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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:32 am 
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There are risks which never will be removed from motorsport. The worst things is to make a knee jerk reaction to fatal accidents like Hubert's, and do something unnecessary just for sake of doing something. When Gilles Villeneuve died in 1982, they made a long chicane in the place where his car landed, and his body nearby. But the track itself, and specially the altered part of the track, never had to do anything with death of Villeneuve.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:35 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Until a full investigation is performed, by trained individuals with access to far more data than us internet armchair pundits can get from a few glimpses from patchy video feeds, it's impossible for any of us to pass any judgement on this specific incident.

However, if it is found that he was deflected back onto the track by the barrier, looking at the area on Google Maps, there is a lot of space to add additional run off out of the exit.

Ultimately, no safety cell or crash structure is going to survive after being T-boned as a speed differential of 150mph, the only thing that can be done is to make sure that there is nothing on the track conditions to increase the odds of this happening. Whether or not the barrier had any part to play in this weekend's tragedy though doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at. I think we had an incident in F1 there last year or the year before, where a car got buried in it. I think it probably should get moved back another 100 metres or so.


It may not me that east. Remember, it's very hilly around there and it drops downhill considerably across to the area of the track towards Pouhon. Therefore, it may be that to move barriers back a decent distance could me impossible.

Image
Screenshot of Google Maps

This is what I am talking about removing, not 100m to the right. The 3D view on Google is not that detailed, but it looks like it should be possible.

Are we allowing cars to race whilst off the track then all in the name of safety?

Perhaps this is where the Paul Ricard model should come into play. High-abrasive run-off: the car is slowed down, it remains stable, the driver is penalised by virtue of tyre wear as a result.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:39 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Until a full investigation is performed, by trained individuals with access to far more data than us internet armchair pundits can get from a few glimpses from patchy video feeds, it's impossible for any of us to pass any judgement on this specific incident.

However, if it is found that he was deflected back onto the track by the barrier, looking at the area on Google Maps, there is a lot of space to add additional run off out of the exit.

Ultimately, no safety cell or crash structure is going to survive after being T-boned as a speed differential of 150mph, the only thing that can be done is to make sure that there is nothing on the track conditions to increase the odds of this happening. Whether or not the barrier had any part to play in this weekend's tragedy though doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at. I think we had an incident in F1 there last year or the year before, where a car got buried in it. I think it probably should get moved back another 100 metres or so.

There are pictures that show that Hubert's car was in the run off area and well off the track when it was struck by Correa's car, back to my point about cars being able to drive at full speed whilst outside the confines of the track.


Correa had lost his front wing. And looks like he was already out of control.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:47 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Until a full investigation is performed, by trained individuals with access to far more data than us internet armchair pundits can get from a few glimpses from patchy video feeds, it's impossible for any of us to pass any judgement on this specific incident.

However, if it is found that he was deflected back onto the track by the barrier, looking at the area on Google Maps, there is a lot of space to add additional run off out of the exit.

Ultimately, no safety cell or crash structure is going to survive after being T-boned as a speed differential of 150mph, the only thing that can be done is to make sure that there is nothing on the track conditions to increase the odds of this happening. Whether or not the barrier had any part to play in this weekend's tragedy though doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at. I think we had an incident in F1 there last year or the year before, where a car got buried in it. I think it probably should get moved back another 100 metres or so.


It may not me that east. Remember, it's very hilly around there and it drops downhill considerably across to the area of the track towards Pouhon. Therefore, it may be that to move barriers back a decent distance could me impossible.

Image
Screenshot of Google Maps

This is what I am talking about removing, not 100m to the right. The 3D view on Google is not that detailed, but it looks like it should be possible.

Are we allowing cars to race whilst off the track then all in the name of safety?

Perhaps this is where the Paul Ricard model should come into play. High-abrasive run-off: the car is slowed down, it remains stable, the driver is penalised by virtue of tyre wear as a result.

If that is effective then fair enough?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:48 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Until a full investigation is performed, by trained individuals with access to far more data than us internet armchair pundits can get from a few glimpses from patchy video feeds, it's impossible for any of us to pass any judgement on this specific incident.

However, if it is found that he was deflected back onto the track by the barrier, looking at the area on Google Maps, there is a lot of space to add additional run off out of the exit.

Ultimately, no safety cell or crash structure is going to survive after being T-boned as a speed differential of 150mph, the only thing that can be done is to make sure that there is nothing on the track conditions to increase the odds of this happening. Whether or not the barrier had any part to play in this weekend's tragedy though doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at. I think we had an incident in F1 there last year or the year before, where a car got buried in it. I think it probably should get moved back another 100 metres or so.

There are pictures that show that Hubert's car was in the run off area and well off the track when it was struck by Correa's car, back to my point about cars being able to drive at full speed whilst outside the confines of the track.
Let's also not forget that the pitlane exit from the non-F1 pits, also runs through that area. I have never understood why people thought it would be safer to join after a blind corner atop the Raidillon, than joining the track at Eau Rouge, away from the racing line. That means that even later on in the race, a car that gets out of control up the Raidillon, might hit one that leaves the pits.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:49 am 
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While we aren't allowed to post videos of the incident I have seen a few online. Hard to say what could be done to prevent it in future to be honest.

What I can piece together from the track side footage (nothing graphic or NSFW but spoilers anyway for people who don't want to know):
Spoiler (click to show)


Honestly it simply appears to be a combination of the speed and the unsighted nature of the corner meaning drivers can only react once they get over the crest of the hill.

I don't think extending the run off to be longer as shown in that picture above would have helped, if the run off was wider there's a good chance Hubert wouldn't have been thrown back into the firing line of other cars though, so maybe that's something worth looking at but with a lack of visibility until you get within a hundred metres of any stranded cars there there's always going to be an increased risk of an accident like this.


Last edited by Black_Flag_11 on Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:51 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Until a full investigation is performed, by trained individuals with access to far more data than us internet armchair pundits can get from a few glimpses from patchy video feeds, it's impossible for any of us to pass any judgement on this specific incident.

However, if it is found that he was deflected back onto the track by the barrier, looking at the area on Google Maps, there is a lot of space to add additional run off out of the exit.

Ultimately, no safety cell or crash structure is going to survive after being T-boned as a speed differential of 150mph, the only thing that can be done is to make sure that there is nothing on the track conditions to increase the odds of this happening. Whether or not the barrier had any part to play in this weekend's tragedy though doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at. I think we had an incident in F1 there last year or the year before, where a car got buried in it. I think it probably should get moved back another 100 metres or so.

There are pictures that show that Hubert's car was in the run off area and well off the track when it was struck by Correa's car, back to my point about cars being able to drive at full speed whilst outside the confines of the track.


Correa had lost his front wing. And looks like he was already out of control.
Is it known how he lost his wing? Was he taking avoiding action vis-à-vis Alesi, or another car?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:52 am 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
While we aren't allowed to post videos of the incident I have seen a few online. Hard to say what could be done to prevent it in future to be honest.

What I can piece together from the track side footage:
Spoiler (click to show)


Honestly it simply appears to be a combination of the speed and the unsighted nature of the corner meaning drivers can only react once they get over the crest of the hill.

I don't think extending the run off to be longer as shown in that picture above would have helped, if the run off was wider there's a good chance Hubert wouldn't have been thrown back into the firing line of other cars though, so maybe that's something worth looking at but with a lack of visibility until you get within a hundred metres of any stranded cars there there's always going to be an increased risk of an accident like this.


Hubert wasn't really thrown back into the firing line of other cars. He got collected off track by someone of the way to their own accident.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:53 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Until a full investigation is performed, by trained individuals with access to far more data than us internet armchair pundits can get from a few glimpses from patchy video feeds, it's impossible for any of us to pass any judgement on this specific incident.

However, if it is found that he was deflected back onto the track by the barrier, looking at the area on Google Maps, there is a lot of space to add additional run off out of the exit.

Ultimately, no safety cell or crash structure is going to survive after being T-boned as a speed differential of 150mph, the only thing that can be done is to make sure that there is nothing on the track conditions to increase the odds of this happening. Whether or not the barrier had any part to play in this weekend's tragedy though doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at. I think we had an incident in F1 there last year or the year before, where a car got buried in it. I think it probably should get moved back another 100 metres or so.

There are pictures that show that Hubert's car was in the run off area and well off the track when it was struck by Correa's car, back to my point about cars being able to drive at full speed whilst outside the confines of the track.


Correa had lost his front wing. And looks like he was already out of control.

Given that he didn't appear to attempt to slow down until he saw Hubert's car which by then was far too late, also if he had no steering which took him right and off the track how did he then manage to avoid the barrier by turning away from it, surely after going right and off the track his car then had to turn left to avoid the barrier?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:56 am 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Until a full investigation is performed, by trained individuals with access to far more data than us internet armchair pundits can get from a few glimpses from patchy video feeds, it's impossible for any of us to pass any judgement on this specific incident.

However, if it is found that he was deflected back onto the track by the barrier, looking at the area on Google Maps, there is a lot of space to add additional run off out of the exit.

Ultimately, no safety cell or crash structure is going to survive after being T-boned as a speed differential of 150mph, the only thing that can be done is to make sure that there is nothing on the track conditions to increase the odds of this happening. Whether or not the barrier had any part to play in this weekend's tragedy though doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at. I think we had an incident in F1 there last year or the year before, where a car got buried in it. I think it probably should get moved back another 100 metres or so.

There are pictures that show that Hubert's car was in the run off area and well off the track when it was struck by Correa's car, back to my point about cars being able to drive at full speed whilst outside the confines of the track.
Let's also not forget that the pitlane exit from the non-F1 pits, also runs through that area. I have never understood why people thought it would be safer to join after a blind corner atop the Raidillon, than joining the track at Eau Rouge, away from the racing line. That means that even later on in the race, a car that gets out of control up the Raidillon, might hit one that leaves the pits.

That's crazy if true but also separate to the issue at hand.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:57 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Until a full investigation is performed, by trained individuals with access to far more data than us internet armchair pundits can get from a few glimpses from patchy video feeds, it's impossible for any of us to pass any judgement on this specific incident.

However, if it is found that he was deflected back onto the track by the barrier, looking at the area on Google Maps, there is a lot of space to add additional run off out of the exit.

Ultimately, no safety cell or crash structure is going to survive after being T-boned as a speed differential of 150mph, the only thing that can be done is to make sure that there is nothing on the track conditions to increase the odds of this happening. Whether or not the barrier had any part to play in this weekend's tragedy though doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at. I think we had an incident in F1 there last year or the year before, where a car got buried in it. I think it probably should get moved back another 100 metres or so.

There are pictures that show that Hubert's car was in the run off area and well off the track when it was struck by Correa's car, back to my point about cars being able to drive at full speed whilst outside the confines of the track.


Correa had lost his front wing. And looks like he was already out of control.

Given that he didn't appear to attempt to slow down until he saw Hubert's car which by then was far too late, also if he had no steering which took him right and off the track how did he then manage to avoid the barrier by turning away from it, surely after going right and off the track his car then had to turn left to avoid the barrier?


Well he didn't turn left did he? He just went into Hubert. His front wing is definitely off.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:00 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
While we aren't allowed to post videos of the incident I have seen a few online. Hard to say what could be done to prevent it in future to be honest.

What I can piece together from the track side footage:
Spoiler (click to show)


Honestly it simply appears to be a combination of the speed and the unsighted nature of the corner meaning drivers can only react once they get over the crest of the hill.

I don't think extending the run off to be longer as shown in that picture above would have helped, if the run off was wider there's a good chance Hubert wouldn't have been thrown back into the firing line of other cars though, so maybe that's something worth looking at but with a lack of visibility until you get within a hundred metres of any stranded cars there there's always going to be an increased risk of an accident like this.


Hubert wasn't really thrown back into the firing line of other cars. He got collected off track by someone of the way to their own accident.

Yes but if it was wider Hubert would have been quite far away from where Correa ended up. You would never mitigate the risk entirely but a wider run off to the right obviously means more space for a car to end up, and less chance of them getting collected by another car going off track.

As I say the main thing seems to be the lack of time for the drivers to react but that's not really changeable. Extending the run off to the right is, and may have helped a little in this instance, how much is hard to say.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:01 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
Tufty wrote:
Raidillon has been permanently modified before (at least, the runoff has) due to major accidents. I believe Luciano Burti skating over the gravel there and burying himself in the tyres had a lot to do with that.
That wasn't at the Raidillon Tufty, but at the entry to Blanchimont.

Tufty wrote:
I think the only safety changes that need to be made involve moving that barrier so that it no longer deflects cars back onto the circuit
If I interpreted the footage correctly, it wasn't the barrier that deflected the car back onto the track, but being hit by a following car. There's only so much you can do by enlarging run-offs.

My main recommendation would be to increase respect for the danger in motorsport, for the specifics of one of the greatest corner complexes in the world, and to stop increasing downforce in the silly pursuit of meaningless track and lap records. Not that this is necessarily relevant to F2, or this specific accident I admit.


This was considered a classic combination of corners before they developed ground effects to suck the cars to the road. It can now be taken flat out by F1 cars. A reduction of cornering speed can turn a lot of corners that are now 'kinks' in the road, back into corners again. F1 is now faster, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is better - it might have better racing with less downforce/cornering speeds. People have got used to the speed that corners can be taken now, but that can reduce the options when an accident starts to unfold.

I have seen a simulation which suggested that Alesi's car had slid off the track to the left at the top of Eau Rouge and slid back onto the track but continued very slowly, causing others to slow and that led to one car losing control and hitting the barrier to the right.

If a car does go off the road at the top of Eau Rouge and hits the barrier to the left and then blocks the track out of sight of all the cars streaming up the hill, how will they prevent them cresting the hill and piling into the accident? Could they put some sort of signal that a marshal can trigger to tell all the drivers to slow because there is an accident just over the hill?


Last edited by babararacucudada on Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:03 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Until a full investigation is performed, by trained individuals with access to far more data than us internet armchair pundits can get from a few glimpses from patchy video feeds, it's impossible for any of us to pass any judgement on this specific incident.

However, if it is found that he was deflected back onto the track by the barrier, looking at the area on Google Maps, there is a lot of space to add additional run off out of the exit.

Ultimately, no safety cell or crash structure is going to survive after being T-boned as a speed differential of 150mph, the only thing that can be done is to make sure that there is nothing on the track conditions to increase the odds of this happening. Whether or not the barrier had any part to play in this weekend's tragedy though doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at. I think we had an incident in F1 there last year or the year before, where a car got buried in it. I think it probably should get moved back another 100 metres or so.

There are pictures that show that Hubert's car was in the run off area and well off the track when it was struck by Correa's car, back to my point about cars being able to drive at full speed whilst outside the confines of the track.


Correa had lost his front wing. And looks like he was already out of control.

Given that he didn't appear to attempt to slow down until he saw Hubert's car which by then was far too late, also if he had no steering which took him right and off the track how did he then manage to avoid the barrier by turning away from it, surely after going right and off the track his car then had to turn left to avoid the barrier?


Well he didn't turn left did he? He just went into Hubert. His front wing is definitely off.

I'm trying to envisage that if his car is out of control and has turned right and off the track, if it continues to turn right how it makes it to Huberts car?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 12:09 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Tufty wrote:
Raidillon has been permanently modified before (at least, the runoff has) due to major accidents. I believe Luciano Burti skating over the gravel there and burying himself in the tyres had a lot to do with that.
That wasn't at the Raidillon Tufty, but at the entry to Blanchimont.

Tufty wrote:
I think the only safety changes that need to be made involve moving that barrier so that it no longer deflects cars back onto the circuit
If I interpreted the footage correctly, it wasn't the barrier that deflected the car back onto the track, but being hit by a following car. There's only so much you can do by enlarging run-offs.

My main recommendation would be to increase respect for the danger in motorsport, for the specifics of one of the greatest corner complexes in the world, and to stop increasing downforce in the silly pursuit of meaningless track and lap records. Not that this is necessarily relevant to F2, or this specific accident I admit.


This was considered a classic combination of corners before they developed ground effects to suck the cars to the road. It can now be taken flat out by F1 cars. A reduction of cornering speed can turn a lot of corners that are now 'kinks' in the road, back into corners again. People have got used to the speed that corners can be taken now, but that can reduce the options when an accident starts to unfold.

I have seen a simulation which suggested that Alesi's car had slid off the track to the left at the top of Eau Rouge and slid back onto the track but continued very slowly, causing others to slow and that led to one car losing control and hitting the barrier to the right.

If a car does go off the road at the top of Eau Rouge and hits the barrier to the left and then blocks the track out of sight of all the cars streaming up the hill, how will they prevent them cresting the hill and piling into the accident? Could they put some sort of signal that a marshal can trigger to tell all the drivers to slow because there is an accident just over the hill?

May be a silly/unworkable idea what about a screen at the top of Raidillon for the drivers which shows real time footage of the top of the hill. You wouldn't expect drivers to watch it closely obviously but they would be able to see it in their peripheral vision as they go up the hill and have an idea of whats going to be facing them over the top. It would also mean they don't have to wait on the reaction time of marshals start waving yellow flags. Which could prove vital at a race start.

Are there any other extremely high speed unsighted corners used where that could be useful?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:01 pm 
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babararacucudada wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Tufty wrote:
Raidillon has been permanently modified before (at least, the runoff has) due to major accidents. I believe Luciano Burti skating over the gravel there and burying himself in the tyres had a lot to do with that.
That wasn't at the Raidillon Tufty, but at the entry to Blanchimont.

Tufty wrote:
I think the only safety changes that need to be made involve moving that barrier so that it no longer deflects cars back onto the circuit
If I interpreted the footage correctly, it wasn't the barrier that deflected the car back onto the track, but being hit by a following car. There's only so much you can do by enlarging run-offs.

My main recommendation would be to increase respect for the danger in motorsport, for the specifics of one of the greatest corner complexes in the world, and to stop increasing downforce in the silly pursuit of meaningless track and lap records. Not that this is necessarily relevant to F2, or this specific accident I admit.


This was considered a classic combination of corners before they developed ground effects to suck the cars to the road. It can now be taken flat out by F1 cars. A reduction of cornering speed can turn a lot of corners that are now 'kinks' in the road, back into corners again. F1 is now faster, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is better - it might have better racing with less downforce/cornering speeds. People have got used to the speed that corners can be taken now, but that can reduce the options when an accident starts to unfold.

I have seen a simulation which suggested that Alesi's car had slid off the track to the left at the top of Eau Rouge and slid back onto the track but continued very slowly, causing others to slow and that led to one car losing control and hitting the barrier to the right.

If a car does go off the road at the top of Eau Rouge and hits the barrier to the left and then blocks the track out of sight of all the cars streaming up the hill, how will they prevent them cresting the hill and piling into the accident? Could they put some sort of signal that a marshal can trigger to tell all the drivers to slow because there is an accident just over the hill?
Double yellows. With of the course the obligation to actually react appropriately. Remember Zanardi's accident? Senna didn't react as required and wasn't even punished.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:05 pm 
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I'm still none the wiser as to how Correa ended up where he did. There's quite an interesting analysis of the accident on You Tube posted by No Subject where, if you slow the video down to 50 % at the 1:30 mark & pause it at 1:33, it can clearly be seen that Correa's wing, on the left side at least, is still attached.

pokerman wrote:
Indeed so can we say that a driver choosing to drive flat out in a run off area is actually a fault of the track?

I suppose we have to find out why Correa was there in the first place. Do we yet know why he was there? Reports say he was taking evasive action, but to what? Was there debris on the track from Alesi's car that he had to dodge? Was it the same debris that caused Hubert to spin off?

He may have been there as a result of the high speed, unsighted nature of the complex.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:30 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
May be a silly/unworkable idea what about a screen at the top of Raidillon for the drivers which shows real time footage of the top of the hill. You wouldn't expect drivers to watch it closely obviously but they would be able to see it in their peripheral vision as they go up the hill and have an idea of whats going to be facing them over the top. It would also mean they don't have to wait on the reaction time of marshals start waving yellow flags. Which could prove vital at a race start.

Are there any other extremely high speed unsighted corners used where that could be useful?


Not sure diverting the drivers attention towards a video screen while negotiating Eau Rouge / Radillon would be the safest thing in the world.

Now I don't think there'd be anything that could give sufficient warning to following drivers that there's been a big accident ahead, the cars just cover too much ground too quickly over a blind brow, but, I suppose, If they really want to do something to emphasize a bad incident at that spot, could probably do something like this with flashing yellow lights similar to the lights at the side of the track now.

Image
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTpemTtgwY0yvQSvWTeOutwmyCGVXvaKcHsTzJVR0Ygsben42UM

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:44 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
May be a silly/unworkable idea what about a screen at the top of Raidillon for the drivers which shows real time footage of the top of the hill. You wouldn't expect drivers to watch it closely obviously but they would be able to see it in their peripheral vision as they go up the hill and have an idea of whats going to be facing them over the top. It would also mean they don't have to wait on the reaction time of marshals start waving yellow flags. Which could prove vital at a race start.

Are there any other extremely high speed unsighted corners used where that could be useful?


Not sure diverting the drivers attention towards a video screen while negotiating Eau Rouge / Radillon would be the safest thing in the world.

Now I don't think there'd be anything that could give sufficient warning to following drivers that there's been a big accident ahead, the cars just cover too much ground too quickly over a blind brow, but, I suppose, If they really want to do something to emphasize a bad incident at that spot, could probably do something like this with flashing yellow lights similar to the lights at the side of the track now.

Image
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTpemTtgwY0yvQSvWTeOutwmyCGVXvaKcHsTzJVR0Ygsben42UM

Interesting idea, as soon as you see Alesi's car spinning put on the yellows.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 2:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
May be a silly/unworkable idea what about a screen at the top of Raidillon for the drivers which shows real time footage of the top of the hill. You wouldn't expect drivers to watch it closely obviously but they would be able to see it in their peripheral vision as they go up the hill and have an idea of whats going to be facing them over the top. It would also mean they don't have to wait on the reaction time of marshals start waving yellow flags. Which could prove vital at a race start.

Are there any other extremely high speed unsighted corners used where that could be useful?


Not sure diverting the drivers attention towards a video screen while negotiating Eau Rouge / Radillon would be the safest thing in the world.

Now I don't think there'd be anything that could give sufficient warning to following drivers that there's been a big accident ahead, the cars just cover too much ground too quickly over a blind brow, but, I suppose, If they really want to do something to emphasize a bad incident at that spot, could probably do something like this with flashing yellow lights similar to the lights at the side of the track now.

Image
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTpemTtgwY0yvQSvWTeOutwmyCGVXvaKcHsTzJVR0Ygsben42UM

Interesting idea, as soon as you see Alesi's car spinning put on the yellows.


It's such a unique complex that I think it needs a unique approach if we're to keep it in it's current configuration.

If I was going to run with something like this, i'd maybe have 1 at Eau Rouge, another at the top of Radillon & maybe another a bit further along the Kemmel straight. I'd have a single marshal with a

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https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcSgzAisCWMXu31Z3umegW29ZoMIuNmNCWcHx9e8ofHNoteq3Czt

who's sole purpose was to whack that button as soon as someone left the circuit. Nothing else.

I'd then instruct all the drivers that the activation of those lights mean all racing is to cease intermediately & cars must maintain position at a very slow speed. Anyone who doesn't comply with this instruction, immediate black flag.

Having said that, I still have serious doubts these would've helped in any way in this accident.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 3:04 pm 
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Only problem with yellow lights is that drivers will only slow down a little bit, unless they know how bad it is, that would probably still help though.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:58 pm 
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On my mobile so I’ve not got the luxury of reading the whole thread, but to me they now *have* to make modifications. This tragedy would’ve most likely been avoided by having deeper run off areas so that the likelihood of a car being spat back towards/onto the track was a lot lower. It might even have meant the accident was limited to Alesi and Alesi alone. Even if Alesi still comes back into the path of Hubert then a deeper run off area to the right could’ve prevented Hubert from ending up in Correa’s path.

There are ways of keeping the corner as it is whilst also improving the safety. And it has to be done.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 6:30 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
May be a silly/unworkable idea what about a screen at the top of Raidillon for the drivers which shows real time footage of the top of the hill. You wouldn't expect drivers to watch it closely obviously but they would be able to see it in their peripheral vision as they go up the hill and have an idea of whats going to be facing them over the top. It would also mean they don't have to wait on the reaction time of marshals start waving yellow flags. Which could prove vital at a race start.

Are there any other extremely high speed unsighted corners used where that could be useful?


Spotters.

If a team can devote many people towards the preparation of the car, they should be able to locate a few around the track, give them radios, and at any instant of trouble, they are directly in the driver's ear, giving sage advice. Amazing concept, using the team radios for safety.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:55 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Only problem with yellow lights is that drivers will only slow down a little bit, unless they know how bad it is, that would probably still help though.


Well basically if the lights are on, consider it potentially very bad or very dangerous.

As I said above, that complex of corners is now very unique in F1 &, if we're all being honest, due to the high speed, blind exit, & lack of run off area, it's an extremely dangerous piece of tarmac, but none of us, me included, want it changed.

I think a unique situation needs a unique approach & I don't believe it's a single fix issue. It could be a combination of things need to be done.

With these lights, it should be made crystal clear to the drivers that if those lights are going berserk, that means there is a dangerous situation unfolding over the top of that hill & they MUST slow down & use caution. Because of the nature of the corners, i'd even go so far as to say those lights should be treated higher than double waved yellow flags but not quite a red flag situation.

The light gantry would be clearly visible on the run down to Eau Rouge so drivers should have ample time to react. I think they'd fully grasp, especially after the weekend, the potential outcome if the lights are ignored. The standard yellow flag lights situated back up towards La Source would denote the start of the slow down, no overtaking area.

They may not necessarily be used if a cars been parked up due to a mechanical issue, standard yellow's could sort that. They'd mainly be used in a situation where there's been an accident or even in the situation where lets say oil has been dropped on the road from an engine blowing. This way the drivers should understand that if the lights were on, it's a situation that is potentially very, very serious.
Blinky McSquinty wrote:

Spotters.

If a team can devote many people towards the preparation of the car, they should be able to locate a few around the track, give them radios, and at any instant of trouble, they are directly in the driver's ear, giving sage advice. Amazing concept, using the team radios for safety.

Yeah I can see the merit in that though i'd probably lean towards an FIA official being at the corner with the ability to have radio contact with all drivers instead of each team having their own spotters.

That way the directive would be consistent to all drivers. The message would be exactly the same & it'd be a message directly from the governing body.

I suppose you could even have the same official in charge of activating the lights plus giving the verbal command.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:21 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
May be a silly/unworkable idea what about a screen at the top of Raidillon for the drivers which shows real time footage of the top of the hill. You wouldn't expect drivers to watch it closely obviously but they would be able to see it in their peripheral vision as they go up the hill and have an idea of whats going to be facing them over the top. It would also mean they don't have to wait on the reaction time of marshals start waving yellow flags. Which could prove vital at a race start.

Are there any other extremely high speed unsighted corners used where that could be useful?


Spotters.

If a team can devote many people towards the preparation of the car, they should be able to locate a few around the track, give them radios, and at any instant of trouble, they are directly in the driver's ear, giving sage advice. Amazing concept, using the team radios for safety.


I don't think the time needed to convey an instruction to the driver would help. Hit the button and the lights are on in less than a second. At the speed they are going every tenth of a second matters.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 02, 2019 11:20 pm 
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The issue is that accidents in this section of track tend to follow one another quite closely in how and why they occur and how the car reacts to the barrier on impact.

Magnussen had a VERY similar impact on that very section of track but the barrier held his car right at the point of impact.
Hubert's cat bounced back a bit and Correa, for whatever reason veered off track as well and Hubert's car came to a halt directly in his path.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SGoIa5xq74

The ONLY fix to eliminate the possibility of this kind is indeed a button or switch as stated above, but not to activate lights, but to activate and initiate a deceleration process within the cars themselves whereby as soon as the switch is pressed, the cars no longer accelerate and apply braking according to what the FIA mandate is a safe speed. If actuated across the board consistently, everyone's rate of slowdown will be near identical and drivers will not be able to resume accelerating until after the stewards decide it's safe to do so.

I've spoken about this before and no one has done it but since McLaren provide all the controller units for all teams, they can create the code/sequence to implement and deploy it effective immediately.

There shouldn't be any delay because discussions take too long and the next race is just around the corner. Netter to ACT NOW and let the pencil pushers decide later if they wish to continue as is or try a different system.

Soemthing else to consider are gravel traps because even though cars may have flipped over here and there, those incidents were few and far in between and overall gravel traps kept cars from going anywhere once beached.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:05 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Until a full investigation is performed, by trained individuals with access to far more data than us internet armchair pundits can get from a few glimpses from patchy video feeds, it's impossible for any of us to pass any judgement on this specific incident.

However, if it is found that he was deflected back onto the track by the barrier, looking at the area on Google Maps, there is a lot of space to add additional run off out of the exit.

Ultimately, no safety cell or crash structure is going to survive after being T-boned as a speed differential of 150mph, the only thing that can be done is to make sure that there is nothing on the track conditions to increase the odds of this happening. Whether or not the barrier had any part to play in this weekend's tragedy though doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at. I think we had an incident in F1 there last year or the year before, where a car got buried in it. I think it probably should get moved back another 100 metres or so.


It may not me that east. Remember, it's very hilly around there and it drops downhill considerably across to the area of the track towards Pouhon. Therefore, it may be that to move barriers back a decent distance could me impossible.

Image
Screenshot of Google Maps

This is what I am talking about removing, not 100m to the right. The 3D view on Google is not that detailed, but it looks like it should be possible.

Are we allowing cars to race whilst off the track then all in the name of safety?

I didn't realise those trees were where the rules on track limits were written.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:20 am 
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I've driven Spa, and Eau Rouge/Radillion and for me, despite doing some 70-80 mph less than an F1 car on approach, for me (and virtually every other class bar F1) it is still very much a corner. You need to remember that a lot of racing happens at Spa that isn't F1, and it will be one of the busiest of the F1 tracks in terms of other events throughout the year.

If you've never been - things you don't get a full appreciation of from TV is how steep it is, and how sharp the corner complex actually is.

With regards to expanding run offs, I'm not sure of what can be done, as said, you don't get an impression of just how steep it is there and the trees do fall away quite sharply on the right side of the track. I question the wisdom of the pit lane exit there too.

I do agree that if it could be modified to widen the run offs, it should be explored.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:14 am 
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this analysis suggest gravel trap may have led to Correa easing off. not embedding the video out of respect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TnqP_uX1Ks


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:35 am 
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trento wrote:
this analysis suggest gravel trap may have led to Correa easing off. not embedding the video out of respect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TnqP_uX1Ks


From what I see, both Correa and Hubert did not manage to slow down.

While Hubert trajectory is pretty obvious, a flick of the steering wheel to avoid the car in front and straight to the barriers, Correa's trajectory is odd to say the least.

I guess these are the worst cases. The toughest part of the car coming at full speed hitting the weakest part of a standing car.

Had Hubert's car still had the rear wheel in place and at a different angle, probably Correa would have taken off into the trees and he would have been the most hurt.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:55 pm 
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The run-off tarmac area will be replaced by gravel trap. A good decision which should've been implemented earlier.

https://f1i.com/news/353011-spa-to-replace-raidillon-tarmac-run-off-with-gravel-trap.html

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:24 pm 
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I've been calling for an end to paved run-offs for several years now for this very reason and have even written the FIA with zero response ever.
Gravel traps force drivers to be tidier and abide by track limits whereas run-off gives them this sense of screw it I'm going to exceed limits as much and as often as I can until I get penalized and the racing is lesser because of it. I find it preposterous that ALL drivers whine and complain that the speed of the track prevent's them from adhering to track bounds, yet if you place a wall there they have no issue staying within track limits.

It's an argument that has always had ZERO merit. As James Hunt said about Rene Arnoux on live television… It's Total BS.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:11 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I've been calling for an end to paved run-offs for several years now for this very reason and have even written the FIA with zero response ever.
Gravel traps force drivers to be tidier and abide by track limits whereas run-off gives them this sense of screw it I'm going to exceed limits as much and as often as I can until I get penalized and the racing is lesser because of it. I find it preposterous that ALL drivers whine and complain that the speed of the track prevent's them from adhering to track bounds, yet if you place a wall there they have no issue staying within track limits.

It's an argument that has always had ZERO merit. As James Hunt said about Rene Arnoux on live television… It's Total BS.


I get your point, and it is correct if you only consider intent. While some incidents like the one on Saturday might be prevented, it might just open the doors to tragic events happening when something goes wrong on the car.

I really don't know what could be done to prevent accidents like this from happening. Probably the only solution is to take it corner by corner and find a solution. Most likely 2 rows of TECPRO there would have made the car get stuck in place, and not come back.

Extending the track there from what I understand is not possible without further alteration. From what I understand, there is a rather steep hill there. There is no problem in extending another 35-40m, using pillars, but you would probably get some issues with environmentalists, as you'd have to cut some trees.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:09 pm 
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paul_gmb wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I've been calling for an end to paved run-offs for several years now for this very reason and have even written the FIA with zero response ever.
Gravel traps force drivers to be tidier and abide by track limits whereas run-off gives them this sense of screw it I'm going to exceed limits as much and as often as I can until I get penalized and the racing is lesser because of it. I find it preposterous that ALL drivers whine and complain that the speed of the track prevent's them from adhering to track bounds, yet if you place a wall there they have no issue staying within track limits.

It's an argument that has always had ZERO merit. As James Hunt said about Rene Arnoux on live television… It's Total BS.


I get your point, and it is correct if you only consider intent. While some incidents like the one on Saturday might be prevented, it might just open the doors to tragic events happening when something goes wrong on the car.

I really don't know what could be done to prevent accidents like this from happening. Probably the only solution is to take it corner by corner and find a solution. Most likely 2 rows of TECPRO there would have made the car get stuck in place, and not come back.

Extending the track there from what I understand is not possible without further alteration. From what I understand, there is a rather steep hill there. There is no problem in extending another 35-40m, using pillars, but you would probably get some issues with environmentalists, as you'd have to cut some trees.

I've been watching F1 for over 40 years now and I can't recall a single incident involving a gravel trap that turned out to be deadly in any capacity, outside of bring the day to an end for those who make the mistake and end up in them. There have been countless rollovers but no one that I can remember has been seriously injured "because" of the gravel trap itself.

Of note, Greg Moores fatal accident was freak in that just the right number of things happened in just the right order at the exact perfect time to cause his car to clip that pathway, but it was otherwise grass and he was the 2nd car to slide. Richie Hearn slide right down the same embankment on that very turn, but he was going a tad slower and his car turned just enough so his wheels would roll over it. Had there been a gravel trap there, the cars would've been slowed enough to prevent the tragic end that met Greg Moore, or perhaps beached then altogether. Either way, Gravel Traps have a proven track record (no pun intended) of making things safer when drivers get it wrong. I'd much rather see a car beached with the drivers walking away than seeing them die thanks to the ingenious idea of installing tarmac on the outside so drivers can temp fate further because the consequences of doing so won't end their day.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:49 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
On my mobile so I’ve not got the luxury of reading the whole thread, but to me they now *have* to make modifications. This tragedy would’ve most likely been avoided by having deeper run off areas so that the likelihood of a car being spat back towards/onto the track was a lot lower. It might even have meant the accident was limited to Alesi and Alesi alone. Even if Alesi still comes back into the path of Hubert then a deeper run off area to the right could’ve prevented Hubert from ending up in Correa’s path.

There are ways of keeping the corner as it is whilst also improving the safety. And it has to be done.

I'm not sure that Alesi's car span off the track also Hubert's car did not end up back on the track.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:06 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I've been calling for an end to paved run-offs for several years now for this very reason and have even written the FIA with zero response ever.
Gravel traps force drivers to be tidier and abide by track limits whereas run-off gives them this sense of screw it I'm going to exceed limits as much and as often as I can until I get penalized and the racing is lesser because of it. I find it preposterous that ALL drivers whine and complain that the speed of the track prevent's them from adhering to track bounds, yet if you place a wall there they have no issue staying within track limits.

It's an argument that has always had ZERO merit. As James Hunt said about Rene Arnoux on live television… It's Total BS.

Indeed tarmac run off areas do not encourage drivers to slow down, Hubert had crashed and was off the track but still exposed to a car hitting him at full speed.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:08 pm 
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paul_gmb wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I've been calling for an end to paved run-offs for several years now for this very reason and have even written the FIA with zero response ever.
Gravel traps force drivers to be tidier and abide by track limits whereas run-off gives them this sense of screw it I'm going to exceed limits as much and as often as I can until I get penalized and the racing is lesser because of it. I find it preposterous that ALL drivers whine and complain that the speed of the track prevent's them from adhering to track bounds, yet if you place a wall there they have no issue staying within track limits.

It's an argument that has always had ZERO merit. As James Hunt said about Rene Arnoux on live television… It's Total BS.


I get your point, and it is correct if you only consider intent. While some incidents like the one on Saturday might be prevented, it might just open the doors to tragic events happening when something goes wrong on the car.

I really don't know what could be done to prevent accidents like this from happening. Probably the only solution is to take it corner by corner and find a solution. Most likely 2 rows of TECPRO there would have made the car get stuck in place, and not come back.

Extending the track there from what I understand is not possible without further alteration. From what I understand, there is a rather steep hill there. There is no problem in extending another 35-40m, using pillars, but you would probably get some issues with environmentalists, as you'd have to cut some trees.

Again Hubert's car did not come back onto the track.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I've been calling for an end to paved run-offs for several years now for this very reason and have even written the FIA with zero response ever.
Gravel traps force drivers to be tidier and abide by track limits whereas run-off gives them this sense of screw it I'm going to exceed limits as much and as often as I can until I get penalized and the racing is lesser because of it. I find it preposterous that ALL drivers whine and complain that the speed of the track prevent's them from adhering to track bounds, yet if you place a wall there they have no issue staying within track limits.

It's an argument that has always had ZERO merit. As James Hunt said about Rene Arnoux on live television… It's Total BS.

Indeed tarmac run off areas do not encourage drivers to slow down, Hubert had crashed and was off the track but still exposed to a car hitting him at full speed.

Precisely.

People fail to realize that a gravel trap there would have slowed all cars going off significantly enough that perhaps Hubert doesn't suffer life ending injuries.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:03 am 
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With all due respect, putting gravel there would maybe prevent such an event, but it opens doors to other events.

Runoffs with tarmac are really useful in a lot of situations. They have been introduced for safety reasons in the first place.

Regarding deaths on tarmac vs gravel, I don't know if there's a direct correlation. Because tarmac runoffs have been introduced in the last 20-25 years, most of the deaths have occurred in areas with gravel.

I am not saying that gravel caused them, I am just saying that a statistical comparison would not make sense, as the cars have been much safer in the past years and it coincides with the introduction of tarmac runoffs.

Unfortunately, this kind of incident could happen just as well on the track with a car spinning.

I don't really know what to say. Weren't tarmac run-offs introduced precisely because the cars would slow down? Cars with wheels on I mean.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 5:22 am 
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The problem isn't the tarmac runoff per se - it's the liberties drivers routinely take with them. We had a similar problem in 2014 with drivers speeding through double yellows, which led to Bianchi's tragic accident. The FIA needs to do something about drivers just flooring it through the runoff in case of an accident.

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