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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 1:41 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
It was interesting you used Leclerc too, the same Leclerc who was 5-1 down in qualifying against Vettel and generally well beaten - bahrain aside - in there first 7-8 races of the season by Vettel.

After being 5-1 down, he then went what was it? 9 straight wins against him in qualifying... Leclerc had a pre season too. Drivers take time to get up to speed, pretty ironic that both current drivers you bring in to back up your argument has been slower initially before building up to speed. Verstappen in his fist 6-7 races in 2016 and Leclerc this year.

Verstappen found about 0.4-0.5 from his early 2016 ro 2017 pace.
Leclerc has found about 0.4 from the first 6 races to current pace too.

I am not saying Albon will find that, on average he is 0.4 behnd Verstappen and I think its fair to say its not impossible for him to half that, which would be the ideal speed to partner Verstappen.

I would say that drivers normally improve with more experience at a team, Hamilton's worse season at Mercedes was in 2013.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:06 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

How close would you say Ericsson was to Verstappen ?

I think it would be much easier to look good against one than the other.


He killed Ericsson, in some races he was way ahead of him.


He did, after a slow start... Same pattern again. Ericsson out qualified him in the first 2 races and people began to question Leclerc early last year. Then Leclerc thrashed him all season with Ericsson only managing to out qualify him 3 times in total but it did take Leclerc all pre season and 2 race weekends to get up to speed.

Even Hamilton in famous rookie year all thousands of miles of unlimited testing took all pre season and 3-4 races to match Alonso. Alonso thrashed him in the first 2 races.


''All pre season'' is what, two or three tests? This period of time is nothing special as we have so many more races these days. Whereas we are 19 races into Albon's career and he hasn't done anything of note yet. Possibly matching Verstappen over one lap in Q3 in Japan is about it, although since that lap time was still far off the Ferrari's and Mercedes', (0.8 seconds off pole), perhaps it could have just been a poor lap from MV, whereas if Albon had matched Max while also having his lap time close to the other four front running drivers, then I would be a bit more convinced to count this as a highlight.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:15 pm 
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For me the Japan lap was far more than I'd have expected from albon. It's not like red Bull are spoilt for choices at the moment. I'd guess what red Bull have been pleasantly surprised by how solid and consistent albon has been for a rookie. That is the side that has definitely surprised me as like many i don't think he is really expected to reach the heights of those around him. Who knows though, if he can find the right balance of consistency and aggression and has the right work ethic then maybe he can close the gap to the elite. Be certainly strikes me as someone who is willing to put in the hard graft and not take what he has for granted. I do really hope he continues to surprise but do not argue that he has an uphill struggle in terms of out and out pace. Statements coming out of red Bull do suggest he's done enough to be in the car for next season testing though.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:33 pm 
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WHoff78 wrote:
For me the Japan lap was far more than I'd have expected from albon. It's not like red Bull are spoilt for choices at the moment. I'd guess what red Bull have been pleasantly surprised by how solid and consistent albon has been for a rookie. That is the side that has definitely surprised me as like many i don't think he is really expected to reach the heights of those around him. Who knows though, if he can find the right balance of consistency and aggression and has the right work ethic then maybe he can close the gap to the elite. Be certainly strikes me as someone who is willing to put in the hard graft and not take what he has for granted. I do really hope he continues to surprise but do not argue that he has an uphill struggle in terms of out and out pace. Statements coming out of red Bull do suggest he's done enough to be in the car for next season testing though.


For me the Japan Q3 lap looks like it really was just underperformance from MV though.

MV was 0.3 and 0.4 quicker than Albon in the two practice sessions, (practice 3 was cancelled), and Albon's fastest race lap wasn't anything special, although unfortunately Max was crashed into at the start and never got any clear laps before retiring so we couldn't see his race pace and so the picture is a bit unclear, but based on Albon's lack of speed in the other six races he has done for Red Bull, I don't think we can just automatically give him credit for Japan when it was essentially an unclear weekend where the small but inconclusive evidence tends to point towards him probably still being slow, particularly as in the race he didn't finish that far ahead of the midfield, only 10 seconds ahead of Sainz.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 7:48 pm 
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Location: Stratford
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Never heard of an team principal Carter so it must have been back in the day he would probably not have any insider information about Verstappen, rather just speculation to get some clicks.

You actually started the whole "Verstappen has a different car" line of debate by saying " it has been said that Verstappen's teammates don't have the same car."
Then you in some other conversation use that rather vague bit of (mis?)information as something that sounds like factual evidence by saying "Well I'm guessing you missed my post that says that the Red Bull cars might not be exactly the same?"

Hence my dinosaur analogy.


He was team principle at Lotus. The Lotus that became Renault.

Personally I'd be surprised if the cars were different. The speed difference between Verstappen and Albon is pretty much what one would expect using cross driver comparisons.

I would also be a bit surprised but then again it happened recently at McLaren if you would believe Vandoorne who said his performance gap to Alonso is not as large as it appears.


One other thing he did say which caught my attention and is quite relevant to this thread was that the Verstappen camp is pushing for an experienced driver to be put alongside Max for 2020.

Yeah I've heard that but I'm not sure for what exact reason, does he need a faster wing man, Gasly was useless in this respect, Albon's better but still not really getting in the mix.


Thinking back to Monza in 2018, Bottas did a useful job of holding Raikkonen up for a handful of laps which helped Hamilton out. He did the same with Vettel at Hungary. I guess the Verstappen camp don't believe Albon is capable of being quick enough for that job?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:58 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
He was team principle at Lotus. The Lotus that became Renault.

Personally I'd be surprised if the cars were different. The speed difference between Verstappen and Albon is pretty much what one would expect using cross driver comparisons.

I would also be a bit surprised but then again it happened recently at McLaren if you would believe Vandoorne who said his performance gap to Alonso is not as large as it appears.


One other thing he did say which caught my attention and is quite relevant to this thread was that the Verstappen camp is pushing for an experienced driver to be put alongside Max for 2020.

Yeah I've heard that but I'm not sure for what exact reason, does he need a faster wing man, Gasly was useless in this respect, Albon's better but still not really getting in the mix.


Thinking back to Monza in 2018, Bottas did a useful job of holding Raikkonen up for a handful of laps which helped Hamilton out. He did the same with Vettel at Hungary. I guess the Verstappen camp don't believe Albon is capable of being quick enough for that job?

Maybe but I think it's too early to have a definitive opinion about Albon.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:09 am 
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pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

One other thing he did say which caught my attention and is quite relevant to this thread was that the Verstappen camp is pushing for an experienced driver to be put alongside Max for 2020.

Yeah I've heard that but I'm not sure for what exact reason, does he need a faster wing man, Gasly was useless in this respect, Albon's better but still not really getting in the mix.


Thinking back to Monza in 2018, Bottas did a useful job of holding Raikkonen up for a handful of laps which helped Hamilton out. He did the same with Vettel at Hungary. I guess the Verstappen camp don't believe Albon is capable of being quick enough for that job?

Maybe but I think it's too early to have a definitive opinion about Albon.


When does Albon need to show pace by for you? How many more races?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 12:21 am 
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Posts: 33073
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
JN23 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

One other thing he did say which caught my attention and is quite relevant to this thread was that the Verstappen camp is pushing for an experienced driver to be put alongside Max for 2020.

Yeah I've heard that but I'm not sure for what exact reason, does he need a faster wing man, Gasly was useless in this respect, Albon's better but still not really getting in the mix.


Thinking back to Monza in 2018, Bottas did a useful job of holding Raikkonen up for a handful of laps which helped Hamilton out. He did the same with Vettel at Hungary. I guess the Verstappen camp don't believe Albon is capable of being quick enough for that job?

Maybe but I think it's too early to have a definitive opinion about Albon.


When does Albon need to show pace by for you? How many more races?

I give any driver 2 seasons to prove themselves, the likes of Button and Rosberg would never have been world champions under this kind of prove yourself immediately scrutiny.

Like I say it's too soon to know the actual level of Albon.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2019 11:20 am 
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The reason Bottas was able to do that hold up job at Monza 2018 was because he was slow that weekend. He was 10 seconds off the lead on lap 21 when Kimi pitted.

The number two needs to be quick but not too quick. Well actually if they are quick they can be used to undercut rivals and force them into pitting but if they are that quick they will beat the number 1 quite a lot of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 10:56 am 
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Posts: 1521
Location: UK
Obviously Gasly has done enough to secure his place, he has been confirmed as Red Bull's second driver.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:38 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Obviously Gasly has done enough to secure his place, he has been confirmed as Red Bull's second driver.

You mean Albon? :?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:43 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2014 9:50 am
Posts: 1521
Location: UK
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Obviously Gasly has done enough to secure his place, he has been confirmed as Red Bull's second driver.

You mean Albon? :?


Oops, ALBON sorry to confuse the issue, thank you Mr P


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