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Rank the Red Bull / Toro Rosso drivers in order
Poll runs till Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:25 pm
Rank the Red Bull / Toro Rosso drivers in order 3%  3%  [ 35 ]
Alexander Albon 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Alexander Albon_1 2%  2%  [ 22 ]
Alexander Albon_2 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Alexander Albon_3 2%  2%  [ 22 ]
Alexander Albon_4 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Brendon Hartley 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Brendon Hartley_1 2%  2%  [ 20 ]
Brendon Hartley_2 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
Brendon Hartley_3 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Brendon Hartley_4 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Carlos Sainz Jnr 2%  2%  [ 21 ]
Carlos Sainz Jnr_1 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Carlos Sainz Jnr_2 2%  2%  [ 24 ]
Carlos Sainz Jnr_3 1%  1%  [ 8 ]
Carlos Sainz Jnr_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Christian Klien 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Christian Klien_1 1%  1%  [ 11 ]
Christian Klien_2 2%  2%  [ 21 ]
Christian Klien_3 2%  2%  [ 21 ]
Christian Klien_4 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
Daniel Ricciardo 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Daniel Ricciardo_1 2%  2%  [ 28 ]
Daniel Ricciardo_2 0%  0%  [ 4 ]
Daniel Ricciardo_3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Daniel Ricciardo_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Daniil Kvyat 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Daniil Kvyat_1 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Daniil Kvyat_2 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
Daniil Kvyat_3 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Daniil Kvyat_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
David Coulthard 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
David Coulthard_1 1%  1%  [ 18 ]
David Coulthard_2 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
David Coulthard_3 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
David Coulthard_4 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Jaime Alguersuari 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Jaime Alguersuari_1 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Jaime Alguersuari_2 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Jaime Alguersuari_3 2%  2%  [ 32 ]
Jaime Alguersuari_4 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Jean Eric Vergne 1%  1%  [ 15 ]
Jean Eric Vergne_1 1%  1%  [ 11 ]
Jean Eric Vergne_2 1%  1%  [ 16 ]
Jean Eric Vergne_3 2%  2%  [ 20 ]
Jean Eric Vergne_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Mark Webber 1%  1%  [ 14 ]
Mark Webber_1 1%  1%  [ 14 ]
Mark Webber_2 2%  2%  [ 29 ]
Mark Webber_3 0%  0%  [ 3 ]
Mark Webber_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Max Verstappen 2%  2%  [ 22 ]
Max Verstappen_1 1%  1%  [ 14 ]
Max Verstappen_2 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Max Verstappen_3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Max Verstappen_4 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Pierre Gasly 2%  2%  [ 20 ]
Pierre Gasly_1 2%  2%  [ 20 ]
Pierre Gasly_2 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Pierre Gasly_3 2%  2%  [ 30 ]
Pierre Gasly_4 0%  0%  [ 3 ]
Robert Doornos 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Robert Doornos_1 1%  1%  [ 17 ]
Robert Doornos_2 1%  1%  [ 7 ]
Robert Doornos_3 1%  1%  [ 8 ]
Robert Doornos_4 2%  2%  [ 27 ]
Scott Speed 1%  1%  [ 14 ]
Scott Speed_1 1%  1%  [ 12 ]
Scott Speed_2 1%  1%  [ 9 ]
Scott Speed_3 1%  1%  [ 10 ]
Scott Speed_4 2%  2%  [ 24 ]
Sebastian Bourdais 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Sebastian Bourdais_1 2%  2%  [ 23 ]
Sebastian Bourdais_2 1%  1%  [ 14 ]
Sebastian Bourdais_3 2%  2%  [ 23 ]
Sebastian Bourdais_4 1%  1%  [ 10 ]
Sebastian Buemi 2%  2%  [ 23 ]
Sebastian Buemi_1 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
Sebastian Buemi_2 1%  1%  [ 19 ]
Sebastian Buemi_3 2%  2%  [ 25 ]
Sebastian Buemi_4 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Sebastian Vettel 2%  2%  [ 25 ]
Sebastian Vettel_1 2%  2%  [ 20 ]
Sebastian Vettel_2 0%  0%  [ 5 ]
Sebastian Vettel_3 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Sebastian Vettel_4 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Vitantonio Liuzzi 1%  1%  [ 13 ]
Vitantonio Liuzzi_1 2%  2%  [ 24 ]
Vitantonio Liuzzi_2 2%  2%  [ 28 ]
Vitantonio Liuzzi_3 2%  2%  [ 30 ]
Vitantonio Liuzzi_4 0%  0%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 1330
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:25 pm 
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I received a request to run the a sortable poll ranking the Red Bull and Toro Rosso drivers over the years, and with today's news it seems like the perfect time to do it.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:33 pm 
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Buemi is missing?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:36 pm 
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j man wrote:
Buemi is missing?

Oops.

Ok, added - sorry to the two people who voted, you'll have to do it again...


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:38 pm 
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What are we ranking them based on? Current performance? Career achievement? Who you would want to start a team with?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:41 pm 
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I ranked them in terms of performances for Red Bull.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:45 pm 
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1: Max Verstappen
2: Sebastian Vettel
3: Daniel Ricciardo
4: Mark Webber
5: Jean Eric Vergne
6: Carlos Sainz Jnr
7: Alexander Albon
8: David Coulthard
9: Jaime Alguersuari
10: Daniil Kvyat
11: Pierre Gasly
12: Sebastian Buemi
13: Sebastian Bourdais
14: Christian Klien
15: Vitantonio Liuzzi
16: Scott Speed
17: Brendon Hartley
18: Robert Doornbos

- Yes Ricciardo beat Vettel in 2014. But I believe Vettel would have beaten him in the 2010-2013 spec cars which suited his driving style much better. Vettel also has 4 championships that Ricciardo does not.
- Vergne was a fine driver and was harshly booted out for not being quite as good as Ricciardo
- I may have been swayed by the recent news regarding Albon. But he's still in his rookie year and my ranking is based on what I believe his potential is.
- Alguersuari was also harshly treated in my opinion, he was thrown into the STR seat before he was ready and then dropped once he started to show some form.
- I forgot Doornbos even raced for them. Had to look that one up!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:46 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I ranked them in terms of performances for Red Bull.


This seems about the best bet, now that I've read that.

But the key thing is driver performance, not driver results - as otherwise it would automatically be Vettel. I guess the idea would be if you took any of them from their Red Bull / Toro Rosso years and pitted them against each other in the Red Bull main team.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:14 pm 
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Come on now guys. Sainz better than Coulthard or Webber. Lets be sensible. Webber took a championship down to the last race for Red Bull for goodness sake.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:25 pm 
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Mod Aqua wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I ranked them in terms of performances for Red Bull.


This seems about the best bet, now that I've read that.

But the key thing is driver performance, not driver results - as otherwise it would automatically be Vettel. I guess the idea would be if you took any of them from their Red Bull / Toro Rosso years and pitted them against each other in the Red Bull main team.

I still think it's automatically Vettel by that criteria. Winning 4 consecutive WDCs is far beyond anything any of the others have accomplished and 2012 in particular was a difficult one to secure.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:28 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Mod Aqua wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I ranked them in terms of performances for Red Bull.


This seems about the best bet, now that I've read that.

But the key thing is driver performance, not driver results - as otherwise it would automatically be Vettel. I guess the idea would be if you took any of them from their Red Bull / Toro Rosso years and pitted them against each other in the Red Bull main team.

I still think it's automatically Vettel by that criteria. Winning 4 consecutive WDCs is far beyond anything any of the others have accomplished and 2012 in particular was a difficult one to secure.


I went for Vettel.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:01 pm 
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I tried to rank them taking into account both their performance in Red Bull/Toro Rosso (and any other F1 seats they may have had) as well as anything they accomplished in other racing series later. I went with:

Sebastian Vettel
Max Verstappen
Daniel Ricciardo
Mark Webber
Sebastian Bourdais
Jean Eric Vergne
David Coulthard
Carlos Sainz Jr
Sebastian Buemi
Jaime Alguersari
Alexander Albon
Daniil Kvyat
Brendon Hartley
Pierre Gasly
Vitantonio Liuzzi
Scott Speed
Christian Klien
Robert Doornos

I think there's a good chance that Verstappen is actually better than Vettel, and that Ricciardo may be just as good, but those two are more based on potential than results. Similarly, Sainz and Albon could end up looking better than some drivers I ranked ahead of them, but they haven't yet - so I left them where they are.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 1:28 am 
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Remmirath wrote:
I tried to rank them taking into account both their performance in Red Bull/Toro Rosso (and any other F1 seats they may have had) as well as anything they accomplished in other racing series later. I went with:

Sebastian Vettel
Max Verstappen
Daniel Ricciardo
Mark Webber
Sebastian Bourdais
Jean Eric Vergne
David Coulthard
Carlos Sainz Jr
Sebastian Buemi
Jaime Alguersari
Alexander Albon
Daniil Kvyat
Brendon Hartley
Pierre Gasly
Vitantonio Liuzzi
Scott Speed
Christian Klien
Robert Doornos

I think there's a good chance that Verstappen is actually better than Vettel, and that Ricciardo may be just as good, but those two are more based on potential than results. Similarly, Sainz and Albon could end up looking better than some drivers I ranked ahead of them, but they haven't yet - so I left them where they are.

I have to admit that I'm a bit mystified by how you rated Hartley ahead of Gasly.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:13 am 
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Too many of their drivers were dropped before getting a proper chance to really rate them fairly. Buemi & JEV in particular come to mind.

As for Hartley being rated above Gasly… I can see that.

While initially Hartley was out of his depth , he really did gain a proper understanding of the car after the summer break and he did quite well and I was a bit shocked they dropped him and even more shocked they promoted Gasly based on a couple of solid performances from earlier on in the year. I think Hartley deserves at least another year, but Albon has been stellar.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:22 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Mod Aqua wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I ranked them in terms of performances for Red Bull.


This seems about the best bet, now that I've read that.

But the key thing is driver performance, not driver results - as otherwise it would automatically be Vettel. I guess the idea would be if you took any of them from their Red Bull / Toro Rosso years and pitted them against each other in the Red Bull main team.

I still think it's automatically Vettel by that criteria. Winning 4 consecutive WDCs is far beyond anything any of the others have accomplished and 2012 in particular was a difficult one to secure.

I simply went for who I thought were the best drivers, how many titles would Vettel have won with either Ricciardo or Verstappen as teammates?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mod Aqua wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I ranked them in terms of performances for Red Bull.


This seems about the best bet, now that I've read that.

But the key thing is driver performance, not driver results - as otherwise it would automatically be Vettel. I guess the idea would be if you took any of them from their Red Bull / Toro Rosso years and pitted them against each other in the Red Bull main team.

I still think it's automatically Vettel by that criteria. Winning 4 consecutive WDCs is far beyond anything any of the others have accomplished and 2012 in particular was a difficult one to secure.

I simply went for who I thought were the best drivers, how many titles would Vettel have won with either Ricciardo or Verstappen as teammates?

Then put Albon in first, if it is woulda/coulda/shoulda...


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 4:36 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mod Aqua wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I ranked them in terms of performances for Red Bull.


This seems about the best bet, now that I've read that.

But the key thing is driver performance, not driver results - as otherwise it would automatically be Vettel. I guess the idea would be if you took any of them from their Red Bull / Toro Rosso years and pitted them against each other in the Red Bull main team.

I still think it's automatically Vettel by that criteria. Winning 4 consecutive WDCs is far beyond anything any of the others have accomplished and 2012 in particular was a difficult one to secure.

I simply went for who I thought were the best drivers, how many titles would Vettel have won with either Ricciardo or Verstappen as teammates?

Then put Albon in first, if it is woulda/coulda/shoulda...

I can't determine how good Albon actually is, also it seems most have done the same as me.

I thought the woulda, coulda, shoulda centred on drivers who blew their chances not ones that never were given a chance?

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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 7:33 pm 
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Vettel easily #1. I don't think the rest of the drivers on the list combined have as many win as he did in Red Bull. Plus he's the only one on the list to pole or win in a Toro Rosso. Dominant stretch.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:36 pm 
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Vettel Fan wrote:
Vettel easily #1. I don't think the rest of the drivers on the list combined have as many win as he did in Red Bull. Plus he's the only one on the list to pole or win in a Toro Rosso. Dominant stretch.

If it's just in terms of achievement whilst driving for Red Bull then there is no point in the poll just list the drivers in order of titles, wins etc.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:40 pm 
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Vettel Fan wrote:
Vettel easily #1. I don't think the rest of the drivers on the list combined have as many win as he did in Red Bull. Plus he's the only one on the list to pole or win in a Toro Rosso. Dominant stretch.


I agree. Max is great and all but Vettel was flawless in large parts of his four year dominance. Some of his performances in the second half of 2013 we're completely perfect.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 8:41 pm 
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'Schtappen, Vettel, 'Ciardo - in that order

Then second tier - Coulthard, Webber, Sainz

Then tier 2.5 - Kfiat, Albon. These two got some time to move up

Then a huge list of nobodies


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:08 pm 
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Looks like I'm roughly in line with the average. I went with their Red Bull performances, DC would have been higher if I included his time at McLaren. I accidentally put Bourdais last, not realising it was him (it just said Sebastian on my screen, thought it was a mistake).

Biggest deviation was Albon, average in 9th, I had him 12th. That's behind Buemi and Algae but that isn't really based on anything.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:33 am 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mod Aqua wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I ranked them in terms of performances for Red Bull.


This seems about the best bet, now that I've read that.

But the key thing is driver performance, not driver results - as otherwise it would automatically be Vettel. I guess the idea would be if you took any of them from their Red Bull / Toro Rosso years and pitted them against each other in the Red Bull main team.

I still think it's automatically Vettel by that criteria. Winning 4 consecutive WDCs is far beyond anything any of the others have accomplished and 2012 in particular was a difficult one to secure.

I simply went for who I thought were the best drivers, how many titles would Vettel have won with either Ricciardo or Verstappen as teammates?

Your quote from the Hamilton GOAT thread:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed achievement will always have a higher standing than couldha, wouldha, shouldha.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:12 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mod Aqua wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I ranked them in terms of performances for Red Bull.


This seems about the best bet, now that I've read that.

But the key thing is driver performance, not driver results - as otherwise it would automatically be Vettel. I guess the idea would be if you took any of them from their Red Bull / Toro Rosso years and pitted them against each other in the Red Bull main team.

I still think it's automatically Vettel by that criteria. Winning 4 consecutive WDCs is far beyond anything any of the others have accomplished and 2012 in particular was a difficult one to secure.

I simply went for who I thought were the best drivers, how many titles would Vettel have won with either Ricciardo or Verstappen as teammates?

Your quote from the Hamilton GOAT thread:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed achievement will always have a higher standing than couldha, wouldha, shouldha.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Never fails to amuse me how people contradict themselves when it suits their agenda, and then play all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify that...


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:22 pm 
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A.J. wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mod Aqua wrote:

This seems about the best bet, now that I've read that.

But the key thing is driver performance, not driver results - as otherwise it would automatically be Vettel. I guess the idea would be if you took any of them from their Red Bull / Toro Rosso years and pitted them against each other in the Red Bull main team.

I still think it's automatically Vettel by that criteria. Winning 4 consecutive WDCs is far beyond anything any of the others have accomplished and 2012 in particular was a difficult one to secure.

I simply went for who I thought were the best drivers, how many titles would Vettel have won with either Ricciardo or Verstappen as teammates?

Your quote from the Hamilton GOAT thread:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed achievement will always have a higher standing than couldha, wouldha, shouldha.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Never fails to amuse me how people contradict themselves when it suits their agenda, and then play all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify that...


I'm not going to speak for Poker but I think It's very possible he's not contradicting himself here and talking about two different things.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:30 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mod Aqua wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I ranked them in terms of performances for Red Bull.


This seems about the best bet, now that I've read that.

But the key thing is driver performance, not driver results - as otherwise it would automatically be Vettel. I guess the idea would be if you took any of them from their Red Bull / Toro Rosso years and pitted them against each other in the Red Bull main team.

I still think it's automatically Vettel by that criteria. Winning 4 consecutive WDCs is far beyond anything any of the others have accomplished and 2012 in particular was a difficult one to secure.

I simply went for who I thought were the best drivers, how many titles would Vettel have won with either Ricciardo or Verstappen as teammates?

Your quote from the Hamilton GOAT thread:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed achievement will always have a higher standing than couldha, wouldha, shouldha.

That's the second time I've had to answer that and I'm sure I was referring to drivers who had their chances not drivers who have yet to be given a chance?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:32 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
A.J. wrote:
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
I still think it's automatically Vettel by that criteria. Winning 4 consecutive WDCs is far beyond anything any of the others have accomplished and 2012 in particular was a difficult one to secure.

I simply went for who I thought were the best drivers, how many titles would Vettel have won with either Ricciardo or Verstappen as teammates?

Your quote from the Hamilton GOAT thread:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed achievement will always have a higher standing than couldha, wouldha, shouldha.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Never fails to amuse me how people contradict themselves when it suits their agenda, and then play all sorts of mental gymnastics to justify that...


I'm not going to speak for Poker but I think It's very possible he's not contradicting himself here and talking about two different things.

Yes I'm sure I was, I need to find the actual context. :thumbup:

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:34 pm 
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Mod Aqua wrote:
But the key thing is driver performance, not driver results - as otherwise it would automatically be Vettel. I guess the idea would be if you took any of them from their Red Bull / Toro Rosso years and pitted them against each other in the Red Bull main team.

Just a reminder of the thread starters intent which I believe I followed which is along the line of coulda etc.?

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 23rd

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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