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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 5:41 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Vettel was to the blown diffusers what Mansell was to the Active cars - a driver who trusted the technology and would lean it on. The ground effects will demand a simular belief and F1 will swing back to Vettel's strengths. But ironically, Ferrari may not want him anymore by then.

This I think is spot on. For me the underachievement of the past few years do not diminish the scale of Vettel's achievements at Red Bull, or in any way suggest he's somehow undeserving of those 4 championships. At worst it marks him out as a bit of a one-trick pony, but I've no doubt that given a car that plays to his strengths he would be right up there again.

Many of the greats of F1's past had short careers at the top level and only had to master one "generation" of car. It seems what's changed in recent years that with drivers hanging around for 10 years or more and with technical regulations being refreshed every five or so, the top drivers now require the adaptability to master a wider variety of machinery to stay at the top year after after. This is where Alonso and Hamilton have really stood out from anyone else over the past 10-15 years, as the two drivers who could adapt to anything that the sport threw at them and still look the fastest drivers in the field, and it's where Vettel has sadly fallen short and where Verstappen still has much more to prove to be considered at the same level.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:23 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Vettel has made lots of mistakes for a top driver but a lot of those are errors we would not remember from a midfield driver. Stuff like Canada for example. Or even minor spins in the race. In a years time how many people will remember Grosjean spun at Monza?

Maybe not that one specifically, but people definitely do remember that Grosjean tends to throw results away through mistakes.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 7:07 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mas wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Bring back Alonso.

Indeed, I wouldn't have given Vettel another big 3-year contract in the first place at least not with options, he's done nothing at Ferrari to deserve such a reward. It was obvious to me Leclerc would put some manners on him and said so at the time. Ferrari have screwed up their driver selections as well as their cars since Alonso sillily left on his McLaren fantasy. It was obvious to most that Kimi had lost his youthful consistently high speed a long time ago but they persisted with him, now they are persisting with Vettel who really needs a Newey car to shine.

What he needs is the best car and a teammate who isn't better than he is.


Like he had before. Like Hamilton has now.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 11:21 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
In my understanding, Vettel likes cars with more downforce. All of his mishaps are a copycat of each other. He looses the end of the car. I'm baffled to why Ferrari did not take this in consideration, building the car with more downforce. His domination ended in 2014 when blown difuser, which added more downforce, were banned. Yes, that's his weakness. But give him the stable car in which he will have confidence, and he will be on top again.

I keep hearing this excuse made for Vettel and I just have to chime in at this point. The fact is that these cars have MUCH more downforce than the cars he was driving in 2013. They also have far more mechanical grip with the wider tires.

Yes, but the manner in which they achieve this will still affect a driver the same way depending upon hs preference. Once you reach the limit of that grip you'll lose either the front, rear, or entire car. If the Ferrari is much more 'rear-sensitive' the issue for Vettel is still the same.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:14 pm 
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tootsie323 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
In my understanding, Vettel likes cars with more downforce. All of his mishaps are a copycat of each other. He looses the end of the car. I'm baffled to why Ferrari did not take this in consideration, building the car with more downforce. His domination ended in 2014 when blown difuser, which added more downforce, were banned. Yes, that's his weakness. But give him the stable car in which he will have confidence, and he will be on top again.

I keep hearing this excuse made for Vettel and I just have to chime in at this point. The fact is that these cars have MUCH more downforce than the cars he was driving in 2013. They also have far more mechanical grip with the wider tires.

Yes, but the manner in which they achieve this will still affect a driver the same way depending upon hs preference. Once you reach the limit of that grip you'll lose either the front, rear, or entire car. If the Ferrari is much more 'rear-sensitive' the issue for Vettel is still the same.
Vettel made a remark about his car's behaviour last year, I believe around the time of the Japanese Grand Prix. I don't believe he was making excuses, but trying to understand why his car wasn't as it used to be. In other words, the car as developed by Ferrari, is not the car that he needs. And the problem is that with testing so restricted these days, all he can do is try to adapt. And that costs time, in both senses of the word where F1 is concerned.

It struck me, listening from the grandstands at Eau Rouge in '17 and '18, that both Ferraris made a rumbling sound between the two corners at Eau Rouge (ahead of the climb up the Raidillon), much like most of the other cars. Except for the Mercedes cars, where Bottas's car made a lot less noise scraping the track, and Hamilton's hardly any at all. Rake could be part of the answer, but I'm no aerodynamicist. And when I suggested this subject to Gary Anderson, it wasn't retained. This year, with a different philosophy for the front wings between the two marques, despite the early promise, the Ferrari may be even further away from what Vettel needs. That's nice for Leclerc, but there are no guarantees he won't hit a similar problem sooner or later, as I doubt it is simply a matter of adapting to a car. That's only part of dealing with it.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 11:34 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mas wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Bring back Alonso.

Indeed, I wouldn't have given Vettel another big 3-year contract in the first place at least not with options, he's done nothing at Ferrari to deserve such a reward. It was obvious to me Leclerc would put some manners on him and said so at the time. Ferrari have screwed up their driver selections as well as their cars since Alonso sillily left on his McLaren fantasy. It was obvious to most that Kimi had lost his youthful consistently high speed a long time ago but they persisted with him, now they are persisting with Vettel who really needs a Newey car to shine.

What he needs is the best car and a teammate who isn't better than he is.


Like he had before. Like Hamilton has now.

But not the previous 2 years so that differs from Vettel.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 6:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mas wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Bring back Alonso.

Indeed, I wouldn't have given Vettel another big 3-year contract in the first place at least not with options, he's done nothing at Ferrari to deserve such a reward. It was obvious to me Leclerc would put some manners on him and said so at the time. Ferrari have screwed up their driver selections as well as their cars since Alonso sillily left on his McLaren fantasy. It was obvious to most that Kimi had lost his youthful consistently high speed a long time ago but they persisted with him, now they are persisting with Vettel who really needs a Newey car to shine.

What he needs is the best car and a teammate who isn't better than he is.

Like he had before. Like Hamilton has now.

But not the previous 2 years so that differs from Vettel.

Vettel had that in 2012. The Red Bull was no more the clear best car that year than the Mercedes was in 2017.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:07 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
But not the previous 2 years so that differs from Vettel.

Vettel had that in 2012. The Red Bull was no more the clear best car that year than the Mercedes was in 2017.

I'd say that's fair but I'd say that, for Hamilton, you also have to include 2008.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:15 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
But not the previous 2 years so that differs from Vettel.

Vettel had that in 2012. The Red Bull was no more the clear best car that year than the Mercedes was in 2017.

I'd say that's fair but I'd say that, for Hamilton, you also have to include 2008.

2008 is something Vettel hasn't done, true -- winning in a car that was clearly second best. However, I think you have to balance that with the fact that Hamilton was competing against a second tier driver. Vettel may have had a car advantage, but he won all of his titles with the top drivers of his era in the other strongest cars (with the possible exception of Lotus in 2012/2013).

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:07 am 
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pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mas wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
Bring back Alonso.

Indeed, I wouldn't have given Vettel another big 3-year contract in the first place at least not with options, he's done nothing at Ferrari to deserve such a reward. It was obvious to me Leclerc would put some manners on him and said so at the time. Ferrari have screwed up their driver selections as well as their cars since Alonso sillily left on his McLaren fantasy. It was obvious to most that Kimi had lost his youthful consistently high speed a long time ago but they persisted with him, now they are persisting with Vettel who really needs a Newey car to shine.

What he needs is the best car and a teammate who isn't better than he is.


Like he had before. Like Hamilton has now.

But not the previous 2 years so that differs from Vettel.


There are a lot of differences. Vettel has never been beat by a teammate to the title, so that differs from Hamilton (Rosberg/Button).

But these facts don't prove that either Vettel or Hamilton can only win in specific circumstances (which was the point of the post they were in response to). RBR 2012 was not the best car on the year, so clearly he didn't have to have the consistently best car. And that Macca 2008 was no brilliant contender, so Hamilton doesn't either. However, give them cars like Hamilton has now or Vettel had then and they will give you brilliant returns.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:21 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
But not the previous 2 years so that differs from Vettel.

Vettel had that in 2012. The Red Bull was no more the clear best car that year than the Mercedes was in 2017.

I'd say that's fair but I'd say that, for Hamilton, you also have to include 2008.

2008 is something Vettel hasn't done, true -- winning in a car that was clearly second best. However, I think you have to balance that with the fact that Hamilton was competing against a second tier driver.Vettel may have had a car advantage, but he won all of his titles with the top drivers of his era in the other strongest cars (with the possible exception of Lotus in 2012/2013).

Right, but if he had had an equal driver in the Ferrari then it wouldn't have been possible to have beaten them.

If we compare the 2012 Red Bull to the 2017 Mercedes, then Vettel only just scrapped the WDC versus Hamilton winning it with several races to go. Equally, while the Red Bull was probably on balance equal in raw pace to the McLaren, McLaren outclowned the 2019 Ferrari team that season through their poor reliability, mishaps and bad strategy, so they put themselves out of contention. Vettel only just beat the driver in the third fastest car that season.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Vettel in a slower car should be able to beat an equivalent driver in a faster car - however we've not seen him (nor has he been in the position) in the position Hamilton was in 2008. However I would wager that Vettel probably would not have been able to pull off 2008, given Hamilton only managed it with a single point.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 7:49 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
But not the previous 2 years so that differs from Vettel.

Vettel had that in 2012. The Red Bull was no more the clear best car that year than the Mercedes was in 2017.

I'd say that's fair but I'd say that, for Hamilton, you also have to include 2008.

2008 is something Vettel hasn't done, true -- winning in a car that was clearly second best. However, I think you have to balance that with the fact that Hamilton was competing against a second tier driver. Vettel may have had a car advantage, but he won all of his titles with the top drivers of his era in the other strongest cars (with the possible exception of Lotus in 2012/2013).


Do we consider a 2008 Räikkönen a second tier driver?.....He was, after all, sitting in the other Ferrari, in mathematical title contention until the near latter stages. All said & done, Hamilton had to beat/outperform both Ferrari drivers to win the title.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:15 am 
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SR1 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
2008 is something Vettel hasn't done, true -- winning in a car that was clearly second best. However, I think you have to balance that with the fact that Hamilton was competing against a second tier driver. Vettel may have had a car advantage, but he won all of his titles with the top drivers of his era in the other strongest cars (with the possible exception of Lotus in 2012/2013).

Do we consider a 2008 Räikkönen a second tier driver?.....He was, after all, sitting in the other Ferrari, in mathematical title contention until the near latter stages. All said & done, Hamilton had to beat/outperform both Ferrari drivers to win the title.

Yes. Kimi and Massa were equal during their time at Ferrari. There's a case to be made for Kimi as a first tier driver in his Michelin days, but everything from 2007 on points to him and Massa being equivalent.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:38 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mas wrote:
Indeed, I wouldn't have given Vettel another big 3-year contract in the first place at least not with options, he's done nothing at Ferrari to deserve such a reward. It was obvious to me Leclerc would put some manners on him and said so at the time. Ferrari have screwed up their driver selections as well as their cars since Alonso sillily left on his McLaren fantasy. It was obvious to most that Kimi had lost his youthful consistently high speed a long time ago but they persisted with him, now they are persisting with Vettel who really needs a Newey car to shine.

What he needs is the best car and a teammate who isn't better than he is.

Like he had before. Like Hamilton has now.

But not the previous 2 years so that differs from Vettel.

Vettel had that in 2012. The Red Bull was no more the clear best car that year than the Mercedes was in 2017.

I'm not sure that Vettel would have won in 2012 if Hamilton had been driving for Mercedes and not McLaren, McLaren were a shambles and that's why Hamilton left the team although I'm sure he never envisaged the subsequent fall from grace for the team.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:40 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
But not the previous 2 years so that differs from Vettel.

Vettel had that in 2012. The Red Bull was no more the clear best car that year than the Mercedes was in 2017.

I'd say that's fair but I'd say that, for Hamilton, you also have to include 2008.

2008 is something Vettel hasn't done, true -- winning in a car that was clearly second best. However, I think you have to balance that with the fact that Hamilton was competing against a second tier driver. Vettel may have had a car advantage, but he won all of his titles with the top drivers of his era in the other strongest cars (with the possible exception of Lotus in 2012/2013).

In 2010, 2011 and 2013 Vettel had the kind of advantage that Hamilton has had this year though.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:43 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
bourbon19 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mas wrote:
Indeed, I wouldn't have given Vettel another big 3-year contract in the first place at least not with options, he's done nothing at Ferrari to deserve such a reward. It was obvious to me Leclerc would put some manners on him and said so at the time. Ferrari have screwed up their driver selections as well as their cars since Alonso sillily left on his McLaren fantasy. It was obvious to most that Kimi had lost his youthful consistently high speed a long time ago but they persisted with him, now they are persisting with Vettel who really needs a Newey car to shine.

What he needs is the best car and a teammate who isn't better than he is.


Like he had before. Like Hamilton has now.

But not the previous 2 years so that differs from Vettel.


There are a lot of differences. Vettel has never been beat by a teammate to the title, so that differs from Hamilton (Rosberg/Button).

But these facts don't prove that either Vettel or Hamilton can only win in specific circumstances (which was the point of the post they were in response to). RBR 2012 was not the best car on the year, so clearly he didn't have to have the consistently best car. And that Macca 2008 was no brilliant contender, so Hamilton doesn't either. However, give them cars like Hamilton has now or Vettel had then and they will give you brilliant returns.

I would be looking at the respective teammates for that one, when paired with stronger teammates Vettel's not looked that strong.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:32 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
SR1 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
2008 is something Vettel hasn't done, true -- winning in a car that was clearly second best. However, I think you have to balance that with the fact that Hamilton was competing against a second tier driver. Vettel may have had a car advantage, but he won all of his titles with the top drivers of his era in the other strongest cars (with the possible exception of Lotus in 2012/2013).

Do we consider a 2008 Räikkönen a second tier driver?.....He was, after all, sitting in the other Ferrari, in mathematical title contention until the near latter stages. All said & done, Hamilton had to beat/outperform both Ferrari drivers to win the title.

Yes. Kimi and Massa were equal during their time at Ferrari. There's a case to be made for Kimi as a first tier driver in his Michelin days, but everything from 2007 on points to him and Massa being equivalent.

And both are world-class elites. What's you're point?

That they're somehow lesser than others? All that depends on the cars, preferences, team politics and dynamics.
Look at Ricciardo now… Regarded as one of the very best for a couple of years and in a not so easy/pleasant to drive Renault, he's barely beating a well regarded driver in Hulkenberg. If we compare the 2007-2009 seasons, we can see how Hamilton, Alonso, Massa, and Raikkonen were all pretty damn equal in 2007 and again, in 2008 Hamilton, Massa and Raikkonen were again pretty equal across the board. In 2009 when the cars changed, the Ferrari and McLaren were off the mark to the Brawn and Red Bull, yet Massa and Raikkonen were closely matched for a 3rd consecutive season, and Massa looked to be coming on right up until his accident.

And if I'm not mistaken, Hamilton has been an elite driver from the moment he landed in F1, so that says that Kimi was a top driver even after his McLaren days.
Adam and Jamie say Myth BUSTED.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 1:53 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
SR1 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
2008 is something Vettel hasn't done, true -- winning in a car that was clearly second best. However, I think you have to balance that with the fact that Hamilton was competing against a second tier driver. Vettel may have had a car advantage, but he won all of his titles with the top drivers of his era in the other strongest cars (with the possible exception of Lotus in 2012/2013).

Do we consider a 2008 Räikkönen a second tier driver?.....He was, after all, sitting in the other Ferrari, in mathematical title contention until the near latter stages. All said & done, Hamilton had to beat/outperform both Ferrari drivers to win the title.

Yes. Kimi and Massa were equal during their time at Ferrari. There's a case to be made for Kimi as a first tier driver in his Michelin days, but everything from 2007 on points to him and Massa being equivalent.

And both are world-class elites. What's you're point?

That they're somehow lesser than others? All that depends on the cars, preferences, team politics and dynamics.
Look at Ricciardo now… Regarded as one of the very best for a couple of years and in a not so easy/pleasant to drive Renault, he's barely beating a well regarded driver in Hulkenberg. If we compare the 2007-2009 seasons, we can see how Hamilton, Alonso, Massa, and Raikkonen were all pretty damn equal in 2007 and again, in 2008 Hamilton, Massa and Raikkonen were again pretty equal across the board. In 2009 when the cars changed, the Ferrari and McLaren were off the mark to the Brawn and Red Bull, yet Massa and Raikkonen were closely matched for a 3rd consecutive season, and Massa looked to be coming on right up until his accident.

And if I'm not mistaken, Hamilton has been an elite driver from the moment he landed in F1, so that says that Kimi was a top driver even after his McLaren days.
Adam and Jamie say Myth BUSTED.

How can Massa be considered an elite driver when his career record against teammates was 3-11, likewise with Kimi who was matched by Massa and then beaten easily by Alonso and Vettel.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:22 pm 
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SR1 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
But not the previous 2 years so that differs from Vettel.

Vettel had that in 2012. The Red Bull was no more the clear best car that year than the Mercedes was in 2017.

I'd say that's fair but I'd say that, for Hamilton, you also have to include 2008.

2008 is something Vettel hasn't done, true -- winning in a car that was clearly second best. However, I think you have to balance that with the fact that Hamilton was competing against a second tier driver. Vettel may have had a car advantage, but he won all of his titles with the top drivers of his era in the other strongest cars (with the possible exception of Lotus in 2012/2013).


Do we consider a 2008 Räikkönen a second tier driver?.....He was, after all, sitting in the other Ferrari, in mathematical title contention until the near latter stages. All said & done, Hamilton had to beat/outperform both Ferrari drivers to win the title.


You'd have a hard time convincing many people Kimi was a top tier driver on the level of Hamilton in 2008. Or even 2007.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:46 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
That they're somehow lesser than others? All that depends on the cars, preferences, team politics and dynamics.
Look at Ricciardo now… Regarded as one of the very best for a couple of years and in a not so easy/pleasant to drive Renault, he's barely beating a well regarded driver in Hulkenberg. If we compare the 2007-2009 seasons, we can see how Hamilton, Alonso, Massa, and Raikkonen were all pretty damn equal in 2007 and again, in 2008 Hamilton, Massa and Raikkonen were again pretty equal across the board. In 2009 when the cars changed, the Ferrari and McLaren were off the mark to the Brawn and Red Bull, yet Massa and Raikkonen were closely matched for a 3rd consecutive season, and Massa looked to be coming on right up until his accident.


Barely beating is an exaggeration if you are looking purely at the points table. There is more to the points table than that and if you look at the season in context, Ricciardo has been comfortably in front if not for Renault being completely inept at their strategies. Not to mention Ricciardo has had to change the way he drives due to the different Renault.

He is easily in front of the qualifying battle. Renault botched his strategy in Bahrain (where he was in front of Hulk), in Monaco when he was easily 5th which became 12th and then in Spa (when Renault decided to keep him on mediums ALL race) and cost him points there too. These are some examples. Hulk hasn't done too bad but over the season Ricciardo has had him covered. If he was barely beating Hulk, then they would not have got rid of Hulk or given him a one year extension since Hulk has been Renault's best driver since Ricciardo came along (some of that choice is definitely also politics/marketing as you mentioned).

It is much the same when Ricciardo vs JEV, a lot of fans kept saying how close JEV was to Ricciardo but you look at the context and stats, it was anything but. It is also why RBR chose Ricciardo - they have all the numbers - and if JEV was that good he would have stayed at Ferrari afterwards or gone to another team altogether.

All drivers can look decent but its dependent on a number of factors, the biggest one being the actual car itself whether it lends and suits some driving styles more than others like you've mentioned but I disagree with your assessment re Ricciardo for this season who would have been up there with Sainz easily if it weren't for Renault themselves.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:31 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
SR1 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
2008 is something Vettel hasn't done, true -- winning in a car that was clearly second best. However, I think you have to balance that with the fact that Hamilton was competing against a second tier driver. Vettel may have had a car advantage, but he won all of his titles with the top drivers of his era in the other strongest cars (with the possible exception of Lotus in 2012/2013).

Do we consider a 2008 Räikkönen a second tier driver?.....He was, after all, sitting in the other Ferrari, in mathematical title contention until the near latter stages. All said & done, Hamilton had to beat/outperform both Ferrari drivers to win the title.

Yes. Kimi and Massa were equal during their time at Ferrari. There's a case to be made for Kimi as a first tier driver in his Michelin days, but everything from 2007 on points to him and Massa being equivalent.

And both are world-class elites. What's you're point?

That they're somehow lesser than others? All that depends on the cars, preferences, team politics and dynamics.
Look at Ricciardo now… Regarded as one of the very best for a couple of years and in a not so easy/pleasant to drive Renault, he's barely beating a well regarded driver in Hulkenberg. If we compare the 2007-2009 seasons, we can see how Hamilton, Alonso, Massa, and Raikkonen were all pretty damn equal in 2007 and again, in 2008 Hamilton, Massa and Raikkonen were again pretty equal across the board. In 2009 when the cars changed, the Ferrari and McLaren were off the mark to the Brawn and Red Bull, yet Massa and Raikkonen were closely matched for a 3rd consecutive season, and Massa looked to be coming on right up until his accident.
And if I'm not mistaken, Hamilton has been an elite driver from the moment he landed in F1, so that says that Kimi was a top driver even after his McLaren days.
Adam and Jamie say Myth BUSTED.

Sorry but, unless I'm misreading your post, you're out to lunch on this. Alonso and Hamilton, at this point, have proven beyond any reasonable doubt that they are both far superior to either Raikkonen or Massa. The thing that made them LOOK equal was that the Ferrari was the better car. Considering your obvious familiarity with racing, I'm shocked that you don't realize that.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:57 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Vettel had that in 2012. The Red Bull was no more the clear best car that year than the Mercedes was in 2017.

I'm not sure that Vettel would have won in 2012 if Hamilton had been driving for Mercedes and not McLaren, McLaren were a shambles and that's why Hamilton left the team although I'm sure he never envisaged the subsequent fall from grace for the team.

Really? So you think Hamilton would have somehow been able to score three times Nico Rosberg's points, despite the fact that in reality when he had just joined the team a year later he barely beat Rosberg at all?

Sorry, but I don't buy that. Mercedes were not ready to challenge for the WDC in 2012 no matter who was driving that car.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 6:59 pm 
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;) There's a space at Williams for next year.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:36 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Vettel had that in 2012. The Red Bull was no more the clear best car that year than the Mercedes was in 2017.

I'm not sure that Vettel would have won in 2012 if Hamilton had been driving for Mercedes and not McLaren, McLaren were a shambles and that's why Hamilton left the team although I'm sure he never envisaged the subsequent fall from grace for the team.

Really? So you think Hamilton would have somehow been able to score three times Nico Rosberg's points, despite the fact that in reality when he had just joined the team a year later he barely beat Rosberg at all?

Sorry, but I don't buy that. Mercedes were not ready to challenge for the WDC in 2012 no matter who was driving that car.

I meant operational wise comparing how Mercedes operate today to how McLaren operated in 2012, McLaren had a WDC capable car but not a WDC capable team.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 4:26 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
But not the previous 2 years so that differs from Vettel.

Vettel had that in 2012. The Red Bull was no more the clear best car that year than the Mercedes was in 2017.

I'd say that's fair but I'd say that, for Hamilton, you also have to include 2008.

2008 is something Vettel hasn't done, true -- winning in a car that was clearly second best. However, I think you have to balance that with the fact that Hamilton was competing against a second tier driver.Vettel may have had a car advantage, but he won all of his titles with the top drivers of his era in the other strongest cars (with the possible exception of Lotus in 2012/2013).

[color=#000057]Right, but if he had had an equal driver in the Ferrari then it wouldn't have been possible to have beaten them.

If we compare the 2012 Red Bull to the 2017 Mercedes, then Vettel only just scrapped the WDC versus Hamilton winning it with several races to go. Equally, while the Red Bull was probably on balance equal in raw pace to the McLaren, McLaren outclowned the 2019 Ferrari team that season through their poor reliability, mishaps and bad strategy, so they put themselves out of contention. Vettel only just beat the driver in the third fastest car that season.


Those cars are not comparable. The 2012 RBR was a dog the first half of the season. Vettel went into the break 40+ points behind Alonso. The reason he scraped by was because the Ferrari suffered in the second half when the Red Bull found her sails.

pokerman wrote:
I would be looking at the respective teammates for that one, when paired with stronger teammates Vettel's not looked that strong.


Heikki Kovalainen was not as talented as Mark Webber. Mark, Nico and Jenson were pretty comprable.

But I don't think teammates is the proper measure. I would look at the actual contenders, all of whom were pretty strong for both Hamilton and Vettel in those years we had close racing.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 5:53 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Vettel had that in 2012. The Red Bull was no more the clear best car that year than the Mercedes was in 2017.

I'd say that's fair but I'd say that, for Hamilton, you also have to include 2008.

2008 is something Vettel hasn't done, true -- winning in a car that was clearly second best. However, I think you have to balance that with the fact that Hamilton was competing against a second tier driver.Vettel may have had a car advantage, but he won all of his titles with the top drivers of his era in the other strongest cars (with the possible exception of Lotus in 2012/2013).

[color=#000057]Right, but if he had had an equal driver in the Ferrari then it wouldn't have been possible to have beaten them.

If we compare the 2012 Red Bull to the 2017 Mercedes, then Vettel only just scrapped the WDC versus Hamilton winning it with several races to go. Equally, while the Red Bull was probably on balance equal in raw pace to the McLaren, McLaren outclowned the 2019 Ferrari team that season through their poor reliability, mishaps and bad strategy, so they put themselves out of contention. Vettel only just beat the driver in the third fastest car that season.


Those cars are not comparable. The 2012 RBR was a dog the first half of the season. Vettel went into the break 40+ points behind Alonso. The reason he scraped by was because the Ferrari suffered in the second half when the Red Bull found her sails.

pokerman wrote:
I would be looking at the respective teammates for that one, when paired with stronger teammates Vettel's not looked that strong.


Heikki Kovalainen was not as talented as Mark Webber. Mark, Nico and Jenson were pretty comprable.

But I don't think teammates is the proper measure. I would look at the actual contenders, all of whom were pretty strong for both Hamilton and Vettel in those years we had close racing.


The Red Bull was way better than the Ferrari in the first half of the season. The Ferrari actually improved in the second half.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 20, 2019 12:07 pm 
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bourbon19 wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Vettel had that in 2012. The Red Bull was no more the clear best car that year than the Mercedes was in 2017.

I'd say that's fair but I'd say that, for Hamilton, you also have to include 2008.

2008 is something Vettel hasn't done, true -- winning in a car that was clearly second best. However, I think you have to balance that with the fact that Hamilton was competing against a second tier driver.Vettel may have had a car advantage, but he won all of his titles with the top drivers of his era in the other strongest cars (with the possible exception of Lotus in 2012/2013).

[color=#000057]Right, but if he had had an equal driver in the Ferrari then it wouldn't have been possible to have beaten them.

If we compare the 2012 Red Bull to the 2017 Mercedes, then Vettel only just scrapped the WDC versus Hamilton winning it with several races to go. Equally, while the Red Bull was probably on balance equal in raw pace to the McLaren, McLaren outclowned the 2019 Ferrari team that season through their poor reliability, mishaps and bad strategy, so they put themselves out of contention. Vettel only just beat the driver in the third fastest car that season.


Those cars are not comparable. The 2012 RBR was a dog the first half of the season. Vettel went into the break 40+ points behind Alonso. The reason he scraped by was because the Ferrari suffered in the second half when the Red Bull found her sails.

pokerman wrote:
I would be looking at the respective teammates for that one, when paired with stronger teammates Vettel's not looked that strong.


Heikki Kovalainen was not as talented as Mark Webber. Mark, Nico and Jenson were pretty comprable.

But I don't think teammates is the proper measure. I would look at the actual contenders, all of whom were pretty strong for both Hamilton and Vettel in those years we had close racing.

2012 apart Vettel had a clear car advantage in 2010, 2011 and 2013, 2010 should have been won really as easily as 2011 and 2013.

I think we can now reflect on how good Webber was, about Kimi/Massa level but not as good as Button/Rosberg.

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