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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It started with Vettel in Q3, Ferrari winning in Italy was clearly good for the sport along with earlier wins this year for Verstappen, I understand and I'm quite cool with it, just calling a spade a spade, missing chicanes normally gets a warning to not do it again it's often called a joker card, in this instance I can't help but feel how do you give a warning to a driver that's already got a warning?

I haven't really had a good look at Vettel's positioning in Q3 so won't comment on that. I've offered my view in that LeClerc was more disadvantaged, rather than advantaged by missing the chicane. I'd be more concerned about his movement on Curva Grande just as Hamilton was set to draw out from his slipstream but, as someone has already mentioned, this is still under full throttle so is probably treated as a straight for that purpose.
... or I could be cynical and put the words Ferrari amd Monza into the same sentence...

You really need to look at the pictures regarding Vettel in Q3 then you have to wonder why the lap wasn't deleted and if they can do that then what can they do in the race?

After a (admittedly brief!) search I've had little joy in finding relevant pictures but did read an article stating that, besides the rule that states that a portion of the car should remain in contact with the circuit, the race director's notes for this weekend referenced all four wheels being over the white lines that defines the circuit limit. This ambiguity appears to have saved Vettel in terms of his Q3 time.
... or I could be cynical, etc etc..!
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:01 pm 
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So we are still crying over a qualifying incident? Sheesh.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:38 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
Merc lost the race in the pits, stopped to soon. When you know your car is better on it's tires why would you stop first? Hamiltons best chance was right after the pit stop but both times when he had drs leclair had drs at the same time on a renault. Good race though.


If they stopped later Ferrari would have put on the mediums and cruised home. The fact they stoppped so early gave them a chance to win.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:42 pm 
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Blake wrote:
So we are still crying over a qualifying incident? Sheesh.

Yes let's brush that under the carpet, it's kind of interesting how it might also relate to what happened in the race.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:44 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
spiritone wrote:
Merc lost the race in the pits, stopped to soon. When you know your car is better on it's tires why would you stop first? Hamiltons best chance was right after the pit stop but both times when he had drs leclair had drs at the same time on a renault. Good race though.


If they stopped later Ferrari would have put on the mediums and cruised home. The fact they stoppped so early gave them a chance to win.

Actually the lap that Hamilton pitted Leclerc complained that his rear tyres had gone, he had to pit anyway.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:50 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:
spiritone wrote:
Merc lost the race in the pits, stopped to soon. When you know your car is better on it's tires why would you stop first? Hamiltons best chance was right after the pit stop but both times when he had drs leclair had drs at the same time on a renault. Good race though.


If they stopped later Ferrari would have put on the mediums and cruised home. The fact they stoppped so early gave them a chance to win.

Actually the lap that Hamilton pitted Leclerc complained that his rear tyres had gone, he had to pit anyway.


Hamilton also said, we can’t overcut him, my tyres are gone.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 08, 2019 11:55 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:
spiritone wrote:
Merc lost the race in the pits, stopped to soon. When you know your car is better on it's tires why would you stop first? Hamiltons best chance was right after the pit stop but both times when he had drs leclair had drs at the same time on a renault. Good race though.


If they stopped later Ferrari would have put on the mediums and cruised home. The fact they stoppped so early gave them a chance to win.

Actually the lap that Hamilton pitted Leclerc complained that his rear tyres had gone, he had to pit anyway.


Hamilton also said, we can’t overcut him, my tyres are gone.

Indeed so it's all moot anyway.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:21 am 
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Disgraceful effort from the stewards - this black and white flag business is just utter BS. leclerc pushed Hamilton off the circuit and failed to leave a cars width. You break the rules and get a slap on the wrist and it lets you win the race. How is that a punishment for breaking the rules? When Charles went off the circuit at the 2nd chicane and took the short cut back onto the circuit, he gained an unfair advantage - where was the penalty there?

Very, very, very, very disappointing efforts from the racing stewards at Monza.

If the state of F1 is that boring that racing and wins needs to be manufactured by leniency with regards to drivers breaking the rules, then the sport has really headed down the loo S bend.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:23 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
So we are still crying over a qualifying incident? Sheesh.

Yes let's brush that under the carpet, it's kind of interesting how it might also relate to what happened in the race.


Brush it under the carpet? Poker,you have been making a mountain out of a mole hill for hours on end. Now you cry about it in the face thread as well. I'd have thought all the "dangerous" driving in the race would have kept you entertained without needing to bring up a qualifying "incident".

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:27 am 
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dpastern wrote:
Disgraceful effort from the stewards - this black and white flag business is just utter BS. leclerc pushed Hamilton off the circuit and failed to leave a cars width. You break the rules and get a slap on the wrist and it lets you win the race. How is that a punishment for breaking the rules? When Charles went off the circuit at the 2nd chicane and took the short cut back onto the circuit, he gained an unfair advantage - where was the penalty there?

Very, very, very, very disappointing efforts from the racing stewards at Monza.

If the state of F1 is that boring that racing and wins needs to be manufactured by leniency with regards to drivers breaking the rules, then the sport has really headed down the loo S bend.


I suggest hanging Charles from the nearest Italian tree.
;)

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Last edited by Blake on Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:27 am 
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pokerman wrote:
sidders wrote:
Just watched the race again and definitely think Leclerc should have been penalised. Not for the 1st incident alone but after he missed the chicane he made a double movement to block Hamilton. Didn't think that was allowed without leaving a cars width

Watched the C4 highlights both DC and Webber both called forcing Hamilton off the track a slam dunk penalty, and then when Leclerc missed the chicane they questioned why he wasn't penalised when he supposedly was already on a warning, the warning was really look we did something when really nothing was actually done.


Because the stewards were incompetent, and they wanted a ferrari win on home turf ("great for the sport!"). Sport should be on merit, and not deliberate and illegal tempering with the result by soft penalties. Yes, I am saying this was deliberately done by the stewards at the request of the FIA to ensure that Ferrari won on their home turf. The sport is big business and with waning TV viewers and track attendance, they will do anything to make a $$$$.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:28 am 
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Blake wrote:
dpastern wrote:
Disgraceful effort from the stewards - this black and white flag business is just utter BS. leclerc pushed Hamilton off the circuit and failed to leave a cars width. You break the rules and get a slap on the wrist and it lets you win the race. How is that a punishment for breaking the rules? When Charles went off the circuit at the 2nd chicane and took the short cut back onto the circuit, he gained an unfair advantage - where was the penalty there?

Very, very, very, very disappointing efforts from the racing stewards at Monza.

If the state of F1 is that boring that racing and wins needs to be manufactured by leniency with regards to drivers breaking the rules, then the sport has really headed down the loo S bend.


I suggest hanging Charles from the nearest Italian tree.
;)


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:49 am 
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I actually think the stewarding was very poor this weekend, and this is coming from someone who really wanted Leclerc to win.

* Vettel's time should have been deleted
* Bottas's time should have been deleted
* Hulk should have had a penalty for intentionally cutting the chicane and holding everyone up
* Sainz should have had a warning at least for running Albon off track
* Leclerc should have had to give Hamilton the position after cutting the chicane
* Albon should have got a penalty immediately, not after a long time

And probably some others I'm not thinking of. You don't need an anti-Ferrari agenda to think the stewarding was poor.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:01 am 
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The thing is, the stewarding has been consistently poor for some time. There were some pretty egregious examples this weekend (especially in qualifying), but most of the race incidents that should have got penalties but didn't are of sorts that have gone unpenalized for multiple races already this year - if not for several years - aside from the once or twice that the stewards have actually decided to apply a penalty. It's a problem that's almost impossible to fix at this point in the season, because if the penalties are properly applied for one race, it shows up that they weren't over multiple other weekends in the season. Unfortunately, the best chance for consistency at this point is to apply them only in the most obvious of circumstances. I actually do think that employing the black and white flag is a good idea, but suddenly starting to use it again halfway through the season is also questionable.

Hopefully at some point this will actually be looked at, and some stewarding consistency can be gained - preferably from next season on - by clarifying all of the rules and enforcing them evenly. Perhaps even, where possible, automatically (track limits seems like a prime example for that).

That aside, it was an exciting race. Given the way that rules have been already applied lately, I don't think that Leclerc did anything wrong - or more to the point, no more wrong than other drivers who have already gotten away with similar or worse this season. I don't approve of the way that crowding rivals off the track has become a common tactic, nor that cutting chicanes has been consistently ignored unless a driver actually gained a position doing it, but sadly those precedents have been set.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:06 am 
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Exediron wrote:
I actually think the stewarding was very poor this weekend, and this is coming from someone who really wanted Leclerc to win.

* Vettel's time should have been deleted
* Bottas's time should have been deleted
* Hulk should have had a penalty for intentionally cutting the chicane and holding everyone up
* Sainz should have had a warning at least for running Albon off track
* Leclerc should have had to give Hamilton the position after cutting the chicane
* Albon should have got a penalty immediately, not after a long time

And probably some others I'm not thinking of. You don't need an anti-Ferrari agenda to think the stewarding was poor.


the problem is that the majority of fans are bored with Mercedes dominating the sport, so they are happy to have anything that upsets the apple cart, including bad stewarding. The FIA knows this - Liberty no doubt monitors social media outlets for fan reactions to stewarding decisions (Canada for example) and reacts to this accordingly - i.e. the black/white flag and lenient punishment. Instead of policing the sport to the letter of the rules, they are letting fans emotionally blackmail them into crappy decisions that are NOT in the spirit of the sport, or the sporting rules, so that the fans are happy (with the end results more TV viewers and race attendees and more $$$$$$). I'm not stupid, I'm not naive and I wasn't born yesterday and it is blatantly obvious what is going on.

Now, my crystal ball predicts that as soon as Lewis (or Valtteri) do what Leclerc did, they'll get a proper penalty (as they should), rather than the slap on the wrist black/white flag. There's a reason why Charlie Whiting didn't like it, and got rid of it, and he was 10000000% correct in this fans eyes. Watch this space, for I have called it.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:12 am 
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Exediron, as Toto Wolff said in an interview with Coulthard the stewards were under a lot of pressure and even he (TW) didn't expect them to take away Leclerc's win in a Ferrari at Monza.

The black and white flag is a joke though, how can you warn a driver that the next time he offends he will be penalised then when he does offend do nothing.

The thing is though it shouldn't matter what track you are on. If the rules are broken there should be a fair sanction and a consistent one at that. It just feels to me that the powers said, "lets give Ferrari a break here and balance it up later".


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:31 am 
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Exediron wrote:
I actually think the stewarding was very poor this weekend, and this is coming from someone who really wanted Leclerc to win.

* Vettel's time should have been deleted
* Bottas's time should have been deleted
* Hulk should have had a penalty for intentionally cutting the chicane and holding everyone up
* Sainz should have had a warning at least for running Albon off track
* Leclerc should have had to give Hamilton the position after cutting the chicane
* Albon should have got a penalty immediately, not after a long time

And probably some others I'm not thinking of. You don't need an anti-Ferrari agenda to think the stewarding was poor.

The underlying problem is that the officiating is heavily influenced by fan and media reaction, which in turn is heavily influenced by WHO is getting the penalty and not WHY they are getting it. After the backlash from Canada, the stewards have basically been swallowing the whistle unless it is just an egregious violation like what Vettel did after his spin. No one wants to give a penalty that leads to Hamilton/Mercedes winning; especially not at the home of Ferrari and costing a Ferrari driver the win. The berating and abuse that the stewards received after Montreal and all of the crying from fans and TV pundits created an atmosphere where the safest thing for stewards to do is...nothing.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:44 am 
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As YOU see it, sandman... Not fact, merely your opinion. And that is all.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 1:51 am 
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Blake wrote:
As YOU see it, sandman... Not fact, merely your opinion. And that is all.

A Blake comment!? Must have said something that doesn't paint Ferrari in a glowing light...


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:05 am 
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About what I expected from you, sandman.
:lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:06 am 
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A question about Leclerc to anyone & everyone!

Aren't we seeing a more feisty Leclerc now? I've noticed this change in him after the Austria incident with Verstappen. He had then vowed to change his driving approach in races & not be timid.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 3:19 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
A question about Leclerc to anyone & everyone!

Aren't we seeing a more feisty Leclerc now? I've noticed this change in him after the Austria incident with Verstappen. He had then vowed to change his driving approach in races & not be timid.


I'd agree with that. He learned what F1 is really about... learned it the hard way.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:32 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
The underlying problem is that the officiating is heavily influenced by fan and media reaction, which in turn is heavily influenced by WHO is getting the penalty and not WHY they are getting it.

I think this is true. The stewards have a well known (and a times documented, see Spa 2012) tendency towards being lenient to big names and championship contenders and harsh to anyone who gets in their way.

The FIA stewards are just too timid to do their job. I don't see an overriding agenda in favor of any one team or driver, but I do see an aversion to making hard calls and unpopular calls. They don't want any 50/50 decision being criticized, so they don't make any 50/50 decisions unless it's in favor of the overwhelming consensus (see how they didn't start penalizing Max until the fans started to turn against his driving, and then they briefly penalized every little thing he did before settling down).

Where I differ from you is that I think they'd do the same for Mercedes. I don't see much likelihood that they'd strip a win from Hamilton for a minor infringement either. The Ricciardo/Hamilton battle in Monaco was a very similar incident, and also resulted in no penalty being applied. Honestly, Vettel getting a race-changing penalty for something relatively minor was a shock.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:46 am 
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Hardly post in here but all this chat about the inconsistent stewarding decisions has me thinking there's quite an obvious play for the FIA to attempt to smooth the erratic calls out....

HIRE THE EXACT SAME STEWARDS TO OFFICIATE OVER EACH AND EVERY RACE ON THE CALENDAR?!

It's seems ridiculous that there's a different panel each race ?
Even if they're all given the same rules to enforce there will be slightly differing viewpoints and experiences contributing to slight inconsistency throughout the year.

I like the idea of black & white flag being used to give warnings, amused this is the first time we've really seen it used.
In my eyes it was the perfect call on LeClerc.
Not entirely clean cut on if he left him enough room so just a warning warranted, if he does it again then it's a penalty.
They should be trying to implement this way of interpreting the rules going forward to encourage hard racing.

Some great races of late :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:56 am 
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Exediron wrote:
I actually think the stewarding was very poor this weekend, and this is coming from someone who really wanted Leclerc to win.

* Vettel's time should have been deleted
* Bottas's time should have been deleted
* Hulk should have had a penalty for intentionally cutting the chicane and holding everyone up
* Sainz should have had a warning at least for running Albon off track
* Leclerc should have had to give Hamilton the position after cutting the chicane
* Albon should have got a penalty immediately, not after a long time

And probably some others I'm not thinking of. You don't need an anti-Ferrari agenda to think the stewarding was poor.


The time it took to punish Albon was embarrassing. It's the sort of corner cut/overtake that we have seen dozens of times in the past so you can see immediately after viewing the replay that a penalty is warranted or ideally a giving of the place back is better, (even if it costs the driver two positions to do it), as it prevents drivers deliberately corner cutting to avoid being held up and then paying a pretty small penalty of five seconds later on.

I don't understand why it takes them 20+ minutes in these obvious cases. Something like Vettel in Canada I can understand them taking a bit of time over, but not the vast majority of incidents where it is very clear whether action needs to be taken or not almost instantly. It takes them no time at all to red flag a session or to bring out the SC/VSC, so why is this type of speed not possible for easy-to-spot driver infringements?

So not only are they biased and applying the rules in a haphazard way, but they are also very slow at arriving at their decision making too. Is there anything that they actually do well?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:28 am 
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Blake wrote:
As YOU see it, sandman... Not fact, merely your opinion. And that is all.


Well, quite a fair few UNBIASED fans feel the same way - that the black/white flag to Leclerc was simply not enough of a punishment for the transgression. Hamilton races hard, but he does take pains to leave a cars space for his opponents. Pretty much all of the time in any of the wheel to wheel battles he's been involved in. The same cannot be said for others, especially the younger drivers who seem to think it's dodgem cars sometimes...

Hark back to 2010/2011 when Hamilton was badly punished by the stewards at nearly every opportunity for transgressions far less than what we're seeing now from the younger drivers on a repetitive basis. It really does make you wonder if Hamilton's assertions of racism in the sport were not without some truth...


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:18 am 
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Exediron wrote:
I actually think the stewarding was very poor this weekend, and this is coming from someone who really wanted Leclerc to win.

* Vettel's time should have been deleted
* Bottas's time should have been deleted
* Hulk should have had a penalty for intentionally cutting the chicane and holding everyone up
* Sainz should have had a warning at least for running Albon off track
* Leclerc should have had to give Hamilton the position after cutting the chicane
* Albon should have got a penalty immediately, not after a long time

And probably some others I'm not thinking of. You don't need an anti-Ferrari agenda to think the stewarding was poor.


Vettel: Agree
Bottas: Agree
Hulkenberg: Agree but Vettel & I think 1 other driver cut the chicane on the 1st run with nothing said. Yeah Vettel did the stewards the courtesy of at least making the effort to lock his brakes slightly but it was clearly just a token effort.
Sainz: I think it deserved a more sever penalty as I also believe Verstappen should've been penalised in Austria
Leclerc: Disagree. He gained no advantage over Hamilton. There's a generous catalogue of drivers doing the same & getting no penalty & unlike Vettel in Canada, he didn't impede Hamilton's progress in any way.
Albon: I've watched the race twice & for the life of me I can't remember what he did.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:38 am 
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Leclerc - of course he gained an advantage by cutting the chicane - he kept Hamilton behind him. Had he bailed a split second earlier and taken the slip road he would have certainly lost position to Hamilton Had it happended at Monaco, his car would have been a write-off. So id say he got an advantage whilst already being under a warning. Slam dunk penalty.
Jezza13 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I actually think the stewarding was very poor this weekend, and this is coming from someone who really wanted Leclerc to win.

* Vettel's time should have been deleted
* Bottas's time should have been deleted
* Hulk should have had a penalty for intentionally cutting the chicane and holding everyone up
* Sainz should have had a warning at least for running Albon off track
* Leclerc should have had to give Hamilton the position after cutting the chicane
* Albon should have got a penalty immediately, not after a long time

And probably some others I'm not thinking of. You don't need an anti-Ferrari agenda to think the stewarding was poor.


Vettel: Agree
Bottas: Agree
Hulkenberg: Agree but Vettel & I think 1 other driver cut the chicane on the 1st run with nothing said. Yeah Vettel did the stewards the courtesy of at least making the effort to lock his brakes slightly but it was clearly just a token effort.
Sainz: I think it deserved a more sever penalty as I also believe Verstappen should've been penalised in Austria
Leclerc: Disagree. He gained no advantage over Hamilton. There's a generous catalogue of drivers doing the same & getting no penalty & unlike Vettel in Canada, he didn't impede Hamilton's progress in any way.
Albon: I've watched the race twice & for the life of me I can't remember what he did.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:55 am 
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angrypirate wrote:
Leclerc - of course he gained an advantage by cutting the chicane - he kept Hamilton behind him. Had he bailed a split second earlier and taken the slip road he would have certainly lost position to Hamilton Had it happended at Monaco, his car would have been a write-off. So id say he got an advantage whilst already being under a warning. Slam dunk penalty.
Jezza13 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I actually think the stewarding was very poor this weekend, and this is coming from someone who really wanted Leclerc to win.

* Vettel's time should have been deleted
* Bottas's time should have been deleted
* Hulk should have had a penalty for intentionally cutting the chicane and holding everyone up
* Sainz should have had a warning at least for running Albon off track
* Leclerc should have had to give Hamilton the position after cutting the chicane
* Albon should have got a penalty immediately, not after a long time

And probably some others I'm not thinking of. You don't need an anti-Ferrari agenda to think the stewarding was poor.


Vettel: Agree
Bottas: Agree
Hulkenberg: Agree but Vettel & I think 1 other driver cut the chicane on the 1st run with nothing said. Yeah Vettel did the stewards the courtesy of at least making the effort to lock his brakes slightly but it was clearly just a token effort.
Sainz: I think it deserved a more sever penalty as I also believe Verstappen should've been penalised in Austria
Leclerc: Disagree. He gained no advantage over Hamilton. There's a generous catalogue of drivers doing the same & getting no penalty & unlike Vettel in Canada, he didn't impede Hamilton's progress in any way.
Albon: I've watched the race twice & for the life of me I can't remember what he did.


It didn't happen in Monaco though & Vettel for example never got penalised in Canada for gaining an advantage. He got penalised for re-joining in an unsafe manner. Something Leclerc didn't do.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:58 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
So we are still crying over a qualifying incident? Sheesh.

Yes let's brush that under the carpet, it's kind of interesting how it might also relate to what happened in the race.


Brush it under the carpet? Poker,you have been making a mountain out of a mole hill for hours on end. Now you cry about it in the face thread as well. I'd have thought all the "dangerous" driving in the race would have kept you entertained without needing to bring up a qualifying "incident".

Dangerous driving would be merely your words, clearly my argument is favouritism to Ferrari on their home track which started on Saturday.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:01 am 
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dpastern wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I actually think the stewarding was very poor this weekend, and this is coming from someone who really wanted Leclerc to win.

* Vettel's time should have been deleted
* Bottas's time should have been deleted
* Hulk should have had a penalty for intentionally cutting the chicane and holding everyone up
* Sainz should have had a warning at least for running Albon off track
* Leclerc should have had to give Hamilton the position after cutting the chicane
* Albon should have got a penalty immediately, not after a long time

And probably some others I'm not thinking of. You don't need an anti-Ferrari agenda to think the stewarding was poor.


the problem is that the majority of fans are bored with Mercedes dominating the sport, so they are happy to have anything that upsets the apple cart, including bad stewarding. The FIA knows this - Liberty no doubt monitors social media outlets for fan reactions to stewarding decisions (Canada for example) and reacts to this accordingly - i.e. the black/white flag and lenient punishment. Instead of policing the sport to the letter of the rules, they are letting fans emotionally blackmail them into crappy decisions that are NOT in the spirit of the sport, or the sporting rules, so that the fans are happy (with the end results more TV viewers and race attendees and more $$$$$$). I'm not stupid, I'm not naive and I wasn't born yesterday and it is blatantly obvious what is going on.

Now, my crystal ball predicts that as soon as Lewis (or Valtteri) do what Leclerc did, they'll get a proper penalty (as they should), rather than the slap on the wrist black/white flag. There's a reason why Charlie Whiting didn't like it, and got rid of it, and he was 10000000% correct in this fans eyes. Watch this space, for I have called it.

I agree.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:03 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
A question about Leclerc to anyone & everyone!

Aren't we seeing a more feisty Leclerc now? I've noticed this change in him after the Austria incident with Verstappen. He had then vowed to change his driving approach in races & not be timid.


Almost all the drivers will follow what the rules are perceived to be. Currently, you are allowed to force a car off the track if he tries to go round the outside of you in a corner. Now you are allowed to force a car partly off the track if he is on the outside in the braking zone. It should make it less likely that overtaking will take place.

I'm not sure what the new policy is on rejoining the track in a safe manner.

The good thing about these new rules is that they are secret.

That aside, there have been a series of less predictable races. I wonder if that will change if the new secret rules remain stable and there is less overtaking.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:09 am 
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DirtyMike wrote:
Hardly post in here but all this chat about the inconsistent stewarding decisions has me thinking there's quite an obvious play for the FIA to attempt to smooth the erratic calls out....

HIRE THE EXACT SAME STEWARDS TO OFFICIATE OVER EACH AND EVERY RACE ON THE CALENDAR?!

It's seems ridiculous that there's a different panel each race ?


That has been suggested but dismissed as being 'too expensive', yes I know its hard to believe!


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:10 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I actually think the stewarding was very poor this weekend, and this is coming from someone who really wanted Leclerc to win.

* Vettel's time should have been deleted
* Bottas's time should have been deleted
* Hulk should have had a penalty for intentionally cutting the chicane and holding everyone up
* Sainz should have had a warning at least for running Albon off track
* Leclerc should have had to give Hamilton the position after cutting the chicane
* Albon should have got a penalty immediately, not after a long time

And probably some others I'm not thinking of. You don't need an anti-Ferrari agenda to think the stewarding was poor.

The underlying problem is that the officiating is heavily influenced by fan and media reaction, which in turn is heavily influenced by WHO is getting the penalty and not WHY they are getting it. After the backlash from Canada, the stewards have basically been swallowing the whistle unless it is just an egregious violation like what Vettel did after his spin. No one wants to give a penalty that leads to Hamilton/Mercedes winning; especially not at the home of Ferrari and costing a Ferrari driver the win. The berating and abuse that the stewards received after Montreal and all of the crying from fans and TV pundits created an atmosphere where the safest thing for stewards to do is...nothing.

Unless perhaps it involves Hamilton, the baying of Hamilton blood was all so apparent after Canada and guess what he gets 2 penalties at separate weekends not long after, letter of the law, precedents have been set etc.

Then what did we see with Leclerc's unsafe pit release. just a fine for the team when a driver penalty is the normal outcome, the teams questioned the decision to which the stewards replied oh we made a mistake it won't happen again.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:12 am 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
A question about Leclerc to anyone & everyone!

Aren't we seeing a more feisty Leclerc now? I've noticed this change in him after the Austria incident with Verstappen. He had then vowed to change his driving approach in races & not be timid.

Yeah I was a bit concerned about him after Austria but he has shown he has the steel within him to take the fight to Verstappen in future years post Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:14 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The underlying problem is that the officiating is heavily influenced by fan and media reaction, which in turn is heavily influenced by WHO is getting the penalty and not WHY they are getting it.

I think this is true. The stewards have a well known (and a times documented, see Spa 2012) tendency towards being lenient to big names and championship contenders and harsh to anyone who gets in their way.

The FIA stewards are just too timid to do their job. I don't see an overriding agenda in favor of any one team or driver, but I do see an aversion to making hard calls and unpopular calls. They don't want any 50/50 decision being criticized, so they don't make any 50/50 decisions unless it's in favor of the overwhelming consensus (see how they didn't start penalizing Max until the fans started to turn against his driving, and then they briefly penalized every little thing he did before settling down).

Where I differ from you is that I think they'd do the same for Mercedes. I don't see much likelihood that they'd strip a win from Hamilton for a minor infringement either. The Ricciardo/Hamilton battle in Monaco was a very similar incident, and also resulted in no penalty being applied. Honestly, Vettel getting a race-changing penalty for something relatively minor was a shock.

I think regarding the Ricciardo/Hamilton battle you have to bear in mind that it's now a different stewarding regime, Charlie Whiting wouldn't be someone who would cowtail to the fans.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:17 am 
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DirtyMike wrote:
Hardly post in here but all this chat about the inconsistent stewarding decisions has me thinking there's quite an obvious play for the FIA to attempt to smooth the erratic calls out....

HIRE THE EXACT SAME STEWARDS TO OFFICIATE OVER EACH AND EVERY RACE ON THE CALENDAR?!

It's seems ridiculous that there's a different panel each race ?
Even if they're all given the same rules to enforce there will be slightly differing viewpoints and experiences contributing to slight inconsistency throughout the year.

I like the idea of black & white flag being used to give warnings, amused this is the first time we've really seen it used.
In my eyes it was the perfect call on LeClerc.
Not entirely clean cut on if he left him enough room so just a warning warranted, if he does it again then it's a penalty.
They should be trying to implement this way of interpreting the rules going forward to encourage hard racing.

Some great races of late :thumbup:

Leclerc clearly did not leave Hamilton enough room hence he went down the escape road.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:20 am 
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dpastern wrote:
Blake wrote:
As YOU see it, sandman... Not fact, merely your opinion. And that is all.


Well, quite a fair few UNBIASED fans feel the same way - that the black/white flag to Leclerc was simply not enough of a punishment for the transgression. Hamilton races hard, but he does take pains to leave a cars space for his opponents. Pretty much all of the time in any of the wheel to wheel battles he's been involved in. The same cannot be said for others, especially the younger drivers who seem to think it's dodgem cars sometimes...

Hark back to 2010/2011 when Hamilton was badly punished by the stewards at nearly every opportunity for transgressions far less than what we're seeing now from the younger drivers on a repetitive basis. It really does make you wonder if Hamilton's assertions of racism in the sport were not without some truth...

Well racism apart, Hamilton did venture that things he was being penalised for when he came into the sport is not happening to the young drivers of today.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:15 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
Leclerc - of course he gained an advantage (which you can and do get penalised for repeated offences) by cutting the chicane - he kept Hamilton behind him. Had he bailed a split second earlier and taken the slip road he would have certainly lost position to Hamilton Had it happended at Monaco, his car would have been a write-off. So id say he got an advantage whilst already being under a warning. Slam dunk penalty.
Jezza13 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I actually think the stewarding was very poor this weekend, and this is coming from someone who really wanted Leclerc to win.

* Vettel's time should have been deleted
* Bottas's time should have been deleted
* Hulk should have had a penalty for intentionally cutting the chicane and holding everyone up
* Sainz should have had a warning at least for running Albon off track
* Leclerc should have had to give Hamilton the position after cutting the chicane
* Albon should have got a penalty immediately, not after a long time

And probably some others I'm not thinking of. You don't need an anti-Ferrari agenda to think the stewarding was poor.


Vettel: Agree
Bottas: Agree
Hulkenberg: Agree but Vettel & I think 1 other driver cut the chicane on the 1st run with nothing said. Yeah Vettel did the stewards the courtesy of at least making the effort to lock his brakes slightly but it was clearly just a token effort.
Sainz: I think it deserved a more sever penalty as I also believe Verstappen should've been penalised in Austria
Leclerc: Disagree. He gained no advantage over Hamilton. There's a generous catalogue of drivers doing the same & getting no penalty & unlike Vettel in Canada, he didn't impede Hamilton's progress in any way.
Albon: I've watched the race twice & for the life of me I can't remember what he did.


It didn't happen in Monaco though & Vettel for example never got penalised in Canada for gaining an advantage. He got penalised for re-joining in an unsafe manner. Something Leclerc didn't do.

I didnt say anything about rejoining in an unsafe manner. I said its all to do with gaining an advantage. There is a slip road for drivers who cant make the chicane that takes much longer to driver around but he chose instead to attempt to make it and bailed much later and in doing so gained time.
Under normal conditions, this itself wouldnt have been enough for a penalty but in Whitings day would have been a "dont do it again" verbal warning. As Leclerc was already under an official warning for crowding Hamilton off the track earlier in the race, it should have been an automatic penalty (in my opinion 5 seconds added to race time). As I understand, the purpose of this new black and white flag is to denote an official warning and any further discretion will automatically get penalised. This didnt happen.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:25 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The underlying problem is that the officiating is heavily influenced by fan and media reaction, which in turn is heavily influenced by WHO is getting the penalty and not WHY they are getting it.

I think this is true. The stewards have a well known (and a times documented, see Spa 2012) tendency towards being lenient to big names and championship contenders and harsh to anyone who gets in their way.

The FIA stewards are just too timid to do their job. I don't see an overriding agenda in favor of any one team or driver, but I do see an aversion to making hard calls and unpopular calls. They don't want any 50/50 decision being criticized, so they don't make any 50/50 decisions unless it's in favor of the overwhelming consensus (see how they didn't start penalizing Max until the fans started to turn against his driving, and then they briefly penalized every little thing he did before settling down).

Where I differ from you is that I think they'd do the same for Mercedes. I don't see much likelihood that they'd strip a win from Hamilton for a minor infringement either. The Ricciardo/Hamilton battle in Monaco was a very similar incident, and also resulted in no penalty being applied. Honestly, Vettel getting a race-changing penalty for something relatively minor was a shock.


BIB - it's only been a week since Hubert died after getting T boned at Spa, I can't help but think this was in their minds based upon how he came back on to the track.

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