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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:57 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
An interesting decision for Red Bull to have taken. I'm wondering what their thought process was. Surely if it was simply that they wanted the "other" car to be taking the maximum points possible, Kvyat would have been more reliable - based on this years form at least. If that WASN'T the main criteria though, putting Albon in the Red Bull means risking another high-profile failure and makes a bit of a joke out of their driver program. More like a carousel than a ladder. Shouldn't the traillingand devlopment of the drivers be done BEFORE they get to F1? Isn't that kind of the point?

At least Albon isn't putting the driver they fired twice back into the main team...


Well Red Bull have dropped Albon once already!

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:31 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
An interesting decision for Red Bull to have taken. I'm wondering what their thought process was. Surely if it was simply that they wanted the "other" car to be taking the maximum points possible, Kvyat would have been more reliable - based on this years form at least. If that WASN'T the main criteria though, putting Albon in the Red Bull means risking another high-profile failure and makes a bit of a joke out of their driver program. More like a carousel than a ladder. Shouldn't the traillingand devlopment of the drivers be done BEFORE they get to F1? Isn't that kind of the point?

At least Albon isn't putting the driver they fired twice back into the main team...


Well Red Bull have dropped Albon once already!

Ah, well I guess the only explanation is that Kyvat must have told Horner that Victoria Beckham is his favourite Spice Girl.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:53 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:
Also looking at their current junior programme, nobody is anywhere near the step up. Juri Vips is currently in F3 and second in the standings, but should he progress we're looking at 2021/22 at the earliest.

Red Bull don't have much to fall back on, hence the Kvyat recall for this season.

No Juri Vips can make the step up for 2020 if he finishes top 3 in F3.


Who else is in the junior program? They dropped Ticktum, right?

https://www.motorsport.com/super-formul ... m/4483618/

Never liked the guy after his SC incident at Silverstone.

In terms of other hopefuls, they currently have:

Jack Doohan - Euroformula Open Championship/F3 Asian Championship
Dennis Hauger - ADAC Formula 4/Italian F4 Championship
Jonny Edgar - ADAC Formula 4/F4 Spanish Championship/Italian F4 Championship
Harry Thompson - Karting
Patricio O'Ward - IndyCar Series/FIA Formula 2 Championship/Super Formula Championship
Lucas Auer - Super Formula Championship
Liam Lawson - FIA Formula 3 Championship/Euroformula Open Championship
Yuki Tsunoda - FIA Formula 3 Championship/Euroformula Open Championship

Slim pickings if you ask me.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:45 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
12 days ago.

https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/marko-gasly-red-bull-kvyat/4503927/

The guys nothing but an evil cretin.


I don't see how that's any different than how most management works. The soccer coach has the full confidence of the board until suddenly the day after he's fired, etc. It's a way to shield the internal discussions rather than to air them.

Would it have been better for Gasly that he openly said "yes, we're seriously considering replacing him" if they didn't end up replacing him?


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:54 am 
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Lord Crc wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
12 days ago.

https://au.motorsport.com/f1/news/marko-gasly-red-bull-kvyat/4503927/

The guys nothing but an evil cretin.


I don't see how that's any different than how most management works. The soccer coach has the full confidence of the board until suddenly the day after he's fired, etc. It's a way to shield the internal discussions rather than to air them.

Would it have been better for Gasly that he openly said "yes, we're seriously considering replacing him" if they didn't end up replacing him?


Hence my retraction of that statement 3 posts later.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 9:05 am 
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Posts: 2214
MistaVega23 wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:
Also looking at their current junior programme, nobody is anywhere near the step up. Juri Vips is currently in F3 and second in the standings, but should he progress we're looking at 2021/22 at the earliest.

Red Bull don't have much to fall back on, hence the Kvyat recall for this season.

No Juri Vips can make the step up for 2020 if he finishes top 3 in F3.


Who else is in the junior program? They dropped Ticktum, right?

https://www.motorsport.com/super-formul ... m/4483618/

Never liked the guy after his SC incident at Silverstone.

In terms of other hopefuls, they currently have:

Jack Doohan - Euroformula Open Championship/F3 Asian Championship
Dennis Hauger - ADAC Formula 4/Italian F4 Championship
Jonny Edgar - ADAC Formula 4/F4 Spanish Championship/Italian F4 Championship
Harry Thompson - Karting
Patricio O'Ward - IndyCar Series/FIA Formula 2 Championship/Super Formula Championship
Lucas Auer - Super Formula Championship
Liam Lawson - FIA Formula 3 Championship/Euroformula Open Championship
Yuki Tsunoda - FIA Formula 3 Championship/Euroformula Open Championship

Slim pickings if you ask me.


Well, given the driving talent that Ticktum has demonstrated, I doubt that three bad races led to RB dropping him. I guess there must have been something happened behind the curtains, maybe an attitude thing.

Has O'Ward shown anything worthy of F1?

That would leave Auer ...

Apart from Vips, it's really looking thin...


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:36 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Hence my retraction of that statement 3 posts later.


Wups, missed it. I agree tho it looks stupid, but yeah, alternative is worse.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:54 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Has O'Ward shown anything worthy of F1?


He did an F2 weekend at the Austrian GP round this year, but nothing exciting in terms of results, although he did qualify only two tenths off Jordan King.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 6:14 pm 
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Behind Verstappen - all the RB and TR drivers are just the 'bum of the month'.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:17 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MistaVega23 wrote:
Also looking at their current junior programme, nobody is anywhere near the step up. Juri Vips is currently in F3 and second in the standings, but should he progress we're looking at 2021/22 at the earliest.

Red Bull don't have much to fall back on, hence the Kvyat recall for this season.

No Juri Vips can make the step up for 2020 if he finishes top 3 in F3.


Who else is in the junior program? They dropped Ticktum, right?

They dropped him for Pato O'Ward but he has no chance of getting the necessary super license points for 2020.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:22 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
You can't really argue with the decision to drop Gasly. He's been so far off the pace for 12 races, that likely wasn't going to change in the last 9 races, never mind changing to an extent whereby he got kept at Red Bull for next year.

I am delighted for Albon as he seems like a really nice guy and I've been quite impressed with him so far this season.

My concern is that this is too soon for him and will wreck his development. Going up against someone who many rate as the fastest on the grid right now could be too much for someone so new. In addition, having to get used to a new car mid-season will be a big challenge. I really hope I'm wrong and it doesn't wreck his development as I believe he could become a solid midfielder driver for years at the least. From an Albon point of view, I hoped they would have left it until the end of the season.

Imagine the scenes if he wins at Spa :D

A nice video from 2010:


That looks like the PFI kart track, I use to race there. :)

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:59 pm 
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It's scary how many posts I am reading in this thread about this being a bad decision/outcome for Albon and that it could screw up his career and his development etc.. I was going to quote a few posts and then I kept reading the same silly idea over and over from many different posters that there was just no point me trying to quote them all.

Ok, here we go:

Did Michael Schumacher have his career destroyed by his early promotion to the Benetton team after just one race with Jordan? Did Flavio Briatore make an over-eager mistake and sign him prematurely?

Did Lewis Hamilton have his career destroyed by immediately being put into front-running equipment with a team mate that would likely destroy him, reigning double World Champion Fernando Alonso no less?

Did Sebastian Vettel have his career destroyed by his early promotion from STR to Red Bull?

Did Kimi Raikkonen have his career destroyed after his early promotion from Sauber to McLaren?

Did Max Verstappen have his career destroyed by his early promotion from STR to Red Bull? Why was his father Jos pushing for Max to be promoted to Red Bull so early? Why wasn't he asking for his son to be given many years at STR so that he could 'develop' his talent first?

Driver's don't really develop talent in this way, most of the elite's talent is natural talent and that is innate within them, they hone it slightly with experience of course but they don't just learn or discover a tonne of pace one day several years into their F1 career so long as they are in a middling team when the discovery is made.

So on the contrary to what a lot of people in this thread are alluding to, this is a brilliant opportunity for Albon; if he is super quick then no one will be saying that this opportunity was made too soon, (just like no one says this about MV or LH for instance), and if he is slow like Gasly then hey, at least he had his chance, some like Jean-Eric Vergne etc. don't always get the opportunity if there aren't enough spaces in the main Red Bull team at the time. Now I personally doubt Albon will be good enough, he seems as slow as Kyvat so far, (again I highly doubt that Kyvat has discovered a tonne of pace from somewhere since he got dropped from Red Bull, therefore if Albon is only matching Kyvat's average-at-best pace, it doesn't bode well for him). However even if Albon isn't good enough, then it is still a positive to find this information out with certainty as soon as possible rather than having him waste an STR seat for years and blocking other potential talent coming through. So this is a good move all-round really.

So yeah, please spare me all the comments about this being a bad decison to give Albon front-running equipment so soon. If he is good enough he will swim, if he isn't then he will sink. Only time will tell but at least we will know soon how good he really is.

In addition, I bet Albon accepted this opportunity immediately when the idea was proposed to him. He would have snapped Christian Horner's hand off.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:01 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
An interesting decision for Red Bull to have taken. I'm wondering what their thought process was. Surely if it was simply that they wanted the "other" car to be taking the maximum points possible, Kvyat would have been more reliable - based on this years form at least. If that WASN'T the main criteria though, putting Albon in the Red Bull means risking another high-profile failure and makes a bit of a joke out of their driver program. More like a carousel than a ladder. Shouldn't the traillingand devlopment of the drivers be done BEFORE they get to F1? Isn't that kind of the point?

At least Albon isn't putting the driver they fired twice back into the main team, it's only a 'risk' that he'll make a joke on it. Kvyat going back in there would put egg on their faces, even though I personally think he wasn't too shabby at Red Bull and they made a mountain out of his molehills of errors because they wanted to get Max in the main team.

It will be curious to see how Gasly compares to Kyvat - I'm not sure Albon is ready to go head to head with Max, but maybe they are worried Kyvat would be too close to him.

This news basically confirms that Bottas definitely isn't going to Red Bull next season though.

Agreed.

I'm still not so sure Mercedes will drop Bottas though. I'd like to see Ocon in the 2nd Merc up against Lewis, which would likely lead to haas snapping up Bottas to replace one of their drivers. However, if Red Bull is smart, they'll do the smart thing and sign Bottas or Ocon instead of putting an unprepared youngster from their program simply to prove they know how to develop their young talent. Wouldn't it be something to see Ocon in the other Red Bull??!?!?

Marko and Horner haven't got the gonads to make such a decision, so that'll never happen, but that could very well lead to a WCC, which is what the sport is really about.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:31 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
It's scary how many posts I am reading in this thread about this being a bad decision/outcome for Albon and that it could screw up his career and his development etc.. I was going to quote a few posts and then I kept reading the same silly idea over and over from many different posters that there was just no point me trying to quote them all.

Ok, here we go:

Did Michael Schumacher have his career destroyed by his early promotion to the Benetton team after just one race with Jordan? Did Flavio Briatore make an over-eager mistake and sign him prematurely?

Did Lewis Hamilton have his career destroyed by immediately being put into front-running equipment with a team mate that would likely destroy him, reigning double World Champion Fernando Alonso no less?

Did Sebastian Vettel have his career destroyed by his early promotion from STR to Red Bull?

Did Kimi Raikkonen have his career destroyed after his early promotion from Sauber to McLaren?

Did Max Verstappen have his career destroyed by his early promotion from STR to Red Bull? Why was his father Jos pushing for Max to be promoted to Red Bull so early? Why wasn't he asking for his son to be given many years at STR so that he could 'develop' his talent first?

Driver's don't really develop talent in this way, most of the elite's talent is natural talent and that is innate within them, they hone it slightly with experience of course but they don't just learn or discover a tonne of pace one day several years into their F1 career so long as they are in a middling team when the discovery is made.

So on the contrary to what a lot of people in this thread are alluding to, this is a brilliant opportunity for Albon; if he is super quick then no one will be saying that this opportunity was made too soon, (just like no one says this about MV or LH for instance), and if he is slow like Gasly then hey, at least he had his chance, some like Jean-Eric Vergne etc. don't always get the opportunity if there aren't enough spaces in the main Red Bull team at the time. Now I personally doubt Albon will be good enough, he seems as slow as Kyvat so far, (again I highly doubt that Kyvat has discovered a tonne of pace from somewhere since he got dropped from Red Bull, therefore if Albon is only matching Kyvat's average-at-best pace, it doesn't bode well for him). However even if Albon isn't good enough, then it is still a positive to find this information out with certainty as soon as possible rather than having him waste an STR seat for years and blocking other potential talent coming through. So this is a good move all-round really.

So yeah, please spare me all the comments about this being a bad decison to give Albon front-running equipment so soon. If he is good enough he will swim, if he isn't then he will sink. Only time will tell but at least we will know soon how good he really is.

In addition, I bet Albon accepted this opportunity immediately when the idea was proposed to him. He would have snapped Christian Horner's hand off.

I'm not quite sure your comparisons sticks. Kimi had a full year in Sauber before being promoted. Vettel had half a year in BMW and two years in STR, including a win. Max had also 2 years in STR before being promoted.

Albon has hardly gone through half a season. And he's no Hamilton nor Schumacher.

Having said that, I think it is a good decision to use Albon, they have nothing to lose. Use him for the latter part of the season, if he doesn't perform then Kvyat can come next season, if he does, then even better. The only thing to consider is the WCC standings, they are closing to Ferrari, so bringing in points will be key. On the other hand, they are no threatened by any other team.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:49 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
It's scary how many posts I am reading in this thread about this being a bad decision/outcome for Albon and that it could screw up his career and his development etc.. I was going to quote a few posts and then I kept reading the same silly idea over and over from many different posters that there was just no point me trying to quote them all.

Ok, here we go:

Did Michael Schumacher have his career destroyed by his early promotion to the Benetton team after just one race with Jordan? Did Flavio Briatore make an over-eager mistake and sign him prematurely?

Did Lewis Hamilton have his career destroyed by immediately being put into front-running equipment with a team mate that would likely destroy him, reigning double World Champion Fernando Alonso no less?

Did Sebastian Vettel have his career destroyed by his early promotion from STR to Red Bull?

Did Kimi Raikkonen have his career destroyed after his early promotion from Sauber to McLaren?

Did Max Verstappen have his career destroyed by his early promotion from STR to Red Bull? Why was his father Jos pushing for Max to be promoted to Red Bull so early? Why wasn't he asking for his son to be given many years at STR so that he could 'develop' his talent first?

Driver's don't really develop talent in this way, most of the elite's talent is natural talent and that is innate within them, they hone it slightly with experience of course but they don't just learn or discover a tonne of pace one day several years into their F1 career so long as they are in a middling team when the discovery is made.

So on the contrary to what a lot of people in this thread are alluding to, this is a brilliant opportunity for Albon; if he is super quick then no one will be saying that this opportunity was made too soon, (just like no one says this about MV or LH for instance), and if he is slow like Gasly then hey, at least he had his chance, some like Jean-Eric Vergne etc. don't always get the opportunity if there aren't enough spaces in the main Red Bull team at the time. Now I personally doubt Albon will be good enough, he seems as slow as Kyvat so far, (again I highly doubt that Kyvat has discovered a tonne of pace from somewhere since he got dropped from Red Bull, therefore if Albon is only matching Kyvat's average-at-best pace, it doesn't bode well for him). However even if Albon isn't good enough, then it is still a positive to find this information out with certainty as soon as possible rather than having him waste an STR seat for years and blocking other potential talent coming through. So this is a good move all-round really.

So yeah, please spare me all the comments about this being a bad decison to give Albon front-running equipment so soon. If he is good enough he will swim, if he isn't then he will sink. Only time will tell but at least we will know soon how good he really is.

In addition, I bet Albon accepted this opportunity immediately when the idea was proposed to him. He would have snapped Christian Horner's hand off.

I'm not quite sure your comparisons sticks. Kimi had a full year in Sauber before being promoted. Vettel had half a year in BMW and two years in STR, including a win. Max had also 2 years in STR before being promoted.

Albon has hardly gone through half a season. And he's no Hamilton nor Schumacher.

Having said that, I think it is a good decision to use Albon, they have nothing to lose. Use him for the latter part of the season, if he doesn't perform then Kvyat can come next season, if he does, then even better. The only thing to consider is the WCC standings, they are closing to Ferrari, so bringing in points will be key. On the other hand, they are no threatened by any other team.


Vettel had 1 race for BMW and then less than a season and a half at STR before promotion. Verstappen had a year and 4 races at STR.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:57 am 
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Thank you for the corrections, memory fades sometimes. The point is that they had more than 9 races, they had completed full years.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:27 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Thank you for the corrections, memory fades sometimes. The point is that they had more than 9 races, they had completed full years.

It's kind of a bit crazy, I remember Vettel saying that it took him 12 months before he started to get comfortable with the cars in F1.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Thank you for the corrections, memory fades sometimes. The point is that they had more than 9 races, they had completed full years.

It's kind of a bit crazy, I remember Vettel saying that it took him 12 months before he started to get comfortable with the cars in F1.


They always say things like that to big themselves up.

That comment came from a guy who finished in the points in his first grand prix with very little preparation time.

Not only that but he could also have meant that after two weeks he was 90% comfortable with the car, and then after fifty two weeks he got to being 100% comfortable with the car. It doesn't necessarily mean that after say fourty five weeks in the car he was only 30% comfortable with the car and then after fifty two weeks he got to being 100% comfortable with the car.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:36 pm 
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Posts: 344
Siao7 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
It's scary how many posts I am reading in this thread about this being a bad decision/outcome for Albon and that it could screw up his career and his development etc.. I was going to quote a few posts and then I kept reading the same silly idea over and over from many different posters that there was just no point me trying to quote them all.

Ok, here we go:

Did Michael Schumacher have his career destroyed by his early promotion to the Benetton team after just one race with Jordan? Did Flavio Briatore make an over-eager mistake and sign him prematurely?

Did Lewis Hamilton have his career destroyed by immediately being put into front-running equipment with a team mate that would likely destroy him, reigning double World Champion Fernando Alonso no less?

Did Sebastian Vettel have his career destroyed by his early promotion from STR to Red Bull?

Did Kimi Raikkonen have his career destroyed after his early promotion from Sauber to McLaren?

Did Max Verstappen have his career destroyed by his early promotion from STR to Red Bull? Why was his father Jos pushing for Max to be promoted to Red Bull so early? Why wasn't he asking for his son to be given many years at STR so that he could 'develop' his talent first?

Driver's don't really develop talent in this way, most of the elite's talent is natural talent and that is innate within them, they hone it slightly with experience of course but they don't just learn or discover a tonne of pace one day several years into their F1 career so long as they are in a middling team when the discovery is made.

So on the contrary to what a lot of people in this thread are alluding to, this is a brilliant opportunity for Albon; if he is super quick then no one will be saying that this opportunity was made too soon, (just like no one says this about MV or LH for instance), and if he is slow like Gasly then hey, at least he had his chance, some like Jean-Eric Vergne etc. don't always get the opportunity if there aren't enough spaces in the main Red Bull team at the time. Now I personally doubt Albon will be good enough, he seems as slow as Kyvat so far, (again I highly doubt that Kyvat has discovered a tonne of pace from somewhere since he got dropped from Red Bull, therefore if Albon is only matching Kyvat's average-at-best pace, it doesn't bode well for him). However even if Albon isn't good enough, then it is still a positive to find this information out with certainty as soon as possible rather than having him waste an STR seat for years and blocking other potential talent coming through. So this is a good move all-round really.

So yeah, please spare me all the comments about this being a bad decison to give Albon front-running equipment so soon. If he is good enough he will swim, if he isn't then he will sink. Only time will tell but at least we will know soon how good he really is.

In addition, I bet Albon accepted this opportunity immediately when the idea was proposed to him. He would have snapped Christian Horner's hand off.

I'm not quite sure your comparisons sticks. Kimi had a full year in Sauber before being promoted. Vettel had half a year in BMW and two years in STR, including a win. Max had also 2 years in STR before being promoted.

Albon has hardly gone through half a season. And he's no Hamilton nor Schumacher.

Having said that, I think it is a good decision to use Albon, they have nothing to lose. Use him for the latter part of the season, if he doesn't perform then Kvyat can come next season, if he does, then even better. The only thing to consider is the WCC standings, they are closing to Ferrari, so bringing in points will be key. On the other hand, they are no threatened by any other team.


The comparison sticks, plus Kimi had 17 races at Sauber and Albon has had 12 races at STR; I highly doubt those 5 extra races make a huge difference. If Albon is top tier, second tier or even third tier, he will find a way within himself to make this move to Red Bull work. If he is only tier four or below, then I'm sorry, but the sooner he leaves the sport the better and this move to Red Bull will only help expedite that process, so it is a positive move either way.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 3:46 pm 
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Posts: 32145
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Thank you for the corrections, memory fades sometimes. The point is that they had more than 9 races, they had completed full years.

It's kind of a bit crazy, I remember Vettel saying that it took him 12 months before he started to get comfortable with the cars in F1.


They always say things like that to big themselves up.

That comment came from a guy who finished in the points in his first grand prix with very little preparation time.

Not only that but he could also have meant that after two weeks he was 90% comfortable with the car, and then after fifty two weeks he got to being 100% comfortable with the car. It doesn't necessarily mean that after say fourty five weeks in the car he was only 30% comfortable with the car and then after fifty two weeks he got to being 100% comfortable with the car.

You see that as a dig against Vettel?

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 4:00 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
It's scary how many posts I am reading in this thread about this being a bad decision/outcome for Albon and that it could screw up his career and his development etc.. I was going to quote a few posts and then I kept reading the same silly idea over and over from many different posters that there was just no point me trying to quote them all.

Ok, here we go:

Did Michael Schumacher have his career destroyed by his early promotion to the Benetton team after just one race with Jordan? Did Flavio Briatore make an over-eager mistake and sign him prematurely?

Did Lewis Hamilton have his career destroyed by immediately being put into front-running equipment with a team mate that would likely destroy him, reigning double World Champion Fernando Alonso no less?

Did Sebastian Vettel have his career destroyed by his early promotion from STR to Red Bull?

Did Kimi Raikkonen have his career destroyed after his early promotion from Sauber to McLaren?

Did Max Verstappen have his career destroyed by his early promotion from STR to Red Bull? Why was his father Jos pushing for Max to be promoted to Red Bull so early? Why wasn't he asking for his son to be given many years at STR so that he could 'develop' his talent first?

Driver's don't really develop talent in this way, most of the elite's talent is natural talent and that is innate within them, they hone it slightly with experience of course but they don't just learn or discover a tonne of pace one day several years into their F1 career so long as they are in a middling team when the discovery is made.

So on the contrary to what a lot of people in this thread are alluding to, this is a brilliant opportunity for Albon; if he is super quick then no one will be saying that this opportunity was made too soon, (just like no one says this about MV or LH for instance), and if he is slow like Gasly then hey, at least he had his chance, some like Jean-Eric Vergne etc. don't always get the opportunity if there aren't enough spaces in the main Red Bull team at the time. Now I personally doubt Albon will be good enough, he seems as slow as Kyvat so far, (again I highly doubt that Kyvat has discovered a tonne of pace from somewhere since he got dropped from Red Bull, therefore if Albon is only matching Kyvat's average-at-best pace, it doesn't bode well for him). However even if Albon isn't good enough, then it is still a positive to find this information out with certainty as soon as possible rather than having him waste an STR seat for years and blocking other potential talent coming through. So this is a good move all-round really.

So yeah, please spare me all the comments about this being a bad decison to give Albon front-running equipment so soon. If he is good enough he will swim, if he isn't then he will sink. Only time will tell but at least we will know soon how good he really is.

In addition, I bet Albon accepted this opportunity immediately when the idea was proposed to him. He would have snapped Christian Horner's hand off.

I'm not quite sure your comparisons sticks. Kimi had a full year in Sauber before being promoted. Vettel had half a year in BMW and two years in STR, including a win. Max had also 2 years in STR before being promoted.

Albon has hardly gone through half a season. And he's no Hamilton nor Schumacher.

Having said that, I think it is a good decision to use Albon, they have nothing to lose. Use him for the latter part of the season, if he doesn't perform then Kvyat can come next season, if he does, then even better. The only thing to consider is the WCC standings, they are closing to Ferrari, so bringing in points will be key. On the other hand, they are no threatened by any other team.


The comparison sticks, plus Kimi had 17 races at Sauber and Albon has had 12 races at STR; I highly doubt those 5 extra races make a huge difference. If Albon is top tier, second tier or even third tier, he will find a way within himself to make this move to Red Bull work. If he is only tier four or below, then I'm sorry, but the sooner he leaves the sport the better and this move to Red Bull will only help expedite that process, so it is a positive move either way.


You are right about the amount of races, but the difference is that Kimi went against DC, not Max. And got beaten. The drivers you mentioned (apart from Max) were on teams that are loyal to drivers, they don't chuck them from the team on a whim. So Albon has this extra baggage. I really do want to see how he measures up, it will also reflect on Max.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Thank you for the corrections, memory fades sometimes. The point is that they had more than 9 races, they had completed full years.

It's kind of a bit crazy, I remember Vettel saying that it took him 12 months before he started to get comfortable with the cars in F1.


They always say things like that to big themselves up.

That comment came from a guy who finished in the points in his first grand prix with very little preparation time.

Not only that but he could also have meant that after two weeks he was 90% comfortable with the car, and then after fifty two weeks he got to being 100% comfortable with the car. It doesn't necessarily mean that after say fourty five weeks in the car he was only 30% comfortable with the car and then after fifty two weeks he got to being 100% comfortable with the car.

You see that as a dig against Vettel?


In what way? I am merely saying that Vettel's comment was likely a generic throwaway one that we hear from drivers a lot of the time and that we shouldn't really read too much into it. His results proved otherwise and I prefer to look at those over his random comments. It's the same as in one of the other threads a few months back where people were debating over and over about Mercedes sandbagging comments and them doubting their preseason pace and that they would be in for a tough challenge from Ferrari etc. only to turn up in Australia and wipe the floor with them. A lot of interview comments from teams and drivers should be taken with a pinch of salt.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:20 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

The comparison sticks, plus Kimi had 17 races at Sauber and Albon has had 12 races at STR; I highly doubt those 5 extra races make a huge difference. If Albon is top tier, second tier or even third tier, he will find a way within himself to make this move to Red Bull work. If he is only tier four or below, then I'm sorry, but the sooner he leaves the sport the better and this move to Red Bull will only help expedite that process, so it is a positive move either way.


You are right about the amount of races, but the difference is that Kimi went against DC, not Max. And got beaten. The drivers you mentioned (apart from Max) were on teams that are loyal to drivers, they don't chuck them from the team on a whim. So Albon has this extra baggage. I really do want to see how he measures up, it will also reflect on Max.


McLaren ditched Michael Andretti mid-season in 1993 for similarly poor performances as Gasly, and also Mansell was dumped after he did only two races in 1995. They also got rid of Montoya halfway through 2006. Ron Denis was calling the shots throughout this whole period so the examples are relevant.

Benetton ditched Moreno for Schumacher in 1991, then got rid of Lehto and Jos Verstappen for Herbert in 1994. Again Flavio Briatore was in charge during this whole period.

So all teams ditch bad drivers, this is nothing specific to Red Bull. The only reason why more instances occur with Red Bull compared to other teams is that they bring more young talent through than the other teams that tend to rely on more established and experienced talent. Red Bull take more gambles and so have to 'correct' some of the bad gambles that didn't work, that is all that is going on here.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:03 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

The comparison sticks, plus Kimi had 17 races at Sauber and Albon has had 12 races at STR; I highly doubt those 5 extra races make a huge difference. If Albon is top tier, second tier or even third tier, he will find a way within himself to make this move to Red Bull work. If he is only tier four or below, then I'm sorry, but the sooner he leaves the sport the better and this move to Red Bull will only help expedite that process, so it is a positive move either way.


You are right about the amount of races, but the difference is that Kimi went against DC, not Max. And got beaten. The drivers you mentioned (apart from Max) were on teams that are loyal to drivers, they don't chuck them from the team on a whim. So Albon has this extra baggage. I really do want to see how he measures up, it will also reflect on Max.


McLaren ditched Michael Andretti mid-season in 1993 for similarly poor performances as Gasly, and also Mansell was dumped after he did only two races in 1995. They also got rid of Montoya halfway through 2006. Ron Denis was calling the shots throughout this whole period so the examples are relevant.

Benetton ditched Moreno for Schumacher in 1991, then got rid of Lehto and Jos Verstappen for Herbert in 1994. Again Flavio Briatore was in charge during this whole period.

So all teams ditch bad drivers, this is nothing specific to Red Bull. The only reason why more instances occur with Red Bull compared to other teams is that they bring more young talent through than the other teams that tend to rely on more established and experienced talent. Red Bull take more gambles and so have to 'correct' some of the bad gambles that didn't work, that is all that is going on here.


Oh come on, the Andretti story has been done to death, he ended up being an expensive luxury that crashed in the first races (didn't he famously only complete 3 laps in 3 races or something?) and then finished a lap behind Senna in every other race they both finished; they had Hakkinen lined up for peanuts on top of that. And Mansell? He chose to retire if memory serves right, he wasn't chucked. Montoya had bad blood brewing over that period in 2006, to the point that Dennis denied him to go to race to the States, only to then offer him to do that if he broke his contract with Macca and didn't receive his money.

And Moreno was controversially dropped, but he was a substitute driver all his life that didn't bring much money and he was for the next best thing. Lehto was gone as he was injured for the beginning of the season and upon his return he was terrible. They brought Jos as a replacement driver, he was never going to be a full driver. They got a chance to sign Herbert and they did.

I did not say that teams are always loyal to their drivers and they never get fired, just that RB has made it a point to just chuck them out seemingly easier than anyone else.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:34 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Thank you for the corrections, memory fades sometimes. The point is that they had more than 9 races, they had completed full years.

It's kind of a bit crazy, I remember Vettel saying that it took him 12 months before he started to get comfortable with the cars in F1.


They always say things like that to big themselves up.

That comment came from a guy who finished in the points in his first grand prix with very little preparation time.

Not only that but he could also have meant that after two weeks he was 90% comfortable with the car, and then after fifty two weeks he got to being 100% comfortable with the car. It doesn't necessarily mean that after say fourty five weeks in the car he was only 30% comfortable with the car and then after fifty two weeks he got to being 100% comfortable with the car.

You see that as a dig against Vettel?


In what way? I am merely saying that Vettel's comment was likely a generic throwaway one that we hear from drivers a lot of the time and that we shouldn't really read too much into it. His results proved otherwise and I prefer to look at those over his random comments. It's the same as in one of the other threads a few months back where people were debating over and over about Mercedes sandbagging comments and them doubting their preseason pace and that they would be in for a tough challenge from Ferrari etc. only to turn up in Australia and wipe the floor with them. A lot of interview comments from teams and drivers should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I used Vettel purely as an example of how it takes drivers time to get up to full speed in F1, I could have used another driver like Montoya who also mentioned it took him some time, what they have in common is they both made reference to the fact.

Strange you didn't like the post, also strange with the post about Mercedes that totally went off on a tangent. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:41 pm 
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Almost all drivers take time and get better after a few years. Hamilton is a massive exception in being good straight away.

Vettel clearly improved steadily from 2007-2011
Kimi went from slower the Heidfeld in 2001 to possibly the fastest guy in F1 in 2003
Button's improvement was clear from 2000 through to 2004.

ETC ETC ETC.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
They always say things like that to big themselves up.

That comment came from a guy who finished in the points in his first grand prix with very little preparation time.

Not only that but he could also have meant that after two weeks he was 90% comfortable with the car, and then after fifty two weeks he got to being 100% comfortable with the car. It doesn't necessarily mean that after say fourty five weeks in the car he was only 30% comfortable with the car and then after fifty two weeks he got to being 100% comfortable with the car.

You see that as a dig against Vettel?


In what way? I am merely saying that Vettel's comment was likely a generic throwaway one that we hear from drivers a lot of the time and that we shouldn't really read too much into it. His results proved otherwise and I prefer to look at those over his random comments. It's the same as in one of the other threads a few months back where people were debating over and over about Mercedes sandbagging comments and them doubting their preseason pace and that they would be in for a tough challenge from Ferrari etc. only to turn up in Australia and wipe the floor with them. A lot of interview comments from teams and drivers should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I used Vettel purely as an example of how it takes drivers time to get up to full speed in F1, I could have used another driver like Montoya who also mentioned it took him some time, what they have in common is they both made reference to the fact.

Strange you didn't like the post, also strange with the post about Mercedes that totally went off on a tangent. :?


Montoya was quick immediately and should have won in Brazil 2001, (his third race I believe), but he got punted off the track by a backmarker. He also won in his first season and was robbed of at least one other win due to mechanical failure in Germany. So again Montoya's results, or (potential results in the case of Brazil and Germany), contradict his comment about taking time to get up to speed.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:31 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Almost all drivers take time and get better after a few years. Hamilton is a massive exception in being good straight away.

Vettel clearly improved steadily from 2007-2011
Kimi went from slower the Heidfeld in 2001 to possibly the fastest guy in F1 in 2003
Button's improvement was clear from 2000 through to 2004.

ETC ETC ETC.


Of course they do, but they don't get a lot faster, they get slightly faster. Vettel's cars improved steadily from 2007-2011, as did Kimi's and Button's. It's interesting how Webber's results also improved steadily from 2007-2011 too, even though he was a lot older than Vettel and getting into the twilight of his career at this point. Do not underestimate the car effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:34 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Almost all drivers take time and get better after a few years. Hamilton is a massive exception in being good straight away.

Vettel clearly improved steadily from 2007-2011
Kimi went from slower the Heidfeld in 2001 to possibly the fastest guy in F1 in 2003
Button's improvement was clear from 2000 through to 2004.

ETC ETC ETC.


Of course they do, but they don't get a lot faster, they get slightly faster. Vettel's cars improved steadily from 2007-2011, as did Kimi's and Button's.


And the speed also did it can easily be seen. Kimi was a much faster driver in 2001 than in 2003. Same with Button 2004 compared to 2000. Usually drivers take a big jump in performance into their second season.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 2:41 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Almost all drivers take time and get better after a few years. Hamilton is a massive exception in being good straight away.

Vettel clearly improved steadily from 2007-2011
Kimi went from slower the Heidfeld in 2001 to possibly the fastest guy in F1 in 2003
Button's improvement was clear from 2000 through to 2004.

ETC ETC ETC.


Of course they do, but they don't get a lot faster, they get slightly faster. Vettel's cars improved steadily from 2007-2011, as did Kimi's and Button's.


And the speed also did it can easily be seen. Kimi was a much faster driver in 2001 than in 2003. Same with Button 2004 compared to 2000. Usually drivers take a big jump in performance into their second season.


Button had Sato as a teammate in 2004 who was a bit below average, and before that he had Villeneuve who was clearly a better driver than Sato. However the 2004 BAR was a lot better than the 2003 BAR so this is clouding your thinking.

Button actually seemed to be worse in 2001 than he was in 2000 which discredits your theory that drivers take a big jump in performance in their second season.

In 2002 he beat Trulli but only slightly. So 2001 seems to be the outlier which I don't understand, but other than that we see a slight improvement from Jenson from year-to-year, nothing miraculous. The major results improvements came about from his equipment significantly improving.

As for Kimi, well his cars got better and he slightly improved as a driver, helped out by being compared to an ageing Coulthard. He mainly looked good in 2003 because his car was very reliable, he still only won one race as part of his title challenge and almost pulled off a Keke Rosberg that year.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:15 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
They always say things like that to big themselves up.

That comment came from a guy who finished in the points in his first grand prix with very little preparation time.

Not only that but he could also have meant that after two weeks he was 90% comfortable with the car, and then after fifty two weeks he got to being 100% comfortable with the car. It doesn't necessarily mean that after say fourty five weeks in the car he was only 30% comfortable with the car and then after fifty two weeks he got to being 100% comfortable with the car.

You see that as a dig against Vettel?


In what way? I am merely saying that Vettel's comment was likely a generic throwaway one that we hear from drivers a lot of the time and that we shouldn't really read too much into it. His results proved otherwise and I prefer to look at those over his random comments. It's the same as in one of the other threads a few months back where people were debating over and over about Mercedes sandbagging comments and them doubting their preseason pace and that they would be in for a tough challenge from Ferrari etc. only to turn up in Australia and wipe the floor with them. A lot of interview comments from teams and drivers should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I used Vettel purely as an example of how it takes drivers time to get up to full speed in F1, I could have used another driver like Montoya who also mentioned it took him some time, what they have in common is they both made reference to the fact.

Strange you didn't like the post, also strange with the post about Mercedes that totally went off on a tangent. :?


Montoya was quick immediately and should have won in Brazil 2001, (his third race I believe), but he got punted off the track by a backmarker. He also won in his first season and was robbed of at least one other win due to mechanical failure in Germany. So again Montoya's results, or (potential results in the case of Brazil and Germany), contradict his comment about taking time to get up to speed.

In particular he struggled with getting the maximum performance out of the brakes, he was braking too early in comparison to his teammate Ralf Schumacher, Montoya won a race, Schumacher won 3 races and scored more points but it was a season littered with retirements for both drivers.

You mention Montoya nearly won the race in Australia, well Ralf Schumacher retired from the race on lap 4 after out qualifying Montoya by one full second, Montoya qualified 11th, the second half of the season Montoya bagged 3 pole positions.

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2019 3:53 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

In what way? I am merely saying that Vettel's comment was likely a generic throwaway one that we hear from drivers a lot of the time and that we shouldn't really read too much into it. His results proved otherwise and I prefer to look at those over his random comments. It's the same as in one of the other threads a few months back where people were debating over and over about Mercedes sandbagging comments and them doubting their preseason pace and that they would be in for a tough challenge from Ferrari etc. only to turn up in Australia and wipe the floor with them. A lot of interview comments from teams and drivers should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I used Vettel purely as an example of how it takes drivers time to get up to full speed in F1, I could have used another driver like Montoya who also mentioned it took him some time, what they have in common is they both made reference to the fact.

Strange you didn't like the post, also strange with the post about Mercedes that totally went off on a tangent. :?


Montoya was quick immediately and should have won in Brazil 2001, (his third race I believe), but he got punted off the track by a backmarker. He also won in his first season and was robbed of at least one other win due to mechanical failure in Germany. So again Montoya's results, or (potential results in the case of Brazil and Germany), contradict his comment about taking time to get up to speed.

In particular he struggled with getting the maximum performance out of the brakes, he was braking too early in comparison to his teammate Ralf Schumacher, Montoya won a race, Schumacher won 3 races and scored more points but it was a season littered with retirements for both drivers.

You mention Montoya nearly won the race in Australia, well Ralf Schumacher retired from the race on lap 4 after out qualifying Montoya by one full second, Montoya qualified 11th, the second half of the season Montoya bagged 3 pole positions.


Montoya nearly won Brazil, not Australia. He was well in front in Brazil with no more stops to make and he was punted out by a car being lapped, (Jos the boss). Plus he put a late braking move on Michael Schumacher of all people in Brazil to take the lead so his late braking wasn't too bad. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:44 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

In what way? I am merely saying that Vettel's comment was likely a generic throwaway one that we hear from drivers a lot of the time and that we shouldn't really read too much into it. His results proved otherwise and I prefer to look at those over his random comments. It's the same as in one of the other threads a few months back where people were debating over and over about Mercedes sandbagging comments and them doubting their preseason pace and that they would be in for a tough challenge from Ferrari etc. only to turn up in Australia and wipe the floor with them. A lot of interview comments from teams and drivers should be taken with a pinch of salt.

I used Vettel purely as an example of how it takes drivers time to get up to full speed in F1, I could have used another driver like Montoya who also mentioned it took him some time, what they have in common is they both made reference to the fact.

Strange you didn't like the post, also strange with the post about Mercedes that totally went off on a tangent. :?


Montoya was quick immediately and should have won in Brazil 2001, (his third race I believe), but he got punted off the track by a backmarker. He also won in his first season and was robbed of at least one other win due to mechanical failure in Germany. So again Montoya's results, or (potential results in the case of Brazil and Germany), contradict his comment about taking time to get up to speed.

In particular he struggled with getting the maximum performance out of the brakes, he was braking too early in comparison to his teammate Ralf Schumacher, Montoya won a race, Schumacher won 3 races and scored more points but it was a season littered with retirements for both drivers.

You mention Montoya nearly won the race in Australia, well Ralf Schumacher retired from the race on lap 4 after out qualifying Montoya by one full second, Montoya qualified 11th, the second half of the season Montoya bagged 3 pole positions.


Montoya nearly won Brazil, not Australia. He was well in front in Brazil with no more stops to make and he was punted out by a car being lapped, (Jos the boss). Plus he put a late braking move on Michael Schumacher of all people in Brazil to take the lead so his late braking wasn't too bad. ;)

Fair enough for some reason I got thrown by you saying that he was quick immediately and then jump to the 3rd race were he was competitive unlike the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th and 10th races but I am quite use to this kind of technique.

You use one out braking pass to prove he had no issues with the braking so what was his problem that caused him to be miles slower than Ralf Schumacher in qualifying in 7 out of the first 10 races rather than Montoya himself saying he had problems maximising the braking capabilities of a F1 car?

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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:53 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

Montoya was quick immediately and should have won in Brazil 2001, (his third race I believe), but he got punted off the track by a backmarker. He also won in his first season and was robbed of at least one other win due to mechanical failure in Germany. So again Montoya's results, or (potential results in the case of Brazil and Germany), contradict his comment about taking time to get up to speed.

In particular he struggled with getting the maximum performance out of the brakes, he was braking too early in comparison to his teammate Ralf Schumacher, Montoya won a race, Schumacher won 3 races and scored more points but it was a season littered with retirements for both drivers.

You mention Montoya nearly won the race in Australia, well Ralf Schumacher retired from the race on lap 4 after out qualifying Montoya by one full second, Montoya qualified 11th, the second half of the season Montoya bagged 3 pole positions.


Montoya nearly won Brazil, not Australia. He was well in front in Brazil with no more stops to make and he was punted out by a car being lapped, (Jos the boss). Plus he put a late braking move on Michael Schumacher of all people in Brazil to take the lead so his late braking wasn't too bad. ;)

Fair enough for some reason I got thrown by you saying that he was quick immediately and then jump to the 3rd race were he was competitive unlike the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th and 10th races but I am quite use to this kind of technique.

You use one out braking pass to prove he had no issues with the braking so what was his problem that caused him to be miles slower than Ralf Schumacher in qualifying in 7 out of the first 10 races rather than Montoya himself saying he had problems maximising the braking capabilities of a F1 car?


So he was slightly slower in qualifying than Ralf Schumacher who was a fairly decent driver in his prime at that point. Look at what Ralf Schumacher did to Alex Zanardi in 1999 and Jenson Button in 2000. Montoya compared more favourably against RS than either of those two did.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:28 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

Montoya was quick immediately and should have won in Brazil 2001, (his third race I believe), but he got punted off the track by a backmarker. He also won in his first season and was robbed of at least one other win due to mechanical failure in Germany. So again Montoya's results, or (potential results in the case of Brazil and Germany), contradict his comment about taking time to get up to speed.

In particular he struggled with getting the maximum performance out of the brakes, he was braking too early in comparison to his teammate Ralf Schumacher, Montoya won a race, Schumacher won 3 races and scored more points but it was a season littered with retirements for both drivers.

You mention Montoya nearly won the race in Australia, well Ralf Schumacher retired from the race on lap 4 after out qualifying Montoya by one full second, Montoya qualified 11th, the second half of the season Montoya bagged 3 pole positions.


Montoya nearly won Brazil, not Australia. He was well in front in Brazil with no more stops to make and he was punted out by a car being lapped, (Jos the boss). Plus he put a late braking move on Michael Schumacher of all people in Brazil to take the lead so his late braking wasn't too bad. ;)

Fair enough for some reason I got thrown by you saying that he was quick immediately and then jump to the 3rd race were he was competitive unlike the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th and 10th races but I am quite use to this kind of technique.

You use one out braking pass to prove he had no issues with the braking so what was his problem that caused him to be miles slower than Ralf Schumacher in qualifying in 7 out of the first 10 races rather than Montoya himself saying he had problems maximising the braking capabilities of a F1 car?


So he was slightly slower in qualifying than Ralf Schumacher who was a fairly decent driver in his prime at that point. Look at what Ralf Schumacher did to Alex Zanardi in 1999 and Jenson Button in 2000. Montoya compared more favourably against RS than either of those two did.

He wasn't just slightly slower the gaps were:-

1.019s
0.707s
0.784s
0.644s
0.722s
0.826s
0.636s

Montoya would later become one of the better qualifiers in F1 with several pole positions, to me that looks like a driver struggling to get up to speed in F1.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:34 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

Montoya was quick immediately and should have won in Brazil 2001, (his third race I believe), but he got punted off the track by a backmarker. He also won in his first season and was robbed of at least one other win due to mechanical failure in Germany. So again Montoya's results, or (potential results in the case of Brazil and Germany), contradict his comment about taking time to get up to speed.

In particular he struggled with getting the maximum performance out of the brakes, he was braking too early in comparison to his teammate Ralf Schumacher, Montoya won a race, Schumacher won 3 races and scored more points but it was a season littered with retirements for both drivers.

You mention Montoya nearly won the race in Australia, well Ralf Schumacher retired from the race on lap 4 after out qualifying Montoya by one full second, Montoya qualified 11th, the second half of the season Montoya bagged 3 pole positions.


Montoya nearly won Brazil, not Australia. He was well in front in Brazil with no more stops to make and he was punted out by a car being lapped, (Jos the boss). Plus he put a late braking move on Michael Schumacher of all people in Brazil to take the lead so his late braking wasn't too bad. ;)

Fair enough for some reason I got thrown by you saying that he was quick immediately and then jump to the 3rd race were he was competitive unlike the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th and 10th races but I am quite use to this kind of technique.

You use one out braking pass to prove he had no issues with the braking so what was his problem that caused him to be miles slower than Ralf Schumacher in qualifying in 7 out of the first 10 races rather than Montoya himself saying he had problems maximising the braking capabilities of a F1 car?


So he was slightly slower in qualifying than Ralf Schumacher who was a fairly decent driver in his prime at that point. Look at what Ralf Schumacher did to Alex Zanardi in 1999 and Jenson Button in 2000. Montoya compared more favourably against RS than either of those two did.


But improved to become faster than him after 2001.

Showing that even experienced rookies like Montoya get quicker.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:02 pm 
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Posts: 344
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

Montoya nearly won Brazil, not Australia. He was well in front in Brazil with no more stops to make and he was punted out by a car being lapped, (Jos the boss). Plus he put a late braking move on Michael Schumacher of all people in Brazil to take the lead so his late braking wasn't too bad. ;)

Fair enough for some reason I got thrown by you saying that he was quick immediately and then jump to the 3rd race were he was competitive unlike the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th and 10th races but I am quite use to this kind of technique.

You use one out braking pass to prove he had no issues with the braking so what was his problem that caused him to be miles slower than Ralf Schumacher in qualifying in 7 out of the first 10 races rather than Montoya himself saying he had problems maximising the braking capabilities of a F1 car?


So he was slightly slower in qualifying than Ralf Schumacher who was a fairly decent driver in his prime at that point. Look at what Ralf Schumacher did to Alex Zanardi in 1999 and Jenson Button in 2000. Montoya compared more favourably against RS than either of those two did.


But improved to become faster than him after 2001.

Showing that even experienced rookies like Montoya get quicker.


He did end up faster than him after that, but I don't recall him being much faster in 2003 and 2004, (Ralf missed a fair bit of the latter season). Plus Ralf made more mistakes from what I recall which further increased the gap between them more than the pace difference should have allowed. Montoya improved a bit as all people learn. He didn't find bags of pace though.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:17 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15603
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

Montoya nearly won Brazil, not Australia. He was well in front in Brazil with no more stops to make and he was punted out by a car being lapped, (Jos the boss). Plus he put a late braking move on Michael Schumacher of all people in Brazil to take the lead so his late braking wasn't too bad. ;)

Fair enough for some reason I got thrown by you saying that he was quick immediately and then jump to the 3rd race were he was competitive unlike the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, 8th and 10th races but I am quite use to this kind of technique.

You use one out braking pass to prove he had no issues with the braking so what was his problem that caused him to be miles slower than Ralf Schumacher in qualifying in 7 out of the first 10 races rather than Montoya himself saying he had problems maximising the braking capabilities of a F1 car?


So he was slightly slower in qualifying than Ralf Schumacher who was a fairly decent driver in his prime at that point. Look at what Ralf Schumacher did to Alex Zanardi in 1999 and Jenson Button in 2000. Montoya compared more favourably against RS than either of those two did.


But improved to become faster than him after 2001.

Showing that even experienced rookies like Montoya get quicker.


He did end up faster than him after that, but I don't recall him being much faster in 2003 and 2004, (Ralf missed a fair bit of the latter season). Plus Ralf made more mistakes from what I recall which further increased the gap between them more than the pace difference should have allowed. Montoya improved a bit as all people learn. He didn't find bags of pace though.


He clearly did get a lot faster. He started 2001 miles off the pace and by 2002 was faster than Ralf.

In almost every example where a rookie has the same experienced team mate for their fist few seasons you can see the rookie get faster against them. Whether it's Kubica/Heidfeld or Ocon/Perez.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:18 pm 
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Posts: 344
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

So he was slightly slower in qualifying than Ralf Schumacher who was a fairly decent driver in his prime at that point. Look at what Ralf Schumacher did to Alex Zanardi in 1999 and Jenson Button in 2000. Montoya compared more favourably against RS than either of those two did.


But improved to become faster than him after 2001.

Showing that even experienced rookies like Montoya get quicker.


He did end up faster than him after that, but I don't recall him being much faster in 2003 and 2004, (Ralf missed a fair bit of the latter season). Plus Ralf made more mistakes from what I recall which further increased the gap between them more than the pace difference should have allowed. Montoya improved a bit as all people learn. He didn't find bags of pace though.


He clearly did get a lot faster. He started 2001 miles off the pace and by 2002 was faster than Ralf.

In almost every example where a rookie has the same experienced team mate for their fist few seasons you can see the rookie get faster against them. Whether it's Kubica/Heidfeld or Ocon/Perez.


In race 3 of 2001 Montoya was 0.075 off Ralf in qualifying and plain outraced him. By race 9 he was pretty much there with Ralf in qualifying, albeit with the earlier race buying him more time. It was Brazil 2001 that forced one to pay attention to Juan. If that race didn't happen then he would have been under pressure.

Also it's debateable how good Montoya really was. Was he only as good as a Jacques Villeneuve say? I mean he was beaten fairly easily by Kimi in 2005 and 2006 at a time when Montoya definitely wouldn't have been past it age-wise, (he was only 29/30 years old during that time). So therefore Montoya is not a great example of someone who progressed tonnes and found loads of pace because his upper ceiling wasn't really that high was it. It's not like he started really bad and turned into a champion and one of the greats of the sport. Instead he started a bit weirdly with random erratic up and down races early on, (a bit like JV to be honest). Then once he presumably had progressed and improved, he still wasn't really that quick was he? He only progressed to a level of being a bit faster than Ralf and slower than Kimi.

The 2003 Williams BMW could easily have been the class of the field for all we know, and JPM and RS blew an easy chance at the title, whereas instead that season was viewed as a real breakthrough season for them both coming of age and finally getting into title contention. Their career trajectories after this season suggest that it was likely the former scenario rather than the commonly accepted at the time latter scenario.


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 Post subject: Re: Albon in, Gasly out
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:59 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 15603
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

So he was slightly slower in qualifying than Ralf Schumacher who was a fairly decent driver in his prime at that point. Look at what Ralf Schumacher did to Alex Zanardi in 1999 and Jenson Button in 2000. Montoya compared more favourably against RS than either of those two did.


But improved to become faster than him after 2001.

Showing that even experienced rookies like Montoya get quicker.


He did end up faster than him after that, but I don't recall him being much faster in 2003 and 2004, (Ralf missed a fair bit of the latter season). Plus Ralf made more mistakes from what I recall which further increased the gap between them more than the pace difference should have allowed. Montoya improved a bit as all people learn. He didn't find bags of pace though.


He clearly did get a lot faster. He started 2001 miles off the pace and by 2002 was faster than Ralf.

In almost every example where a rookie has the same experienced team mate for their fist few seasons you can see the rookie get faster against them. Whether it's Kubica/Heidfeld or Ocon/Perez.


In race 3 of 2001 Montoya was 0.075 off Ralf in qualifying and plain outraced him. By race 9 he was pretty much there with Ralf in qualifying, albeit with the earlier race buying him more time. It was Brazil 2001 that forced one to pay attention to Juan. If that race didn't happen then he would have been under pressure.

Also it's debateable how good Montoya really was. Was he only as good as a Jacques Villeneuve say? I mean he was beaten fairly easily by Kimi in 2005 and 2006 at a time when Montoya definitely wouldn't have been past it age-wise, (he was only 29/30 years old during that time). So therefore Montoya is not a great example of someone who progressed tonnes and found loads of pace because his upper ceiling wasn't really that high was it. It's not like he started really bad and turned into a champion and one of the greats of the sport. Instead he started a bit weirdly with random erratic up and down races early on, (a bit like JV to be honest). Then once he presumably had progressed and improved, he still wasn't really that quick was he? He only progressed to a level of being a bit faster than Ralf and slower than Kimi.

The 2003 Williams BMW could easily have been the class of the field for all we know, and JPM and RS blew an easy chance at the title, whereas instead that season was viewed as a real breakthrough season for them both coming of age and finally getting into title contention. Their career trajectories after this season suggest that it was likely the former scenario rather than the commonly accepted at the time latter scenario.


The relative speed of the Williams in 2003 is not relevant. He started off well behind Ralf and improved to the point where he was faster.

And you're right. He is a very bad example because he was such an experienced rookie he didn't have that far to go in terms of improvement. I assume you brought him up because he was a bad example? That actually straightens my case. Even the bad examples prove it to a certain extent. Almost all drivers get faster. Most improve more than Montoya.


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