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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:39 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Vettel is going downhill. Has he in his mind decided to retire at the end of this year?

I expected Vettel to reasonably comfortably beat Leclerc this year. I don't think that now. Not saying that many are saying this on this forum, but I don't like those who imply that the WDCs he had don't show how good he really is. I think he has got worse since then. At that stage when he was in a top car, i think he was at one point right up there at the level of Hamilton at his apsolute best. But he just can't do this consistently anymore. He used to be great, but isn't anymore.


No it is more nuanced than this, Vettel is just a limited driver who only steps up from good to very good when he has a planted rear like he had with his winning Red Bulls. A bit like Button but he was a bit worse, he wanted a planted front too lol ;).

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:41 pm 
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I was wondering when Ricciardo would have over 1000 points in total to his name. I expected him to get there before Bottas based on Bottas's performance last season, But Bottas got there pretty quick at the start of this season.

He has now got 1008 points in total.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:41 pm 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Mercedes must be so frustrated. They were faster but just could not overtake. Two races now where Charles finished inside a sec. Ferrari strategy with hard tyres was also good. They deserved the win. Vettel was not happy yesterday when Charles was suppose to give him tow which never happened but still today that spin was pretty embarrassing :blush:


I’m not sure if they were actually faster, they were getting towed along that’s for sure. If you run between 2-3 seconds behind it’s worth 0.4 per lap. Mercedes enjoyed that all race.

They were faster in the 2nd stint but that was due to the tyres being run.


Mercedes were pretty much in DRS zone all the time. He was never able to pull up a gap on them which obviously indicates Mercedes was the faster. DRS zone helps a bit to get closer but you loose the downforce following the car so closely all the time in the corners and it also destroyed Hamilton tyres


To pull a gap in Monza you need to be 0.5+ a lap quicker to break the tow. Leclerc didn’t have that kind of gap. Hamilton didn’t get DRS once in the first stint, the only time when the race was equal - same tyres.

Second stint, Mercedes were quicker due to running a quicker tyre.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:42 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Vettel is going downhill. Has he in his mind decided to retire at the end of this year?

I expected Vettel to reasonably comfortably beat Leclerc this year. I don't think that now. Not saying that many are saying this on this forum, but I don't like those who imply that the WDCs he had don't show how good he really is. I think he has got worse since then. At that stage when he was in a top car, i think he was at one point right up there at the level of Hamilton at his apsolute best. But he just can't do this consistently anymore. He used to be great, but isn't anymore.


Wow, you thought that Leclerc was only about as good as an old Kimi?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:43 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Sad to see the BBC website has the headline, Leclerc wins in Italy after 'dangerous' defending on Hamilton.

Honestly! Dangerous..... The entire sport is dangerous.


Its a quote though, not an opinion, thats why its got quotation marks.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:44 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Sad to see the BBC website has the headline, Leclerc wins in Italy after 'dangerous' defending on Hamilton.

Honestly! Dangerous..... The entire sport is dangerous.


Its a quote though, not an opinion, thats why its got quotation marks.


Oh, I understand that. It just that as the main headline after the race finished, it seemed the wrong thing to focus on. It was a brilliant battle from start to finish and that's the abiding memory to me.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:46 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Did Leclerc and Hamilton actually make contact in to the second chicane or was it simply not enough room? I can't really tell from the tv coverage.

There was no contact.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:47 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Did Leclerc and Hamilton actually make contact in to the second chicane or was it simply not enough room? I can't really tell from the tv coverage.

There was no contact.


Thanks

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:47 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Vettel is going downhill. Has he in his mind decided to retire at the end of this year?

I expected Vettel to reasonably comfortably beat Leclerc this year. I don't think that now. Not saying that many are saying this on this forum, but I don't like those who imply that the WDCs he had don't show how good he really is. I think he has got worse since then. At that stage when he was in a top car, i think he was at one point right up there at the level of Hamilton at his apsolute best. But he just can't do this consistently anymore. He used to be great, but isn't anymore.


Wow, you thought that Leclerc was only about as good as an old Kimi?


I on the other hand am a bit disappointed the other way, I thought he would be the second coming of Jim Clark but maybe that's just been Verstappen all along when he is driving safely but quickly.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:49 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Shame on you Natalie Pinkham stoking up false angst with Hamilton, Leclerc did not get away with moving in the braking zone, he got a warning. :thumbdown:


Brundle was trying to stir it up post race toom

The Sky team are really going downhill, are they under pressure to make things more exciting?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:50 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
Mercedes must be so frustrated. They were faster but just could not overtake. Two races now where Charles finished inside a sec. Ferrari strategy with hard tyres was also good. They deserved the win. Vettel was not happy yesterday when Charles was suppose to give him tow which never happened but still today that spin was pretty embarrassing :blush:


I’m not sure if they were actually faster, they were getting towed along that’s for sure. If you run between 2-3 seconds behind it’s worth 0.4 per lap. Mercedes enjoyed that all race.

They were faster in the 2nd stint but that was due to the tyres being run.


Mercedes were pretty much in DRS zone all the time. He was never able to pull up a gap on them which obviously indicates Mercedes was the faster. DRS zone helps a bit to get closer but you loose the downforce following the car so closely all the time in the corners and it also destroyed Hamilton tyres


To pull a gap in Monza you need to be 0.5+ a lap quicker to break the tow. Leclerc didn’t have that kind of gap. Hamilton didn’t get DRS once in the first stint, the only time when the race was equal - same tyres.

Second stint, Mercedes were quicker due to running a quicker tyre.


In the first stint the gap was just over a sec. Ferrari went with best tyres they could after pits. May be after seeing Vettel. Had they gone with medium I think both Mercedes would have finished 1-2. It is no secret that Ferrari car is good in straights but they do not have downforce and hence eat their tyres. That was the reason they were shocking 1min behind Mercedes in Hungary.

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Last edited by Mercedes-Benz on Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:50 pm 
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A pretty picture considering how intense their battle was!

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:50 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Shame on you Natalie Pinkham stoking up false angst with Hamilton, Leclerc did not get away with moving in the braking zone, he got a warning. :thumbdown:


Why shame on Natalie? Hamilton agreed with her. He stated that if he had done it, he would have been penalized, whereas Leclerc got away with only a warning.

She never mentioned the warning.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:52 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
The moment Leclerc locked & rejoined in front of Hamilton. Is it because of the distance between the two (when compared to Vettel & Hamilton in Canada) was a bit more with Leclerc clearly ahead of Hamilton the reason he escaped a penalty?

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Source - Imgur

He didn't force Hamilton off the track upon rejoining the track, normally for that incident you would just get a warning, don't do it again, however Leclerc was already under a warning for moving in the braking area and forcing Hamilton off the track.

With that in mind the stewards just said nothing to see there, I think were the race was being staged made a difference to the stewards decision much like they found a way not to delete Vettel's time in Q3.


But Sainz forced Albon off the track and was unpunished so surely the forcing off the track is not relevant as a difference? ;)

IN THE BRAKING AREA, just highlighting the difference.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:56 pm 
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Merc lost the race in the pits, stopped to soon. When you know your car is better on it's tires why would you stop first? Hamiltons best chance was right after the pit stop but both times when he had drs leclair had drs at the same time on a renault. Good race though.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:58 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
Merc lost the race in the pits, stopped to soon. When you know your car is better on it's tires why would you stop first? Hamiltons best chance was right after the pit stop but both times when he had drs leclair had drs at the same time on a renault. Good race though.

Well they allowed Bottas to have that delta but......

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 3:59 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
JN23 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Invade wrote:
Hmm. Surprised Bottas has been completely impotent when given the chance to hunt down Leclerc. Disappointing performance.

Mercedes might regret not reversing the strategies.

the critisism against Bottas is just silly sometimes. Does this mean Hamilton was rubbish this weekend? Hamilton was basically the same as Bottas was today in Canada. What a disapointing performance... Do I think that? No.

Hamilton couldn't get by today despite multiple attempts, and made mistakes, and it is Bottas you are being against...

Leclerc made a mistake which looked so similar to vettel in canada that i think he should have had the same penalty. Both Bottas and Hamilton made mistakes, But I really can't say Bottas was disapointing. This was one of his better drives this season.


Will also add that every time Bottas was within DRS, Leclerc also had it as well as the ferrari speed, so that will possibly have saved Leclerc.


How was Hamilton today basically the same as Bottas was in Canada?


@TheGiantHogweed

will you answer this please?


My words were not quite clear enough. What bottas did today was similar to Hamilton in canada. Could not pass the ferrari after the ferrari going off track and rejoining in a strange manner. And couldn't for the rest of the race. Leclerc IMO should not have defended when he came back on as he had cut off the corner. he should have rejoined and stayed out the way. Vettel almost looked like he couldn't controle the car and he gets a penalty. I thought both should get one really.

I don't understand those saying Botats wouldn't have been able to do what Hamilton did. Challenge Leclerc for many laps. I mean i agree, but was it a good thing? Hardly. He damaged his tyres and because of doing this, Bottas got by Hamilton - because of this. And it is Bottas getting the critisism despite finishing ahead.

And as i have mentioned more than enough times now, Hamilton could not get by either early on when he was on the same age tyres as Bottas was near the end. Even when Leclerc had no DRS (which Leclerc had every time Botats was in DRS of him) Bottas may have had more of a chance then without Leclerc having a tow.

I think both did about all they could, but so many races when Hamilton underperforms or does a little bit worse than Bottas, Bottas seems to get the critisism of not being good enough. It seems people like being against him.

He wasn't bad at all this race. Both pretty much had an equal chance of getting Leclerc and both couldn't quite manage. Hamilton had the advantage of fresher tyres early on and had several laps where Leclerc had nobody ahead of him. Bottas had the advantage of fresher tyres, but Leclerc had the advantage of a tow every time Bottas was within DRS.

I'm going into this much detail just because I don't get why there are so amny negative things to do with Bottas being brought up when Hamilton has finished behind (which could be considered his fault for puching hard for too long) Even the last race Bottas beat Hamilton in austria, he seemed to get critisised for being useless with defending while Hamilton wasn't so much despite finishing 2 places lower.

Both of them did a decent job and both showed it wasn't at all easy to get by leclerc today.


Thanks for explaining your view :thumbup:

I still don't quite get the Canada comparison because at what point did Leclerc rejoin in a strange manner ahead of Bottas today.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:01 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Did Leclerc and Hamilton actually make contact in to the second chicane or was it simply not enough room? I can't really tell from the tv coverage.

There was no contact.


Thanks


Does 'no contact' matter though? If Hamilton had decided to stay on track, then there would have been contact as Leclerc only left about 80% of a car's width of space. That is the whole point with this crowding off the track issue, quite often there isn't contact because the driver on the outside decides to leave the circuit rather than damage their car, so whether there is contact or not, does not lessen the bad driving of the perpetrator, because it is only the quick thinking of the victim that prevents contact.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:05 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Vettel is going downhill. Has he in his mind decided to retire at the end of this year?

I expected Vettel to reasonably comfortably beat Leclerc this year. I don't think that now. Not saying that many are saying this on this forum, but I don't like those who imply that the WDCs he had don't show how good he really is. I think he has got worse since then. At that stage when he was in a top car, i think he was at one point right up there at the level of Hamilton at his apsolute best. But he just can't do this consistently anymore. He used to be great, but isn't anymore.


Wow, you thought that Leclerc was only about as good as an old Kimi?

Given that around 70% of the forum voters thought Vettel would get the better of Leclerc, I don't see how this is an unusual expectation...

There were 4 options. and was one or other driver. Either just ahead or by a mile. Quite a large majority went for Vettel.

There was also under 10% more voted for voted for Leclerc only just beating Vettel vs vettel dominating Leclerc.

Not sure why you are surprised. Most of the forum expected Vettel to beat leclerc.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:07 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Did Leclerc and Hamilton actually make contact in to the second chicane or was it simply not enough room? I can't really tell from the tv coverage.

There was no contact.


Thanks


Does 'no contact' matter though? If Hamilton had decided to stay on track, then there would have been contact as Leclerc only left about 80% of a car's width of space. That is the whole point with this crowding off the track issue, quite often there isn't contact because the driver on the outside decides to leave the circuit rather than damage their car, so whether there is contact or not, does not lessen the bad driving of the perpetrator, because it is only the quick thinking of the victim that prevents contact.

Hamilton might have saved him from a penalty however it's Monza so who knows?

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
The moment Leclerc locked & rejoined in front of Hamilton. Is it because of the distance between the two (when compared to Vettel & Hamilton in Canada) was a bit more with Leclerc clearly ahead of Hamilton the reason he escaped a penalty?

Image
Source - Imgur

He didn't force Hamilton off the track upon rejoining the track, normally for that incident you would just get a warning, don't do it again, however Leclerc was already under a warning for moving in the braking area and forcing Hamilton off the track.

With that in mind the stewards just said nothing to see there, I think were the race was being staged made a difference to the stewards decision much like they found a way not to delete Vettel's time in Q3.


But Sainz forced Albon off the track and was unpunished so surely the forcing off the track is not relevant as a difference? ;)

IN THE BRAKING AREA, just highlighting the difference.


This doesn't make a difference though as the rules state nothing about it needing to be in the braking area. ;)

You could also say that one was into a chicane and the other one wasn't. See how easy that is to make up irrelevant differences. ;)


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:09 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
JN23 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
the critisism against Bottas is just silly sometimes. Does this mean Hamilton was rubbish this weekend? Hamilton was basically the same as Bottas was today in Canada. What a disapointing performance... Do I think that? No.

Hamilton couldn't get by today despite multiple attempts, and made mistakes, and it is Bottas you are being against...

Leclerc made a mistake which looked so similar to vettel in canada that i think he should have had the same penalty. Both Bottas and Hamilton made mistakes, But I really can't say Bottas was disapointing. This was one of his better drives this season.


Will also add that every time Bottas was within DRS, Leclerc also had it as well as the ferrari speed, so that will possibly have saved Leclerc.


How was Hamilton today basically the same as Bottas was in Canada?


@TheGiantHogweed

will you answer this please?


My words were not quite clear enough. What bottas did today was similar to Hamilton in canada. Could not pass the ferrari after the ferrari going off track and rejoining in a strange manner. And couldn't for the rest of the race. Leclerc IMO should not have defended when he came back on as he had cut off the corner. he should have rejoined and stayed out the way. Vettel almost looked like he couldn't controle the car and he gets a penalty. I thought both should get one really.

I don't understand those saying Botats wouldn't have been able to do what Hamilton did. Challenge Leclerc for many laps. I mean i agree, but was it a good thing? Hardly. He damaged his tyres and because of doing this, Bottas got by Hamilton - because of this. And it is Bottas getting the critisism despite finishing ahead.

And as i have mentioned more than enough times now, Hamilton could not get by either early on when he was on the same age tyres as Bottas was near the end. Even when Leclerc had no DRS (which Leclerc had every time Botats was in DRS of him) Bottas may have had more of a chance then without Leclerc having a tow.

I think both did about all they could, but so many races when Hamilton underperforms or does a little bit worse than Bottas, Bottas seems to get the critisism of not being good enough. It seems people like being against him.

He wasn't bad at all this race. Both pretty much had an equal chance of getting Leclerc and both couldn't quite manage. Hamilton had the advantage of fresher tyres early on and had several laps where Leclerc had nobody ahead of him. Bottas had the advantage of fresher tyres, but Leclerc had the advantage of a tow every time Bottas was within DRS.

I'm going into this much detail just because I don't get why there are so amny negative things to do with Bottas being brought up when Hamilton has finished behind (which could be considered his fault for puching hard for too long) Even the last race Bottas beat Hamilton in austria, he seemed to get critisised for being useless with defending while Hamilton wasn't so much despite finishing 2 places lower.

Both of them did a decent job and both showed it wasn't at all easy to get by leclerc today.


Thanks for explaining your view :thumbup:

I still don't quite get the Canada comparison because at what point did Leclerc rejoin in a strange manner ahead of Bottas today.

I was meaning with how he rejoined infront of hamilton. but bottas was the one chasing Leclerc in the end. I know it is different, but i still see some similarities to Canada.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:09 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Vettel is going downhill. Has he in his mind decided to retire at the end of this year?

I expected Vettel to reasonably comfortably beat Leclerc this year. I don't think that now. Not saying that many are saying this on this forum, but I don't like those who imply that the WDCs he had don't show how good he really is. I think he has got worse since then. At that stage when he was in a top car, i think he was at one point right up there at the level of Hamilton at his apsolute best. But he just can't do this consistently anymore. He used to be great, but isn't anymore.


Wow, you thought that Leclerc was only about as good as an old Kimi?

Given that around 70% of the forum voters thought Vettel would get the better of Leclerc, I don't see how this is an unusual expectation...

There were 4 options. and was one or other driver. Either just ahead or by a mile. Quite a large majority went for Vettel.

There was also under 10% more voted for voted for Leclerc only just beating Vettel vs vettel dominating Leclerc.

Not sure why you are surprised. Most of the forum expected Vettel to beat leclerc.


Then they all thought Leclerc was only about as good as an old Kimi, as Vettel reasonably comfortably beat Kimi from 2015 to 2018.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:16 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Vettel is going downhill. Has he in his mind decided to retire at the end of this year?

I expected Vettel to reasonably comfortably beat Leclerc this year. I don't think that now. Not saying that many are saying this on this forum, but I don't like those who imply that the WDCs he had don't show how good he really is. I think he has got worse since then. At that stage when he was in a top car, i think he was at one point right up there at the level of Hamilton at his apsolute best. But he just can't do this consistently anymore. He used to be great, but isn't anymore.


Wow, you thought that Leclerc was only about as good as an old Kimi?

Given that around 70% of the forum voters thought Vettel would get the better of Leclerc, I don't see how this is an unusual expectation...

There were 4 options. and was one or other driver. Either just ahead or by a mile. Quite a large majority went for Vettel.

There was also under 10% more voted for voted for Leclerc only just beating Vettel vs vettel dominating Leclerc.

Not sure why you are surprised. Most of the forum expected Vettel to beat leclerc.


Then they all thought Leclerc was only about as good as an old Kimi, as Vettel reasonably comfortably beat Kimi from 2015 to 2018.

well overall this season, i don't think he has been much better than kimi in general - or bottas. Vettel is just making so many mistakes. And earlier on, so was leclerc. Both have not had a brillient season. Leclerc has had a mix of very good but a few being very poor. but certainly not as bad as vettel. Vettel was better when he was with kimi.If Vettel brings himself togeather and Leclerc still makes the odd mistake like he did in Monaco and Germany, then Vettel still has a chance to get back ahead.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:19 pm 
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Have to say I though Hamilton was wise to avoid Martin Brundles invitation to criticise Leclerc, with his comment that "it got a bit fruity out there". Does anyone else think he is becoming critical of Mercedes tyre strategy.

Good to see the Renaults in 4th and 5th but still a long way back.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:21 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
The moment Leclerc locked & rejoined in front of Hamilton. Is it because of the distance between the two (when compared to Vettel & Hamilton in Canada) was a bit more with Leclerc clearly ahead of Hamilton the reason he escaped a penalty?

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He didn't force Hamilton off the track upon rejoining the track, normally for that incident you would just get a warning, don't do it again, however Leclerc was already under a warning for moving in the braking area and forcing Hamilton off the track.

With that in mind the stewards just said nothing to see there, I think were the race was being staged made a difference to the stewards decision much like they found a way not to delete Vettel's time in Q3.


But Sainz forced Albon off the track and was unpunished so surely the forcing off the track is not relevant as a difference? ;)

IN THE BRAKING AREA, just highlighting the difference.


This doesn't make a difference though as the rules state nothing about it needing to be in the braking area. ;)

You could also say that one was into a chicane and the other one wasn't. See how easy that is to make up irrelevant differences. ;)

If it's not in the rules why did the stewards issue Leclerc with a warning, Hamilton also stated that it's not allowed.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:23 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Vettel is going downhill. Has he in his mind decided to retire at the end of this year?

I expected Vettel to reasonably comfortably beat Leclerc this year. I don't think that now. Not saying that many are saying this on this forum, but I don't like those who imply that the WDCs he had don't show how good he really is. I think he has got worse since then. At that stage when he was in a top car, i think he was at one point right up there at the level of Hamilton at his apsolute best. But he just can't do this consistently anymore. He used to be great, but isn't anymore.


Wow, you thought that Leclerc was only about as good as an old Kimi?

Given that around 70% of the forum voters thought Vettel would get the better of Leclerc, I don't see how this is an unusual expectation...

There were 4 options. and was one or other driver. Either just ahead or by a mile. Quite a large majority went for Vettel.

There was also under 10% more voted for voted for Leclerc only just beating Vettel vs vettel dominating Leclerc.

Not sure why you are surprised. Most of the forum expected Vettel to beat leclerc.


Then they all thought Leclerc was only about as good as an old Kimi, as Vettel reasonably comfortably beat Kimi from 2015 to 2018.

It's actually not true anyway, the biggest percentage thought that Vettel would beat Leclerc but it would be close.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:25 pm 
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Leclerc got very very close to the line of acceptability with his defending and actually probably crossed it. None of us want races decided by the stewards but I think we all just want consistency.

We've seen the black and white warning flag out in consecutive races now for braking zone shenanigans. They should now leave this race alone but make sure to properly clamp down on it in future.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:25 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
I expected Vettel to reasonably comfortably beat Leclerc this year. I don't think that now. Not saying that many are saying this on this forum, but I don't like those who imply that the WDCs he had don't show how good he really is. I think he has got worse since then. At that stage when he was in a top car, i think he was at one point right up there at the level of Hamilton at his apsolute best. But he just can't do this consistently anymore. He used to be great, but isn't anymore.


Wow, you thought that Leclerc was only about as good as an old Kimi?

Given that around 70% of the forum voters thought Vettel would get the better of Leclerc, I don't see how this is an unusual expectation...

There were 4 options. and was one or other driver. Either just ahead or by a mile. Quite a large majority went for Vettel.

There was also under 10% more voted for voted for Leclerc only just beating Vettel vs vettel dominating Leclerc.

Not sure why you are surprised. Most of the forum expected Vettel to beat leclerc.


Then they all thought Leclerc was only about as good as an old Kimi, as Vettel reasonably comfortably beat Kimi from 2015 to 2018.

well overall this season, i don't think he has been much better than kimi in general - or bottas. Vettel is just making so many mistakes. And earlier on, so was leclerc. Both have not had a brillient season. Leclerc has had a mix of very good but a few being very poor. but certainly not as bad as vettel. Vettel was better when he was with kimi.If Vettel brings himself togeather and Leclerc still makes the odd mistake like he did in Monaco and Germany, then Vettel still has a chance to get back ahead.

Leclerc has clearly been so much better than Kimi.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:26 pm 
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At the end of the day, hindsight suggests that Mercedes should never have tried for the undercut. They didn't need to. Ferrari had the faster car but worse tire life. So for Mercedes, stopping first played right into Ferrari's hands. Even had Hamilton pulled an undercut, Leclerc would have the straight line speed to make a pass. Mercedes lacked straight line speed so they should have forced Charles to be the first to pit and then tried to run long to maximize the tire advantage they could have set up for Lewis.

I also thought that Charles was over the limit a couple of times in defense. He definitely failed to leave a car's width into the second chicane there and he also cut the first chicane and, IMO, gained an advantage. I wouldn't exactly say that there needed to be a penalty but if there was one, it would have been justified. Very much on the limit as he was when defending against Max at Silverstone. That's something to keep an eye on. his driving is a bit questionable in terms of safety at the moment. Overall though, you have to take your hat off to the youngster. He was under immense pressure throughout much of this race and he kept his nerve and delivered. That's not easy to do. We've seen his teammate fold under pressure from Hamilton numerous times these last couple of years and Charles today got the job done. That's two wins on the trot for him!

For Seb, this is a disaster of a year. Really, when you combine 2018 and 2019, it is a disastrous 2 year stretch. What on earth has happened to this guy!? Another really costly mistake today; spinning just as he was catching Valteri and then he compounds it by rejoining the track unsafely AGAIN. He has become wildly inconsistent and mistake-prone. Honestly, he needs to get his head screwed on properly or this might be the beginning of the end for Vettel. He'll race in 2020 but I see a lot of uncertainty after that. Now he's trailing Charles in the points and I think the Spa-Monza stretch is easily Ferrari's strongest phase of the season. I wouldn't expect them to be as strong anywhere else this year.

For Lewis, that must have been a frustrating race. The Merc just didn't have the straight line speed to make a pass. He was able to pressure Charles and close right up to him several times but, even with DRS, the Ferrari was just too fast down the straights. Who would have imagined 3 years ago that Mercedes would find themselves outgunned so comprehensively in terms of power!? I do think the strategy turned out to be wrong in the end but going for the undercut wasn't obviously the wrong call in the moment.

Valteri did a solid job today as well and his strategy should have paid off but he was just not able to put the pressure on Charles when he got into the mix. Very underwhelming effort from him in those closing laps IMO. He had tires that were much fresher than either Leclerc or Hamilton and he was unable to do anything with them. That's not to take away from his performance on the day overall though. He was able to run the same pace as the leaders and he looked strong out there IMO. This was a chance for him to do something special though and he couldn't make it happen.

Also solid day for Renault and especially Daniel. Funny how the Renault is basically what the Force India was a couple of years ago. Really good on power circuits but terrible through the corners. For people who don't yet know; Ferrari are in a class of their own in terms of engine performance but the other three manufacturers are now pretty much dead even.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

But Sainz forced Albon off the track and was unpunished so surely the forcing off the track is not relevant as a difference? ;)

IN THE BRAKING AREA, just highlighting the difference.


This doesn't make a difference though as the rules state nothing about it needing to be in the braking area. ;)

You could also say that one was into a chicane and the other one wasn't. See how easy that is to make up irrelevant differences. ;)

If it's not in the rules why did the stewards issue Leclerc with a warning, Hamilton also stated that it's not allowed.


Not just the braking area though, all parts of corners are governed by the same rules and the stewards let Sainz off the hook for a bigger squeeze off the track.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:34 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:

But Sainz forced Albon off the track and was unpunished so surely the forcing off the track is not relevant as a difference? ;)

IN THE BRAKING AREA, just highlighting the difference.


This doesn't make a difference though as the rules state nothing about it needing to be in the braking area. ;)

You could also say that one was into a chicane and the other one wasn't. See how easy that is to make up irrelevant differences. ;)

If it's not in the rules why did the stewards issue Leclerc with a warning, Hamilton also stated that it's not allowed.


Not just the braking area though, all parts of corners are governed by the same rules and the stewards let Sainz off the hook for a bigger squeeze off the track.

I don't believe that's true, no penalty for Verstappen in Austria.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:36 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:


Valteri did a solid job today as well and his strategy should have paid off but he was just not able to put the pressure on Charles when he got into the mix. Very underwhelming effort from him in those closing laps IMO. He had tires that were much fresher than either Leclerc or Hamilton and he was unable to do anything with them. That's not to take away from his performance on the day overall though. He was able to run the same pace as the leaders and he looked strong out there IMO. This was a chance for him to do something special though and he couldn't make it happen.


He only had tires that were much fresher than Hamilton, not Leclerc who had the hard compound. The tires were probably about similar at that point late in the stint.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
This doesn't make a difference though as the rules state nothing about it needing to be in the braking area. ;)

You could also say that one was into a chicane and the other one wasn't. See how easy that is to make up irrelevant differences. ;)

If it's not in the rules why did the stewards issue Leclerc with a warning, Hamilton also stated that it's not allowed.


Not just the braking area though, all parts of corners are governed by the same rules and the stewards let Sainz off the hook for a bigger squeeze off the track.

I don't believe that's true, no penalty for Verstappen in Austria.


But a penalty for Rosberg in Germany 2016 and K-Mag in Hungary 2017 at the exit of the corner under the same rules as we have today.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:39 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:


Valteri did a solid job today as well and his strategy should have paid off but he was just not able to put the pressure on Charles when he got into the mix. Very underwhelming effort from him in those closing laps IMO. He had tires that were much fresher than either Leclerc or Hamilton and he was unable to do anything with them. That's not to take away from his performance on the day overall though. He was able to run the same pace as the leaders and he looked strong out there IMO. This was a chance for him to do something special though and he couldn't make it happen.


He only had tires that were much fresher than Hamilton, not Leclerc who had the hard compound. The tires were probably about similar at that point late in the stint.

No I don't think so. The Ferrari is not as kind to it's tires as the Mercedes. Valteri had the tire advantage with both fresher and softer tires than Charles and he did nothing with it at all. Was not able to even get into DRS range. If we are going to have Valteri sit at the big boys table we must judge him no differently than the other guys up front.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:40 pm 
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Michael Massi's interview with Davidson on Sky cleared a lot of this up. The teams and drivers asked for the black and white flag to be used more rather than having to either issue a penalty or condone the practice. Massi said had there been contact the stewards would likely have given a penalty.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:40 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
This doesn't make a difference though as the rules state nothing about it needing to be in the braking area. ;)

You could also say that one was into a chicane and the other one wasn't. See how easy that is to make up irrelevant differences. ;)

If it's not in the rules why did the stewards issue Leclerc with a warning, Hamilton also stated that it's not allowed.


Not just the braking area though, all parts of corners are governed by the same rules and the stewards let Sainz off the hook for a bigger squeeze off the track.

I don't believe that's true, no penalty for Verstappen in Austria.


But a penalty for Rosberg in Germany 2016 and K-Mag in Hungary 2017 at the exit of the corner under the same rules as we have today.

Rosberg on Verstappen?

That was on corner entry, I don't remember many things that involve KMag.

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2019: Currently 26th

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:41 pm 
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F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
This doesn't make a difference though as the rules state nothing about it needing to be in the braking area. ;)

You could also say that one was into a chicane and the other one wasn't. See how easy that is to make up irrelevant differences. ;)

If it's not in the rules why did the stewards issue Leclerc with a warning, Hamilton also stated that it's not allowed.


Not just the braking area though, all parts of corners are governed by the same rules and the stewards let Sainz off the hook for a bigger squeeze off the track.

I don't believe that's true, no penalty for Verstappen in Austria.


But a penalty for Rosberg in Germany 2016 and K-Mag in Hungary 2017 at the exit of the corner under the same rules as we have today.

Rosebrg was not at the exit. He didn't even try to make the corner. That's why was penalized.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:42 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Michael Massi's interview with Davidson on Sky cleared a lot of this up. The teams and drivers asked for the black and white flag to be used more rather than having to either issue a penalty or condone the practice. Massi said had there been contact the stewards would likely have given a penalty.

It fell short of missing the chicane incident though and how that was ignored by the stewards.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Michael Massi's interview with Davidson on Sky cleared a lot of this up. The teams and drivers asked for the black and white flag to be used more rather than having to either issue a penalty or condone the practice. Massi said had there been contact the stewards would likely have given a penalty.

It fell short of missing the chicane incident though and how that was ignored by the stewards.


You mean when Leclerc missed the chicane? That sort of stuff never, ever gets penalised.


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