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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:23 am 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

Vettel was forced pretty much fully onto and over the kerb so Hamilton didn't really leave enough space. It is kind of marginal but a bit naughty from Lewis. The fact that Vettel lost traction shows that he was unfairly forced onto a disadvantageous part of the track; the left side of his car and wheels go beyond the kerbing and onto the run off so I don't think he was given quite enough space.

He was still on the track, the kerb is the track otherwise drivers consistently abuse track limits.


I think you have to have at least one tyre always between the white lines and the kerbs are past the white lines and regarded as not part of the track officially. Seb was forced fully over the white lines as that is where his car went just before he lost control.

In that case every qualifying lap should have been annulled and every driver penalised in the race for consistently abusing track limits, the white line I believe only applies to the inside of corners?

I think you need to have a think about what you just said?


I do not need to think about what I just said.

Curbs are an extension of the race track, they are not part of the track. Yes track limits are terribly enforced, this is why drivers get away with it over and over, but it doesn't mean that it is right.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:23 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Just consider what you are suggesting for a minute:

1) You are saying F1 racing drivers should go slower in the the first corner of a grand prix and give room to all around them. The fastest drivers in the world are never going to do that they want to race in addition they would need swivel heads to do that. Looking backwards is a nice idea but they are going to assume that no-one is going to do anything daft.

2) That the day after they lost a fellow driver an ex world champion deliberately caused an accident.

Verstappen must have been in a hyped up mood because to drive to the next turn at close to racing speed with broken steering suspension is particularly sensible, especially when it is so close to the turn where the accident happened the day before.

I think it is a racing incident, Verstappen was daft to go there, Kimi turned in not expecting a dive down the inside. Even if MV had made the corner I'm not sure where he would have ended up!

Indeed Verstappen did the exact same thing in 2016 at the same corner, diving on the inside of 2 cars and how did that turn out for him?


There in 2016 it was Vettel's fault, moving from the outside of the track to the middle of the track and squeezing two cars to his inside, (Kimi and Max). Bad driving from Vettel, he should have stayed to the outside of the track and no crash would have happened there.

For my part I'm happy to consider it a racing incident, my stake in this is to question the level of risk that Verstappen took.


2016 was just as avoidable as 2019.

The risk only comes about due to the inconsistent application of the rules and drivers getting away with driving badly.

If Max could be confident that Kimi would be forced to give him space or Kimi would get a really severe penalty if he didn't, then there is zero risk for Max to attempt to pass Kimi there. Unfortunately because those conditions don't actually exist due to poor stewarding, Max trying to pass there was a small risk.

Drivers being penalised doesn't change the outcome for Verstappen, he took too much risk, also it's a bit like pot, kettle, black when determining that drivers are defending their positions badly in respect to how Verstappen often tends to defend his position.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:26 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
It's pretty much a carbon copy of Australia 1994 actually. Kimi's car even tilts up onto two wheels like Michael's Benetton did, and Max's front-left wishbone gets damaged like on Damon's car. Hearing Brundle saying it was Max's fault in the highlights is absolutely laughable when Damon Hill was deemed innocent for doing the same thing all those years ago.

Schumacher had just hit a wall and damaged his car which Hill was unaware of, Schumacher knew he was done for so it was his intent to take Hill out.


We don't know with any certainty Schumacher's or Kimi's intention but their cars took the same naughty trajectory into the inside car... so both were wrong imo.

Two completely differently scenarios, unlike Schumacher, Kimi was driving at racing speed, also Schumacher tried to repeat the trick against Villenueve in Jerez 1997 for which he got disqualified from the WDC, there was no benefit to Kimi in crashing both himself and Verstappen out of the race.


I was mainly likening the two scenarios due to the physical impacts that the cars took due to the coming togethers occurring in the same manner, (albeit for different stakes and one likely deliberate, the other likely incompetence).

Yeah, so Kimi instead fell foul of the one that Vettel did in Britain. What was the rule that Vettel broke when he crashed into Max a few races ago?

Vettel punted Verstappen from the rear, he was never alongside.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:27 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

Vettel was forced pretty much fully onto and over the kerb so Hamilton didn't really leave enough space. It is kind of marginal but a bit naughty from Lewis. The fact that Vettel lost traction shows that he was unfairly forced onto a disadvantageous part of the track; the left side of his car and wheels go beyond the kerbing and onto the run off so I don't think he was given quite enough space.

He was still on the track, the kerb is the track otherwise drivers consistently abuse track limits.


I think you have to have at least one tyre always between the white lines and the kerbs are past the white lines and regarded as not part of the track officially. Seb was forced fully over the white lines as that is where his car went just before he lost control.

In that case every qualifying lap should have been annulled and every driver penalised in the race for consistently abusing track limits, the white line I believe only applies to the inside of corners?

I think you need to have a think about what you just said?


I do not need to think about what I just said.

Curbs are an extension of the race track, they are not part of the track. Yes track limits are terribly enforced, this is why drivers get away with it over and over, but it doesn't mean that it is right.

So we just make an exception for Hamilton, he alone should be penalised?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:31 am 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

There in 2016 it was Vettel's fault, moving from the outside of the track to the middle of the track and squeezing two cars to his inside, (Kimi and Max). Bad driving from Vettel, he should have stayed to the outside of the track and no crash would have happened there.

For my part I'm happy to consider it a racing incident, my stake in this is to question the level of risk that Verstappen took.


2016 was just as avoidable as 2019.

The risk only comes about due to the inconsistent application of the rules and drivers getting away with driving badly.

If Max could be confident that Kimi would be forced to give him space or Kimi would get a really severe penalty if he didn't, then there is zero risk for Max to attempt to pass Kimi there. Unfortunately because those conditions don't actually exist due to poor stewarding, Max trying to pass there was a small risk.

Drivers being penalised doesn't change the outcome for Verstappen, he took too much risk, also it's a bit like pot, kettle, black when determining that drivers are defending their positions badly in respect to how Verstappen often tends to defend his position.


It's only a small risk, the driver in the middle of the track won't always turn in on you 100% of the time. Plenty of Belgium Grand Prix's have no first corner crashes like this. Look at 2017 and 2018 in Belgium, there was no squeezing like what Kimi did. Risk has to be matched with probability remember. If Kimi didn't turn in to him, no one would be saying ''Whoa, risky pass at turn 1 by Max there, what an idiot!'' You are being heavily biased by the fact that on this occasion Max got unluckily done over by the car in front, in reality the risk is small that you get squeezed there so he was unlucky and should have gone for the gap and that is what he did.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:33 am 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

I think you have to have at least one tyre always between the white lines and the kerbs are past the white lines and regarded as not part of the track officially. Seb was forced fully over the white lines as that is where his car went just before he lost control.

In that case every qualifying lap should have been annulled and every driver penalised in the race for consistently abusing track limits, the white line I believe only applies to the inside of corners?

I think you need to have a think about what you just said?


I do not need to think about what I just said.

Curbs are an extension of the race track, they are not part of the track. Yes track limits are terribly enforced, this is why drivers get away with it over and over, but it doesn't mean that it is right.

So we just make an exception for Hamilton, he alone should be penalised?


No, Hamilton should be penalised as per the rules and all the other drivers abusing track limits should be penalised too. I think in qualifying there is a process of deleting lap times and someone had a time deleted a couple of races ago, but I can't say how good the stewards are at policing this qualifying issue of getting all four wheels on the curbs.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:35 am 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

We don't know with any certainty Schumacher's or Kimi's intention but their cars took the same naughty trajectory into the inside car... so both were wrong imo.

Two completely differently scenarios, unlike Schumacher, Kimi was driving at racing speed, also Schumacher tried to repeat the trick against Villenueve in Jerez 1997 for which he got disqualified from the WDC, there was no benefit to Kimi in crashing both himself and Verstappen out of the race.


I was mainly likening the two scenarios due to the physical impacts that the cars took due to the coming togethers occurring in the same manner, (albeit for different stakes and one likely deliberate, the other likely incompetence).

Yeah, so Kimi instead fell foul of the one that Vettel did in Britain. What was the rule that Vettel broke when he crashed into Max a few races ago?

Vettel punted Verstappen from the rear, he was never alongside.


It doesn't matter. Please quote to me the rule that Vettel broke. He accidentally took a driver out and Kimi accidentally took a driver out. Whatever rule Vettel broke in Britain, Kimi broke in Belgium.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:50 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
It's pretty much a carbon copy of Australia 1994 actually. Kimi's car even tilts up onto two wheels like Michael's Benetton did, and Max's front-left wishbone gets damaged like on Damon's car. Hearing Brundle saying it was Max's fault in the highlights is absolutely laughable when Damon Hill was deemed innocent for doing the same thing all those years ago.

Interesting. I was listening to the race no the radio and the commentary team there blamed kimi for slicing across max. Watching TV highlights later on, that commentary team said racing incident / possibly Max at fault.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:10 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

There in 2016 it was Vettel's fault, moving from the outside of the track to the middle of the track and squeezing two cars to his inside, (Kimi and Max). Bad driving from Vettel, he should have stayed to the outside of the track and no crash would have happened there.

For my part I'm happy to consider it a racing incident, my stake in this is to question the level of risk that Verstappen took.


2016 was just as avoidable as 2019.

The risk only comes about due to the inconsistent application of the rules and drivers getting away with driving badly.

If Max could be confident that Kimi would be forced to give him space or Kimi would get a really severe penalty if he didn't, then there is zero risk for Max to attempt to pass Kimi there. Unfortunately because those conditions don't actually exist due to poor stewarding, Max trying to pass there was a small risk.

Drivers being penalised doesn't change the outcome for Verstappen, he took too much risk, also it's a bit like pot, kettle, black when determining that drivers are defending their positions badly in respect to how Verstappen often tends to defend his position.


It's only a small risk, the driver in the middle of the track won't always turn in on you 100% of the time. Plenty of Belgium Grand Prix's have no first corner crashes like this. Look at 2017 and 2018 in Belgium, there was no squeezing like what Kimi did. Risk has to be matched with probability remember. If Kimi didn't turn in to him, no one would be saying ''Whoa, risky pass at turn 1 by Max there, what an idiot!'' You are being heavily biased by the fact that on this occasion Max got unluckily done over by the car in front, in reality the risk is small that you get squeezed there so he was unlucky and should have gone for the gap and that is what he did.

See this is the thing that when a collision occurs it's seen as unlucky when the reality is that the more risk you take then it increases the chances of a collision, the most aggressive driver going into that hairpin corner was Verstappen, there is a reason why other drivers would choose not to be that aggressive.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:17 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

I think you have to have at least one tyre always between the white lines and the kerbs are past the white lines and regarded as not part of the track officially. Seb was forced fully over the white lines as that is where his car went just before he lost control.

In that case every qualifying lap should have been annulled and every driver penalised in the race for consistently abusing track limits, the white line I believe only applies to the inside of corners?

I think you need to have a think about what you just said?


I do not need to think about what I just said.

Curbs are an extension of the race track, they are not part of the track. Yes track limits are terribly enforced, this is why drivers get away with it over and over, but it doesn't mean that it is right.

So we just make an exception for Hamilton, he alone should be penalised?


No, Hamilton should be penalised as per the rules and all the other drivers abusing track limits should be penalised too. I think in qualifying there is a process of deleting lap times and someone had a time deleted a couple of races ago, but I can't say how good the stewards are at policing this qualifying issue of getting all four wheels on the curbs.

Going back to track limits you are correct that the white line is the edge of the track even on the exit of corners so you can't go all 4 wheels over the white line, however at Spa I saw cars going beyond the white line with impunity.

In respect to Hamilton I don't believe he even forced Vettel beyond the white line but even then it's immaterial because the stewards set a precedent in Austria that would prevent them from penalising Hamilton, were a driver you are defending in this thread Verstappen hit Leclerc twice before forcing him off the track without penalty.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:20 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

We don't know with any certainty Schumacher's or Kimi's intention but their cars took the same naughty trajectory into the inside car... so both were wrong imo.

Two completely differently scenarios, unlike Schumacher, Kimi was driving at racing speed, also Schumacher tried to repeat the trick against Villenueve in Jerez 1997 for which he got disqualified from the WDC, there was no benefit to Kimi in crashing both himself and Verstappen out of the race.


I was mainly likening the two scenarios due to the physical impacts that the cars took due to the coming togethers occurring in the same manner, (albeit for different stakes and one likely deliberate, the other likely incompetence).

Yeah, so Kimi instead fell foul of the one that Vettel did in Britain. What was the rule that Vettel broke when he crashed into Max a few races ago?

Vettel punted Verstappen from the rear, he was never alongside.


It doesn't matter. Please quote to me the rule that Vettel broke. He accidentally took a driver out and Kimi accidentally took a driver out. Whatever rule Vettel broke in Britain, Kimi broke in Belgium.

How can they possible be compared as being the same when at Silverstone Vettel was the driver behind and at Spa Kimi was the driver in front, if you are looking for like for like penalties then Verstappen should have been penalised at Spa.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:27 pm 
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I am seriously baffled at the posts on here that are equating the rules of engagement in an on track overtake/duel during the race with the first corner following a start. Whether you think Kimi or Max is the one at fault, they are not the same, and equating the incident to Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide requires mental gynastics the likes of which I have not seen before.

As well as it having long been clarified and explicitly stated by race control that the rules of engagement that come into play between cars battling for position do not apply at the start of the race, a only modicum of critical thinking is needed to see why.

When two cars are fighting for the race, the drivers only have one moving target they need to be aware of - the driver they are keeping behind if they are defending, and the driver they are trying to pass if they are the attacker.

In a race start, there are in the middle of a pack of drivers, all moving. While it is easy for us to see from the off board cameras that Max was there, that's not the case inside of the cockpit. For one thing, Max was hidden behind the Racing Point and Kimi would have had no clue he was there until the last second even if he had been looking the right direction. And I reiterate, assuming he was looking in the right place at the right time.

Had Kimi been in a one on one fight with Max then he definitely would have been looking and aware of his position. If Max was making an overtake during the race, then the move was on. In a race start though, with his racing experience Max should be aware that it's impossible for drivers to be aware of what happening in all directions, and when you lunge from behind another car it's almost guaranteed that they don't know you are there. All the other drivers knew this and braked appropriately - Max was the one that didn't, forgetting the age old adage that you can't win the race in the first corner but you can certainly lose it.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:37 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I am seriously baffled at the posts on here that are equating the rules of engagement in an on track overtake/duel during the race with the first corner following a start. Whether you think Kimi or Max is the one at fault, they are not the same, and equating the incident to Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide requires mental gynastics the likes of which I have not seen before.

As well as it having long been clarified and explicitly stated by race control that the rules of engagement that come into play between cars battling for position do not apply at the start of the race, a only modicum of critical thinking is needed to see why.

When two cars are fighting for the race, the drivers only have one moving target they need to be aware of - the driver they are keeping behind if they are defending, and the driver they are trying to pass if they are the attacker.

In a race start, there are in the middle of a pack of drivers, all moving. While it is easy for us to see from the off board cameras that Max was there, that's not the case inside of the cockpit. For one thing, Max was hidden behind the Racing Point and Kimi would have had no clue he was there until the last second even if he had been looking the right direction. And I reiterate, assuming he was looking in the right place at the right time.

Had Kimi been in a one on one fight with Max then he definitely would have been looking and aware of his position. If Max was making an overtake during the race, then the move was on. In a race start though, with his racing experience Max should be aware that it's impossible for drivers to be aware of what happening in all directions, and when you lunge from behind another car it's almost guaranteed that they don't know you are there. All the other drivers knew this and braked appropriately - Max was the one that didn't, forgetting the age old adage that you can't win the race in the first corner but you can certainly lose it.


And if it had been Max on the outside people would be criticizing him for closing the door not knowing if someone was on the inside or not.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:40 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I am seriously baffled at the posts on here that are equating the rules of engagement in an on track overtake/duel during the race with the first corner following a start. Whether you think Kimi or Max is the one at fault, they are not the same, and equating the incident to Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide requires mental gynastics the likes of which I have not seen before.

As well as it having long been clarified and explicitly stated by race control that the rules of engagement that come into play between cars battling for position do not apply at the start of the race, a only modicum of critical thinking is needed to see why.

When two cars are fighting for the race, the drivers only have one moving target they need to be aware of - the driver they are keeping behind if they are defending, and the driver they are trying to pass if they are the attacker.

In a race start, there are in the middle of a pack of drivers, all moving. While it is easy for us to see from the off board cameras that Max was there, that's not the case inside of the cockpit. For one thing, Max was hidden behind the Racing Point and Kimi would have had no clue he was there until the last second even if he had been looking the right direction. And I reiterate, assuming he was looking in the right place at the right time.

Had Kimi been in a one on one fight with Max then he definitely would have been looking and aware of his position. If Max was making an overtake during the race, then the move was on. In a race start though, with his racing experience Max should be aware that it's impossible for drivers to be aware of what happening in all directions, and when you lunge from behind another car it's almost guaranteed that they don't know you are there. All the other drivers knew this and braked appropriately - Max was the one that didn't, forgetting the age old adage that you can't win the race in the first corner but you can certainly lose it.

And if it had been Max on the outside people would be criticizing him for closing the door not knowing if someone was on the inside or not.

tootsie323 wrote:
... I was listening to the race no the radio and the commentary team there blamed kimi for slicing across max....

Not necessarily universally.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 12:46 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I am seriously baffled at the posts on here that are equating the rules of engagement in an on track overtake/duel during the race with the first corner following a start. Whether you think Kimi or Max is the one at fault, they are not the same, and equating the incident to Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide requires mental gynastics the likes of which I have not seen before.

As well as it having long been clarified and explicitly stated by race control that the rules of engagement that come into play between cars battling for position do not apply at the start of the race, a only modicum of critical thinking is needed to see why.

When two cars are fighting for the race, the drivers only have one moving target they need to be aware of - the driver they are keeping behind if they are defending, and the driver they are trying to pass if they are the attacker.

In a race start, there are in the middle of a pack of drivers, all moving. While it is easy for us to see from the off board cameras that Max was there, that's not the case inside of the cockpit. For one thing, Max was hidden behind the Racing Point and Kimi would have had no clue he was there until the last second even if he had been looking the right direction. And I reiterate, assuming he was looking in the right place at the right time.

Had Kimi been in a one on one fight with Max then he definitely would have been looking and aware of his position. If Max was making an overtake during the race, then the move was on. In a race start though, with his racing experience Max should be aware that it's impossible for drivers to be aware of what happening in all directions, and when you lunge from behind another car it's almost guaranteed that they don't know you are there. All the other drivers knew this and braked appropriately - Max was the one that didn't, forgetting the age old adage that you can't win the race in the first corner but you can certainly lose it.


And if it had been Max on the outside people would be criticizing him for closing the door not knowing if someone was on the inside or not.

Would that same scenario have even played out though seeing as no one else chose to be as aggressive as Verstappen?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:12 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I am seriously baffled at the posts on here that are equating the rules of engagement in an on track overtake/duel during the race with the first corner following a start. Whether you think Kimi or Max is the one at fault, they are not the same, and equating the incident to Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide requires mental gynastics the likes of which I have not seen before.

As well as it having long been clarified and explicitly stated by race control that the rules of engagement that come into play between cars battling for position do not apply at the start of the race, a only modicum of critical thinking is needed to see why.

When two cars are fighting for the race, the drivers only have one moving target they need to be aware of - the driver they are keeping behind if they are defending, and the driver they are trying to pass if they are the attacker.

In a race start, there are in the middle of a pack of drivers, all moving. While it is easy for us to see from the off board cameras that Max was there, that's not the case inside of the cockpit. For one thing, Max was hidden behind the Racing Point and Kimi would have had no clue he was there until the last second even if he had been looking the right direction. And I reiterate, assuming he was looking in the right place at the right time.

Had Kimi been in a one on one fight with Max then he definitely would have been looking and aware of his position. If Max was making an overtake during the race, then the move was on. In a race start though, with his racing experience Max should be aware that it's impossible for drivers to be aware of what happening in all directions, and when you lunge from behind another car it's almost guaranteed that they don't know you are there. All the other drivers knew this and braked appropriately - Max was the one that didn't, forgetting the age old adage that you can't win the race in the first corner but you can certainly lose it.


And if it had been Max on the outside people would be criticizing him for closing the door not knowing if someone was on the inside or not.

Would that same scenario have even played out though seeing as no one else chose to be as aggressive as Verstappen?


Didn't they?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:41 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I am seriously baffled at the posts on here that are equating the rules of engagement in an on track overtake/duel during the race with the first corner following a start. Whether you think Kimi or Max is the one at fault, they are not the same, and equating the incident to Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide requires mental gynastics the likes of which I have not seen before.

As well as it having long been clarified and explicitly stated by race control that the rules of engagement that come into play between cars battling for position do not apply at the start of the race, a only modicum of critical thinking is needed to see why.

When two cars are fighting for the race, the drivers only have one moving target they need to be aware of - the driver they are keeping behind if they are defending, and the driver they are trying to pass if they are the attacker.

In a race start, there are in the middle of a pack of drivers, all moving. While it is easy for us to see from the off board cameras that Max was there, that's not the case inside of the cockpit. For one thing, Max was hidden behind the Racing Point and Kimi would have had no clue he was there until the last second even if he had been looking the right direction. And I reiterate, assuming he was looking in the right place at the right time.

Had Kimi been in a one on one fight with Max then he definitely would have been looking and aware of his position. If Max was making an overtake during the race, then the move was on. In a race start though, with his racing experience Max should be aware that it's impossible for drivers to be aware of what happening in all directions, and when you lunge from behind another car it's almost guaranteed that they don't know you are there. All the other drivers knew this and braked appropriately - Max was the one that didn't, forgetting the age old adage that you can't win the race in the first corner but you can certainly lose it.


And if it had been Max on the outside people would be criticizing him for closing the door not knowing if someone was on the inside or not.

Saying that Kimi should have left space because he was unaware whether a driver was there is a valid (albeit flawed) argument. My issue is applying rules for one-on-one dueling with the first corner of the race, which reached the levels beyond self parody by equating it to Adelaide '94.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:09 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
[color=#000057]I am seriously baffled at the posts on here that are equating the rules of engagement in an on track overtake/duel during the race with the first corner following a start. Whether you think Kimi or Max is the one at fault, they are not the same, and equating the incident to Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide requires mental gynastics the likes of which I have not seen before.

As well as it having long been clarified and explicitly stated by race control that the rules of engagement that come into play between cars battling for position do not apply at the start of the race, a only modicum of critical thinking is needed to see why.

Lando Norris is now popular, and now many visit his Twitch stream. And for the last race, it was evident who were the new faces because they over-analyzed and got totally anal on rules and off-tracks. The point is that the focus on rules and minor infractions has become an epidemic for too many Formula One fans. Personally I do not advocate throwing away the rule book, but presently there is too much focus and attention on these rules.

Last year, Vettel was aggressive on lap one, there was a safety car involved, and the pass by Vettel on lap one cemented his run to a win last year.

Everyone is very aware that the best opportunity to make up positions is on lap one. And Verstappen has benefited greatly from doing that in the past.

Image

FFS this is hard core competition with millions at stake, this is not a freaking social club or charity. The drivers are expected to fight, to compete.

Max has been on a bit of a tilt since Hungary. In fact, the day after Hungary Max got a little crazy and did this ...

https://clips.twitch.tv/ZanyDrabInternOSkomodo

Which resulted in a holiday away from iRacing. Of note is Max's dirty defending. He takes the outside going into turn 5, but the instant he notices that attacking car move to the inside, he moves to block that off. That is known as blocking, frowned on in almost every racing series. This is what got so many Formula One drivers steamed when Max first showed up in Formula One.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:24 pm 
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I think it would have been a tall order for Kimi Raikkonen to keep the Alfa Romeo ahead of cars like the McLaren, which is so much better on its tires, and I would have loved to see what Max Verstapppen could have done racing up front with the Mercedes-Benz cars. A podium might have been possible, but we'll never know. That being said, Kimi had no way of knowing Max would put himself in a position where he was utterly reliant on people making room for him who were trying to avoid running into people in front of and alongside themselves. Bottas's right rear wheel wasn't far from Raikkonen's left front corner. Had he known what Max was doing, saving Max' race would have meant making it Bottas' problem.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:26 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
What? This is literally the first comment I have posted about this incident and I said that both drivers got it wrong and it should be chalked up as a racing incident. You take that as me always wanting to blame Max? Honestly the things people say in here are amazing.

As far as what "we want to see"; that is totally irrelevant. Max was not alongside Kimi. He was behind him and he was very aggressive on the brakes into that corner at a very narrow angle. The move wasn't on IMO (and that's what it was - an overtaking attempt). For Max to have gotten through there cleanly, Kimi would have had to let him through in a situation where Max shouldn't have been going for it. It's not always up to the other guy to get out of the way.

I certainly think Kimi would have been better off had he left more space there and he will regret taking the normal racing line the way he did into the first corner here at Spa. It's always a traffic jam there at the start. Max does share some of the blame there though for being too optimistic. You seem to think that Max should be able to be super-aggressive while everyone else should tip toe around to make sure he doesn't hit them. That simply doesn't make sense.


What you are saying doesn't make sense though. You are suggesting that Kimi should have left room, in which case this means that Max wouldn't be driving optimistically by attempting a pass on the inside as he would know that Kimi was correctly giving him space. Why is it optimistic if you are assuming that the other driver will not try to crash into you. Didn't Senna say to Jackie Stewart that if you no longer go for a gap then you are no longer a racing driver. No one holds it against Damon Hill in Australia 1994 for going for a gap on the inside, they hold it against Schumacher for steering across into him like Kimi did to Max in Belgium.

I think you need to start your argument again and base it only on complete logic here.

I don't think it was deliberate from Kimi, I think it was careless and poor driving that he did without thinking and it was easily avoidable, hence a penalty should be given to him. Also Max had enough of his car alongside to be regarded as alongside, otherwise there would not have been such a heavy impact. Are you only counting cars perfectly in alignment to be alongside each other now? I don't think that makes sense.

Nope. I said Kimi would have been better off had he left more space (which is obvious due to the fact that the collision ruined his race). Max would also have been better off had he not tried to lunge there from so far back. You are only looking at this from one side apparently, though I cannot understand why that makes sense for you. Max was NOT alongside Raikkonen. He pulled partially alongside under braking due to braking extremely late into the corner. Before braking, Kimi was clearly in front. Max braked so late that he would have always made contact there; if not where they actually did then on exit as he ran wide. The move was not on I'm afraid.

As for your Senna, Schumacher comparisons; not at all a good fit. Michael had just crashed and damaged his car and he was weaving in order to take Damon out. Not even remotely comparable. Let's not be ridiculous here. As for the Senna interview; going for a gap several laps into a race where you are battling with one car is not the same as lunging into the first corner with cars all around you.


Check the replay, Max was alongside him into the braking zone. There is about 70% of his car ahead of the back of Kimi's rear wing and that easily qualifies as 'alongside'. I do not believe that alongside only means 100% overlap between the cars, as those occasions where the cars are perfectly level are going to be pretty rare for obvious reasons. I would say personally anything more than 10% to 20% overlap and then you are deemed as being 'alongside' and therefore allowed space, but regardless by anyone's definition 70% is clearly more than adequate overlap to qualify as being alongside someone.

Why don't YOU check the replay? I've posted it below. Go to the 44 second mark of the video. It's clear that Max enters the braking zone behind Raikkonen completely and even slightly behind the Racing Point that is next to him. He just brakes much later than anyone else while approaching the corner mostly over the curbs and at an impossible angle. With so many cars on the outside of him going into the first corner, that was a VERY risky attempt.



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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:37 pm 
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That aerial view shows more room on the outside of Kimi than I thought there was.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:24 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I am seriously baffled at the posts on here that are equating the rules of engagement in an on track overtake/duel during the race with the first corner following a start. Whether you think Kimi or Max is the one at fault, they are not the same, and equating the incident to Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide requires mental gynastics the likes of which I have not seen before.

As well as it having long been clarified and explicitly stated by race control that the rules of engagement that come into play between cars battling for position do not apply at the start of the race, a only modicum of critical thinking is needed to see why.

When two cars are fighting for the race, the drivers only have one moving target they need to be aware of - the driver they are keeping behind if they are defending, and the driver they are trying to pass if they are the attacker.

In a race start, there are in the middle of a pack of drivers, all moving. While it is easy for us to see from the off board cameras that Max was there, that's not the case inside of the cockpit. For one thing, Max was hidden behind the Racing Point and Kimi would have had no clue he was there until the last second even if he had been looking the right direction. And I reiterate, assuming he was looking in the right place at the right time.

Had Kimi been in a one on one fight with Max then he definitely would have been looking and aware of his position. If Max was making an overtake during the race, then the move was on. In a race start though, with his racing experience Max should be aware that it's impossible for drivers to be aware of what happening in all directions, and when you lunge from behind another car it's almost guaranteed that they don't know you are there. All the other drivers knew this and braked appropriately - Max was the one that didn't, forgetting the age old adage that you can't win the race in the first corner but you can certainly lose it.


And if it had been Max on the outside people would be criticizing him for closing the door not knowing if someone was on the inside or not.

Saying that Kimi should have left space because he was unaware whether a driver was there is a valid (albeit flawed) argument. My issue is applying rules for one-on-one dueling with the first corner of the race, which reached the levels beyond self parody by equating it to Adelaide '94.


Oh a penalty would be unnecessary. I do think Verstappen gets blamed for things other drivers would not. I don't think he should get blamed for putting his car in a risky position if people are giving Kimi a free pass for moving to the inside without knowing if a care was there. He could've easily left room on the inside. He took just as much risk as Verstappen.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:40 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I am seriously baffled at the posts on here that are equating the rules of engagement in an on track overtake/duel during the race with the first corner following a start. Whether you think Kimi or Max is the one at fault, they are not the same, and equating the incident to Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide requires mental gynastics the likes of which I have not seen before.

As well as it having long been clarified and explicitly stated by race control that the rules of engagement that come into play between cars battling for position do not apply at the start of the race, a only modicum of critical thinking is needed to see why.

When two cars are fighting for the race, the drivers only have one moving target they need to be aware of - the driver they are keeping behind if they are defending, and the driver they are trying to pass if they are the attacker.

In a race start, there are in the middle of a pack of drivers, all moving. While it is easy for us to see from the off board cameras that Max was there, that's not the case inside of the cockpit. For one thing, Max was hidden behind the Racing Point and Kimi would have had no clue he was there until the last second even if he had been looking the right direction. And I reiterate, assuming he was looking in the right place at the right time.

Had Kimi been in a one on one fight with Max then he definitely would have been looking and aware of his position. If Max was making an overtake during the race, then the move was on. In a race start though, with his racing experience Max should be aware that it's impossible for drivers to be aware of what happening in all directions, and when you lunge from behind another car it's almost guaranteed that they don't know you are there. All the other drivers knew this and braked appropriately - Max was the one that didn't, forgetting the age old adage that you can't win the race in the first corner but you can certainly lose it.


Firstly the incident looks very similar to Australia 1994 with the way that the cars make contact, so not too hard to see why.

Despite the steward's long standing comment, you can not just crash into people at the start, it doesn't give drivers carte blanche to do what they like, otherwise why was Kimi penalised on the opening lap of Britain 2018 for sloppily ruining Hamilton's race? He did the same in Belgium 2019 and ruined Max's race, with similar sloppy driving. Plus applying opening lap common sense as per the four principles I mentioned, racing incidents on the opening lap can be avoided, or punished appropriately when incidents do actually occur. There is no difference to racing on lap 1 as there is on lap 5 or lap 10, it is easy to see who was driving carelessly or at fault. If driver's keep their path through the corner and don't, for example, try to move onto the racing line when they can't see an area of track clearly, then that is good driving and very easy to teach drivers. They only need to apply this for one corner, so it's not asking much and indeed drivers seem to follow it a good chunk of the time, (Hungary 2019). Plus didn't Seb get penalised for hitting Bottas in France 2018 at the first corner? Bad driving on the opening lap can be punishable.

Now I do like seeing opening lap crashes for the entertainment factor, but they are almost as easy to punish and penalise as mid-race incidents, so drivers are getting away with lap 1 mistakes too often under the notion that it is supposedly too hard for them to prevent crashing into others. It's easy not to hit others, brake a bit earlier and hold your path through the first corner, then you will not crash into others and they will not crash into you.

If this Kimi/Max incident occurred the same but was on lap 15, people would be saying Kimi shouldn't have turned in like that, so why is he allowed to carelessly do the same on lap 1 when he has no idea who is around him?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:49 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Nope. I said Kimi would have been better off had he left more space (which is obvious due to the fact that the collision ruined his race). Max would also have been better off had he not tried to lunge there from so far back. You are only looking at this from one side apparently, though I cannot understand why that makes sense for you. Max was NOT alongside Raikkonen. He pulled partially alongside under braking due to braking extremely late into the corner. Before braking, Kimi was clearly in front. Max braked so late that he would have always made contact there; if not where they actually did then on exit as he ran wide. The move was not on I'm afraid.

As for your Senna, Schumacher comparisons; not at all a good fit. Michael had just crashed and damaged his car and he was weaving in order to take Damon out. Not even remotely comparable. Let's not be ridiculous here. As for the Senna interview; going for a gap several laps into a race where you are battling with one car is not the same as lunging into the first corner with cars all around you.


Check the replay, Max was alongside him into the braking zone. There is about 70% of his car ahead of the back of Kimi's rear wing and that easily qualifies as 'alongside'. I do not believe that alongside only means 100% overlap between the cars, as those occasions where the cars are perfectly level are going to be pretty rare for obvious reasons. I would say personally anything more than 10% to 20% overlap and then you are deemed as being 'alongside' and therefore allowed space, but regardless by anyone's definition 70% is clearly more than adequate overlap to qualify as being alongside someone.

Why don't YOU check the replay? I've posted it below. Go to the 44 second mark of the video. It's clear that Max enters the braking zone behind Raikkonen completely and even slightly behind the Racing Point that is next to him. He just brakes much later than anyone else while approaching the corner mostly over the curbs and at an impossible angle. With so many cars on the outside of him going into the first corner, that was a VERY risky attempt.



I have checked and Max is well alongside Kimi and totally entitled to try and overtake him there. They are not perfectly level and they do not need to be to try a pass. Max has a lot of his car alongside Kimi and that is sufficient to be given space. Kimi knows he is in the middle of the track and since he is surrounded by cars in the pack, he should not just sweep to the outside or inside of the corner but instead hold the middle line and he will be incident-free. He can literally just follow Bottas' path through the corner for the next couple of seconds and no crash happens at all. Max does not out-brake himself with his move, he is easily making the corner on the inside path, he is 100% innocent here, which means it has to be Kimi's fault. It only takes a bit of dilligence for drivers to avoid contact in these opening lap situations, they are not vastly different from racing on any other lap.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:59 pm 
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Todd wrote:
That aerial view shows more room on the outside of Kimi than I thought there was.


Exactly, and these are supposedly elite drivers so they should be able to race well. Just hold your line for one corner or so damn it. It's really not difficult. :D


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:06 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Nope. I said Kimi would have been better off had he left more space (which is obvious due to the fact that the collision ruined his race). Max would also have been better off had he not tried to lunge there from so far back. You are only looking at this from one side apparently, though I cannot understand why that makes sense for you. Max was NOT alongside Raikkonen. He pulled partially alongside under braking due to braking extremely late into the corner. Before braking, Kimi was clearly in front. Max braked so late that he would have always made contact there; if not where they actually did then on exit as he ran wide. The move was not on I'm afraid.

As for your Senna, Schumacher comparisons; not at all a good fit. Michael had just crashed and damaged his car and he was weaving in order to take Damon out. Not even remotely comparable. Let's not be ridiculous here. As for the Senna interview; going for a gap several laps into a race where you are battling with one car is not the same as lunging into the first corner with cars all around you.


Check the replay, Max was alongside him into the braking zone. There is about 70% of his car ahead of the back of Kimi's rear wing and that easily qualifies as 'alongside'. I do not believe that alongside only means 100% overlap between the cars, as those occasions where the cars are perfectly level are going to be pretty rare for obvious reasons. I would say personally anything more than 10% to 20% overlap and then you are deemed as being 'alongside' and therefore allowed space, but regardless by anyone's definition 70% is clearly more than adequate overlap to qualify as being alongside someone.

Why don't YOU check the replay? I've posted it below. Go to the 44 second mark of the video. It's clear that Max enters the braking zone behind Raikkonen completely and even slightly behind the Racing Point that is next to him. He just brakes much later than anyone else while approaching the corner mostly over the curbs and at an impossible angle. With so many cars on the outside of him going into the first corner, that was a VERY risky attempt.



I have checked and Max is well alongside Kimi and totally entitled to try and overtake him there. They are not perfectly level and they do not need to be to try a pass. Max has a lot of his car alongside Kimi and that is sufficient to be given space. Kimi knows he is in the middle of the track and since he is surrounded by cars in the pack, he should not just sweep to the outside or inside of the corner but instead hold the middle line and he will be incident-free. He can literally just follow Bottas' path through the corner for the next couple of seconds and no crash happens at all. Max does not out-brake himself with his move, he is easily making the corner on the inside path, he is 100% innocent here, which means it has to be Kimi's fault. It only takes a bit of dilligence for drivers to avoid contact in these opening lap situations, they are not vastly different from racing on any other lap.

No mate. I can't just let that slide when the video is right there. Max is NOT alongside Kimi until after the cars are on the brakes. He is behind him and he tries an extremely optimistic lunge. He was never making that corner unless Kimi backed off completely and just allowed Max to overtake him. The angle that Max took would have made it extremely difficult to get the car properly rotated without going all the way to the edge of the circuit on exit and probably running wide. Even having hit Kimi; Max's car still goes all the way to the edge of the circuit.

Like I said, the move was not on. Your argument seems to be that Kimi should have taken all precautions and been extremely careful while Max was 100% okay to just make a carefree lunge into the first corner. That's as imbalanced of a perspective as it gets.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:17 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:


Why don't YOU check the replay? I've posted it below. Go to the 44 second mark of the video. It's clear that Max enters the braking zone behind Raikkonen completely and even slightly behind the Racing Point that is next to him. He just brakes much later than anyone else while approaching the corner mostly over the curbs and at an impossible angle. With so many cars on the outside of him going into the first corner, that was a VERY risky attempt.



I have checked and Max is well alongside Kimi and totally entitled to try and overtake him there. They are not perfectly level and they do not need to be to try a pass. Max has a lot of his car alongside Kimi and that is sufficient to be given space. Kimi knows he is in the middle of the track and since he is surrounded by cars in the pack, he should not just sweep to the outside or inside of the corner but instead hold the middle line and he will be incident-free. He can literally just follow Bottas' path through the corner for the next couple of seconds and no crash happens at all. Max does not out-brake himself with his move, he is easily making the corner on the inside path, he is 100% innocent here, which means it has to be Kimi's fault. It only takes a bit of dilligence for drivers to avoid contact in these opening lap situations, they are not vastly different from racing on any other lap.

No mate. I can't just let that slide when the video is right there. Max is NOT alongside Kimi until after the cars are on the brakes. He is behind him and he tries an extremely optimistic lunge. He was never making that corner unless Kimi backed off completely and just allowed Max to overtake him. The angle that Max took would have made it extremely difficult to get the car properly rotated without going all the way to the edge of the circuit on exit and probably running wide. Even having hit Kimi; Max's car still goes all the way to the edge of the circuit.

Like I said, the move was not on. Your argument seems to be that Kimi should have taken all precautions and been extremely careful while Max was 100% okay to just make a carefree lunge into the first corner. That's as imbalanced of a perspective as it gets.


I don't know what to say, that move is just so 'on' and Max was right to go for the gap, just like Senna always said. Max is braking firmly and making the inside of the corner, he is not sliding outwards by steaming in too hot, he is in complete control of his car.

Now if Max on corner exit, leaves the inside path and starts accelerating wide into Kimi then of course Max would be completely at fault if the crash happens that way, but Kimi never even gave Max a chance for it to be Max's fault as Kimi is already chopping across Max at an earlier part of the corner. So we unfortunately will never know what would have happened at corner exit but Max would have an obligation not to squeeze or laterally move into Kimi at that point, and as long as he waits a bit before flooring the throttle, he could easily have avoided squeezing Kimi on the exit.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:18 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I am seriously baffled at the posts on here that are equating the rules of engagement in an on track overtake/duel during the race with the first corner following a start. Whether you think Kimi or Max is the one at fault, they are not the same, and equating the incident to Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide requires mental gynastics the likes of which I have not seen before.

As well as it having long been clarified and explicitly stated by race control that the rules of engagement that come into play between cars battling for position do not apply at the start of the race, a only modicum of critical thinking is needed to see why.

When two cars are fighting for the race, the drivers only have one moving target they need to be aware of - the driver they are keeping behind if they are defending, and the driver they are trying to pass if they are the attacker.

In a race start, there are in the middle of a pack of drivers, all moving. While it is easy for us to see from the off board cameras that Max was there, that's not the case inside of the cockpit. For one thing, Max was hidden behind the Racing Point and Kimi would have had no clue he was there until the last second even if he had been looking the right direction. And I reiterate, assuming he was looking in the right place at the right time.

Had Kimi been in a one on one fight with Max then he definitely would have been looking and aware of his position. If Max was making an overtake during the race, then the move was on. In a race start though, with his racing experience Max should be aware that it's impossible for drivers to be aware of what happening in all directions, and when you lunge from behind another car it's almost guaranteed that they don't know you are there. All the other drivers knew this and braked appropriately - Max was the one that didn't, forgetting the age old adage that you can't win the race in the first corner but you can certainly lose it.


And if it had been Max on the outside people would be criticizing him for closing the door not knowing if someone was on the inside or not.

Saying that Kimi should have left space because he was unaware whether a driver was there is a valid (albeit flawed) argument. My issue is applying rules for one-on-one dueling with the first corner of the race, which reached the levels beyond self parody by equating it to Adelaide '94.

The flaw in that "argument" is that with Kimi being ALL THE WAY INSIDE, there isn't supposed to be ANYMORE SPACE ON THE INSIDE. SMH

I can see the argument that he was alongside, but as state above, these guys are ALL racing and it's highly unfair for a driver to ALWAYS have to leave a space when he SHOULD be aiming for the Apex precisely as Raikkonen did. Besides that Raikkonen was paying attention to the Racing Point (gosh what a STUPID name that is) who was a car's width beside him and Max is yet an additional car's width to his right which is outside the range of his mirror, so he cannot see Max at all, and being as he got in front of the car that would be down the inside, he took the NORMAL racing line.

Max was always going to shoot well over the apex in a bid to take the position, but that would constitute an illegal overtake as he would've had all 4 wheels beyond track bounds, but since he's done this very thing in the past and not even been investigated, he probably feels it's OK to do it again.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:29 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:


Why don't YOU check the replay? I've posted it below. Go to the 44 second mark of the video. It's clear that Max enters the braking zone behind Raikkonen completely and even slightly behind the Racing Point that is next to him. He just brakes much later than anyone else while approaching the corner mostly over the curbs and at an impossible angle. With so many cars on the outside of him going into the first corner, that was a VERY risky attempt.



I have checked and Max is well alongside Kimi and totally entitled to try and overtake him there. They are not perfectly level and they do not need to be to try a pass. Max has a lot of his car alongside Kimi and that is sufficient to be given space. Kimi knows he is in the middle of the track and since he is surrounded by cars in the pack, he should not just sweep to the outside or inside of the corner but instead hold the middle line and he will be incident-free. He can literally just follow Bottas' path through the corner for the next couple of seconds and no crash happens at all. Max does not out-brake himself with his move, he is easily making the corner on the inside path, he is 100% innocent here, which means it has to be Kimi's fault. It only takes a bit of dilligence for drivers to avoid contact in these opening lap situations, they are not vastly different from racing on any other lap.

No mate. I can't just let that slide when the video is right there. Max is NOT alongside Kimi until after the cars are on the brakes. He is behind him and he tries an extremely optimistic lunge. He was never making that corner unless Kimi backed off completely and just allowed Max to overtake him. The angle that Max took would have made it extremely difficult to get the car properly rotated without going all the way to the edge of the circuit on exit and probably running wide. Even having hit Kimi; Max's car still goes all the way to the edge of the circuit.

Like I said, the move was not on. Your argument seems to be that Kimi should have taken all precautions and been extremely careful while Max was 100% okay to just make a carefree lunge into the first corner. That's as imbalanced of a perspective as it gets.


I don't know what to say, that move is just so 'on' and Max was right to go for the gap, just like Senna always said. Max is braking firmly and making the inside of the corner, he is not sliding outwards by steaming in too hot, he is in complete control of his car.

Now if Max on corner exit, leaves the inside path and starts accelerating wide into Kimi then of course Max would be completely at fault if the crash happens that way, but Kimi never even gave Max a chance for it to be Max's fault as Kimi is already chopping across Max at an earlier part of the corner. So we unfortunately will never know what would have happened at corner exit but Max would have an obligation not to squeeze or laterally move into Kimi at that point, and as long as he waits a bit before flooring the throttle, he could easily have avoided squeezing Kimi on the exit.

The flaw in your reasoning is that you have yet to grasp the fact that Max made an error in judgement there and went into a gap that was always going to close up. Again, the angle that Max took was so aggressive and he was braking so hard that it was always going to lead to trouble at the first corner. The only way for it to work would be for everyone else to get out of his way and just let him through. Again, it's not always up to the other guy to move. This is something that it seemed Max had finally come to understand this year but yesterday was a blip on an otherwise excellent run of form for Max. He got it wrong there by taking an unnecessary risk.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Kimi was trying to avoid those around him. I feel like on reflection he would probably do the same again. Max perhaps would do the same again to but only because he tends to take more risks and can afford to. But I would guess that when he's in a championship fight we wouldn't see max take a similar risk if he has any sense. Right now there's far less pressure on those decisions for Max so it's hard to be sure.

This is an old argument dating back to 2017, he has nothing to lose, however this past 12 months he still hasn't had a WDC capable car but guess what after his disastrous start in 2018 because he carried on in the same vein as before, he started taking less risks and the better results came along with better acclaim to the point of some saying that he is now driving better than Hamilton.

He got himself to the point of challenging for second place in the WDC against a faster Mercedes and Ferrari so I would say he had something to lose yet he still took the risk.

His overall performance and consistency has definitely improved significantly recently there are no arguments there. Perhaps you are right, but am not sure an outside chance at second in the championship would generate a lot of pressure for Max. I think he knows ultimately he doesn’t have a car to compete for the championship on a consistent basis so will generally push harder for race wins when the opportunity presents itself, and I’d expect a driver to accept greater risk under those circumstances.

Max has been in a position the last few seasons where he can be more aggressive when racing Hamilton / Vettel as they have more to lose. His performance has certainly improved but I am not fully convinced that means he is taking a lot less risks – but more improving his execution and cutting out some of the mistake, aided by people staying out of his way much of the time?

That wouldn’t be a bad thing though. I actually think some times that Hamilton has become too conservative, and tends to be very risk adverse of the start and coming through the grid. But that has also served him very well. It would be nice if Max retains a bit more of that aggression/risk taking, as it’s good to watch and can still bring good results. It won’t always pay of though as we saw at the weekend.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:59 pm 
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Max seemed completely at fault to me. Kimi likely didn't see him, but certainly didn't expect him to brake late - he wasn't so much leaving no room as expecting no one to be there. Meanwhile, it is not okay for Max to drive with blinders on, failing to show as much insight as Perez in his decision-making. Impatience leads to taking greater risks, which means a greater risk of an incident. I suppose it is just a matter of weighing the possible advantage against a game-over scenario. Here, Max would easily pass the cars in front in the subsequent lap or two, so the advantage was not worth the risk.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:35 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I am seriously baffled at the posts on here that are equating the rules of engagement in an on track overtake/duel during the race with the first corner following a start. Whether you think Kimi or Max is the one at fault, they are not the same, and equating the incident to Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide requires mental gynastics the likes of which I have not seen before.

As well as it having long been clarified and explicitly stated by race control that the rules of engagement that come into play between cars battling for position do not apply at the start of the race, a only modicum of critical thinking is needed to see why.

When two cars are fighting for the race, the drivers only have one moving target they need to be aware of - the driver they are keeping behind if they are defending, and the driver they are trying to pass if they are the attacker.

In a race start, there are in the middle of a pack of drivers, all moving. While it is easy for us to see from the off board cameras that Max was there, that's not the case inside of the cockpit. For one thing, Max was hidden behind the Racing Point and Kimi would have had no clue he was there until the last second even if he had been looking the right direction. And I reiterate, assuming he was looking in the right place at the right time.

Had Kimi been in a one on one fight with Max then he definitely would have been looking and aware of his position. If Max was making an overtake during the race, then the move was on. In a race start though, with his racing experience Max should be aware that it's impossible for drivers to be aware of what happening in all directions, and when you lunge from behind another car it's almost guaranteed that they don't know you are there. All the other drivers knew this and braked appropriately - Max was the one that didn't, forgetting the age old adage that you can't win the race in the first corner but you can certainly lose it.


And if it had been Max on the outside people would be criticizing him for closing the door not knowing if someone was on the inside or not.

Would that same scenario have even played out though seeing as no one else chose to be as aggressive as Verstappen?


Didn't they?

I don't believe so.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:41 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
[color=#000057]I am seriously baffled at the posts on here that are equating the rules of engagement in an on track overtake/duel during the race with the first corner following a start. Whether you think Kimi or Max is the one at fault, they are not the same, and equating the incident to Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide requires mental gynastics the likes of which I have not seen before.

As well as it having long been clarified and explicitly stated by race control that the rules of engagement that come into play between cars battling for position do not apply at the start of the race, a only modicum of critical thinking is needed to see why.

Lando Norris is now popular, and now many visit his Twitch stream. And for the last race, it was evident who were the new faces because they over-analyzed and got totally anal on rules and off-tracks. The point is that the focus on rules and minor infractions has become an epidemic for too many Formula One fans. Personally I do not advocate throwing away the rule book, but presently there is too much focus and attention on these rules.

Last year, Vettel was aggressive on lap one, there was a safety car involved, and the pass by Vettel on lap one cemented his run to a win last year.

Everyone is very aware that the best opportunity to make up positions is on lap one. And Verstappen has benefited greatly from doing that in the past.

Image

FFS this is hard core competition with millions at stake, this is not a freaking social club or charity. The drivers are expected to fight, to compete.

Max has been on a bit of a tilt since Hungary. In fact, the day after Hungary Max got a little crazy and did this ...

https://clips.twitch.tv/ZanyDrabInternOSkomodo

Which resulted in a holiday away from iRacing. Of note is Max's dirty defending. He takes the outside going into turn 5, but the instant he notices that attacking car move to the inside, he moves to block that off. That is known as blocking, frowned on in almost every racing series. This is what got so many Formula One drivers steamed when Max first showed up in Formula One.

Vettel was aggressive on lap 1, was that not just a simple pass on Hamilton going down the Kemmel straight much like he did this year?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:45 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I am seriously baffled at the posts on here that are equating the rules of engagement in an on track overtake/duel during the race with the first corner following a start. Whether you think Kimi or Max is the one at fault, they are not the same, and equating the incident to Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide requires mental gynastics the likes of which I have not seen before.

As well as it having long been clarified and explicitly stated by race control that the rules of engagement that come into play between cars battling for position do not apply at the start of the race, a only modicum of critical thinking is needed to see why.

When two cars are fighting for the race, the drivers only have one moving target they need to be aware of - the driver they are keeping behind if they are defending, and the driver they are trying to pass if they are the attacker.

In a race start, there are in the middle of a pack of drivers, all moving. While it is easy for us to see from the off board cameras that Max was there, that's not the case inside of the cockpit. For one thing, Max was hidden behind the Racing Point and Kimi would have had no clue he was there until the last second even if he had been looking the right direction. And I reiterate, assuming he was looking in the right place at the right time.

Had Kimi been in a one on one fight with Max then he definitely would have been looking and aware of his position. If Max was making an overtake during the race, then the move was on. In a race start though, with his racing experience Max should be aware that it's impossible for drivers to be aware of what happening in all directions, and when you lunge from behind another car it's almost guaranteed that they don't know you are there. All the other drivers knew this and braked appropriately - Max was the one that didn't, forgetting the age old adage that you can't win the race in the first corner but you can certainly lose it.


Firstly the incident looks very similar to Australia 1994 with the way that the cars make contact, so not too hard to see why.

Despite the steward's long standing comment, you can not just crash into people at the start, it doesn't give drivers carte blanche to do what they like, otherwise why was Kimi penalised on the opening lap of Britain 2018 for sloppily ruining Hamilton's race? He did the same in Belgium 2019 and ruined Max's race, with similar sloppy driving. Plus applying opening lap common sense as per the four principles I mentioned, racing incidents on the opening lap can be avoided, or punished appropriately when incidents do actually occur. There is no difference to racing on lap 1 as there is on lap 5 or lap 10, it is easy to see who was driving carelessly or at fault. If driver's keep their path through the corner and don't, for example, try to move onto the racing line when they can't see an area of track clearly, then that is good driving and very easy to teach drivers. They only need to apply this for one corner, so it's not asking much and indeed drivers seem to follow it a good chunk of the time, (Hungary 2019). Plus didn't Seb get penalised for hitting Bottas in France 2018 at the first corner? Bad driving on the opening lap can be punishable.

Now I do like seeing opening lap crashes for the entertainment factor, but they are almost as easy to punish and penalise as mid-race incidents, so drivers are getting away with lap 1 mistakes too often under the notion that it is supposedly too hard for them to prevent crashing into others. It's easy not to hit others, brake a bit earlier and hold your path through the first corner, then you will not crash into others and they will not crash into you.

If this Kimi/Max incident occurred the same but was on lap 15, people would be saying Kimi shouldn't have turned in like that, so why is he allowed to carelessly do the same on lap 1 when he has no idea who is around him?

Again how were the two incidents the same for Kimi, at Silverstone he was the car behind when he hit Hamilton, at Spa he was the car in front when Verstappen hit him.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:09 pm 
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Totally on Verstappen.

As a MV fan, I was rather tiddled. He should have known better, inexcusable totally. It wasn't even a 50/50 chance, he blew it. One can hope he doesn't do it a third time next year.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:09 pm 
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WHoff78 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Kimi was trying to avoid those around him. I feel like on reflection he would probably do the same again. Max perhaps would do the same again to but only because he tends to take more risks and can afford to. But I would guess that when he's in a championship fight we wouldn't see max take a similar risk if he has any sense. Right now there's far less pressure on those decisions for Max so it's hard to be sure.

This is an old argument dating back to 2017, he has nothing to lose, however this past 12 months he still hasn't had a WDC capable car but guess what after his disastrous start in 2018 because he carried on in the same vein as before, he started taking less risks and the better results came along with better acclaim to the point of some saying that he is now driving better than Hamilton.

He got himself to the point of challenging for second place in the WDC against a faster Mercedes and Ferrari so I would say he had something to lose yet he still took the risk.

His overall performance and consistency has definitely improved significantly recently there are no arguments there. Perhaps you are right, but am not sure an outside chance at second in the championship would generate a lot of pressure for Max. I think he knows ultimately he doesn’t have a car to compete for the championship on a consistent basis so will generally push harder for race wins when the opportunity presents itself, and I’d expect a driver to accept greater risk under those circumstances.

Max has been in a position the last few seasons where he can be more aggressive when racing Hamilton / Vettel as they have more to lose. His performance has certainly improved but I am not fully convinced that means he is taking a lot less risks – but more improving his execution and cutting out some of the mistake, aided by people staying out of his way much of the time?

That wouldn’t be a bad thing though. I actually think some times that Hamilton has become too conservative, and tends to be very risk adverse of the start and coming through the grid. But that has also served him very well. It would be nice if Max retains a bit more of that aggression/risk taking, as it’s good to watch and can still bring good results. It won’t always pay of though as we saw at the weekend.

Were did Hamilton's aggressive driving get him early in his F1 career, he now has the balance right, that's come with experience.

Verstappen improving his execution and cutting out the mistakes, well that's my version of him cutting back on the aggression, a win or bust attitude is exactly as it sounds, some races then he will not finish, I'm sure Verstappen was far happier gunning for second place in the WDC than being nowhere after the first 6 races last year, plus it still bagged him 2 wins so it's not like he needs to be extra aggressive to bag the wins.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:41 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
No mate. I can't just let that slide when the video is right there. Max is NOT alongside Kimi until after the cars are on the brakes. He is behind him and he tries an extremely optimistic lunge. He was never making that corner unless Kimi backed off completely and just allowed Max to overtake him. The angle that Max took would have made it extremely difficult to get the car properly rotated without going all the way to the edge of the circuit on exit and probably running wide. Even having hit Kimi; Max's car still goes all the way to the edge of the circuit.

Like I said, the move was not on. Your argument seems to be that Kimi should have taken all precautions and been extremely careful while Max was 100% okay to just make a carefree lunge into the first corner. That's as imbalanced of a perspective as it gets.


I don't know what to say, that move is just so 'on' and Max was right to go for the gap, just like Senna always said. Max is braking firmly and making the inside of the corner, he is not sliding outwards by steaming in too hot, he is in complete control of his car.

Now if Max on corner exit, leaves the inside path and starts accelerating wide into Kimi then of course Max would be completely at fault if the crash happens that way, but Kimi never even gave Max a chance for it to be Max's fault as Kimi is already chopping across Max at an earlier part of the corner. So we unfortunately will never know what would have happened at corner exit but Max would have an obligation not to squeeze or laterally move into Kimi at that point, and as long as he waits a bit before flooring the throttle, he could easily have avoided squeezing Kimi on the exit.

The flaw in your reasoning is that you have yet to grasp the fact that Max made an error in judgement there and went into a gap that was always going to close up. Again, the angle that Max took was so aggressive and he was braking so hard that it was always going to lead to trouble at the first corner. The only way for it to work would be for everyone else to get out of his way and just let him through. Again, it's not always up to the other guy to move. This is something that it seemed Max had finally come to understand this year but yesterday was a blip on an otherwise excellent run of form for Max. He got it wrong there by taking an unnecessary risk.


No, the flaw in your reasoning is that if Kimi knew Max was there, then Kimi would be completely at fault, so why does the idea that Kimi not knowing Max was there, (but it being reasonable for him to assume someone was there when he has left the inside door open going into turn 1), suddenly make Kimi innocent?

You are trying to discourage the guy behind from racing the guy in front even though there is a clear gap there. You and your viewpoints are anti-racing in that if drivers followed your logic there would be even less racing happening.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I am seriously baffled at the posts on here that are equating the rules of engagement in an on track overtake/duel during the race with the first corner following a start. Whether you think Kimi or Max is the one at fault, they are not the same, and equating the incident to Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide requires mental gynastics the likes of which I have not seen before.

As well as it having long been clarified and explicitly stated by race control that the rules of engagement that come into play between cars battling for position do not apply at the start of the race, a only modicum of critical thinking is needed to see why.

When two cars are fighting for the race, the drivers only have one moving target they need to be aware of - the driver they are keeping behind if they are defending, and the driver they are trying to pass if they are the attacker.

In a race start, there are in the middle of a pack of drivers, all moving. While it is easy for us to see from the off board cameras that Max was there, that's not the case inside of the cockpit. For one thing, Max was hidden behind the Racing Point and Kimi would have had no clue he was there until the last second even if he had been looking the right direction. And I reiterate, assuming he was looking in the right place at the right time.

Had Kimi been in a one on one fight with Max then he definitely would have been looking and aware of his position. If Max was making an overtake during the race, then the move was on. In a race start though, with his racing experience Max should be aware that it's impossible for drivers to be aware of what happening in all directions, and when you lunge from behind another car it's almost guaranteed that they don't know you are there. All the other drivers knew this and braked appropriately - Max was the one that didn't, forgetting the age old adage that you can't win the race in the first corner but you can certainly lose it.


Firstly the incident looks very similar to Australia 1994 with the way that the cars make contact, so not too hard to see why.

Despite the steward's long standing comment, you can not just crash into people at the start, it doesn't give drivers carte blanche to do what they like, otherwise why was Kimi penalised on the opening lap of Britain 2018 for sloppily ruining Hamilton's race? He did the same in Belgium 2019 and ruined Max's race, with similar sloppy driving. Plus applying opening lap common sense as per the four principles I mentioned, racing incidents on the opening lap can be avoided, or punished appropriately when incidents do actually occur. There is no difference to racing on lap 1 as there is on lap 5 or lap 10, it is easy to see who was driving carelessly or at fault. If driver's keep their path through the corner and don't, for example, try to move onto the racing line when they can't see an area of track clearly, then that is good driving and very easy to teach drivers. They only need to apply this for one corner, so it's not asking much and indeed drivers seem to follow it a good chunk of the time, (Hungary 2019). Plus didn't Seb get penalised for hitting Bottas in France 2018 at the first corner? Bad driving on the opening lap can be punishable.

Now I do like seeing opening lap crashes for the entertainment factor, but they are almost as easy to punish and penalise as mid-race incidents, so drivers are getting away with lap 1 mistakes too often under the notion that it is supposedly too hard for them to prevent crashing into others. It's easy not to hit others, brake a bit earlier and hold your path through the first corner, then you will not crash into others and they will not crash into you.

If this Kimi/Max incident occurred the same but was on lap 15, people would be saying Kimi shouldn't have turned in like that, so why is he allowed to carelessly do the same on lap 1 when he has no idea who is around him?

Again how were the two incidents the same for Kimi, at Silverstone he was the car behind when he hit Hamilton, at Spa he was the car in front when Verstappen hit him.


Well can you tell me what rule Vettel broke in Britain first, then I will get back to you? People seem to be very 'letter of the rules' oriented in this thread but no one is saying what rule Vettel broke in Britain to get a 20 second penalty.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:50 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Max seemed completely at fault to me. Kimi likely didn't see him, but certainly didn't expect him to brake late - he wasn't so much leaving no room as expecting no one to be there. Meanwhile, it is not okay for Max to drive with blinders on, failing to show as much insight as Perez in his decision-making. Impatience leads to taking greater risks, which means a greater risk of an incident. I suppose it is just a matter of weighing the possible advantage against a game-over scenario. Here, Max would easily pass the cars in front in the subsequent lap or two, so the advantage was not worth the risk.


How can you not expect someone to be there when he himself personally couldn't see that space, and there was indeed a car there?

Kimi can only get away with 'not expecting someone to be there' if there is only a very remote chance of someone being there. It's turn 1 of a grand prix and he is in the middle of the pack with cars all around, so the odds of someone being there in his blindspot is much less than remote, in fact it's actually very likely. Therefore he cannot just choose any line that he wants to take through the corner, he instead has to take a more cautious line through the corner, (like for example Bottas who went round the corner dodging the apex entirely and staying in the middle of the track with his pathing).


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:03 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I am seriously baffled at the posts on here that are equating the rules of engagement in an on track overtake/duel during the race with the first corner following a start. Whether you think Kimi or Max is the one at fault, they are not the same, and equating the incident to Schumacher and Hill at Adelaide requires mental gynastics the likes of which I have not seen before.

As well as it having long been clarified and explicitly stated by race control that the rules of engagement that come into play between cars battling for position do not apply at the start of the race, a only modicum of critical thinking is needed to see why.

When two cars are fighting for the race, the drivers only have one moving target they need to be aware of - the driver they are keeping behind if they are defending, and the driver they are trying to pass if they are the attacker.

In a race start, there are in the middle of a pack of drivers, all moving. While it is easy for us to see from the off board cameras that Max was there, that's not the case inside of the cockpit. For one thing, Max was hidden behind the Racing Point and Kimi would have had no clue he was there until the last second even if he had been looking the right direction. And I reiterate, assuming he was looking in the right place at the right time.

Had Kimi been in a one on one fight with Max then he definitely would have been looking and aware of his position. If Max was making an overtake during the race, then the move was on. In a race start though, with his racing experience Max should be aware that it's impossible for drivers to be aware of what happening in all directions, and when you lunge from behind another car it's almost guaranteed that they don't know you are there. All the other drivers knew this and braked appropriately - Max was the one that didn't, forgetting the age old adage that you can't win the race in the first corner but you can certainly lose it.


Firstly the incident looks very similar to Australia 1994 with the way that the cars make contact, so not too hard to see why.

Despite the steward's long standing comment, you can not just crash into people at the start, it doesn't give drivers carte blanche to do what they like, otherwise why was Kimi penalised on the opening lap of Britain 2018 for sloppily ruining Hamilton's race? He did the same in Belgium 2019 and ruined Max's race, with similar sloppy driving. Plus applying opening lap common sense as per the four principles I mentioned, racing incidents on the opening lap can be avoided, or punished appropriately when incidents do actually occur. There is no difference to racing on lap 1 as there is on lap 5 or lap 10, it is easy to see who was driving carelessly or at fault. If driver's keep their path through the corner and don't, for example, try to move onto the racing line when they can't see an area of track clearly, then that is good driving and very easy to teach drivers. They only need to apply this for one corner, so it's not asking much and indeed drivers seem to follow it a good chunk of the time, (Hungary 2019). Plus didn't Seb get penalised for hitting Bottas in France 2018 at the first corner? Bad driving on the opening lap can be punishable.

Now I do like seeing opening lap crashes for the entertainment factor, but they are almost as easy to punish and penalise as mid-race incidents, so drivers are getting away with lap 1 mistakes too often under the notion that it is supposedly too hard for them to prevent crashing into others. It's easy not to hit others, brake a bit earlier and hold your path through the first corner, then you will not crash into others and they will not crash into you.

If this Kimi/Max incident occurred the same but was on lap 15, people would be saying Kimi shouldn't have turned in like that, so why is he allowed to carelessly do the same on lap 1 when he has no idea who is around him?

Again how were the two incidents the same for Kimi, at Silverstone he was the car behind when he hit Hamilton, at Spa he was the car in front when Verstappen hit him.


Well can you tell me what rule Vettel broke in Britain first, then I will get back to you? People seem to be very 'letter of the rules' oriented in this thread but no one is saying what rule Vettel broke in Britain to get a 20 second penalty.

Vettel rammed Verstappen from behind something that would have been impossible for Kimi to do to Verstappen.

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