openings after putting in the drivers I think are clear shoe-ins. I'll add Lauda, since I don't really have a dominant driver from the mid or late 1970s - it should have still been Stewart, but he retired early.

I'd put Vettel in a group with the rest who were in the shadow of the greats from their era (deservedly or not) - Ascari, Moss, Surtees, Andretti, Piquet, Mansell, Hakkinen, Raikkonen, Alonso, Vettel.

Out of that group, I'll take the ones who - while not matching the accomplishments of the dominant driver - seemed to be on their level. Moss and Alonso.

So my unranked top ten would be Fangio, Moss, Clark, Stewart, Lauda, Prost, Senna, Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton. I put Vettel in the same category as Piquet; a pile of titles, but I don't consider him quite equal to the great drivers of his era.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:50 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Moss is an all time great imo and many other people's. This shows that the number of WECs a driver has is not the be all and end all.

How many people have Moss in their top 10?


I do.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:55 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Wonder what the results of that poll would be if it was posted at the end of the 2013 season...But no, he is obviously not close to bein an all time great despite his 4 world titles.

He would have been in a lot more people's which demonstrates the danger of basing it on recent results.

I think the second part of your post demonstrates that quite well too though. He is clearly a great, though top 10 is certainly debatable. The saying you're only as good as your last race is a saying for a reason, more recent results stick in peoples mind and I think Vettel is in danger of being underrated overall as a result.



I guess everyone has got their own standards. When I am talking about all time greats I think of Fangio, Senna, Schumacher as definite leaders of that class, so I don't think Vettel deserves to be anywhere near those guys. Heck I don't think Prost is an all time great either. Hamilton wasn't until he did what he did last year in my book.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:57 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Moss is an all time great imo and many other people's. This shows that the number of WECs a driver has is not the be all and end all.

How many people have Moss in their top 10?


I do.


Me, too.
And based solely on his F1 performances.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:31 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Wonder what the results of that poll would be if it was posted at the end of the 2013 season...But no, he is obviously not close to bein an all time great despite his 4 world titles.

He would have been in a lot more people's which demonstrates the danger of basing it on recent results.

I think the second part of your post demonstrates that quite well too though. He is clearly a great, though top 10 is certainly debatable. The saying you're only as good as your last race is a saying for a reason, more recent results stick in peoples mind and I think Vettel is in danger of being underrated overall as a result.



I guess everyone has got their own standards. When I am talking about all time greats I think of Fangio, Senna, Schumacher as definite leaders of that class, so I don't think Vettel deserves to be anywhere near those guys. Heck I don't think Prost is an all time great either. Hamilton wasn't until he did what he did last year in my book.


Thats why I prefer the MotoGP nomenclature-Legends. There's room for the record breakers, those who break down barriers, and those who just are.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:32 pm 
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Top 10 absolutely, top 5 maybe not


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:55 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Rosberg made an interesting point during his vlog at Hungary where he talked about the problems Ferrari were having extracting speed from their car.

He said it was down to their front wing philosophy, and that it had meant as the season has progressed and they try to get more downforce, the only way they can do it is by impacting the stability of the rear of the car. He went on to say that Vettel has always needed a planted rear end to feel comfortable in a car and that this has been one of the biggest factors at race weekends where he's had a noticeable deficit to Leclerc.

It's possible this has been a problem throughout the season, as it would explain Vettel's spin at Bahrain.

But the reason I bring this up is that Vettel's domination came during the period that F1 was running the most aggressive exhaust blown diffusers - something they lost in 2014 where he got humiliated by Ricciardo. The effect of the EBD - of which Red Bull had by far and away the most advanced - was to give the car a very planted rear end. It basically played to Vettel's strength - or perhaps more accurately - protected his weakness.

The high downforce cars of 2017-18 did mark a return of more planted cars (although I imagine their rear end stability was still lacking to the 2011-2013 Red Bulls) and he was able to challenge for titles again - however this year was marked by a tweaking to the aero rules, raising the rear wing and changing the front wing rules which have both led to the Ferrari being impacted in its rear end stability.

I don't think that the situation is as simple as "Vettel dominated when the car was a rocket" - I think that if Vettel has a car to his liking, it can be equal and he'll be fighting for wins. The issue is that he's either got a narrower range - certainly an area of his game where he has a substantial weakness - and Alonso and Hamilton certainly seem to be far more rounded in this regard, as was Schumacher, Senna, and the other greats.

I agree with this. Declaring that he only won his titles because he had the best car is overly simplistic and doesn't do justice to how well he drove in that period. I mean Webber was hardly following him home in 2nd place every race. The way I'd view Vettel's career is that he has been very good but a bit one-dimensional: he absolutely mastered the EBD cars but struggled to adapt when the regs and car handling characteristics changed. In that respect he sits a level below Alonso and Hamilton, who have excelled in every generation of cars they have ever driven, but is still good enough to sit comfortably alongside a number of F1's previous multiple champs. I agree with what most people are saying here: not top 10 but top 20 certainly.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:38 pm 
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Quite surprised by the voting. I thought this would be close to 50/50 but a substantial majority are saying Vettel isn't top 10 or even necessarily top 15.

What could Vettel do to "redeem himself"?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:43 pm 
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Not for me. I’ve always though that Vettel sits in the chasing pack, closer to the likes of Rosberg and Bottas than he is to Hamilton and Alonso. I know he has proved more (as you’d expect from someone who 13th season) but I think that time will show the likes of LeClerc (and Verstappen) to have the upper hand, Ricciardo and I’m sure that a couple of the current crop will prove themselves to be at that level. Perhaps he’ll prove me wrong with LeClerc, but I expect LeClerc to build an advantage in qualifying the second half of the season, and then race pace, tyre management and ironing out mistakes will follow over the next few seasons. When the dust settles that could see him 6th of the ‘current’ crop (at best).

I really hope he sticks around though because he is one of the best out there, and it will be great to see how he measures against future team mates and some of the new generation. Plus he is certainly more than capable of adding another championship if he get’s the right circumstances, although it will only get tougher now to get a top drive alongside a teammate he can beat over a season, particularly as LeClerc develops.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:02 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Invade wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Invade wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Also there's always a faster and better prepared generation round the corner. Take any top driver from the past and teleport him to the present day from his prime and I think he'd not stand out in a positive way...



Aye - that is the way of the world.


Yes and no, you reach a peak at which point progress is very minor if at all. Look at the mens 100m world record. Not been broken in 10 years now. There will be another freak like Bolt but it could be another 10 or 20 years.


I think comparing this to the sprints (and athletics in general) is a poor choice and a warped analogy, but it would be true to say that F1 as a skill sport changes so quickly from the conditions great champions etched out their legacy in during their own eras, that the reverse will also sometimes be true in terms of teleporting present drivers to the past. Overall though anyone who watches the skill sports would surely admit that the average level goes up over time substantially due to the depth of skill to be developed and evolved in the sport and the general upward trend of professionalism and operations, and that these things speak globally over more local transitions of change in sports where certain skills are gained and others lost depending on era and rules.


I used athletics as an example as it is a pure sport in which you can directly compare past and present.

Nearly all sports where objective measures can be made saw huge gains from the 1960's to the early 2000's but have since stagnated. That was the era of all the things you mention greatly increasing performance. It has hit a plateu since then. I think the same is true of racing drivers now, the norm is to be at the Michal Schumacher level of fitness, where as in the 1990's he was the exception.


I don't think it's hit a true plateau yet but I've argued the same across forums that it's definitely levelling out and that we've hit the point of severely diminishing returns. Professionalism and sports science has come an extraordinarily long way and the so called decline expected as athletes get older needs a serious rethink. The span of prime and the general age where athletes can expect to reach maturity is changing and broadening.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:56 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Quite surprised by the voting. I thought this would be close to 50/50 but a substantial majority are saying Vettel isn't top 10 or even necessarily top 15.

What could Vettel do to "redeem himself"?

Go back in time and not crumble against Hamilton between 2017 and 2018?

I think there's no going back for Vettel. 2014 could have been a blip on the radar; he was demotivated, he knew the car couldn't win the title, he was already leaving - take your pick of the excuses. Until 2017, it was the only real blot on his claim to being an all-time great, and for a lot of people his great season in 2015 immediately undid a lot of the harm.

But then you come to 2017, when for the first time we really got to see Vettel vs. Hamilton in equal cars. It left most people with little doubt that Hamilton was better, and even worse, it was followed up by 2018 - when Vettel had an actually superior car and completely failed to match Hamilton. You can't be that severely outclassed by a rival and still be an all-time great, and for me those were the two years that lost it for him.

If he'd done as well as Prost did in a similar situation in 1990 - superior Ferrari car against an all-time great rival - I'd be happy to include him alongside Hamilton, like I have with Prost and Senna. But he didn't do anywhere near as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:09 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Invade wrote:
Quite surprised by the voting. I thought this would be close to 50/50 but a substantial majority are saying Vettel isn't top 10 or even necessarily top 15.

What could Vettel do to "redeem himself"?

Go back in time and not crumble against Hamilton between 2017 and 2018?

I think there's no going back for Vettel. 2014 could have been a blip on the radar; he was demotivated, he knew the car couldn't win the title, he was already leaving - take your pick of the excuses. Until 2017, it was the only real blot on his claim to being an all-time great, and for a lot of people his great season in 2015 immediately undid a lot of the harm.

But then you come to 2017, when for the first time we really got to see Vettel vs. Hamilton in equal cars. It left most people with little doubt that Hamilton was better, and even worse, it was followed up by 2018 - when Vettel had an actually superior car and completely failed to match Hamilton. You can't be that severely outclassed by a rival and still be an all-time great, and for me those were the two years that lost it for him.

If he'd done as well as Prost did in a similar situation in 1990 - superior Ferrari car against an all-time great rival - I'd be happy to include him alongside Hamilton, like I have with Prost and Senna. But he didn't do anywhere near as well.


What if a (quite miraculous) situation happened and Ferrari are roughly equal with Merc in 2020 and 2021 but Vettel wins the titles against Hamilton whilst also fending off Charles Leclerc and Max Verstappen? I know, I know -- it's really farfetched.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:34 am 
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Invade wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Invade wrote:
Quite surprised by the voting. I thought this would be close to 50/50 but a substantial majority are saying Vettel isn't top 10 or even necessarily top 15.

What could Vettel do to "redeem himself"?

Go back in time and not crumble against Hamilton between 2017 and 2018?

I think there's no going back for Vettel. 2014 could have been a blip on the radar; he was demotivated, he knew the car couldn't win the title, he was already leaving - take your pick of the excuses. Until 2017, it was the only real blot on his claim to being an all-time great, and for a lot of people his great season in 2015 immediately undid a lot of the harm.

But then you come to 2017, when for the first time we really got to see Vettel vs. Hamilton in equal cars. It left most people with little doubt that Hamilton was better, and even worse, it was followed up by 2018 - when Vettel had an actually superior car and completely failed to match Hamilton. You can't be that severely outclassed by a rival and still be an all-time great, and for me those were the two years that lost it for him.

If he'd done as well as Prost did in a similar situation in 1990 - superior Ferrari car against an all-time great rival - I'd be happy to include him alongside Hamilton, like I have with Prost and Senna. But he didn't do anywhere near as well.


What if a (quite miraculous) situation happened and Ferrari are roughly equal with Merc in 2020 and 2021 but Vettel wins the titles against Hamilton whilst also fending off Charles Leclerc and Max Verstappen? I know, I know -- it's really farfetched.


Good point so any "Greatest of all Time", thread can not be decided until the driver in question has ceased participating from the sport.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:06 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Moss is an all time great imo and many other people's. This shows that the number of WECs a driver has is not the be all and end all.

How many people have Moss in their top 10?

Would this count?

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/?driver=8

No not really F1 specific. :)


But a quick google shows Moss appearing in various top 10 lists. Sometimes he gets a very low percentage of votes, but to simply be mentioned anywhere around the top 10 with zero WDCs shows how good he was and that we shouldn't base too much on WDCs.

Well that was the point I was making not many, let's not forget that Moss joined F1 in it's early years and his standing in the sport reflected that for many years but not having a title was always going to weaken his position as the years roll by.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:10 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Moss is an all time great imo and many other people's. This shows that the number of WECs a driver has is not the be all and end all.

How many people have Moss in their top 10?


I do.

We all know that, your top 10 list I believe contains about 70% of the drivers from the 50's and 60s? :)

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