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2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread
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Author:  Yellowbin74 [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

angrypirate wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
Leclerc - of course he gained an advantage (which you can and do get penalised for repeated offences) by cutting the chicane - he kept Hamilton behind him. Had he bailed a split second earlier and taken the slip road he would have certainly lost position to Hamilton Had it happended at Monaco, his car would have been a write-off. So id say he got an advantage whilst already being under a warning. Slam dunk penalty.
Jezza13 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I actually think the stewarding was very poor this weekend, and this is coming from someone who really wanted Leclerc to win.

* Vettel's time should have been deleted
* Bottas's time should have been deleted
* Hulk should have had a penalty for intentionally cutting the chicane and holding everyone up
* Sainz should have had a warning at least for running Albon off track
* Leclerc should have had to give Hamilton the position after cutting the chicane
* Albon should have got a penalty immediately, not after a long time

And probably some others I'm not thinking of. You don't need an anti-Ferrari agenda to think the stewarding was poor.


Vettel: Agree
Bottas: Agree
Hulkenberg: Agree but Vettel & I think 1 other driver cut the chicane on the 1st run with nothing said. Yeah Vettel did the stewards the courtesy of at least making the effort to lock his brakes slightly but it was clearly just a token effort.
Sainz: I think it deserved a more sever penalty as I also believe Verstappen should've been penalised in Austria
Leclerc: Disagree. He gained no advantage over Hamilton. There's a generous catalogue of drivers doing the same & getting no penalty & unlike Vettel in Canada, he didn't impede Hamilton's progress in any way.
Albon: I've watched the race twice & for the life of me I can't remember what he did.


It didn't happen in Monaco though & Vettel for example never got penalised in Canada for gaining an advantage. He got penalised for re-joining in an unsafe manner. Something Leclerc didn't do.

I didnt say anything about rejoining in an unsafe manner. I said its all to do with gaining an advantage. There is a slip road for drivers who cant make the chicane that takes much longer to driver around but he chose instead to attempt to make it and bailed much later and in doing so gained time.
Under normal conditions, this itself wouldnt have been enough for a penalty but in Whitings day would have been a "dont do it again" verbal warning. As Leclerc was already under an official warning for crowding Hamilton off the track earlier in the race, it should have been an automatic penalty (in my opinion 5 seconds added to race time). As I understand, the purpose of this new black and white flag is to denote an official warning and any further discretion will automatically get penalised. This didnt happen.


Anywhere but Italy, this would have been penalised.

Author:  F1_Ernie [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Leclerc was lucky with his move, lucky it was against an experienced driver who's thinking of winning a WDC, if that was on Verstappen orqu ite a few other drivers the he ends up in a crash and most likely damage.

Author:  F1_Ernie [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The underlying problem is that the officiating is heavily influenced by fan and media reaction, which in turn is heavily influenced by WHO is getting the penalty and not WHY they are getting it.

I think this is true. The stewards have a well known (and a times documented, see Spa 2012) tendency towards being lenient to big names and championship contenders and harsh to anyone who gets in their way.

The FIA stewards are just too timid to do their job. I don't see an overriding agenda in favor of any one team or driver, but I do see an aversion to making hard calls and unpopular calls. They don't want any 50/50 decision being criticized, so they don't make any 50/50 decisions unless it's in favor of the overwhelming consensus (see how they didn't start penalizing Max until the fans started to turn against his driving, and then they briefly penalized every little thing he did before settling down).

Where I differ from you is that I think they'd do the same for Mercedes. I don't see much likelihood that they'd strip a win from Hamilton for a minor infringement either. The Ricciardo/Hamilton battle in Monaco was a very similar incident, and also resulted in no penalty being applied. Honestly, Vettel getting a race-changing penalty for something relatively minor was a shock.


Surely you are not talking about the incident in Monza, that was not minor. It was awful driving and he wrecked another drivers race, penalty was justified.

Author:  kleefton [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

UnlikeUday wrote:
A question about Leclerc to anyone & everyone!

Aren't we seeing a more feisty Leclerc now? I've noticed this change in him after the Austria incident with Verstappen. He had then vowed to change his driving approach in races & not be timid.



Yes, but he needs to tone it down. Right now he is driving just like Verstappen and I think most agree that Verstappen's style is generally too agressive.

Author:  Jezza13 [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

angrypirate wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
Leclerc - of course he gained an advantage (which you can and do get penalised for repeated offences) by cutting the chicane - he kept Hamilton behind him. Had he bailed a split second earlier and taken the slip road he would have certainly lost position to Hamilton Had it happended at Monaco, his car would have been a write-off. So id say he got an advantage whilst already being under a warning. Slam dunk penalty.
Jezza13 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I actually think the stewarding was very poor this weekend, and this is coming from someone who really wanted Leclerc to win.

* Vettel's time should have been deleted
* Bottas's time should have been deleted
* Hulk should have had a penalty for intentionally cutting the chicane and holding everyone up
* Sainz should have had a warning at least for running Albon off track
* Leclerc should have had to give Hamilton the position after cutting the chicane
* Albon should have got a penalty immediately, not after a long time

And probably some others I'm not thinking of. You don't need an anti-Ferrari agenda to think the stewarding was poor.


Vettel: Agree
Bottas: Agree
Hulkenberg: Agree but Vettel & I think 1 other driver cut the chicane on the 1st run with nothing said. Yeah Vettel did the stewards the courtesy of at least making the effort to lock his brakes slightly but it was clearly just a token effort.
Sainz: I think it deserved a more sever penalty as I also believe Verstappen should've been penalised in Austria
Leclerc: Disagree. He gained no advantage over Hamilton. There's a generous catalogue of drivers doing the same & getting no penalty & unlike Vettel in Canada, he didn't impede Hamilton's progress in any way.
Albon: I've watched the race twice & for the life of me I can't remember what he did.


It didn't happen in Monaco though & Vettel for example never got penalised in Canada for gaining an advantage. He got penalised for re-joining in an unsafe manner. Something Leclerc didn't do.

I didnt say anything about rejoining in an unsafe manner. I said its all to do with gaining an advantage. There is a slip road for drivers who cant make the chicane that takes much longer to driver around but he chose instead to attempt to make it and bailed much later and in doing so gained time.
Under normal conditions, this itself wouldnt have been enough for a penalty but in Whitings day would have been a "dont do it again" verbal warning. As Leclerc was already under an official warning for crowding Hamilton off the track earlier in the race, it should have been an automatic penalty (in my opinion 5 seconds added to race time). As I understand, the purpose of this new black and white flag is to denote an official warning and any further discretion will automatically get penalised. This didnt happen.


Was there anything to say drivers had to use the slip road? If not, mute point.

Was it an indiscretion? I cant see how. He ran wide, rejoined in a safe manner & gained no advantage. This action is not unusual in the sport.

Leclerc's actions obviously constituted a non penalty maneuver & as such shouldn't become a penalty offence even if he's already incurred the wrath of the stewards.

If it was legit move when he had a clean slate, it should remain legit. It either warrants a penalty or it doesn't, no matter the state of play..

Author:  Option or Prime [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Jezza13 wrote:
Was it an indiscretion? I cant see how. He ran wide, rejoined in a safe manner & gained no advantage. This action is not unusual in the sport.


I think he did gain an advantage, he cut the corner, if he goes down the slip road he loses the place, thats the point isn't it?

Author:  kleefton [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Option or Prime wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Was it an indiscretion? I cant see how. He ran wide, rejoined in a safe manner & gained no advantage. This action is not unusual in the sport.


I think he did gain an advantage, he cut the corner, if he goes down the slip road he loses the place, thats the point isn't it?


That sort of move never gets penalized though, he did not rejoin in the way of another car, and he did not gain an advantage as Lewis was able to get the run on him through Curva Grande and the next corner.
However, when drivers lock up at turn one they usually use the escape road, which means he would lose the position, but he decided to go over the chicane. Part of me was hoping that he incurred some damage while going over those speed bumps but he actually damaged them and his car was apparently intact.

Author:  Jezza13 [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Option or Prime wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Was it an indiscretion? I cant see how. He ran wide, rejoined in a safe manner & gained no advantage. This action is not unusual in the sport.


I think he did gain an advantage, he cut the corner, if he goes down the slip road he loses the place, thats the point isn't it?


Not if there wasn't an edict issued by the FIA that they must use the slip road. If there was no instruction then it was a perfectly legitimate move & shouldn't be considered for censure. Hamilton wasn't challenging for the corner so Leclerc gained no advantage. I understand where you're coming from & I don't necessarily disagree, but i'm pretty sure the rules been for quite a while that if a driver cuts a corner while not battling for the corner, it's acceptable to safely re-enter the circuit & return to the situation as it was prior to the corner (please don't ask me to look it up. It's 12.30am here & i'm tired but i'm pretty sure i've heard the commentators say it once or twice).

A couple of examples of where this has happened in the past.

Hamilton & Rosberg, no penalty. Verstappen penalised as he was under direct challenge for the corner by Vettel



Hamilton, no penalty.

Author:  sandman1347 [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The underlying problem is that the officiating is heavily influenced by fan and media reaction, which in turn is heavily influenced by WHO is getting the penalty and not WHY they are getting it.

I think this is true. The stewards have a well known (and a times documented, see Spa 2012) tendency towards being lenient to big names and championship contenders and harsh to anyone who gets in their way.

The FIA stewards are just too timid to do their job. I don't see an overriding agenda in favor of any one team or driver, but I do see an aversion to making hard calls and unpopular calls. They don't want any 50/50 decision being criticized, so they don't make any 50/50 decisions unless it's in favor of the overwhelming consensus (see how they didn't start penalizing Max until the fans started to turn against his driving, and then they briefly penalized every little thing he did before settling down).

Where I differ from you is that I think they'd do the same for Mercedes. I don't see much likelihood that they'd strip a win from Hamilton for a minor infringement either. The Ricciardo/Hamilton battle in Monaco was a very similar incident, and also resulted in no penalty being applied. Honestly, Vettel getting a race-changing penalty for something relatively minor was a shock.

I don't agree. Penalties against Mercedes are popular so they are under no pressure to avoid them. There is no backlash when Hamilton gets a penalty. In fact the same people crying about the sport being ruined when Vettel gets a penalty have absolutely nothing to say when the penalty goes against Hamilton. You just hear crickets chirping. Fans basically want the stewards to help make the championship more exciting...

I don't think that there is some overarching conspiracy. It's just that the stewards are not properly protected and they do not want to face the backlash that comes with unpopular decisions.

BTW, the incident between Ricciardo and Hamilton in 2016 was during a year when it was one Mercedes driver against the other for the title. The Vettel incident was far from minor. He ruined another driver's race and could have caused a serious accident.

Author:  F1_Ernie [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 2:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

kleefton wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
A question about Leclerc to anyone & everyone!

Aren't we seeing a more feisty Leclerc now? I've noticed this change in him after the Austria incident with Verstappen. He had then vowed to change his driving approach in races & not be timid.



Yes, but he needs to tone it down. Right now he is driving just like Verstappen and I think most agree that Verstappen's style is generally too agressive.


There was also the incident at Hungary when Leclerc drove across Bottas and damaged his front wing, that was too aggressive.

Author:  shoot999 [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

kleefton wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
A question about Leclerc to anyone & everyone!

Aren't we seeing a more feisty Leclerc now? I've noticed this change in him after the Austria incident with Verstappen. He had then vowed to change his driving approach in races & not be timid.



Yes, but he needs to tone it down. Right now he is driving just like Verstappen and I think most agree that Verstappen's style is generally too agressive.


To me its just a short term gain with very little long time reward. Pre Monza Leclerc had a helpful teammate who I doubt will be doing him anymore favours in the future. And a 5 times WDC who generally plays it clean now prepared to dish it out himself. As some drivers and forumites alluded to in relation to the Max incident at Monaco. Max didn't hit Hamilton, Ham hit Max.
Someday in the future Leclerc will be leading a WDC and he won't be able to rely on his teammate, nor a clean driving Hamilton having a slight coming together at an inopportune moment for Leclerc.

Author:  j man [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 5:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

shoot999 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
A question about Leclerc to anyone & everyone!

Aren't we seeing a more feisty Leclerc now? I've noticed this change in him after the Austria incident with Verstappen. He had then vowed to change his driving approach in races & not be timid.



Yes, but he needs to tone it down. Right now he is driving just like Verstappen and I think most agree that Verstappen's style is generally too agressive.


To me its just a short term gain with very little long time reward. Pre Monza Leclerc had a helpful teammate who I doubt will be doing him anymore favours in the future. And a 5 times WDC who generally plays it clean now prepared to dish it out himself. As some drivers and forumites alluded to in relation to the Max incident at Monaco. Max didn't hit Hamilton, Ham hit Max.
Someday in the future Leclerc will be leading a WDC and he won't be able to rely on his teammate, nor a clean driving Hamilton having a slight coming together at an inopportune moment for Leclerc.

I wouldn't say Hamilton is necessarily a 'clean' racer, he's just wise enough now to know when to pick his battles. Leclerc is not his title rival so he had little to gain and much more to lose by getting involved in a collision tussling for the lead, he's given Verstappen a very wide berth in recent years for the same reason. However he demonstrated on multiple occasions against Rosberg that he'd rather have a collision than back down when his title rival is trying to bully him off the track.

Author:  JN23 [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

shoot999 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
A question about Leclerc to anyone & everyone!

Aren't we seeing a more feisty Leclerc now? I've noticed this change in him after the Austria incident with Verstappen. He had then vowed to change his driving approach in races & not be timid.



Yes, but he needs to tone it down. Right now he is driving just like Verstappen and I think most agree that Verstappen's style is generally too agressive.


To me its just a short term gain with very little long time reward. Pre Monza Leclerc had a helpful teammate who I doubt will be doing him anymore favours in the future. And a 5 times WDC who generally plays it clean now prepared to dish it out himself. As some drivers and forumites alluded to in relation to the Max incident at Monaco. Max didn't hit Hamilton, Ham hit Max.
Someday in the future Leclerc will be leading a WDC and he won't be able to rely on his teammate, nor a clean driving Hamilton having a slight coming together at an inopportune moment for Leclerc.


Confused by the BIB. When did Hamilton hit Verstappen in Monaco?

Author:  shoot999 [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

JN23 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
A question about Leclerc to anyone & everyone!

Aren't we seeing a more feisty Leclerc now? I've noticed this change in him after the Austria incident with Verstappen. He had then vowed to change his driving approach in races & not be timid.



Yes, but he needs to tone it down. Right now he is driving just like Verstappen and I think most agree that Verstappen's style is generally too agressive.


To me its just a short term gain with very little long time reward. Pre Monza Leclerc had a helpful teammate who I doubt will be doing him anymore favours in the future. And a 5 times WDC who generally plays it clean now prepared to dish it out himself. As some drivers and forumites alluded to in relation to the Max incident at Monaco. Max didn't hit Hamilton, Ham hit Max.
Someday in the future Leclerc will be leading a WDC and he won't be able to rely on his teammate, nor a clean driving Hamilton having a slight coming together at an inopportune moment for Leclerc.


Confused by the BIB. When did Hamilton hit Verstappen in Monaco?


When Verstappen tried to go inside at the tunnel exit. Palmer and a few others suggested Ham gave him a little nudge with the back wheel to give him an excuse to straight line the chicane. If you compare previous laps from the actual race you can see Ham taking a different (shallower) line before his back wheel makes contact. Which was the basis for some arguing Hamilton orchestrated it.
The incident at 4:50.


Author:  JN23 [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 7:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

shoot999 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
A question about Leclerc to anyone & everyone!

Aren't we seeing a more feisty Leclerc now? I've noticed this change in him after the Austria incident with Verstappen. He had then vowed to change his driving approach in races & not be timid.



Yes, but he needs to tone it down. Right now he is driving just like Verstappen and I think most agree that Verstappen's style is generally too agressive.


To me its just a short term gain with very little long time reward. Pre Monza Leclerc had a helpful teammate who I doubt will be doing him anymore favours in the future. And a 5 times WDC who generally plays it clean now prepared to dish it out himself. As some drivers and forumites alluded to in relation to the Max incident at Monaco. Max didn't hit Hamilton, Ham hit Max.
Someday in the future Leclerc will be leading a WDC and he won't be able to rely on his teammate, nor a clean driving Hamilton having a slight coming together at an inopportune moment for Leclerc.


Confused by the BIB. When did Hamilton hit Verstappen in Monaco?


When Verstappen tried to go inside at the tunnel exit. Palmer and a few others suggested Ham gave him a little nudge with the back wheel to give him an excuse to straight line the chicane. If you compare previous laps from the actual race you can see Ham taking a different (shallower) line before his back wheel makes contact. Which was the basis for some arguing Hamilton orchestrated it.
The incident at 4:50.



Ah fair enough. That seems a bit of a stretch to me.

Author:  Syholl [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 8:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Stroll: Vettel just hit me, what the hell was he doing...?

Engineer: Are you ok? What happened?

Stroll: let me show you....

Author:  Blake [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Syholl wrote:
Stroll: Vettel just hit me, what the hell was he doing...?

Engineer: Are you ok? What happened?

Stroll: let me show you....

:nod: :lol:

Author:  FormulaFun [ Mon Sep 09, 2019 10:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

shoot999 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
A question about Leclerc to anyone & everyone!

Aren't we seeing a more feisty Leclerc now? I've noticed this change in him after the Austria incident with Verstappen. He had then vowed to change his driving approach in races & not be timid.



Yes, but he needs to tone it down. Right now he is driving just like Verstappen and I think most agree that Verstappen's style is generally too agressive.


To me its just a short term gain with very little long time reward. Pre Monza Leclerc had a helpful teammate who I doubt will be doing him anymore favours in the future. And a 5 times WDC who generally plays it clean now prepared to dish it out himself. As some drivers and forumites alluded to in relation to the Max incident at Monaco. Max didn't hit Hamilton, Ham hit Max.
Someday in the future Leclerc will be leading a WDC and he won't be able to rely on his teammate, nor a clean driving Hamilton having a slight coming together at an inopportune moment for Leclerc.


Confused by the BIB. When did Hamilton hit Verstappen in Monaco?


When Verstappen tried to go inside at the tunnel exit. Palmer and a few others suggested Ham gave him a little nudge with the back wheel to give him an excuse to straight line the chicane. If you compare previous laps from the actual race you can see Ham taking a different (shallower) line before his back wheel makes contact. Which was the basis for some arguing Hamilton orchestrated it.
The incident at 4:50.



That would risk a puncture or something to defend an overtake that was never going to happen tho so it's reaching a bit

Author:  UnlikeUday [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Vettel probably apologizing to Stroll after the race. A sweet gesture nonetheless.


Author:  mikeyg123 [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

UnlikeUday wrote:
Vettel probably apologizing to Stroll after the race. A sweet gesture nonetheless.



:nod: Good on him.

Off track I've always really liked Vettel.

Author:  Option or Prime [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Syholl wrote:
Stroll: Vettel just hit me, what the hell was he doing...?

Engineer: Are you ok? What happened?

Stroll: let me show you....


That really is very funny! :lol: :thumbup:

Author:  FormulaFun [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Great to see, good sportsmanship from Vettel. Many of the drivers wouldnt be big enough to do this

Author:  Option or Prime [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Yes, good sporting manners, just wonder sometimes what happens in the car!

Author:  shoot999 [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

FormulaFun wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
kleefton wrote:


Yes, but he needs to tone it down. Right now he is driving just like Verstappen and I think most agree that Verstappen's style is generally too agressive.


To me its just a short term gain with very little long time reward. Pre Monza Leclerc had a helpful teammate who I doubt will be doing him anymore favours in the future. And a 5 times WDC who generally plays it clean now prepared to dish it out himself. As some drivers and forumites alluded to in relation to the Max incident at Monaco. Max didn't hit Hamilton, Ham hit Max.
Someday in the future Leclerc will be leading a WDC and he won't be able to rely on his teammate, nor a clean driving Hamilton having a slight coming together at an inopportune moment for Leclerc.


Confused by the BIB. When did Hamilton hit Verstappen in Monaco?


When Verstappen tried to go inside at the tunnel exit. Palmer and a few others suggested Ham gave him a little nudge with the back wheel to give him an excuse to straight line the chicane. If you compare previous laps from the actual race you can see Ham taking a different (shallower) line before his back wheel makes contact. Which was the basis for some arguing Hamilton orchestrated it.
The incident at 4:50.



That would risk a puncture or something to defend an overtake that was never going to happen tho so it's reaching a bit


Not that I'm agreeing with the argument but it wasn't to defend the overtake. It was for Hamilton to have an excuse to straight line the chicane and gain a few seconds respite.

My point being that if either Hamilton or Vettel wanted to put manners on Leclerc as payback for what happened at Monza they are both skilled enough to do it and get away with it. In the same way that Leclerc 'forgot' how wide his car was when alongside Hamilton and a plethora of drivers regularly ' couldn't see him in my mirrors'.

Author:  FormulaFun [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

mikeyg123 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Vettel probably apologizing to Stroll after the race. A sweet gesture nonetheless.



:nod: Good on him.

Off track I've always really liked Vettel.


Agreed, vettel is a fantastic bloke no questions about that. Has always came across fantastically in interviews I think

Author:  angrypirate [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Jezza13 wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Was it an indiscretion? I cant see how. He ran wide, rejoined in a safe manner & gained no advantage. This action is not unusual in the sport.


I think he did gain an advantage, he cut the corner, if he goes down the slip road he loses the place, thats the point isn't it?


Not if there wasn't an edict issued by the FIA that they must use the slip road. If there was no instruction then it was a perfectly legitimate move & shouldn't be considered for censure. Hamilton wasn't challenging for the corner so Leclerc gained no advantage. I understand where you're coming from & I don't necessarily disagree, but i'm pretty sure the rules been for quite a while that if a driver cuts a corner while not battling for the corner, it's acceptable to safely re-enter the circuit & return to the situation as it was prior to the corner (please don't ask me to look it up. It's 12.30am here & i'm tired but i'm pretty sure i've heard the commentators say it once or twice).

A couple of examples of where this has happened in the past.

Hamilton & Rosberg, no penalty. Verstappen penalised as he was under direct challenge for the corner by Vettel



Hamilton, no penalty.

If memory serves me right, Hamilton at Monaco actually got a verbal "dont do it again" warning.

Author:  TheGiantHogweed [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Option or Prime wrote:
Syholl wrote:
Stroll: Vettel just hit me, what the hell was he doing...?

Engineer: Are you ok? What happened?

Stroll: let me show you....


That really is very funny! :lol: :thumbup:

although it was a little different. Stroll had the shock of being knocked off and he was in a significantly more dangerous position when stationary than Vettel was. I'm not sure how much more sensible it would have been for Stroll to stay on track with half his car sticking out on the inside of a corner than attempt to get back when he thought there was a gap. He looked to make more effort to look than Vettel.

Author:  rich06 [ Tue Sep 10, 2019 10:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Syholl wrote:
Stroll: Vettel just hit me, what the hell was he doing...?

Engineer: Are you ok? What happened?

Stroll: let me show you....


:nod: or alternatively ..

Stroll: Vettel just hit me, what the hell was he doing...?

Engineer: Copy that..

Stroll: OK then...

Author:  Covalent [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

rich06 wrote:
Syholl wrote:
Stroll: Vettel just hit me, what the hell was he doing...?

Engineer: Are you ok? What happened?

Stroll: let me show you....


:nod: or alternatively ..

Stroll: Vettel just hit me, what the hell was he doing...?

Engineer: Copy that..

Stroll: OK then...

:lol: :thumbup:

Author:  Clarky [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 7:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

shoot999 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
A question about Leclerc to anyone & everyone!

Aren't we seeing a more feisty Leclerc now? I've noticed this change in him after the Austria incident with Verstappen. He had then vowed to change his driving approach in races & not be timid.



Yes, but he needs to tone it down. Right now he is driving just like Verstappen and I think most agree that Verstappen's style is generally too agressive.


To me its just a short term gain with very little long time reward. Pre Monza Leclerc had a helpful teammate who I doubt will be doing him anymore favours in the future. And a 5 times WDC who generally plays it clean now prepared to dish it out himself. As some drivers and forumites alluded to in relation to the Max incident at Monaco. Max didn't hit Hamilton, Ham hit Max.
Someday in the future Leclerc will be leading a WDC and he won't be able to rely on his teammate, nor a clean driving Hamilton having a slight coming together at an inopportune moment for Leclerc.


Confused by the BIB. When did Hamilton hit Verstappen in Monaco?


When Verstappen tried to go inside at the tunnel exit. Palmer and a few others suggested Ham gave him a little nudge with the back wheel to give him an excuse to straight line the chicane. If you compare previous laps from the actual race you can see Ham taking a different (shallower) line before his back wheel makes contact. Which was the basis for some arguing Hamilton orchestrated it.
The incident at 4:50.


As far as Im concerned Hamilton was trying to make the corner.

Author:  FormulaFun [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:54 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

[
FormulaFun wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
JN23 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
kleefton wrote:

To me its just a short term gain with very little long time reward. Pre Monza Leclerc had a helpful teammate who I doubt will be doing him anymore favours in the future. And a 5 times WDC who generally plays it clean now prepared to dish it out himself. As some drivers and forumites alluded to in relation to the Max incident at Monaco. Max didn't hit Hamilton, Ham hit Max.
Someday in the future Leclerc will be leading a WDC and he won't be able to rely on his teammate, nor a clean driving Hamilton having a slight coming together at an inopportune moment for Leclerc.


Confused by the BIB. When did Hamilton hit Verstappen in Monaco?


When Verstappen tried to go inside at the tunnel exit. Palmer and a few others suggested Ham gave him a little nudge with the back wheel to give him an excuse to straight line the chicane. If you compare previous laps from the actual race you can see Ham taking a different (shallower) line before his back wheel makes contact. Which was the basis for some arguing Hamilton orchestrated it.
The incident at 4:50.



That would risk a puncture or something to defend an overtake that was never going to happen tho so it's reaching a bit


Not that I'm agreeing with the argument but it wasn't to defend the overtake. It was for Hamilton to have an excuse to straight line the chicane and gain a few seconds respite.

My point being that if either Hamilton or Vettel wanted to put manners on Leclerc as payback for what happened at Monza they are both skilled enough to do it and get away with it. In the same way that Leclerc 'forgot' how wide his car was when alongside Hamilton and a plethora of drivers regularly ' couldn't see him in my mirrors'.


That would be even stupider to risk a puncture just to cut a chicane? I mean if he was that determined to do it then he would have just "outbraked" himself and cut it like loads of others do - a la Rosberg or Leclerc no need to risk the puncture.

Leclerc has admitted that he intentionally put Hamilton off the circuit, he didn't forget

Author:  shoot999 [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

FormulaFun wrote:

Leclerc has admitted that he intentionally put Hamilton off the circuit, he didn't forget



'I thought I left a cars width. I was pretty sure their was a cars width' Leclerc. On Racefans headline Leclerc 'I thought I left a cars width' for Hamilton.

Hence my 'forgot' how wide his car was. I am pretty sure everyone knew he did it deliberately.

Author:  Lt. Drebin [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

mikeyg123 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Vettel probably apologizing to Stroll after the race. A sweet gesture nonetheless.



:nod: Good on him.

Off track I've always really liked Vettel.

The last gentleman among F1 drivers.

Author:  mikeyg123 [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Lt. Drebin wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Vettel probably apologizing to Stroll after the race. A sweet gesture nonetheless.



:nod: Good on him.

Off track I've always really liked Vettel.

The last gentleman among F1 drivers.


I think lots are gentlemen off track. See Hamilton's post race comments on Leclerc.

Author:  lucifers [ Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:10 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

rich06 wrote:
Syholl wrote:
Stroll: Vettel just hit me, what the hell was he doing...?

Engineer: Are you ok? What happened?

Stroll: let me show you....


:nod: or alternatively ..

Stroll: Vettel just hit me, what the hell was he doing...?

Engineer: Copy that..

Stroll: OK then...


:lol: DEAD

Author:  pokerman [ Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Option or Prime wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Was it an indiscretion? I cant see how. He ran wide, rejoined in a safe manner & gained no advantage. This action is not unusual in the sport.


I think he did gain an advantage, he cut the corner, if he goes down the slip road he loses the place, thats the point isn't it?

Normally a driver does get a warning for doing that especially when under pressure from another driver as in don't do it again, however Leclerc was supposedly already under a black and white flag warning so it was kind of like oh we can't be giving him another warning because it makes the black and white flag seem somewhat meaningless so nothing to see there.

Author:  pokerman [ Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

F1_Ernie wrote:
kleefton wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
A question about Leclerc to anyone & everyone!

Aren't we seeing a more feisty Leclerc now? I've noticed this change in him after the Austria incident with Verstappen. He had then vowed to change his driving approach in races & not be timid.



Yes, but he needs to tone it down. Right now he is driving just like Verstappen and I think most agree that Verstappen's style is generally too agressive.


There was also the incident at Hungary when Leclerc drove across Bottas and damaged his front wing, that was too aggressive.

Yeah forget about that, like has been said since Canada and the backlash from the fans it seems it's easier for the stewards to penalise what's not popular like Mercedes domination as opposed to not penalising what is popular like Ferrari and Verstappen.

Author:  tootsie323 [ Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

pokerman wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Was it an indiscretion? I cant see how. He ran wide, rejoined in a safe manner & gained no advantage. This action is not unusual in the sport.


I think he did gain an advantage, he cut the corner, if he goes down the slip road he loses the place, thats the point isn't it?

Normally a driver does get a warning for doing that especially when under pressure from another driver as in don't do it again, however Leclerc was supposedly already under a black and white flag warning so it was kind of like oh we can't be giving him another warning because it makes the black and white flag seem somewhat meaningless so nothing to see there.

Hadn't he already missed the slip road? He had to go over the extra kerbs and lost momentum such that Hamilton was right on his gearbox through Curva Grande. I wouldn't have penalised LeClerc for missing that chicane as he did not gain an advantage. I'd be more tempted to use his defence on the Curva Grande immediately afterwards as the 'second yellow card.'

Author:  pokerman [ Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

j man wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
kleefton wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
A question about Leclerc to anyone & everyone!

Aren't we seeing a more feisty Leclerc now? I've noticed this change in him after the Austria incident with Verstappen. He had then vowed to change his driving approach in races & not be timid.



Yes, but he needs to tone it down. Right now he is driving just like Verstappen and I think most agree that Verstappen's style is generally too agressive.


To me its just a short term gain with very little long time reward. Pre Monza Leclerc had a helpful teammate who I doubt will be doing him anymore favours in the future. And a 5 times WDC who generally plays it clean now prepared to dish it out himself. As some drivers and forumites alluded to in relation to the Max incident at Monaco. Max didn't hit Hamilton, Ham hit Max.
Someday in the future Leclerc will be leading a WDC and he won't be able to rely on his teammate, nor a clean driving Hamilton having a slight coming together at an inopportune moment for Leclerc.

I wouldn't say Hamilton is necessarily a 'clean' racer, he's just wise enough now to know when to pick his battles. Leclerc is not his title rival so he had little to gain and much more to lose by getting involved in a collision tussling for the lead, he's given Verstappen a very wide berth in recent years for the same reason. However he demonstrated on multiple occasions against Rosberg that he'd rather have a collision than back down when his title rival is trying to bully him off the track.

Agree with everything apart from the last bit, it wasn't in Hamilton's interests to have a collision with Rosberg when 41 points behind in the WDC and he actually drove off the track to try and avoid the collision, however in respect to Rosberg....

Author:  pokerman [ Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: 2019 Italian Grand Prix Race Thread

Syholl wrote:
Stroll: Vettel just hit me, what the hell was he doing...?

Engineer: Are you ok? What happened?

Stroll: let me show you....

Yeah that was kind of funny, didn't he call Vettel an idiot but then proceeded to do a similar thing himself. :)

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