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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 6:57 pm 
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Kev627 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
This is simply speculation on my part, but is it possible that RB are running the same cars but they are designed around Verstappen's driving? Therefore, Gasly and, to a lesser extent, Albon have not been able to extract the max (no pun intended) from it that Verstappen has?

I'm sure I read somewhere a few years ago a team boss saying it is impossible to design a car around a specific persons driving style.

Cheers... that's a speculative frump from my rear end then..!

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:01 pm 
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Kev627 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
This is simply speculation on my part, but is it possible that RB are running the same cars but they are designed around Verstappen's driving? Therefore, Gasly and, to a lesser extent, Albon have not been able to extract the max (no pun intended) from it that Verstappen has?


I'm sure I read somewhere a few years ago a team boss saying it is impossible to design a car around a specific persons driving style.

I still think this is more likely than them going through all that trouble of making two differing cars.
Remember back when Kimi was at Lotus and he had them put in considerable resources into redesigning the front suspension and steering to get it to his liking?

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:37 pm 
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Mclaren had 5-6 diferent front suspensions for Montoya and Kimi in 2005/06 too. Mclaren technical folk have gone on record saying the 2 cars ran two completely different concepts and it was close to running two completely different front ends. The same occured with Alesi and Berger when they were team mates too at both Ferrari and Benetton.

That is when the team try to accomodate the other driver, now if they don't have the resources, need or will to support the second driver he doesn't get his custom made suspension or whatever and just looks slow.. likely the case with Gasly because he moves back to TR and suddenly looks very impressive again.

Kimi was 6-1 down in qualifying to a rookie Grosjean in 2012 and looked a bit underwhelming, especially over 1 lap, then they moved the car toward his style and he was on fire and blowing Grosjean away.

2008, Ferrari ignored Raikkonens specific needs and after dominating the start of 2008 once the updates favoured Massa he dropped like a stone.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 7:58 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
I've nothing against Albon (unlike F1 Racer, I actually kind of like him), but I find it a bit weird the standard to which he's held. The people behind me at turn one kept talking about how he had such a great drive and should be driver of the day, but as far as I could tell he delivered the minimum result expected and passed a lot of slower cars. I think Max would have ended up in front of Leclerc for sure if he'd been in the same situation.

Is it just that Gasly did so poorly that people are comparing Albon to that standard?

This is my thought as well. Suzuka aside, Albon has struggled to get even within half a second of Verstappen in qualifying, and his race pace has been little better. I don't care how good Verstappen is, that is much to large a gap for Albon to be justifying winning the seat next year. No driver in a top team should be that far off anyone.

Albon (and indeed either of the Toro Rosso drivers) can only get that seat next year if Red Bull decide to stick stubbornly to their driver programme even when it's clear it has not produced anyone of the required standard. Makes little sense to me when Hulkenberg is available.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:07 pm 
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jono794 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
But you agree, Verstappen massively improved though right?

He went from an average of 0.5 behind over his first 8 races in 2016 to ahead in 2017. Nobody knew how quick Verstappen/Sainz were in 2015 because both were rookies. Let’s not forgot, Sainz out qualified him too. So back in 2016, I’m sure you would have been saying Verstappen had terrible qualifying pace after being match by Sainz and destroyed by Ricciardo?

The race win didn’t buy him time at all, he didn’t need time bought. Red Bull knew he had been dropped in mid season and were massively impressed from start to finish through 2016.

But you at least acknowledge that drivers can and do improve, including the very benchmark you are using to measure Albon. Funny that.


No, because I knew that Verstappen had talent and was the better driver than Sainz. I was unconvinced by Sainz and both have continued on just how I would expect.

All Max did was get more consistent and deliver at virtually every event once we got to 2017. His peak performances were demonstrated very early on.

Albon's peak performances have already been demonstrated to us too, that is my point. And he hasn't done anything special yet, so his peak performances are going to be low for him.

Everyone else here who is disagreeing with me thinks that Albon will find a tonne of pace soon and start delivering some top notch peak performances. I seriously doubt that he will.

He's also got this annoying, smiley, gentlemanly vibe to him personality-wise, which reeks of him compensating for a lack of talent. The true talents of the field can afford to get grumpy and be rude on the radio or give the occasional controversial interview etc. because they know that they are going nowhere as their talent speaks for itself. The slow guys can't afford to be impolite.

Literally no one is saying that. Stop making things up.

Also, your agenda is on display now with your final paragraph, so you might as well stop pretending you're analysing his performances objectively. It's ok to be a fanboy and have no rational reason to like or dislike a driver, but don't do that and then claim to be an impartial observer. You have no credibility around here so you might as well embrace it.



Actually that is exactly what they are covertly implying with their disagreements, even if they are not overtly saying it.

I am clearly saying that I don't think Albon is good enough currently, or will ever be good enough next season either. Anyone disagreeing is in effect saying that they do believe he will come good, (not necessarily 'top tier' good, but at least good enough to justify being put in a top three car and being in the mix regularly at the front).


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:16 pm 
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j man wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I've nothing against Albon (unlike F1 Racer, I actually kind of like him), but I find it a bit weird the standard to which he's held. The people behind me at turn one kept talking about how he had such a great drive and should be driver of the day, but as far as I could tell he delivered the minimum result expected and passed a lot of slower cars. I think Max would have ended up in front of Leclerc for sure if he'd been in the same situation.

Is it just that Gasly did so poorly that people are comparing Albon to that standard?

This is my thought as well. Suzuka aside, Albon has struggled to get even within half a second of Verstappen in qualifying, and his race pace has been little better. I don't care how good Verstappen is, that is much to large a gap for Albon to be justifying winning the seat next year. No driver in a top team should be that far off anyone.

Albon (and indeed either of the Toro Rosso drivers) can only get that seat next year if Red Bull decide to stick stubbornly to their driver programme even when it's clear it has not produced anyone of the required standard. Makes little sense to me when Hulkenberg is available.


Finally some people seeing where I am coming from.

We look at Leclerc and he got pole in his 23rd grand prix and should have won it if it weren't for the car failing towards the end. He also showed no fear and great racecraft to pass others after he had a slow start. This was Leclerc coming to a new team where ''everything is new for him'', and he supposedly ''needs time to settle'' etc. Also in his first race for Ferrari he was hounding Vettel towards the end of the race as he came home a close 5th.

Albon has had 19 races now, of which 7 of those have been with a new team, but supposedly according to a lot of posters here, he will need another year or more to get on the pace to start at least occasionally giving the top 5 some trouble in the races, (again, not saying he needs to be on pole and win like Leclerc showed in his second 'top drive' race, but just be pushing the front guys and showing he belongs in the lead group of cars).

Is there really a huge difference between 19 races and 23 races, and having that extra pre-season to be acclimatised to F1? I don't think so personally, if Albon was going to do decent things in the sport he would be showing us much more than he is currently showing us. So all these comments about Albon earning the Red Bull seat on merit next year and being driver of the day are laughable really.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:31 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
j man wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I've nothing against Albon (unlike F1 Racer, I actually kind of like him), but I find it a bit weird the standard to which he's held. The people behind me at turn one kept talking about how he had such a great drive and should be driver of the day, but as far as I could tell he delivered the minimum result expected and passed a lot of slower cars. I think Max would have ended up in front of Leclerc for sure if he'd been in the same situation.

Is it just that Gasly did so poorly that people are comparing Albon to that standard?

This is my thought as well. Suzuka aside, Albon has struggled to get even within half a second of Verstappen in qualifying, and his race pace has been little better. I don't care how good Verstappen is, that is much to large a gap for Albon to be justifying winning the seat next year. No driver in a top team should be that far off anyone.

Albon (and indeed either of the Toro Rosso drivers) can only get that seat next year if Red Bull decide to stick stubbornly to their driver programme even when it's clear it has not produced anyone of the required standard. Makes little sense to me when Hulkenberg is available.


Finally some people seeing where I am coming from.

We look at Leclerc and he got pole in his 23rd grand prix and should have won it if it weren't for the car failing towards the end. He also showed no fear and great racecraft to pass others after he had a slow start. This was Leclerc coming to a new team where ''everything is new for him'', and he supposedly ''needs time to settle'' etc. Also in his first race for Ferrari he was hounding Vettel towards the end of the race as he came home a close 5th.

Albon has had 19 races now, of which 7 of those have been with a new team, but supposedly according to a lot of posters here, he will need another year or more to get on the pace to start at least occasionally giving the top 5 some trouble in the races, (again, not saying he needs to be on pole and win like Leclerc showed in his second 'top drive' race, but just be pushing the front guys and showing he belongs in the lead group of cars).

Is there really a huge difference between 19 races and 23 races, and having that extra pre-season to be acclimatised to F1? I don't think so personally, if Albon was going to do decent things in the sport he would be showing us much more than he is currently showing us. So all these comments about Albon earning the Red Bull seat on merit next year and being driver of the day are laughable really.


Problem is though, you are colouring the picture in an unbalanced way. Why have you not factored in that Albon had defective hard tyres at the weekend or that MV has had 6 years to hone his skills learning the circuits and Albon is seeing them for the first time.

Of the new young drivers this year who do you consider is worthy of making Max's coffee in the workshop then?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:37 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
j man wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I've nothing against Albon (unlike F1 Racer, I actually kind of like him), but I find it a bit weird the standard to which he's held. The people behind me at turn one kept talking about how he had such a great drive and should be driver of the day, but as far as I could tell he delivered the minimum result expected and passed a lot of slower cars. I think Max would have ended up in front of Leclerc for sure if he'd been in the same situation.

Is it just that Gasly did so poorly that people are comparing Albon to that standard?

This is my thought as well. Suzuka aside, Albon has struggled to get even within half a second of Verstappen in qualifying, and his race pace has been little better. I don't care how good Verstappen is, that is much to large a gap for Albon to be justifying winning the seat next year. No driver in a top team should be that far off anyone.

Albon (and indeed either of the Toro Rosso drivers) can only get that seat next year if Red Bull decide to stick stubbornly to their driver programme even when it's clear it has not produced anyone of the required standard. Makes little sense to me when Hulkenberg is available.


Finally some people seeing where I am coming from.

We look at Leclerc and he got pole in his 23rd grand prix and should have won it if it weren't for the car failing towards the end. He also showed no fear and great racecraft to pass others after he had a slow start. This was Leclerc coming to a new team where ''everything is new for him'', and he supposedly ''needs time to settle'' etc. Also in his first race for Ferrari he was hounding Vettel towards the end of the race as he came home a close 5th.

Albon has had 19 races now, of which 7 of those have been with a new team, but supposedly according to a lot of posters here, he will need another year or more to get on the pace to start at least occasionally giving the top 5 some trouble in the races, (again, not saying he needs to be on pole and win like Leclerc showed in his second 'top drive' race, but just be pushing the front guys and showing he belongs in the lead group of cars).

Is there really a huge difference between 19 races and 23 races, and having that extra pre-season to be acclimatised to F1? I don't think so personally, if Albon was going to do decent things in the sport he would be showing us much more than he is currently showing us. So all these comments about Albon earning the Red Bull seat on merit next year and being driver of the day are laughable really.


Problem is though, you are colouring the picture in an unbalanced way. Why have you not factored in that Albon had defective hard tyres at the weekend or that MV has had 6 years to hone his skills learning the circuits and Albon is seeing them for the first time.

Of the new young drivers this year who do you consider is worthy of making Max's coffee in the workshop then?


This is nothing to do with Max, I am comparing him to Leclerc or any other fairly decent young driver that gets on the pace pretty quickly in comparison.

Although speaking of Max, I remember being impressed with him in his first race in Australia 2015, so he didn't take 6 years to get up to speed, it was more like 6 minutes.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:05 pm 
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I get that but you really should be suggesting who that might be rather than dismissing Kyatt, Gasly and Albon so readily. Personally I suspect Albon has more about him than you suggest but who do you think should be replacing him then.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 9:27 pm 
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j man wrote:
Albon (and indeed either of the Toro Rosso drivers) can only get that seat next year if Red Bull decide to stick stubbornly to their driver programme even when it's clear it has not produced anyone of the required standard. Makes little sense to me when Hulkenberg is available.

I'm not sure about Hulk being an upgrade on Albon, to be honest.

Albon (as a rookie) seems to be about 4-5 tenths off Max in pace. Ricciardo was about 1.5 tenths off on average, although that varied year by year. Hulk seems to be 2-3 tenths slower than Ricciardo, so would he really be any faster than Albon? Additionally, Hulk has definitely peaked, whereas Albon almost certainly hasn't.

I think giving Albon another year makes sense, just to see how much he improves when he's had a full year to get used to F1 and the car. If he ends that year still 4 tenths off Max, it's time to go looking for another driver.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:52 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
j man wrote:
Albon (and indeed either of the Toro Rosso drivers) can only get that seat next year if Red Bull decide to stick stubbornly to their driver programme even when it's clear it has not produced anyone of the required standard. Makes little sense to me when Hulkenberg is available.

I'm not sure about Hulk being an upgrade on Albon, to be honest.

Albon (as a rookie) seems to be about 4-5 tenths off Max in pace. Ricciardo was about 1.5 tenths off on average, although that varied year by year. Hulk seems to be 2-3 tenths slower than Ricciardo, so would he really be any faster than Albon? Additionally, Hulk has definitely peaked, whereas Albon almost certainly hasn't.

I think giving Albon another year makes sense, just to see how much he improves when he's had a full year to get used to F1 and the car. If he ends that year still 4 tenths off Max, it's time to go looking for another driver.

Ricciardo has admittedly got the better of Hulkenberg this year, but I'm not sure he's been as much as 2-3 tenths slower. According to the link below the average qualifying gap is 0.08s, and 37-46 in championship points is not too shabby.

https://www.racefans.net/2019-f1-season ... ying-data/

While I agree that there is more to come from Albon, I just don't think the top teams have the luxury of waiting a year or two for a driver in one of their race seats to come good because it can cost them crucial championship points. If Red Bull still had Verstappen and Ricciardo this year it's not inconceivable that they could have been challenging Ferrari for 2nd place in the constructors' table, instead they're over 100 points behind because their second driver(s) have failed to ever finish higher than 4th, and even that has only happened twice all year. I think Red Bull would be better off letting Albon learn his craft and prove himself in the midfield first, and stick a more proven entity like Hulkenberg in the second seat until he demonstrates that he can deliver.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:05 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
j man wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I've nothing against Albon (unlike F1 Racer, I actually kind of like him), but I find it a bit weird the standard to which he's held. The people behind me at turn one kept talking about how he had such a great drive and should be driver of the day, but as far as I could tell he delivered the minimum result expected and passed a lot of slower cars. I think Max would have ended up in front of Leclerc for sure if he'd been in the same situation.

Is it just that Gasly did so poorly that people are comparing Albon to that standard?

This is my thought as well. Suzuka aside, Albon has struggled to get even within half a second of Verstappen in qualifying, and his race pace has been little better. I don't care how good Verstappen is, that is much to large a gap for Albon to be justifying winning the seat next year. No driver in a top team should be that far off anyone.

Albon (and indeed either of the Toro Rosso drivers) can only get that seat next year if Red Bull decide to stick stubbornly to their driver programme even when it's clear it has not produced anyone of the required standard. Makes little sense to me when Hulkenberg is available.


Finally some people seeing where I am coming from.

We look at Leclerc and he got pole in his 23rd grand prix and should have won it if it weren't for the car failing towards the end. He also showed no fear and great racecraft to pass others after he had a slow start. This was Leclerc coming to a new team where ''everything is new for him'', and he supposedly ''needs time to settle'' etc. Also in his first race for Ferrari he was hounding Vettel towards the end of the race as he came home a close 5th.

Albon has had 19 races now, of which 7 of those have been with a new team, but supposedly according to a lot of posters here, he will need another year or more to get on the pace to start at least occasionally giving the top 5 some trouble in the races, (again, not saying he needs to be on pole and win like Leclerc showed in his second 'top drive' race, but just be pushing the front guys and showing he belongs in the lead group of cars).

Is there really a huge difference between 19 races and 23 races, and having that extra pre-season to be acclimatised to F1? I don't think so personally, if Albon was going to do decent things in the sport he would be showing us much more than he is currently showing us. So all these comments about Albon earning the Red Bull seat on merit next year and being driver of the day are laughable really.

There is a huge difference between the 19 races completed by Albon and the 23 completed by Leclerc. Leclerc spent a full season in 1 team and then moved straight to Ferrari where he would have spent the entire winter and pre-season in the Ferrari environment and simulator which would have helped him understood the developmental feedback process within Ferrari and the art to setting his new car. That experience should not be taken for granted. Not only has Albon not even completed a full season in the sport, he has done it across two different teams and I imagine only recently has got the chance to spend significant time in the Red Bull simulator. Assuming Albon is retained by Red Bull, I imagine we'll see the average lap time difference between himself and Verstappen come down markedly in the first few races of 2020. The guy isnt outstanding yet, but then I didnt expect him to be. Drivers like Hamilton and Verstappen (and potentially Leclerc) dont come along very often.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 11:32 pm 
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angrypirate wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
j man wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I've nothing against Albon (unlike F1 Racer, I actually kind of like him), but I find it a bit weird the standard to which he's held. The people behind me at turn one kept talking about how he had such a great drive and should be driver of the day, but as far as I could tell he delivered the minimum result expected and passed a lot of slower cars. I think Max would have ended up in front of Leclerc for sure if he'd been in the same situation.

Is it just that Gasly did so poorly that people are comparing Albon to that standard?

This is my thought as well. Suzuka aside, Albon has struggled to get even within half a second of Verstappen in qualifying, and his race pace has been little better. I don't care how good Verstappen is, that is much to large a gap for Albon to be justifying winning the seat next year. No driver in a top team should be that far off anyone.

Albon (and indeed either of the Toro Rosso drivers) can only get that seat next year if Red Bull decide to stick stubbornly to their driver programme even when it's clear it has not produced anyone of the required standard. Makes little sense to me when Hulkenberg is available.


Finally some people seeing where I am coming from.

We look at Leclerc and he got pole in his 23rd grand prix and should have won it if it weren't for the car failing towards the end. He also showed no fear and great racecraft to pass others after he had a slow start. This was Leclerc coming to a new team where ''everything is new for him'', and he supposedly ''needs time to settle'' etc. Also in his first race for Ferrari he was hounding Vettel towards the end of the race as he came home a close 5th.

Albon has had 19 races now, of which 7 of those have been with a new team, but supposedly according to a lot of posters here, he will need another year or more to get on the pace to start at least occasionally giving the top 5 some trouble in the races, (again, not saying he needs to be on pole and win like Leclerc showed in his second 'top drive' race, but just be pushing the front guys and showing he belongs in the lead group of cars).

Is there really a huge difference between 19 races and 23 races, and having that extra pre-season to be acclimatised to F1? I don't think so personally, if Albon was going to do decent things in the sport he would be showing us much more than he is currently showing us. So all these comments about Albon earning the Red Bull seat on merit next year and being driver of the day are laughable really.

There is a huge difference between the 19 races completed by Albon and the 23 completed by Leclerc. Leclerc spent a full season in 1 team and then moved straight to Ferrari where he would have spent the entire winter and pre-season in the Ferrari environment and simulator which would have helped him understood the developmental feedback process within Ferrari and the art to setting his new car. That experience should not be taken for granted. Not only has Albon not even completed a full season in the sport, he has done it across two different teams and I imagine only recently has got the chance to spend significant time in the Red Bull simulator. Assuming Albon is retained by Red Bull, I imagine we'll see the average lap time difference between himself and Verstappen come down markedly in the first few races of 2020. The guy isnt outstanding yet, but then I didnt expect him to be. Drivers like Hamilton and Verstappen (and potentially Leclerc) dont come along very often.


Albon is performing OK.
However what Red Bull really need is a driver that can get into positions to help Max win a championship.
And to me that driver is not Albon at the moment.

They would be much better off with Hulk. In car set up, in maturity, in holding up title rivals on track where needed etc.

Put Albon back to Toro Rosso and let him develop without the extra pressure.

Max with 1.5 years and Dan with 2 years at Toro Rosso showed instant promise when promoted to Red Bull.
Albon driving to around 6th each race (4th his best) is what most drivers on the grid could achieve in that car.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:16 am 
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angrypirate wrote:
There is a huge difference between the 19 races completed by Albon and the 23 completed by Leclerc. Leclerc spent a full season in 1 team and then moved straight to Ferrari where he would have spent the entire winter and pre-season in the Ferrari environment and simulator which would have helped him understood the developmental feedback process within Ferrari and the art to setting his new car.


Leclerc was also the test driver for Ferrari and Haas for two years before that.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:30 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Any evidence? Or even people in the know speculating?

It might have been Matthew Carter, his latest missed apex podcast was very revealing .

Hamilton was eaten by a dinosaur.

In other news, it has been said that Hamilton was eaten by a dinosaur. I don't remember where I read it but it most definitely is a fact.

An ex F1 team principle and your F1 accreditation would be?

Anyway I'm sure that the new F1 rules for 2021 specify that the teams cars must run in identical spec, so would you still be thinking drivers not having the same spec cars never happens or you know when this ever happens?

AFAIK you are the one that has come out with this information, are you an ex F1 team principle?
I'm not saying that Verstappen doesn't have a different car than his teammate's, but you are once again talking about things you think you might have heard somewhere and present them as facts because it happens to suit your personal agenda.

Even if it is an ex F1 team principal (waiting for a link on that though), does that mean he would have insider information about it and why would he be spilling the beans about such matters?

It all smells too fishy for me, but still I'm not saying it's untrue.

Carter spilled the beans about a lot of things, I just pass on things that I hear, in respect to Vertsappen I'm always respectful about his ability.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:32 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
This is simply speculation on my part, but is it possible that RB are running the same cars but they are designed around Verstappen's driving? Therefore, Gasly and, to a lesser extent, Albon have not been able to extract the max (no pun intended) from it that Verstappen has?

I got the impression it was more about one driver getting newer parts first?

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:38 am 
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j man wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I've nothing against Albon (unlike F1 Racer, I actually kind of like him), but I find it a bit weird the standard to which he's held. The people behind me at turn one kept talking about how he had such a great drive and should be driver of the day, but as far as I could tell he delivered the minimum result expected and passed a lot of slower cars. I think Max would have ended up in front of Leclerc for sure if he'd been in the same situation.

Is it just that Gasly did so poorly that people are comparing Albon to that standard?

This is my thought as well. Suzuka aside, Albon has struggled to get even within half a second of Verstappen in qualifying, and his race pace has been little better. I don't care how good Verstappen is, that is much to large a gap for Albon to be justifying winning the seat next year. No driver in a top team should be that far off anyone.

Albon (and indeed either of the Toro Rosso drivers) can only get that seat next year if Red Bull decide to stick stubbornly to their driver programme even when it's clear it has not produced anyone of the required standard. Makes little sense to me when Hulkenberg is available.

I think it's being missed that Albon is a rookie that had to change teams mid season and is presently doing a better job than Gasly managed to do.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:45 am 
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Randine wrote:
Albon driving to around 6th each race (4th his best) is what most drivers on the grid could achieve in that car.

FWIW since joining Red Bull his average finishing position is 5.1. Personally I'd call that "around 5th".


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 12:55 am 
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j man wrote:
Exediron wrote:
j man wrote:
Albon (and indeed either of the Toro Rosso drivers) can only get that seat next year if Red Bull decide to stick stubbornly to their driver programme even when it's clear it has not produced anyone of the required standard. Makes little sense to me when Hulkenberg is available.

I'm not sure about Hulk being an upgrade on Albon, to be honest.

Albon (as a rookie) seems to be about 4-5 tenths off Max in pace. Ricciardo was about 1.5 tenths off on average, although that varied year by year. Hulk seems to be 2-3 tenths slower than Ricciardo, so would he really be any faster than Albon? Additionally, Hulk has definitely peaked, whereas Albon almost certainly hasn't.

I think giving Albon another year makes sense, just to see how much he improves when he's had a full year to get used to F1 and the car. If he ends that year still 4 tenths off Max, it's time to go looking for another driver.

Ricciardo has admittedly got the better of Hulkenberg this year, but I'm not sure he's been as much as 2-3 tenths slower. According to the link below the average qualifying gap is 0.08s, and 37-46 in championship points is not too shabby.

https://www.racefans.net/2019-f1-season ... ying-data/

While I agree that there is more to come from Albon, I just don't think the top teams have the luxury of waiting a year or two for a driver in one of their race seats to come good because it can cost them crucial championship points. If Red Bull still had Verstappen and Ricciardo this year it's not inconceivable that they could have been challenging Ferrari for 2nd place in the constructors' table, instead they're over 100 points behind because their second driver(s) have failed to ever finish higher than 4th, and even that has only happened twice all year. I think Red Bull would be better off letting Albon learn his craft and prove himself in the midfield first, and stick a more proven entity like Hulkenberg in the second seat until he demonstrates that he can deliver.

Yeah I have Ricciardo presently 1 tenth quicker than the Hulk which puts the Hulk towards 3 tenths slower than Verstappen whilst Verstappen is presently 4 tenths quicker than Albon which makes the Hulk little more than a tenth quicker than Albon who is a rookie, I don't see that as enough reason to replace Albon with the Hulk.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:11 am 
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Johnson wrote:
Mclaren had 5-6 diferent front suspensions for Montoya and Kimi in 2005/06 too. Mclaren technical folk have gone on record saying the 2 cars ran two completely different concepts and it was close to running two completely different front ends. The same occured with Alesi and Berger when they were team mates too at both Ferrari and Benetton.

That is when the team try to accomodate the other driver, now if they don't have the resources, need or will to support the second driver he doesn't get his custom made suspension or whatever and just looks slow.. likely the case with Gasly because he moves back to TR and suddenly looks very impressive again.

Kimi was 6-1 down in qualifying to a rookie Grosjean in 2012 and looked a bit underwhelming, especially over 1 lap, then they moved the car toward his style and he was on fire and blowing Grosjean away.

2008, Ferrari ignored Raikkonens specific needs and after dominating the start of 2008 once the updates favoured Massa he dropped like a stone.

Good elaboration :thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:14 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Hamilton was eaten by a dinosaur.

In other news, it has been said that Hamilton was eaten by a dinosaur. I don't remember where I read it but it most definitely is a fact.

An ex F1 team principle and your F1 accreditation would be?

Anyway I'm sure that the new F1 rules for 2021 specify that the teams cars must run in identical spec, so would you still be thinking drivers not having the same spec cars never happens or you know when this ever happens?

AFAIK you are the one that has come out with this information, are you an ex F1 team principle?
I'm not saying that Verstappen doesn't have a different car than his teammate's, but you are once again talking about things you think you might have heard somewhere and present them as facts because it happens to suit your personal agenda.

Even if it is an ex F1 team principal (waiting for a link on that though), does that mean he would have insider information about it and why would he be spilling the beans about such matters?

It all smells too fishy for me, but still I'm not saying it's untrue.

Carter spilled the beans about a lot of things, I just pass on things that I hear, in respect to Vertsappen I'm always respectful about his ability.

Never heard of an team principal Carter so it must have been back in the day he would probably not have any insider information about Verstappen, rather just speculation to get some clicks.

You actually started the whole "Verstappen has a different car" line of debate by saying " it has been said that Verstappen's teammates don't have the same car."
Then you in some other conversation use that rather vague bit of (mis?)information as something that sounds like factual evidence by saying "Well I'm guessing you missed my post that says that the Red Bull cars might not be exactly the same?"

Hence my dinosaur analogy.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:29 am 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Hamilton was eaten by a dinosaur.

In other news, it has been said that Hamilton was eaten by a dinosaur. I don't remember where I read it but it most definitely is a fact.

An ex F1 team principle and your F1 accreditation would be?

Anyway I'm sure that the new F1 rules for 2021 specify that the teams cars must run in identical spec, so would you still be thinking drivers not having the same spec cars never happens or you know when this ever happens?

AFAIK you are the one that has come out with this information, are you an ex F1 team principle?
I'm not saying that Verstappen doesn't have a different car than his teammate's, but you are once again talking about things you think you might have heard somewhere and present them as facts because it happens to suit your personal agenda.

Even if it is an ex F1 team principal (waiting for a link on that though), does that mean he would have insider information about it and why would he be spilling the beans about such matters?

It all smells too fishy for me, but still I'm not saying it's untrue.

Carter spilled the beans about a lot of things, I just pass on things that I hear, in respect to Vertsappen I'm always respectful about his ability.

Never heard of an team principal Carter so it must have been back in the day he would probably not have any insider information about Verstappen, rather just speculation to get some clicks.

You actually started the whole "Verstappen has a different car" line of debate by saying " it has been said that Verstappen's teammates don't have the same car."
Then you in some other conversation use that rather vague bit of (mis?)information as something that sounds like factual evidence by saying "Well I'm guessing you missed my post that says that the Red Bull cars might not be exactly the same?"

Hence my dinosaur analogy.


He was team principle at Lotus. The Lotus that became Renault.

Personally I'd be surprised if the cars were different. The speed difference between Verstappen and Albon is pretty much what one would expect using cross driver comparisons.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:05 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Hamilton was eaten by a dinosaur.

In other news, it has been said that Hamilton was eaten by a dinosaur. I don't remember where I read it but it most definitely is a fact.

An ex F1 team principle and your F1 accreditation would be?

Anyway I'm sure that the new F1 rules for 2021 specify that the teams cars must run in identical spec, so would you still be thinking drivers not having the same spec cars never happens or you know when this ever happens?

AFAIK you are the one that has come out with this information, are you an ex F1 team principle?
I'm not saying that Verstappen doesn't have a different car than his teammate's, but you are once again talking about things you think you might have heard somewhere and present them as facts because it happens to suit your personal agenda.

Even if it is an ex F1 team principal (waiting for a link on that though), does that mean he would have insider information about it and why would he be spilling the beans about such matters?

It all smells too fishy for me, but still I'm not saying it's untrue.

Carter spilled the beans about a lot of things, I just pass on things that I hear, in respect to Vertsappen I'm always respectful about his ability.

Never heard of an team principal Carter so it must have been back in the day he would probably not have any insider information about Verstappen, rather just speculation to get some clicks.

You actually started the whole "Verstappen has a different car" line of debate by saying " it has been said that Verstappen's teammates don't have the same car."
Then you in some other conversation use that rather vague bit of (mis?)information as something that sounds like factual evidence by saying "Well I'm guessing you missed my post that says that the Red Bull cars might not be exactly the same?"

Hence my dinosaur analogy.

It's not his podcast and it's not something he would receive financial benefit for, he just happens to be a fan of the podcast.

These people get to hear things within the F1 paddock so it's also interesting to hear what they have to say, occasionally I pass on what gets said and that's all it is.

Also look at my wording, it's been said, the cars might not be exactly the same, it's not exactly a statement of fact but just passing on the gossip.

As for your dinosaur comment, well I put more weight on what people in the industry might have to say.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
An ex F1 team principle and your F1 accreditation would be?

Anyway I'm sure that the new F1 rules for 2021 specify that the teams cars must run in identical spec, so would you still be thinking drivers not having the same spec cars never happens or you know when this ever happens?

AFAIK you are the one that has come out with this information, are you an ex F1 team principle?
I'm not saying that Verstappen doesn't have a different car than his teammate's, but you are once again talking about things you think you might have heard somewhere and present them as facts because it happens to suit your personal agenda.

Even if it is an ex F1 team principal (waiting for a link on that though), does that mean he would have insider information about it and why would he be spilling the beans about such matters?

It all smells too fishy for me, but still I'm not saying it's untrue.

Carter spilled the beans about a lot of things, I just pass on things that I hear, in respect to Vertsappen I'm always respectful about his ability.

Never heard of an team principal Carter so it must have been back in the day he would probably not have any insider information about Verstappen, rather just speculation to get some clicks.

You actually started the whole "Verstappen has a different car" line of debate by saying " it has been said that Verstappen's teammates don't have the same car."
Then you in some other conversation use that rather vague bit of (mis?)information as something that sounds like factual evidence by saying "Well I'm guessing you missed my post that says that the Red Bull cars might not be exactly the same?"

Hence my dinosaur analogy.


He was team principle at Lotus. The Lotus that became Renault.

Personally I'd be surprised if the cars were different. The speed difference between Verstappen and Albon is pretty much what one would expect using cross driver comparisons.

I would also be a bit surprised but then again it happened recently at McLaren if you would believe Vandoorne who said his performance gap to Alonso is not as large as it appears.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:18 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
AFAIK you are the one that has come out with this information, are you an ex F1 team principle?
I'm not saying that Verstappen doesn't have a different car than his teammate's, but you are once again talking about things you think you might have heard somewhere and present them as facts because it happens to suit your personal agenda.

Even if it is an ex F1 team principal (waiting for a link on that though), does that mean he would have insider information about it and why would he be spilling the beans about such matters?

It all smells too fishy for me, but still I'm not saying it's untrue.

Carter spilled the beans about a lot of things, I just pass on things that I hear, in respect to Vertsappen I'm always respectful about his ability.

Never heard of an team principal Carter so it must have been back in the day he would probably not have any insider information about Verstappen, rather just speculation to get some clicks.

You actually started the whole "Verstappen has a different car" line of debate by saying " it has been said that Verstappen's teammates don't have the same car."
Then you in some other conversation use that rather vague bit of (mis?)information as something that sounds like factual evidence by saying "Well I'm guessing you missed my post that says that the Red Bull cars might not be exactly the same?"

Hence my dinosaur analogy.


He was team principle at Lotus. The Lotus that became Renault.

Personally I'd be surprised if the cars were different. The speed difference between Verstappen and Albon is pretty much what one would expect using cross driver comparisons.

I would also be a bit surprised but then again it happened recently at McLaren if you would believe Vandoorne who said his performance gap to Alonso is not as large as it appears.


One other thing he did say which caught my attention and is quite relevant to this thread was that the Verstappen camp is pushing for an experienced driver to be put alongside Max for 2020.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Never heard of an team principal Carter so it must have been back in the day he would probably not have any insider information about Verstappen, rather just speculation to get some clicks.

You actually started the whole "Verstappen has a different car" line of debate by saying " it has been said that Verstappen's teammates don't have the same car."
Then you in some other conversation use that rather vague bit of (mis?)information as something that sounds like factual evidence by saying "Well I'm guessing you missed my post that says that the Red Bull cars might not be exactly the same?"

Hence my dinosaur analogy.


He was team principle at Lotus. The Lotus that became Renault.

Personally I'd be surprised if the cars were different. The speed difference between Verstappen and Albon is pretty much what one would expect using cross driver comparisons.

I would also be a bit surprised but then again it happened recently at McLaren if you would believe Vandoorne who said his performance gap to Alonso is not as large as it appears.


One other thing he did say which caught my attention and is quite relevant to this thread was that the Verstappen camp is pushing for an experienced driver to be put alongside Max for 2020.


This makes sense, at the moment the Verstappen camp realise that he is going to battle on his own vs four other cars each race. He needs the other Red Bull to be competitive with the front bunch to help take points off the other drivers and also to interfere with their potential strategies, (Hamilton wouldn't have pitted for a second time in Hungary if the second Red Bull was within a pit stop of him for example), to make it easier for a Verstappen WDC.

If we look at the performances of solid number twos over periods of domination in the past, (Barrichello, Webber and Bottas spring to mind), they were all good enough to regularly take points off the other WDC challengers without being a frequent enough threat for the lead driver to stop him winning the WDC.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:01 pm 
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How do you think Lewis Hamilton would do against Bottas in these 2 scenarios?

1- Both do a full pre season, clocking up 8 full race distances between them. Tweaking and developing the car over 10 days and continue with the engineers they have been working with the last couple of years.

2- Bottas drives the 2020 car for the first time at Melbourne FP1 and he has new race engineer and entire engineering team.

Do you think Bottas will do better in scenario 1 or 2 or the same?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:29 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
How do you think Lewis Hamilton would do against Bottas in these 2 scenarios?

1- Both do a full pre season, clocking up 8 full race distances between them. Tweaking and developing the car over 10 days and continue with the engineers they have been working with the last couple of years.

2- Bottas drives the 2020 car for the first time at Melbourne FP1 and he has new race engineer and entire engineering team.

Do you think Bottas will do better in scenario 1 or 2 or the same?


He would do better against Bottas in scenario 2, a fair bit better.

Just read that Albon's drive was 'phenomenal' according to Christian Horner, as he came through the pack on Sunday.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:31 pm 
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It was interesting you used Leclerc too, the same Leclerc who was 5-1 down in qualifying against Vettel and generally well beaten - bahrain aside - in there first 7-8 races of the season by Vettel.

After being 5-1 down, he then went what was it? 9 straight wins against him in qualifying... Leclerc had a pre season too. Drivers take time to get up to speed, pretty ironic that both current drivers you bring in to back up your argument has been slower initially before building up to speed. Verstappen in his fist 6-7 races in 2016 and Leclerc this year.

Verstappen found about 0.4-0.5 from his early 2016 ro 2017 pace.
Leclerc has found about 0.4 from the first 6 races to current pace too.

I am not saying Albon will find that, on average he is 0.4 behnd Verstappen and I think its fair to say its not impossible for him to half that, which would be the ideal speed to partner Verstappen.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:51 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
It was interesting you used Leclerc too, the same Leclerc who was 5-1 down in qualifying against Vettel and generally well beaten - bahrain aside - in there first 7-8 races of the season by Vettel.

After being 5-1 down, he then went what was it? 9 straight wins against him in qualifying... Leclerc had a pre season too. Drivers take time to get up to speed, pretty ironic that both current drivers you bring in to back up your argument has been slower initially before building up to speed. Verstappen in his fist 6-7 races in 2016 and Leclerc this year.

Verstappen found about 0.4-0.5 from his early 2016 ro 2017 pace.
Leclerc has found about 0.4 from the first 6 races to current pace too.

I am not saying Albon will find that, on average he is 0.4 behnd Verstappen and I think its fair to say its not impossible for him to half that, which would be the ideal speed to partner Verstappen.


Leclerc was pretty much on the pace immediately.

Albon has no excuses to be this slow and boring so far, but I do think he will keep his seat. Red Bull are keeping Kyvat and Gasly still because they are cheap and they want to cling to the idea that their junior driver programme really does work most of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:32 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
It was interesting you used Leclerc too, the same Leclerc who was 5-1 down in qualifying against Vettel and generally well beaten - bahrain aside - in there first 7-8 races of the season by Vettel.

After being 5-1 down, he then went what was it? 9 straight wins against him in qualifying... Leclerc had a pre season too. Drivers take time to get up to speed, pretty ironic that both current drivers you bring in to back up your argument has been slower initially before building up to speed. Verstappen in his fist 6-7 races in 2016 and Leclerc this year.

Verstappen found about 0.4-0.5 from his early 2016 ro 2017 pace.
Leclerc has found about 0.4 from the first 6 races to current pace too.

I am not saying Albon will find that, on average he is 0.4 behnd Verstappen and I think its fair to say its not impossible for him to half that, which would be the ideal speed to partner Verstappen.


Leclerc was pretty much on the pace immediately.

Albon has no excuses to be this slow and boring so far, but I do think he will keep his seat. Red Bull are keeping Kyvat and Gasly still because they are cheap and they want to cling to the idea that their junior driver programme really does work most of the time.


How close would you say Ericsson was to Verstappen ?

I think it would be much easier to look good against one than the other.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:33 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
It was interesting you used Leclerc too, the same Leclerc who was 5-1 down in qualifying against Vettel and generally well beaten - bahrain aside - in there first 7-8 races of the season by Vettel.

After being 5-1 down, he then went what was it? 9 straight wins against him in qualifying... Leclerc had a pre season too. Drivers take time to get up to speed, pretty ironic that both current drivers you bring in to back up your argument has been slower initially before building up to speed. Verstappen in his fist 6-7 races in 2016 and Leclerc this year.

Verstappen found about 0.4-0.5 from his early 2016 ro 2017 pace.
Leclerc has found about 0.4 from the first 6 races to current pace too.

I am not saying Albon will find that, on average he is 0.4 behnd Verstappen and I think its fair to say its not impossible for him to half that, which would be the ideal speed to partner Verstappen.


Leclerc was pretty much on the pace immediately.

Albon has no excuses to be this slow and boring so far, but I do think he will keep his seat. Red Bull are keeping Kyvat and Gasly still because they are cheap and they want to cling to the idea that their junior driver programme really does work most of the time.


How close would you say Ericsson was to Verstappen ?

I think it would be much easier to look good against one than the other.


He killed Ericsson, in some races he was way ahead of him.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:08 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
It was interesting you used Leclerc too, the same Leclerc who was 5-1 down in qualifying against Vettel and generally well beaten - bahrain aside - in there first 7-8 races of the season by Vettel.

After being 5-1 down, he then went what was it? 9 straight wins against him in qualifying... Leclerc had a pre season too. Drivers take time to get up to speed, pretty ironic that both current drivers you bring in to back up your argument has been slower initially before building up to speed. Verstappen in his fist 6-7 races in 2016 and Leclerc this year.

Verstappen found about 0.4-0.5 from his early 2016 ro 2017 pace.
Leclerc has found about 0.4 from the first 6 races to current pace too.

I am not saying Albon will find that, on average he is 0.4 behnd Verstappen and I think its fair to say its not impossible for him to half that, which would be the ideal speed to partner Verstappen.


Leclerc was pretty much on the pace immediately.

Albon has no excuses to be this slow and boring so far, but I do think he will keep his seat. Red Bull are keeping Kyvat and Gasly still because they are cheap and they want to cling to the idea that their junior driver programme really does work most of the time.


How close would you say Ericsson was to Verstappen ?

I think it would be much easier to look good against one than the other.


He killed Ericsson, in some races he was way ahead of him.


I wouldn't say so. For the main part Ericsson matched him in the first part of the season and then Leclerc pulled ahead in the second part.

At the end of the day you can't get away from the fact that 3 of the last 5 champions were well beaten by their team mates in their debut seasons. 2 of them were beaten again in their second seasons.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:37 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
It was interesting you used Leclerc too, the same Leclerc who was 5-1 down in qualifying against Vettel and generally well beaten - bahrain aside - in there first 7-8 races of the season by Vettel.

After being 5-1 down, he then went what was it? 9 straight wins against him in qualifying... Leclerc had a pre season too. Drivers take time to get up to speed, pretty ironic that both current drivers you bring in to back up your argument has been slower initially before building up to speed. Verstappen in his fist 6-7 races in 2016 and Leclerc this year.

Verstappen found about 0.4-0.5 from his early 2016 ro 2017 pace.
Leclerc has found about 0.4 from the first 6 races to current pace too.

I am not saying Albon will find that, on average he is 0.4 behnd Verstappen and I think its fair to say its not impossible for him to half that, which would be the ideal speed to partner Verstappen.


Leclerc was pretty much on the pace immediately.

Albon has no excuses to be this slow and boring so far, but I do think he will keep his seat. Red Bull are keeping Kyvat and Gasly still because they are cheap and they want to cling to the idea that their junior driver programme really does work most of the time.


How close would you say Ericsson was to Verstappen ?

I think it would be much easier to look good against one than the other.


He killed Ericsson, in some races he was way ahead of him.


I wouldn't say so. For the main part Ericsson matched him in the first part of the season and then Leclerc pulled ahead in the second part.

At the end of the day you can't get away from the fact that 3 of the last 5 champions were well beaten by their team mates in their debut seasons. 2 of them were beaten again in their second seasons.

If by "first part" you mean the first 6 races then yes but that's hardly a 50-50 split. Leclerc dominated Marcus for 2/3 of the season (Charles's first year in F1). That said, I think that expecting Albon to do to Max what Leclerc did to Ericsson just wouldn't make any sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:32 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
How close would you say Ericsson was to Verstappen ?

I think it would be much easier to look good against one than the other.


He killed Ericsson, in some races he was way ahead of him.


I wouldn't say so. For the main part Ericsson matched him in the first part of the season and then Leclerc pulled ahead in the second part.

At the end of the day you can't get away from the fact that 3 of the last 5 champions were well beaten by their team mates in their debut seasons. 2 of them were beaten again in their second seasons.

If by "first part" you mean the first 6 races then yes but that's hardly a 50-50 split. Leclerc dominated Marcus for 2/3 of the season (Charles's first year in F1). That said, I think that expecting Albon to do to Max what Leclerc did to Ericsson just wouldn't make any sense.


It makes perfect sense. Albon's current level of performance would not be anywhere close to crushing Ericsson, yet Leclerc showed that it is possible for a rookie to do this.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:05 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
How close would you say Ericsson was to Verstappen ?

I think it would be much easier to look good against one than the other.


He killed Ericsson, in some races he was way ahead of him.


I wouldn't say so. For the main part Ericsson matched him in the first part of the season and then Leclerc pulled ahead in the second part.

At the end of the day you can't get away from the fact that 3 of the last 5 champions were well beaten by their team mates in their debut seasons. 2 of them were beaten again in their second seasons.

If by "first part" you mean the first 6 races then yes but that's hardly a 50-50 split. Leclerc dominated Marcus for 2/3 of the season (Charles's first year in F1). That said, I think that expecting Albon to do to Max what Leclerc did to Ericsson just wouldn't make any sense.


It makes perfect sense. Albon's current level of performance would not be anywhere close to crushing Ericsson, yet Leclerc showed that it is possible for a rookie to do this.

What do you base that on?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:39 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
It was interesting you used Leclerc too, the same Leclerc who was 5-1 down in qualifying against Vettel and generally well beaten - bahrain aside - in there first 7-8 races of the season by Vettel.

After being 5-1 down, he then went what was it? 9 straight wins against him in qualifying... Leclerc had a pre season too. Drivers take time to get up to speed, pretty ironic that both current drivers you bring in to back up your argument has been slower initially before building up to speed. Verstappen in his fist 6-7 races in 2016 and Leclerc this year.

Verstappen found about 0.4-0.5 from his early 2016 ro 2017 pace.
Leclerc has found about 0.4 from the first 6 races to current pace too.

I am not saying Albon will find that, on average he is 0.4 behnd Verstappen and I think its fair to say its not impossible for him to half that, which would be the ideal speed to partner Verstappen.


Leclerc was pretty much on the pace immediately.

Albon has no excuses to be this slow and boring so far, but I do think he will keep his seat. Red Bull are keeping Kyvat and Gasly still because they are cheap and they want to cling to the idea that their junior driver programme really does work most of the time.

See, any shred of credibility you ever had around here is further eroded when you throw in a completely subjective and irrelevant statement like this. Why the hell do you care if Albon is boring, and why does it matter when we're talking about his ability? I think he's boring too, but I know it has FA to do with his ability as a driver.

How about you answer some of the questions posed to you by Johnson?

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 2:39 am 
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jono794 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
It was interesting you used Leclerc too, the same Leclerc who was 5-1 down in qualifying against Vettel and generally well beaten - bahrain aside - in there first 7-8 races of the season by Vettel.

After being 5-1 down, he then went what was it? 9 straight wins against him in qualifying... Leclerc had a pre season too. Drivers take time to get up to speed, pretty ironic that both current drivers you bring in to back up your argument has been slower initially before building up to speed. Verstappen in his fist 6-7 races in 2016 and Leclerc this year.

Verstappen found about 0.4-0.5 from his early 2016 ro 2017 pace.
Leclerc has found about 0.4 from the first 6 races to current pace too.

I am not saying Albon will find that, on average he is 0.4 behnd Verstappen and I think its fair to say its not impossible for him to half that, which would be the ideal speed to partner Verstappen.


Leclerc was pretty much on the pace immediately.

Albon has no excuses to be this slow and boring so far, but I do think he will keep his seat. Red Bull are keeping Kyvat and Gasly still because they are cheap and they want to cling to the idea that their junior driver programme really does work most of the time.

See, any shred of credibility you ever had around here is further eroded when you throw in a completely subjective and irrelevant statement like this. Why the hell do you care if Albon is boring, and why does it matter when we're talking about his ability? I think he's boring too, but I know it has FA to do with his ability as a driver.

How about you answer some of the questions posed to you by Johnson?


He's boring because he's slow, so Albon being boring behind the wheel is completely relevant.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:07 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Johnson wrote:
It was interesting you used Leclerc too, the same Leclerc who was 5-1 down in qualifying against Vettel and generally well beaten - bahrain aside - in there first 7-8 races of the season by Vettel.

After being 5-1 down, he then went what was it? 9 straight wins against him in qualifying... Leclerc had a pre season too. Drivers take time to get up to speed, pretty ironic that both current drivers you bring in to back up your argument has been slower initially before building up to speed. Verstappen in his fist 6-7 races in 2016 and Leclerc this year.

Verstappen found about 0.4-0.5 from his early 2016 ro 2017 pace.
Leclerc has found about 0.4 from the first 6 races to current pace too.

I am not saying Albon will find that, on average he is 0.4 behnd Verstappen and I think its fair to say its not impossible for him to half that, which would be the ideal speed to partner Verstappen.


Leclerc was pretty much on the pace immediately.

Albon has no excuses to be this slow and boring so far, but I do think he will keep his seat. Red Bull are keeping Kyvat and Gasly still because they are cheap and they want to cling to the idea that their junior driver programme really does work most of the time.


How close would you say Ericsson was to Verstappen ?

I think it would be much easier to look good against one than the other.


He killed Ericsson, in some races he was way ahead of him.


He did, after a slow start... Same pattern again. Ericsson out qualified him in the first 2 races and people began to question Leclerc early last year. Then Leclerc thrashed him all season with Ericsson only managing to out qualify him 3 times in total but it did take Leclerc all pre season and 2 race weekends to get up to speed.

Even Hamilton in famous rookie year all thousands of miles of unlimited testing took all pre season and 3-4 races to match Alonso. Alonso thrashed him in the first 2 races.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Carter spilled the beans about a lot of things, I just pass on things that I hear, in respect to Vertsappen I'm always respectful about his ability.

Never heard of an team principal Carter so it must have been back in the day he would probably not have any insider information about Verstappen, rather just speculation to get some clicks.

You actually started the whole "Verstappen has a different car" line of debate by saying " it has been said that Verstappen's teammates don't have the same car."
Then you in some other conversation use that rather vague bit of (mis?)information as something that sounds like factual evidence by saying "Well I'm guessing you missed my post that says that the Red Bull cars might not be exactly the same?"

Hence my dinosaur analogy.


He was team principle at Lotus. The Lotus that became Renault.

Personally I'd be surprised if the cars were different. The speed difference between Verstappen and Albon is pretty much what one would expect using cross driver comparisons.

I would also be a bit surprised but then again it happened recently at McLaren if you would believe Vandoorne who said his performance gap to Alonso is not as large as it appears.


One other thing he did say which caught my attention and is quite relevant to this thread was that the Verstappen camp is pushing for an experienced driver to be put alongside Max for 2020.

Yeah I've heard that but I'm not sure for what exact reason, does he need a faster wing man, Gasly was useless in this respect, Albon's better but still not really getting in the mix.

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