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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:03 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Ricciardo out qualified Verstappen 5-0 in there first 5 races together in 2016 with an average gap of 0.6 tenths. So Albons doing better than that at least.


Yeah, but we are eight races in now and also Max won a race due to being in the mix at the right time during the race which also kind of helps. Albon is never in the mix.


8 races? Max was 7-1 down in qualifying. Did he improve on that in the future? You tell me


It was pretty obvious to me at the time that he had strong potential, and it's irrelevant anyway because in 2015 he was demonstrating his talent too, even before this period you talk about.


Tell me why it is irrelevant? Why?

Please tell me why Max Verstappen was 7-1 down in qualifying to Ricciardo in 2016?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 10:11 am 
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Johnson wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Ricciardo out qualified Verstappen 5-0 in there first 5 races together in 2016 with an average gap of 0.6 tenths. So Albons doing better than that at least.


Yeah, but we are eight races in now and also Max won a race due to being in the mix at the right time during the race which also kind of helps. Albon is never in the mix.


8 races? Max was 7-1 down in qualifying. Did he improve on that in the future? You tell me


It was pretty obvious to me at the time that he had strong potential, and it's irrelevant anyway because in 2015 he was demonstrating his talent too, even before this period you talk about.


Tell me why it is irrelevant? Why?

Please tell me why Max Verstappen was 7-1 down in qualifying to Ricciardo in 2016?


Because he had earned himself more time with both the race win and very promising 2015 performances where he showed himself to be easily 'best of the rest' in quite a few races in a Torro Rosso. Albon has no such strings to his bow or any indication so far that he can do anything like this.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:39 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Almost every driver that has their first two seasons against the same experienced teammate make a clear, noticeable jump forward in their second season.


Making a jump from being very slow in the first season to being slow in the second season does not count, when absolute pace is just as important as relative pace vs their previous low benchmark. I am combining the concepts of relative pace and absolute pace here to make my points. I don't care about any improvements made if after said improvements the driver is still slow in an absolute sense.


Can you give any examples of a driver with the "absolute pace" not improving in their second season?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 12:41 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Invade wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

Isn't Hamilton dominant over Bottas on the whole, but even then Valtteri does his fair share of outqualifying Lewis and is also very occasionally quicker on race day?

Whereas Albon in contrast is not even showing that he can occasionally outqualify Max. It's early-ish days still, but the writing is on the wall for him I feel.


Well, for sure. I don't think Albon is on Bottas' level (at least yet). We've seen the sort of challenge a very good driver can give Verstappen in Daniel Ricciardo.

Max is a very formidable benchmark and it's clear right now that Albon isn't even close. However, he is merely a rookie and jumped into the role mid-season. The problem for Red Bull is that they might be shaping up for a title challenge next year, but if Albon doesn't improve significantly then he's not going to be able to pull off the required wingman duties RBR will need. Typically, rookies go on to improve substantially in the year following, wouldn't you say?


Well there are plenty that don't improve the following year, Nelson Piquet Jr., Joleon Palmer, Stoffel Vandoorne and Brandon Hartley for example. I would say that there are far more that don't improve in any significant way than there are drivers that miraculously do get much better and force you to re-evaluate them.


Nelson piquet was from the unlimited testing days, drivers didn’t improve much in the 2nd year then they had about 3-4 seasons worth of miles in testing before they even debuted.

Palmer had different team mates so what are you basing that on?

Brendon Hartley did 4 races as a stand in driver. Then a complete season and Gasly was a rookie himself so that makes no sense at all.

Vandoorne is the only recent example I can think of.

Verstappen did not look better than Ricciardo based on 2016, did you not re-evaluate that after 2016?


What about Marcus Ericsson and Felipe Nasr? They didn't seem to get any faster.

Wehrlein? Ocon? Stroll? Kyvat? There are tonnes that don't improve in any meaningful way in their second season.

Plus Palmer was slow, even with different teammates, Hartley had two seasons and Piquet had lots of testing to get things right so these examples also all count.


Ocon definitely did. The others how can we know? They had different team mates. For all you know they could have improved a lot.

What examples can you give where a driver had the same experienced team mate for his first two seasons and didn't show improvement.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:15 pm 
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But you agree, Verstappen massively improved though right?

He went from an average of 0.5 behind over his first 8 races in 2016 to ahead in 2017. Nobody knew how quick Verstappen/Sainz were in 2015 because both were rookies. Let’s not forgot, Sainz out qualified him too. So back in 2016, I’m sure you would have been saying Verstappen had terrible qualifying pace after being match by Sainz and destroyed by Ricciardo?

The race win didn’t buy him time at all, he didn’t need time bought. Red Bull knew he had been dropped in mid season and were massively impressed from start to finish through 2016.

But you at least acknowledge that drivers can and do improve, including the very benchmark you are using to measure Albon. Funny that.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:55 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Oh Alex. Looking slow again. Even Bottas can outqualify a top teammate some of the time.

Apparently he was 3 tenths up on his best lap but then made a mistake, ifs, buts and maybes I suppose?

He's still doing a better job than Gasly did though who is presently beating Kvyat, strange world. :?


Yeah, a lot of people like to praise Alex because he is doing a bit better than a very poor driver that was in the car before him.

A poor driver that looks to be faster than Kvyat.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 1:58 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
For me this matchup does not make any sense. Verstappen makes a pretty big mistake at turn one and is still nearly half a second clear of his teammate. I'm struggling to believe that Albon is driving the same exact car. Like hamilton said, i "hope Redbull is good" to Albon.

That's actually an interesting point, I'm sure that with the 2021 rules teams have to ensure that teammates have the same car, no new upgrades going to one driver first, it has been said that Verstappen's teammates don't have the same car.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:10 pm 
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If a driver records a time at a circuit on the first visit does that drivers performance go up when he drives for the same team but at the 6th visit?

This is relevant to the above but I'm also thinking of the relative times of Sainz and Norris.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:11 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
But you agree, Verstappen massively improved though right?

He went from an average of 0.5 behind over his first 8 races in 2016 to ahead in 2017. Nobody knew how quick Verstappen/Sainz were in 2015 because both were rookies. Let’s not forgot, Sainz out qualified him too. So back in 2016, I’m sure you would have been saying Verstappen had terrible qualifying pace after being match by Sainz and destroyed by Ricciardo?

The race win didn’t buy him time at all, he didn’t need time bought. Red Bull knew he had been dropped in mid season and were massively impressed from start to finish through 2016.

But you at least acknowledge that drivers can and do improve, including the very benchmark you are using to measure Albon. Funny that.


No, because I knew that Verstappen had talent and was the better driver than Sainz. I was unconvinced by Sainz and both have continued on just how I would expect.

All Max did was get more consistent and deliver at virtually every event once we got to 2017. His peak performances were demonstrated very early on.

Albon's peak performances have already been demonstrated to us too, that is my point. And he hasn't done anything special yet, so his peak performances are going to be low for him.

Everyone else here who is disagreeing with me thinks that Albon will find a tonne of pace soon and start delivering some top notch peak performances. I seriously doubt that he will.

He's also got this annoying, smiley, gentlemanly vibe to him personality-wise, which reeks of him compensating for a lack of talent. The true talents of the field can afford to get grumpy and be rude on the radio or give the occasional controversial interview etc. because they know that they are going nowhere as their talent speaks for itself. The slow guys can't afford to be impolite.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:29 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
He's also got this annoying, smiley, gentlemanly vibe to him personality-wise, which reeks of him compensating for a lack of talent. The true talents of the field can afford to get grumpy and be rude on the radio or give the occasional controversial interview etc. because they know that they are going nowhere as their talent speaks for itself. The slow guys can't afford to be impolite.


I disagree. Hakkinen was hopelessly slow and he was always telling journalists to f**k off and throwing punches.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:35 pm 
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You’ve nearly out done your “Hamiltons car was lighter because he lost a chunk of floor, that might have given him an advantage post” last week. Nearly.

That was hard reading. I am curious though, to hold such a one sided view. What are you? Ricciardo fan? Gasly fan? Verstappen fan? Or just dislike Albon?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:53 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
He's also got this annoying, smiley, gentlemanly vibe to him personality-wise, which reeks of him compensating for a lack of talent. The true talents of the field can afford to get grumpy and be rude on the radio or give the occasional controversial interview etc. because they know that they are going nowhere as their talent speaks for itself. The slow guys can't afford to be impolite.


I disagree. Hakkinen was hopelessly slow and he was always telling journalists to f**k off and throwing punches.


He seemed to easily have the beating of Herbert at Lotus, outqualified Senna on his McLaren debut and was comfortably their lead driver during 1994 and 1995, outpacing Brundle, Blundell, Mansell and Magnussen.

So I wouldn't say he is a good example of a driver starting off slow but also being rude to boot. I don't think he started off slow.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:55 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
You’ve nearly out done your “Hamiltons car was lighter because he lost a chunk of floor, that might have given him an advantage post” last week. Nearly.

That was hard reading. I am curious though, to hold such a one sided view. What are you? Ricciardo fan? Gasly fan? Verstappen fan? Or just dislike Albon?


I never said that, so you are inventing posts of mine and even labelling it 'hard reading' when no such post of mine exists. You are a liar.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Oh Alex. Looking slow again. Even Bottas can outqualify a top teammate some of the time.

Apparently he was 3 tenths up on his best lap but then made a mistake, ifs, buts and maybes I suppose?

He's still doing a better job than Gasly did though who is presently beating Kvyat, strange world. :?


Yeah, a lot of people like to praise Alex because he is doing a bit better than a very poor driver that was in the car before him.

A poor driver that looks to be faster than Kvyat.


Yes its all a bit weird, is it possible that Verstappen is a driver that has an inhibiting effect on his team mate I wonder, Ricciardo, Kvyatt, Gasly all seemed to suffer. I actually think that Albon has not got worse but is not as quick as Max........Yet :uhoh:


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:18 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
He's also got this annoying, smiley, gentlemanly vibe to him personality-wise, which reeks of him compensating for a lack of talent. The true talents of the field can afford to get grumpy and be rude on the radio or give the occasional controversial interview etc. because they know that they are going nowhere as their talent speaks for itself. The slow guys can't afford to be impolite.


I disagree. Hakkinen was hopelessly slow and he was always telling journalists to f**k off and throwing punches.


He seemed to easily have the beating of Herbert at Lotus, outqualified Senna on his McLaren debut and was comfortably their lead driver during 1994 and 1995, outpacing Brundle, Blundell, Mansell and Magnussen.

So I wouldn't say he is a good example of a driver starting off slow but also being rude to boot. I don't think he started off slow.

Thanks. I need a new pair of pants now as I have just wet mine...

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:28 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
He's also got this annoying, smiley, gentlemanly vibe to him personality-wise, which reeks of him compensating for a lack of talent. The true talents of the field can afford to get grumpy and be rude on the radio or give the occasional controversial interview etc. because they know that they are going nowhere as their talent speaks for itself. The slow guys can't afford to be impolite.


I disagree. Hakkinen was hopelessly slow and he was always telling journalists to f**k off and throwing punches.


He seemed to easily have the beating of Herbert at Lotus, outqualified Senna on his McLaren debut and was comfortably their lead driver during 1994 and 1995, outpacing Brundle, Blundell, Mansell and Magnussen.

So I wouldn't say he is a good example of a driver starting off slow but also being rude to boot. I don't think he started off slow.

Thanks. I need a new pair of pants now as I have just wet mine...


You can only beat what's in front of you, and he was beating these guys, so in his mind he can afford to be rude as a freebie as he knows that he will not be booted from the sport before the other guys that he is beating.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:48 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
You’ve nearly out done your “Hamiltons car was lighter because he lost a chunk of floor, that might have given him an advantage post” last week. Nearly.

That was hard reading. I am curious though, to hold such a one sided view. What are you? Ricciardo fan? Gasly fan? Verstappen fan? Or just dislike Albon?


I never said that, so you are inventing posts of mine and even labelling it 'hard reading' when no such post of mine exists. You are a liar.


Sorry, my apologies, you said he might not have lost any time by losing a large chunk of floor because the loss of aero could be offset by the gain from the car being lighter. I am sorry to have misquoted that classic. Your post, I am genuinely not sure if you are serious.

Hard reading, because it’s such drivel. Way to ignore the questions at the end. So you are a Ricciardo fan I take it?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:48 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Banana Man wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
He's also got this annoying, smiley, gentlemanly vibe to him personality-wise, which reeks of him compensating for a lack of talent. The true talents of the field can afford to get grumpy and be rude on the radio or give the occasional controversial interview etc. because they know that they are going nowhere as their talent speaks for itself. The slow guys can't afford to be impolite.


I disagree. Hakkinen was hopelessly slow and he was always telling journalists to f**k off and throwing punches.


He seemed to easily have the beating of Herbert at Lotus, outqualified Senna on his McLaren debut and was comfortably their lead driver during 1994 and 1995, outpacing Brundle, Blundell, Mansell and Magnussen.

So I wouldn't say he is a good example of a driver starting off slow but also being rude to boot. I don't think he started off slow.

Thanks. I need a new pair of pants now as I have just wet mine...


You can only beat what's in front of you, and he was beating these guys, so in his mind he can afford to be rude as a freebie as he knows that he will not be booted from the sport before the other guys that he is beating.



Wwooooooosshh :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:07 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
You’ve nearly out done your “Hamiltons car was lighter because he lost a chunk of floor, that might have given him an advantage post” last week. Nearly.

That was hard reading. I am curious though, to hold such a one sided view. What are you? Ricciardo fan? Gasly fan? Verstappen fan? Or just dislike Albon?


I never said that, so you are inventing posts of mine and even labelling it 'hard reading' when no such post of mine exists. You are a liar.


Sorry, my apologies, you said he might not have lost any time by losing a large chunk of floor because the loss of aero could be offset by the gain from the car being lighter. I am sorry to have misquoted that classic. Your post, I am genuinely not sure if you are serious.

Hard reading, because it’s such drivel. Way to ignore the questions at the end. So you are a Ricciardo fan I take it?


I said that some of the performance loss from the (possibly) damaged floor would have been offset by the weight loss of the broken off part of the floor, reducing the performance loss somewhat.

I am a Formula One fan.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:09 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

He seemed to easily have the beating of Herbert at Lotus, outqualified Senna on his McLaren debut and was comfortably their lead driver during 1994 and 1995, outpacing Brundle, Blundell, Mansell and Magnussen.

So I wouldn't say he is a good example of a driver starting off slow but also being rude to boot. I don't think he started off slow.

Thanks. I need a new pair of pants now as I have just wet mine...


You can only beat what's in front of you, and he was beating these guys, so in his mind he can afford to be rude as a freebie as he knows that he will not be booted from the sport before the other guys that he is beating.



Wwooooooosshh :lol:


It's called arrogance and you can get away with it if you are quick. Senna and Schumacher were a bit like this too.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 4:11 pm 
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It’s called missing the joke when using Häkkinen as the example.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:43 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
It’s called missing the joke when using Häkkinen as the example.


I am too young to get it as I wasn't following F1 in the late 80's and early 90's due to my age, so I would have no chance of knowing, so it doesn't count.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:46 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
It’s called missing the joke when using Häkkinen as the example.

I am too young to get it as I wasn't following F1 in the late 80's and early 90's due to my age, so I would have no chance of knowing, so it doesn't count.

In that case, my apologies. Hakkinnen was indeed a quick driver and Banana Man's post was intentional irony.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:46 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
It’s called missing the joke when using Häkkinen as the example.


I am too young to get it as I wasn't following F1 in the late 80's and early 90's due to my age, so I would have no chance of knowing, so it doesn't count.


I was born in 1994, does that mean anything that happened before 1994 doesn't count? Best tell Fangio, Senna etc to give their titles back :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:54 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
But you agree, Verstappen massively improved though right?

He went from an average of 0.5 behind over his first 8 races in 2016 to ahead in 2017. Nobody knew how quick Verstappen/Sainz were in 2015 because both were rookies. Let’s not forgot, Sainz out qualified him too. So back in 2016, I’m sure you would have been saying Verstappen had terrible qualifying pace after being match by Sainz and destroyed by Ricciardo?

The race win didn’t buy him time at all, he didn’t need time bought. Red Bull knew he had been dropped in mid season and were massively impressed from start to finish through 2016.

But you at least acknowledge that drivers can and do improve, including the very benchmark you are using to measure Albon. Funny that.


No, because I knew that Verstappen had talent and was the better driver than Sainz. I was unconvinced by Sainz and both have continued on just how I would expect.

All Max did was get more consistent and deliver at virtually every event once we got to 2017. His peak performances were demonstrated very early on.

Albon's peak performances have already been demonstrated to us too, that is my point. And he hasn't done anything special yet, so his peak performances are going to be low for him.

Everyone else here who is disagreeing with me thinks that Albon will find a tonne of pace soon and start delivering some top notch peak performances. I seriously doubt that he will.

He's also got this annoying, smiley, gentlemanly vibe to him personality-wise, which reeks of him compensating for a lack of talent. The true talents of the field can afford to get grumpy and be rude on the radio or give the occasional controversial interview etc. because they know that they are going nowhere as their talent speaks for itself. The slow guys can't afford to be impolite.

It's beginning to look like you simply don't like Albon?

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:57 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Oh Alex. Looking slow again. Even Bottas can outqualify a top teammate some of the time.

Apparently he was 3 tenths up on his best lap but then made a mistake, ifs, buts and maybes I suppose?

He's still doing a better job than Gasly did though who is presently beating Kvyat, strange world. :?


Yeah, a lot of people like to praise Alex because he is doing a bit better than a very poor driver that was in the car before him.

A poor driver that looks to be faster than Kvyat.


Yes its all a bit weird, is it possible that Verstappen is a driver that has an inhibiting effect on his team mate I wonder, Ricciardo, Kvyatt, Gasly all seemed to suffer. I actually think that Albon has not got worse but is not as quick as Max........Yet :uhoh:

Well I'm guessing you missed my post that says that the Red Bull cars might not be exactly the same?

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Apparently he was 3 tenths up on his best lap but then made a mistake, ifs, buts and maybes I suppose?

He's still doing a better job than Gasly did though who is presently beating Kvyat, strange world. :?


Yeah, a lot of people like to praise Alex because he is doing a bit better than a very poor driver that was in the car before him.

A poor driver that looks to be faster than Kvyat.


Yes its all a bit weird, is it possible that Verstappen is a driver that has an inhibiting effect on his team mate I wonder, Ricciardo, Kvyatt, Gasly all seemed to suffer. I actually think that Albon has not got worse but is not as quick as Max........Yet :uhoh:

Well I'm guessing you missed my post that says that the Red Bull cars might not be exactly the same?


Any evidence? Or even people in the know speculating?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:00 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
It’s called missing the joke when using Häkkinen as the example.


I am too young to get it as I wasn't following F1 in the late 80's and early 90's due to my age, so I would have no chance of knowing, so it doesn't count.


I was born in 1994, does that mean anything that happened before 1994 doesn't count? Best tell Fangio, Senna etc to give their titles back :lol:


You're being silly because that is not what I said. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:02 pm 
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Can't fault Albon's effort today. A relentless drive from him, to be sure!


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 9:07 pm 
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Sometimes in life you don’t need to out run the wolves, you just need to out run the fattest guy in the group. He’s not as quick as Max but more importantly he is doing a much better job than Gasly was.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:48 am 
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I've nothing against Albon (unlike F1 Racer, I actually kind of like him), but I find it a bit weird the standard to which he's held. The people behind me at turn one kept talking about how he had such a great drive and should be driver of the day, but as far as I could tell he delivered the minimum result expected and passed a lot of slower cars. I think Max would have ended up in front of Leclerc for sure if he'd been in the same situation.

Is it just that Gasly did so poorly that people are comparing Albon to that standard?

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:41 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
But you agree, Verstappen massively improved though right?

He went from an average of 0.5 behind over his first 8 races in 2016 to ahead in 2017. Nobody knew how quick Verstappen/Sainz were in 2015 because both were rookies. Let’s not forgot, Sainz out qualified him too. So back in 2016, I’m sure you would have been saying Verstappen had terrible qualifying pace after being match by Sainz and destroyed by Ricciardo?

The race win didn’t buy him time at all, he didn’t need time bought. Red Bull knew he had been dropped in mid season and were massively impressed from start to finish through 2016.

But you at least acknowledge that drivers can and do improve, including the very benchmark you are using to measure Albon. Funny that.


No, because I knew that Verstappen had talent and was the better driver than Sainz. I was unconvinced by Sainz and both have continued on just how I would expect.

All Max did was get more consistent and deliver at virtually every event once we got to 2017. His peak performances were demonstrated very early on.

Albon's peak performances have already been demonstrated to us too, that is my point. And he hasn't done anything special yet, so his peak performances are going to be low for him.

Everyone else here who is disagreeing with me thinks that Albon will find a tonne of pace soon and start delivering some top notch peak performances. I seriously doubt that he will.

He's also got this annoying, smiley, gentlemanly vibe to him personality-wise, which reeks of him compensating for a lack of talent. The true talents of the field can afford to get grumpy and be rude on the radio or give the occasional controversial interview etc. because they know that they are going nowhere as their talent speaks for itself. The slow guys can't afford to be impolite.

Literally no one is saying that. Stop making things up.

Also, your agenda is on display now with your final paragraph, so you might as well stop pretending you're analysing his performances objectively. It's ok to be a fanboy and have no rational reason to like or dislike a driver, but don't do that and then claim to be an impartial observer. You have no credibility around here so you might as well embrace it.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 2:12 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Yeah, a lot of people like to praise Alex because he is doing a bit better than a very poor driver that was in the car before him.

A poor driver that looks to be faster than Kvyat.


Yes its all a bit weird, is it possible that Verstappen is a driver that has an inhibiting effect on his team mate I wonder, Ricciardo, Kvyatt, Gasly all seemed to suffer. I actually think that Albon has not got worse but is not as quick as Max........Yet :uhoh:

Well I'm guessing you missed my post that says that the Red Bull cars might not be exactly the same?


Any evidence? Or even people in the know speculating?

It might have been Matthew Carter, his latest missed apex podcast was very revealing .

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:09 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
pokerman wrote:
A poor driver that looks to be faster than Kvyat.


Yes its all a bit weird, is it possible that Verstappen is a driver that has an inhibiting effect on his team mate I wonder, Ricciardo, Kvyatt, Gasly all seemed to suffer. I actually think that Albon has not got worse but is not as quick as Max........Yet :uhoh:

Well I'm guessing you missed my post that says that the Red Bull cars might not be exactly the same?


Any evidence? Or even people in the know speculating?

It might have been Matthew Carter, his latest missed apex podcast was very revealing .

Hamilton was eaten by a dinosaur.

In other news, it has been said that Hamilton was eaten by a dinosaur. I don't remember where I read it but it most definitely is a fact.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:22 pm 
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jono794 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
But you agree, Verstappen massively improved though right?

He went from an average of 0.5 behind over his first 8 races in 2016 to ahead in 2017. Nobody knew how quick Verstappen/Sainz were in 2015 because both were rookies. Let’s not forgot, Sainz out qualified him too. So back in 2016, I’m sure you would have been saying Verstappen had terrible qualifying pace after being match by Sainz and destroyed by Ricciardo?

The race win didn’t buy him time at all, he didn’t need time bought. Red Bull knew he had been dropped in mid season and were massively impressed from start to finish through 2016.

But you at least acknowledge that drivers can and do improve, including the very benchmark you are using to measure Albon. Funny that.


No, because I knew that Verstappen had talent and was the better driver than Sainz. I was unconvinced by Sainz and both have continued on just how I would expect.

All Max did was get more consistent and deliver at virtually every event once we got to 2017. His peak performances were demonstrated very early on.

Albon's peak performances have already been demonstrated to us too, that is my point. And he hasn't done anything special yet, so his peak performances are going to be low for him.

Everyone else here who is disagreeing with me thinks that Albon will find a tonne of pace soon and start delivering some top notch peak performances. I seriously doubt that he will.

He's also got this annoying, smiley, gentlemanly vibe to him personality-wise, which reeks of him compensating for a lack of talent. The true talents of the field can afford to get grumpy and be rude on the radio or give the occasional controversial interview etc. because they know that they are going nowhere as their talent speaks for itself. The slow guys can't afford to be impolite.

Literally no one is saying that. Stop making things up.

Also, your agenda is on display now with your final paragraph, so you might as well stop pretending you're analysing his performances objectively. It's ok to be a fanboy and have no rational reason to like or dislike a driver, but don't do that and then claim to be an impartial observer. You have no credibility around here so you might as well embrace it.


:thumbup: put into words exactly what I thought


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:37 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Yes its all a bit weird, is it possible that Verstappen is a driver that has an inhibiting effect on his team mate I wonder, Ricciardo, Kvyatt, Gasly all seemed to suffer. I actually think that Albon has not got worse but is not as quick as Max........Yet :uhoh:

Well I'm guessing you missed my post that says that the Red Bull cars might not be exactly the same?


Any evidence? Or even people in the know speculating?

It might have been Matthew Carter, his latest missed apex podcast was very revealing .

Hamilton was eaten by a dinosaur.

In other news, it has been said that Hamilton was eaten by a dinosaur. I don't remember where I read it but it most definitely is a fact.

An ex F1 team principle and your F1 accreditation would be?

Anyway I'm sure that the new F1 rules for 2021 specify that the teams cars must run in identical spec, so would you still be thinking drivers not having the same spec cars never happens or you know when this ever happens?

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:02 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
I've nothing against Albon (unlike F1 Racer, I actually kind of like him), but I find it a bit weird the standard to which he's held. The people behind me at turn one kept talking about how he had such a great drive and should be driver of the day, but as far as I could tell he delivered the minimum result expected and passed a lot of slower cars. I think Max would have ended up in front of Leclerc for sure if he'd been in the same situation.

Is it just that Gasly did so poorly that people are comparing Albon to that standard?

Albon's hard tyres were defective and Pirelli wouldn't let Red Bull use them, so Albon was forced into doing a 3 stop strategy, and stretch the tyre life of the tyres he was using. Had he been able to use the hard tyres he would have easily beaten Leclerc (although they probably wouldn't have pitted Leclerc for the fastest lap pitstop if he was in danger from Albon).


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 1:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well I'm guessing you missed my post that says that the Red Bull cars might not be exactly the same?


Any evidence? Or even people in the know speculating?

It might have been Matthew Carter, his latest missed apex podcast was very revealing .

Hamilton was eaten by a dinosaur.

In other news, it has been said that Hamilton was eaten by a dinosaur. I don't remember where I read it but it most definitely is a fact.

An ex F1 team principle and your F1 accreditation would be?

Anyway I'm sure that the new F1 rules for 2021 specify that the teams cars must run in identical spec, so would you still be thinking drivers not having the same spec cars never happens or you know when this ever happens?

AFAIK you are the one that has come out with this information, are you an ex F1 team principle?
I'm not saying that Verstappen doesn't have a different car than his teammate's, but you are once again talking about things you think you might have heard somewhere and present them as facts because it happens to suit your personal agenda.

Even if it is an ex F1 team principal (waiting for a link on that though), does that mean he would have insider information about it and why would he be spilling the beans about such matters?

It all smells too fishy for me, but still I'm not saying it's untrue.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 4:50 pm 
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This is simply speculation on my part, but is it possible that RB are running the same cars but they are designed around Verstappen's driving? Therefore, Gasly and, to a lesser extent, Albon have not been able to extract the max (no pun intended) from it that Verstappen has?

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:36 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
This is simply speculation on my part, but is it possible that RB are running the same cars but they are designed around Verstappen's driving? Therefore, Gasly and, to a lesser extent, Albon have not been able to extract the max (no pun intended) from it that Verstappen has?


I'm sure I read somewhere a few years ago a team boss saying it is impossible to design a car around a specific persons driving style.


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