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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:52 pm 
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Invade wrote:
JN23 wrote:

Out of interest, what do you have to do to get a 0? And has there been any 0's this season?



I gave Hamilton a 0 for Brazil 2017 qualifying.

I only measure the top drivers (I'm trying to expand this in retrospect and with reviews) but Grosjean would get a 0 for Spain 2018.

So yeah, it has to be pretty woeful. And it has to be extraordinary for an 8 but I dish them out slightly more frequently, presumably because top drivers are more likely to produce outstanding performances than dreadful ones.


Thanks. Any 8's recently?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:53 pm 
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bassel7 wrote:
Has there been any other driver who won his first two races consecutively like Leclerc? Apart from Fangio, perhaps.

Mansell. Hamilton. Sure there are others.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:53 pm 
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Sky just said to Vettel, 'we're not used to seeing you make mistakes'

Hmmmmmmm.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:53 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I still find it a bit odd that you are not as against hamilton given he couldn't get by even when he was on fresher tyres than Bottas at the end. Also concider that every lap Bottas had DRS on Leclerc, Leclerc also had DRS. I don't think either were disapointing, but really couldn't say Hamilton was better this race, even if he had a bit more speed.



I mean, why would I be? He drove a very good race and really made it a spectacle. Hamilton was better as he appeared to have slightly better speed and showed far better racecraft in his window of opportunity. It's clear.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:56 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Vettel is going downhill. Has he in his mind decided to retire at the end of this year?

I expected Vettel to reasonably comfortably beat Leclerc this year. I don't think that now. Not saying that many are saying this on this forum, but I don't like those who imply that the WDCs he had don't show how good he really is. I think he has got worse since then. At that stage when he was in a top car, i think he was at one point right up there at the level of Hamilton at his apsolute best. But he just can't do this consistently anymore. He used to be great, but isn't anymore.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:58 pm 
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Short of totally sacrificing one driver to assist the other today, I don't think there is much more that Mercedes could have done. They had to try mediums for Hamilton as having softer rubber was the only way to get even close to making a move. The Bottas tactic of hanging back while Hamilton did the hard yards putting pressure on Leclerc almost paid dividends and he also benefitted from Sebs mistake.

Without Vettel's huge error I think a Ferrari 1-2 was possible. The Merc and Ferrari drivers all made costly (or potentially costly) errors at various points but as so often is the case, Vettel's was the most costly.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:00 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Vettel is going downhill. Has he in his mind decided to retire at the end of this year?

Maybe a switch to bobsleigh.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:00 pm 
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Mercedes must be so frustrated. They were faster but just could not overtake. Two races now where Charles finished inside a sec. Ferrari strategy with hard tyres was also good. They deserved the win. Vettel was not happy yesterday when Charles was suppose to give him tow which never happened but still today that spin was pretty embarrassing :blush:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:00 pm 
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Invade wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I still find it a bit odd that you are not as against hamilton given he couldn't get by even when he was on fresher tyres than Bottas at the end. Also concider that every lap Bottas had DRS on Leclerc, Leclerc also had DRS. I don't think either were disapointing, but really couldn't say Hamilton was better this race, even if he had a bit more speed.



I mean, why would I be? He drove a very good race and really made it a spectacle. Hamilton was better as he appeared to have slightly better speed and showed far better racecraft in his window of opportunity. It's clear.

Yea sorry you shouldn't be against Hamilton, but from your wording of "disapointing performance" for Bottas i thought was a bit unreasonable. And I questioned that as I didn't reaally think Hamilton was better. Bottas had the tyre advantage, but I don't think he had any more of a realistic chance to be able to get by Leclerc at the end than Hamilton did several laps earlier before he got his tyres worn.I think they both had a chance but didn't quite get it right, at the same time of LEclerc defending well. Other than when he cut the corner. This to me should have got him the same penalty as Vettel got in Canada.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:00 pm 
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Hamilton raced Leclerc with 1 lap older tyres, 1 compound softer.
Bottas raced Leclerc with 7 lap newer tyres, 1 compound softer.

Bottas did another Bahrain 2018, he just doesn’t have the races edge. I think in all of his race wins he hasn’t made a single overtake?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:02 pm 
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Bottas had 7 lap fresher quicker tyres at the end of race. Let's look at it another way, does anyone think Bottas could do what Hamilton did for so many laps? I'm pretty dam sure Hamilton would have put up a better fight at the end if the roles was changed.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:02 pm 
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Look, I think we all know Bottas is not a patch on Lewis, so I'm not sure we need so many posts after so many races bashing him.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:03 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I still find it a bit odd that you are not as against hamilton given he couldn't get by even when he was on fresher tyres than Bottas at the end. Also concider that every lap Bottas had DRS on Leclerc, Leclerc also had DRS. I don't think either were disapointing, but really couldn't say Hamilton was better this race, even if he had a bit more speed.



I mean, why would I be? He drove a very good race and really made it a spectacle. Hamilton was better as he appeared to have slightly better speed and showed far better racecraft in his window of opportunity. It's clear.

Yea sorry you shouldn't be against Hamilton, but from your wording of "disapointing performance" for Bottas i thought was a bit unreasonable. And I questioned that as I didn't reaally think Hamilton was better. Bottas had the tyre advantage, but I don't think he had any more of a realistic chance to be able to get by Leclerc at the end than Hamilton did several laps earlier before he got his tyres worn.I think they both had a chance but didn't quite get it right, at the same time of LEclerc defending well. Other than when he cut the corner. This to me should have got him the same penalty as Vettel got in Canada.


Why?
Vettels penalty is Canada was for rejoining the track in front of another car, similar to what he got today. He forced Hamilton to brake to avoid a crash.

Leclerc today is similar in no way. Why was it a penalty for Leclerc today?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:04 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Hamilton raced Leclerc with 1 lap older tyres, 1 compound softer.
Bottas raced Leclerc with 7 lap newer tyres, 1 compound softer.

Bottas did another Bahrain 2018, he just doesn’t have the races edge. I think in all of his race wins he hasn’t made a single overtake?


He's Mercedes' choice for 2020. All the best to them for 2020.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:07 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
Hmm. Surprised Bottas has been completely impotent when given the chance to hunt down Leclerc. Disappointing performance.

Mercedes might regret not reversing the strategies.

the critisism against Bottas is just silly sometimes. Does this mean Hamilton was rubbish this weekend? Hamilton was basically the same as Bottas was today in Canada. What a disapointing performance... Do I think that? No.

Hamilton couldn't get by today despite multiple attempts, and made mistakes, and it is Bottas you are being against...

Leclerc made a mistake which looked so similar to vettel in canada that i think he should have had the same penalty. Both Bottas and Hamilton made mistakes, But I really can't say Bottas was disapointing. This was one of his better drives this season.


Will also add that every time Bottas was within DRS, Leclerc also had it as well as the ferrari speed, so that will possibly have saved Leclerc.


How was Hamilton today basically the same as Bottas was in Canada?


@TheGiantHogweed

will you answer this please?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:08 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
bassel7 wrote:
Has there been any other driver who won his first two races consecutively like Leclerc? Apart from Fangio, perhaps.

Mansell. Hamilton. Sure there are others.


Hill and Hakkinen won their first 3 consecutively.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:08 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
Invade wrote:
JN23 wrote:

Out of interest, what do you have to do to get a 0? And has there been any 0's this season?



I gave Hamilton a 0 for Brazil 2017 qualifying.

I only measure the top drivers (I'm trying to expand this in retrospect and with reviews) but Grosjean would get a 0 for Spain 2018.

So yeah, it has to be pretty woeful. And it has to be extraordinary for an 8 but I dish them out slightly more frequently, presumably because top drivers are more likely to produce outstanding performances than dreadful ones.


Thanks. Any 8's recently?



Ricciardo Monaco 2018 race, Hamilton Singapore 2018 qualifying.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:10 pm 
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The moment Leclerc locked & rejoined in front of Hamilton. Is it because of the distance between the two (when compared to Vettel & Hamilton in Canada) was a bit more with Leclerc clearly ahead of Hamilton the reason he escaped a penalty?

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Source - Imgur

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:10 pm 
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Anyone seen Verstappen's turn one incident? They mentioned on Sky he might have been hit from behind but they didn't show anything. It seemed a weird incident.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:10 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I still find it a bit odd that you are not as against hamilton given he couldn't get by even when he was on fresher tyres than Bottas at the end. Also concider that every lap Bottas had DRS on Leclerc, Leclerc also had DRS. I don't think either were disapointing, but really couldn't say Hamilton was better this race, even if he had a bit more speed.



I mean, why would I be? He drove a very good race and really made it a spectacle. Hamilton was better as he appeared to have slightly better speed and showed far better racecraft in his window of opportunity. It's clear.

Yea sorry you shouldn't be against Hamilton, but from your wording of "disapointing performance" for Bottas i thought was a bit unreasonable. And I questioned that as I didn't reaally think Hamilton was better. Bottas had the tyre advantage, but I don't think he had any more of a realistic chance to be able to get by Leclerc at the end than Hamilton did several laps earlier before he got his tyres worn.I think they both had a chance but didn't quite get it right, at the same time of LEclerc defending well. Other than when he cut the corner. This to me should have got him the same penalty as Vettel got in Canada.


Why?
Vettels penalty is Canada was for rejoining the track in front of another car, similar to what he got today. He forced Hamilton to brake to avoid a crash.

Leclerc today is similar in no way. Why was it a penalty for Leclerc today?

If Leclerc was going to get a penalty today, then shoving Hamilton off at the Roggia chicane would be a more worthy candidate. Verstappen picked up a 5 second penalty last year for a very similar move on Bottas.

I think the black and white flag was the right decision and I'd like to see such incidents treated in a similar manner in future, but it needs some sort of prior announcement. Instead once again we have the stewards being inconsistent and moving the goalposts at their own discretion.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:11 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
The moment Leclerc locked & rejoined in front of Hamilton. Is it because of the distance between the two (when compared to Vettel & Hamilton in Canada) was a bit more with Leclerc clearly ahead of Hamilton the reason he escaped a penalty?

Source - Imgur


Wasn't Vettel's penalty for joining in an unsafe manner and meaning Hamilton had to get off the throttle. Leclerc didn't do that.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:14 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Bottas had 7 lap fresher quicker tyres at the end of race. Let's look at it another way, does anyone think Bottas could do what Hamilton did for so many laps? I'm pretty dam sure Hamilton would have put up a better fight at the end if the roles was changed.


They both were faster than Charles. But as the commentator said Charles was getting a good run through parabolica which was saving him. There was nothing either of them could do to overtake him

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Last edited by Mercedes-Benz on Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:15 pm 
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Shame on you Natalie Pinkham stoking up false angst with Hamilton, Leclerc did not get away with moving in the braking zone, he got a warning. :thumbdown:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:17 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
The moment Leclerc locked & rejoined in front of Hamilton. Is it because of the distance between the two (when compared to Vettel & Hamilton in Canada) was a bit more with Leclerc clearly ahead of Hamilton the reason he escaped a penalty?

Source - Imgur


Wasn't Vettel's penalty for joining in an unsafe manner and meaning Hamilton had to get off the throttle. Leclerc didn't do that.


That's what I thought. The stewards made the right decision.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:19 pm 
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Vetttel's on 9 penalty points. 3 more & a race ban!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:21 pm 
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Did Leclerc and Hamilton actually make contact in to the second chicane or was it simply not enough room? I can't really tell from the tv coverage.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:22 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
The moment Leclerc locked & rejoined in front of Hamilton. Is it because of the distance between the two (when compared to Vettel & Hamilton in Canada) was a bit more with Leclerc clearly ahead of Hamilton the reason he escaped a penalty?

Image
Source - Imgur

He didn't force Hamilton off the track upon rejoining the track, normally for that incident you would just get a warning, don't do it again, however Leclerc was already under a warning for moving in the braking area and forcing Hamilton off the track.

With that in mind the stewards just said nothing to see there, I think were the race was being staged made a difference to the stewards decision much like they found a way not to delete Vettel's time in Q3.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:22 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
Hmm. Surprised Bottas has been completely impotent when given the chance to hunt down Leclerc. Disappointing performance.

Mercedes might regret not reversing the strategies.

the critisism against Bottas is just silly sometimes. Does this mean Hamilton was rubbish this weekend? Hamilton was basically the same as Bottas was today in Canada. What a disapointing performance... Do I think that? No.

Hamilton couldn't get by today despite multiple attempts, and made mistakes, and it is Bottas you are being against...

Leclerc made a mistake which looked so similar to vettel in canada that i think he should have had the same penalty. Both Bottas and Hamilton made mistakes, But I really can't say Bottas was disapointing. This was one of his better drives this season.


Will also add that every time Bottas was within DRS, Leclerc also had it as well as the ferrari speed, so that will possibly have saved Leclerc.


How was Hamilton today basically the same as Bottas was in Canada?


@TheGiantHogweed

will you answer this please?


My words were not quite clear enough. What bottas did today was similar to Hamilton in canada. Could not pass the ferrari after the ferrari going off track and rejoining in a strange manner. And couldn't for the rest of the race. Leclerc IMO should not have defended when he came back on as he had cut off the corner. he should have rejoined and stayed out the way. Vettel almost looked like he couldn't controle the car and he gets a penalty. I thought both should get one really.

I don't understand those saying Botats wouldn't have been able to do what Hamilton did. Challenge Leclerc for many laps. I mean i agree, but was it a good thing? Hardly. He damaged his tyres and because of doing this, Bottas got by Hamilton - because of this. And it is Bottas getting the critisism despite finishing ahead.

And as i have mentioned more than enough times now, Hamilton could not get by either early on when he was on the same age tyres as Bottas was near the end. Even when Leclerc had no DRS (which Leclerc had every time Botats was in DRS of him) Bottas may have had more of a chance then without Leclerc having a tow.

I think both did about all they could, but so many races when Hamilton underperforms or does a little bit worse than Bottas, Bottas seems to get the critisism of not being good enough. It seems people like being against him.

He wasn't bad at all this race. Both pretty much had an equal chance of getting Leclerc and both couldn't quite manage. Hamilton had the advantage of fresher tyres early on and had several laps where Leclerc had nobody ahead of him. Bottas had the advantage of fresher tyres, but Leclerc had the advantage of a tow every time Bottas was within DRS.

I'm going into this much detail just because I don't get why there are so amny negative things to do with Bottas being brought up when Hamilton has finished behind (which could be considered his fault for puching hard for too long) Even the last race Bottas beat Hamilton in austria, he seemed to get critisised for being useless with defending while Hamilton wasn't so much despite finishing 2 places lower.

Both of them did a decent job and both showed it wasn't at all easy to get by leclerc today.


Last edited by TheGiantHogweed on Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:24 pm 
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Congrats to Charles and Ferrari! Charles got away with some dicey driving, but the F1 gods were kind to him. As Hamilton pointed out, the F1 Gods will NOT be as kind to the experienced drivers. That's one way to bring in a new generation of drivers.

Tough race for Vettel, he had an admittedly terrible race. However, this was good news for SkyF1; the British commentators were in 7th heaven, unable to come up with enough ways to degrade his ability, driving, thinking, decision making, excessive, inexcusable errors, absolute inferiority to Charles...his existence. Thanks SkyF1 for making the day a little more hellish than it already was. :thumbdown:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Shame on you Natalie Pinkham stoking up false angst with Hamilton, Leclerc did not get away with moving in the braking zone, he got a warning. :thumbdown:


Brundle was trying to stir it up post race toom


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:26 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Hamilton raced Leclerc with 1 lap older tyres, 1 compound softer.
Bottas raced Leclerc with 7 lap newer tyres, 1 compound softer.

Bottas did another Bahrain 2018, he just doesn’t have the races edge. I think in all of his race wins he hasn’t made a single overtake?


He's Mercedes' choice for 2020. All the best to them for 2020.


He is perfect alongside Hamilton


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:26 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Bottas had 7 lap fresher quicker tyres at the end of race. Let's look at it another way, does anyone think Bottas could do what Hamilton did for so many laps? I'm pretty dam sure Hamilton would have put up a better fight at the end if the roles was changed.


They both were faster than Charles. But as the commentator said Charles was getting a good run through parabolica which was saving him. There was nothing either of them could do to overtake him


Apart from one driver tried everything they could and the other did nothing.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:28 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Mercedes must be so frustrated. They were faster but just could not overtake. Two races now where Charles finished inside a sec. Ferrari strategy with hard tyres was also good. They deserved the win. Vettel was not happy yesterday when Charles was suppose to give him tow which never happened but still today that spin was pretty embarrassing :blush:


I’m not sure if they were actually faster, they were getting towed along that’s for sure. If you run between 2-3 seconds behind it’s worth 0.4 per lap. Mercedes enjoyed that all race.

They were faster in the 2nd stint but that was due to the tyres being run.


Last edited by Johnson on Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:28 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Congrats to Charles and Ferrari! Charles got away with some dicey driving, but the F1 gods were kind to him. As Hamilton pointed out, the F1 Gods will NOT be as kind to the experienced drivers. That's one way to bring in a new generation of drivers.

Tough race for Vettel, he had an admittedly terrible race. However, this was good news for SkyF1; the British commentators were in 7th heaven, unable to come up with enough ways to degrade his ability, driving, thinking, decision making, excessive, inexcusable errors, absolute inferiority to Charles...his existence. Thanks SkyF1 for making the day a little more hellish than it already was. :thumbdown:


Vettel has done a great job of the himself the last 2 years. He is the driver who just keeps given.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:29 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Shame on you Natalie Pinkham stoking up false angst with Hamilton, Leclerc did not get away with moving in the braking zone, he got a warning. :thumbdown:


Why shame on Natalie? Hamilton agreed with her. He stated that if he had done it, he would have been penalized, whereas Leclerc got away with only a warning.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:32 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Shame on you Natalie Pinkham stoking up false angst with Hamilton, Leclerc did not get away with moving in the braking zone, he got a warning. :thumbdown:


Why shame on Natalie? Hamilton agreed with her. He stated that if he had done it, he would have been penalized, whereas Leclerc got away with only a warning.


Verstappen got penalised for the same thing against Bottas at Monza, 2018 I think?

Here it is-

https://youtu.be/UldsbtzLuyE


Last edited by Johnson on Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:33 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
Hmm. Surprised Bottas has been completely impotent when given the chance to hunt down Leclerc. Disappointing performance.

Mercedes might regret not reversing the strategies.

the critisism against Bottas is just silly sometimes. Does this mean Hamilton was rubbish this weekend? Hamilton was basically the same as Bottas was today in Canada. What a disapointing performance... Do I think that? No.

Hamilton couldn't get by today despite multiple attempts, and made mistakes, and it is Bottas you are being against...

Leclerc made a mistake which looked so similar to vettel in canada that i think he should have had the same penalty. Both Bottas and Hamilton made mistakes, But I really can't say Bottas was disapointing. This was one of his better drives this season.


Will also add that every time Bottas was within DRS, Leclerc also had it as well as the ferrari speed, so that will possibly have saved Leclerc.

Unlike Bottas, Hamilton wasn't given the tyre delta, this is how Hamilton won the race in Hungary, also Bottas clearly wasn't able to put the same level of pressure on to Leclerc.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:34 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Mercedes must be so frustrated. They were faster but just could not overtake. Two races now where Charles finished inside a sec. Ferrari strategy with hard tyres was also good. They deserved the win. Vettel was not happy yesterday when Charles was suppose to give him tow which never happened but still today that spin was pretty embarrassing :blush:


I’m not sure if they were actually faster, they were getting towed along that’s for sure. If you run between 2-3 seconds behind it’s worth 0.4 per lap. Mercedes enjoyed that all race.

They were faster in the 2nd stint but that was due to the tyres being run.


Mercedes were pretty much in DRS zone all the time. He was never able to pull up a gap on them which obviously indicates Mercedes was the faster. DRS zone helps a bit to get closer but you loose the downforce following the car so closely all the time in the corners and it also destroyed Hamilton tyres

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
The moment Leclerc locked & rejoined in front of Hamilton. Is it because of the distance between the two (when compared to Vettel & Hamilton in Canada) was a bit more with Leclerc clearly ahead of Hamilton the reason he escaped a penalty?

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Source - Imgur

He didn't force Hamilton off the track upon rejoining the track, normally for that incident you would just get a warning, don't do it again, however Leclerc was already under a warning for moving in the braking area and forcing Hamilton off the track.

With that in mind the stewards just said nothing to see there, I think were the race was being staged made a difference to the stewards decision much like they found a way not to delete Vettel's time in Q3.


But Sainz forced Albon off the track and was unpunished so surely the forcing off the track is not relevant as a difference? ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:38 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Shame on you Natalie Pinkham stoking up false angst with Hamilton, Leclerc did not get away with moving in the braking zone, he got a warning. :thumbdown:


Why shame on Natalie? Hamilton agreed with her. He stated that if he had done it, he would have been penalized, whereas Leclerc got away with only a warning.


Verstappen got penalised for the same thing against Bottas at Monza, 2018 I think?

Here it is-

https://youtu.be/UldsbtzLuyE


I think Hamilton meant in general, not in every instance. Inconsistent stewarding is an integral part of F1 and I am not sure if there is anything that can be done about it.


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