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The best 10 F1 drivers ever
Alonso 7%  7%  [ 22 ]
Ascari 4%  4%  [ 15 ]
Brabham, J 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
Clark 11%  11%  [ 38 ]
Fangio 9%  9%  [ 30 ]
Fittipaldi 1%  1%  [ 4 ]
Hakkinen 1%  1%  [ 4 ]
Hamilton 10%  10%  [ 34 ]
Hill, D 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Hill, G 2%  2%  [ 6 ]
Lauda 7%  7%  [ 24 ]
Mansell 1%  1%  [ 5 ]
Moss 5%  5%  [ 17 ]
Piquet 1%  1%  [ 3 ]
Prost 9%  9%  [ 31 ]
Rosberg, N 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Schumacher 11%  11%  [ 37 ]
Senna 10%  10%  [ 35 ]
Stewart 7%  7%  [ 24 ]
Vettel 1%  1%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 338
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:15 pm 
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Last year I produced a statistical F1 analysis to list and rank the greatest F1 drivers. This met with varying levels of disapproval, so I thought I'd put the question to a vote of P-F1 forum users, and see how the 2 lists compare.

I have included the most successful 20 drivers according to my stats, hopefully there are no obvious omissions. So please select your all-time top 10 from these and vote for them. I'm sure the results will be interesting!

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 4:46 am 
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I have a solid top six, which is:

Clark
Fangio
Prost
Schumacher
Senna
Stewart

To round it out to ten, I've ended up including:

Alonso
Hamilton
Lauda
Moss

I feel like I've snubbed Ascari, but I couldn't decide which of Alonso, Moss or Lauda to drop for him, so he stays out of my top ten.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:30 am 
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Totally subjective.

The early days it was a bunch of wealthy gentlemen and hobbyists, with the caveat that any error could - and often did - kill you.
Today we have uber professionalism and full time staff, much improved safety, and no stone left unturned.

It is barely a comparable sport at he extremes of time.

Being in the right car at the right time is a huge part of how drivers are perceived too.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:53 am 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
Totally subjective.

The early days it was a bunch of wealthy gentlemen and hobbyists, with the caveat that any error could - and often did - kill you.
Today we have uber professionalism and full time staff, much improved safety, and no stone left unturned.

It is barely a comparable sport at he extremes of time.

Being in the right car at the right time is a huge part of how drivers are perceived too.

That's why I see it as basically the best of each era. So my actual list would be:

Fangio (Moss)
Clark
Stewart
Senna (Prost)
Schumacher
Hamilton (Alonso)

You really can't compare the greats from one era to another, for all the reasons you mentioned. But that's true of any sport: objectively, any decent player today is probably better than the greats of the 60s. That's just how sports evolution has worked, and F1 is no different.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:37 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
Totally subjective.

The early days it was a bunch of wealthy gentlemen and hobbyists, with the caveat that any error could - and often did - kill you.
Today we have uber professionalism and full time staff, much improved safety, and no stone left unturned.

It is barely a comparable sport at he extremes of time.

Being in the right car at the right time is a huge part of how drivers are perceived too.

That's why I see it as basically the best of each era. So my actual list would be:

Fangio (Moss)
Clark
Stewart
Senna (Prost)
Schumacher
Hamilton (Alonso)

You really can't compare the greats from one era to another, for all the reasons you mentioned. But that's true of any sport: objectively, any decent player today is probably better than the greats of the 60s. That's just how sports evolution has worked, and F1 is no different.


Came here to say this. F1 changes so much, even from era to era, that it's impossible to have a 'best of all-time'. I would even go further than what you've said and argue that F1 changes more from era to era than a lot of other sports. Sure, the likes of football, tennis, ice hockey etc., have been improved by player conditioning, safety (rules and player protection), equipment etc., but it's a lot easier to compare Pele to Messi, Gretzky to McDavid, Sampras to Federer, because the fundamentals haven't changed. With F1, comparing what Jackie Stewart drove to what Hamilton has today, it's almost an entirely different sport.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:30 am 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
Totally subjective.

The early days it was a bunch of wealthy gentlemen and hobbyists, with the caveat that any error could - and often did - kill you.
Today we have uber professionalism and full time staff, much improved safety, and no stone left unturned.

It is barely a comparable sport at he extremes of time.

Being in the right car at the right time is a huge part of how drivers are perceived too.

That's why I see it as basically the best of each era. So my actual list would be:

Fangio (Moss)
Clark
Stewart
Senna (Prost)
Schumacher
Hamilton (Alonso)

You really can't compare the greats from one era to another, for all the reasons you mentioned. But that's true of any sport: objectively, any decent player today is probably better than the greats of the 60s. That's just how sports evolution has worked, and F1 is no different.


Came here to say this. F1 changes so much, even from era to era, that it's impossible to have a 'best of all-time'. I would even go further than what you've said and argue that F1 changes more from era to era than a lot of other sports. Sure, the likes of football, tennis, ice hockey etc., have been improved by player conditioning, safety (rules and player protection), equipment etc., but it's a lot easier to compare Pele to Messi, Gretzky to McDavid, Sampras to Federer, because the fundamentals haven't changed. With F1, comparing what Jackie Stewart drove to what Hamilton has today, it's almost an entirely different sport.


Getting into modern F1 needs the stars to align - unlike almost every sport, the pool of talent in tiny as so few people get the chance. If somebody is talented at football, they'll be given every chance to make it at football. Not so with motorsport - unless you have enough money and family willing to support and back you at 7 or 8 years old. I'd say the majority of people who start out in motorsport are at least 30 years old.

I don't think it was as difficult in days gone by, for example Jim Clark was 20 yrs old before his first competitive motorsport and he got recognised at grass root level hill climbs driving cars he prepared himself - if Jim Clark was around today, he'd probably be stuck at club level racing and minor championships. There is absolutely no chance of somebody coming the Clark route into F1 these days, you might get to GT level or touring cars if you have backing and talent - big emphasis on backing though. I don't think the professionalism or standard in days gone by was anything like today, however there was an easier route to F1.

I often lament in the paddock of local motor sport events, who - if anyone - could have made it if they had backing at 8yrs old and had 20-30 years of experience under their belt, instead of just starting out.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:38 am 
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Best is much harder to work out than greatest. For all we know the best only got one race at the back and was never seen again. Greatest you can factor in things like success and impact on the sport which makes it a bit more straight forward.

My list for best would probably be this -

Schumacher
Senna
Clark
Fangio
Alonso
Prost
Hamilton
Stewart
Ascari
Moss

I feel like the list is biased in favour of earlier years.

3 from the 50s
1 from the 60s
1 from the 70s
1 from the 80s
1 from the 90s
2 from the 00s
1 from the 10s

But I can't really justify anyone else inclusion. Lauda would definitely make the top 10 greatest. Alonso would be lower down and Prost higher up.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:30 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Best is much harder to work out than greatest. For all we know the best only got one race at the back and was never seen again. Greatest you can factor in things like success and impact on the sport which makes it a bit more straight forward.


I wasn't sure whether to use 'best' or 'greatest' as the criterion. Personally I'm choosing those who were most outstanding in terms of beating their contemporaries and achieving results given their equipment. Hence as in any sport I think you can compare across the decades. But it's ultimately subjective, so use whatever rules you like!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:34 pm 
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I think I saw the same topic on here in 2012. With the same votes from the same guys. So nothing has really changed. 😉


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:39 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
I think I saw the same topic on here in 2012. With the same votes from the same guys. So nothing has really changed. 😉


Well I wasn't on here in 2012!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:40 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Badgeronimous wrote:
Totally subjective.

The early days it was a bunch of wealthy gentlemen and hobbyists, with the caveat that any error could - and often did - kill you.
Today we have uber professionalism and full time staff, much improved safety, and no stone left unturned.

It is barely a comparable sport at he extremes of time.

Being in the right car at the right time is a huge part of how drivers are perceived too.

That's why I see it as basically the best of each era. So my actual list would be:

Fangio (Moss)
Clark
Stewart
Senna (Prost)
Schumacher
Hamilton (Alonso)

You really can't compare the greats from one era to another, for all the reasons you mentioned. But that's true of any sport: objectively, any decent player today is probably better than the greats of the 60s. That's just how sports evolution has worked, and F1 is no different.

That's how I went about doing it as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:43 pm 
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I'm confused by the voting it's like some people have not picked a top 10 but instead have gone with the thread title which is contrary to the actual poll.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:00 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I'm confused by the voting it's like some people have not picked a top 10 but instead have gone with the thread title which is contrary to the actual poll.


When I say 'best' I'm assuming we can reach a group consensus by adding all the votes. 10 votes each instead of 1 will I think give a fuller picture - eg. if we would all choose Schumacher as our 2nd best he might win overall but not figure if we only had 1 vote each..


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:03 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm confused by the voting it's like some people have not picked a top 10 but instead have gone with the thread title which is contrary to the actual poll.


When I say 'best' I'm assuming we can reach a group consensus by adding all the votes. 10 votes each instead of 1 will I think give a fuller picture - eg. if we would all choose Schumacher as our 2nd best he might win overall but not figure if we only had 1 vote each..

I mean I think some have read the thread title "who is the best driver ever" and then only submitted one vote for who they think is the best.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:25 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
I think I saw the same topic on here in 2012. With the same votes from the same guys. So nothing has really changed. 😉

I doubt Vettel was on zero votes in 2012 and Hamilton on as many.

To be honest, I'm surprised he's on zero today - it shows what a fall from grace the last three seasons have been...


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:09 pm 
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To be honest Vettel can easily be on 0%, it’s clear his not the GOAT. 2012 you could argue he was in the discussion but 2014 onwards and the lose of smashing Webber every week has destroyed any argument. The same for half the list, Nico Rosberg etc etc.

My personal list is, Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton. Honourable mention to Alonso. But that is only from the mid eighties onwards. I rate him highly, but most over rated for me is Prost (who I still rate on the top 10 of all time) who had a built in advantage by being so light that people are happy to ignore/forget.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 3:18 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
To be honest Vettel can easily be on 0%, it’s clear his not the GOAT. 2012 you could argue he was in the discussion but 2014 onwards and the lose of smashing Webber every week has destroyed any argument. The same for half the list, Nico Rosberg etc etc.

My personal list is, Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton. Honourable mention to Alonso. But that is only from the mid eighties onwards. I rate him highly, but most over rated for me is Prost (who I still rate on the top 10 of all time) who had a built in advantage by being so light that people are happy to ignore/forget.


Hmmm I don't think people ignore it so much as those kind of physical advantages are all factored in as part of the package. This is done across all sports. Part of what may have made Prost so good was his light weight. The same as part of what makes Messi or Ronaldo so good is their pace.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:38 pm 
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Very surprised with the ranking up to now, but pleasantly so, to see Clark leading.

My votes went to Clark, Senna, Hamilton, Fangio, Schumacher, Stewart, Prost, Lauda, Ascari and Piquet. In my opinion, Prost hasn't been replaced as best driver yet.

Why wasn't Keke in the list?

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 8:55 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

Hmmm I don't think people ignore it so much as those kind of physical advantages are all factored in as part of the package. This is done across all sports. Part of what may have made Prost so good was his light weight. The same as part of what makes Messi or Ronaldo so good is their pace.


Interesting thought. But if being light was such an advantage I'd expect many more of the top drivers to be light too - like horse-racing jockeys. The fact that they aren't surely makes it unlikely weight is a major factor.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:03 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Hmmm I don't think people ignore it so much as those kind of physical advantages are all factored in as part of the package. This is done across all sports. Part of what may have made Prost so good was his light weight. The same as part of what makes Messi or Ronaldo so good is their pace.


Interesting thought. But if being light was such an advantage I'd expect many more of the top drivers to be light too - like horse-racing jockeys. The fact that they aren't surely makes it unlikely weight is a major factor.


Well Prost's time was when it would have been most of an advantage however the 80s and early 90s cars did also require a lot of strength to drive so there is a trade off that there wouldn't be today without weight restrictions.


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 9:30 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Hmmm I don't think people ignore it so much as those kind of physical advantages are all factored in as part of the package. This is done across all sports. Part of what may have made Prost so good was his light weight. The same as part of what makes Messi or Ronaldo so good is their pace.


Interesting thought. But if being light was such an advantage I'd expect many more of the top drivers to be light too - like horse-racing jockeys. The fact that they aren't surely makes it unlikely weight is a major factor.


Well Prost's time was when it would have been most of an advantage however the 80s and early 90s cars did also require a lot of strength to drive so there is a trade off that there wouldn't be today without weight restrictions.

Yeah I remember a story were Mansell was quicker than Piquet through a particular chicane, Piquet asked him how he could be so quick, Mansell replied that he just gripped the steering wheel tighter, he was a strong as an ox.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 10:00 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Hmmm I don't think people ignore it so much as those kind of physical advantages are all factored in as part of the package. This is done across all sports. Part of what may have made Prost so good was his light weight. The same as part of what makes Messi or Ronaldo so good is their pace.


Interesting thought. But if being light was such an advantage I'd expect many more of the top drivers to be light too - like horse-racing jockeys. The fact that they aren't surely makes it unlikely weight is a major factor.


Well Prost's time was when it would have been most of an advantage however the 80s and early 90s cars did also require a lot of strength to drive so there is a trade off that there wouldn't be today without weight restrictions.

Yeah I remember a story were Mansell was quicker than Piquet through a particular chicane, Piquet asked him how he could be so quick, Mansell replied that he just gripped the steering wheel tighter, he was a strong as an ox.


I think it was Patrese in 92. Part of the reason Mansell could get so much more out of the active suspension that Patrese was his ability to through it into a corner more aggressively.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:16 am 
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Johnson wrote:
To be honest Vettel can easily be on 0%, it’s clear his not the GOAT. 2012 you could argue he was in the discussion but 2014 onwards and the lose of smashing Webber every week has destroyed any argument. The same for half the list, Nico Rosberg etc etc.

My personal list is, Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton. Honourable mention to Alonso. But that is only from the mid eighties onwards. I rate him highly, but most over rated for me is Prost (who I still rate on the top 10 of all time) who had a built in advantage by being so light that people are happy to ignore/forget.

It's not about the greatest ever, it's about the ten greatest ever. And a driver who won 4 titles hasn't managed to make any top tens. He didn't make mine - but given how vociferous his fans used to be, I would say it's a surprise he's not featuring in any top ten list.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:42 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Hmmm I don't think people ignore it so much as those kind of physical advantages are all factored in as part of the package. This is done across all sports. Part of what may have made Prost so good was his light weight. The same as part of what makes Messi or Ronaldo so good is their pace.


Interesting thought. But if being light was such an advantage I'd expect many more of the top drivers to be light too - like horse-racing jockeys. The fact that they aren't surely makes it unlikely weight is a major factor.


Well Prost's time was when it would have been most of an advantage however the 80s and early 90s cars did also require a lot of strength to drive so there is a trade off that there wouldn't be today without weight restrictions.

Yeah I remember a story were Mansell was quicker than Piquet through a particular chicane, Piquet asked him how he could be so quick, Mansell replied that he just gripped the steering wheel tighter, he was a strong as an ox.


I think it was Patrese in 92. Part of the reason Mansell could get so much more out of the active suspension that Patrese was his ability to through it into a corner more aggressively.

With Patrese it was most corners, this relates to just one corner and I'm sure it was Piquet.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:06 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it was Patrese in 92. Part of the reason Mansell could get so much more out of the active suspension that Patrese was his ability to through it into a corner more aggressively.

With Patrese it was most corners, this relates to just one corner and I'm sure it was Piquet.

It was Piquet. Seb told that story on Top Gear, making it third hand from Newey (or at least that's where I heard it).

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:01 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it was Patrese in 92. Part of the reason Mansell could get so much more out of the active suspension that Patrese was his ability to through it into a corner more aggressively.

With Patrese it was most corners, this relates to just one corner and I'm sure it was Piquet.

It was Piquet. Seb told that story on Top Gear, making it third hand from Newey (or at least that's where I heard it).

Cheers, I guess Piquet just didn't have the same level of physical strength to control the car as it bounced over the chicane kerbs?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 7:11 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it was Patrese in 92. Part of the reason Mansell could get so much more out of the active suspension that Patrese was his ability to through it into a corner more aggressively.

With Patrese it was most corners, this relates to just one corner and I'm sure it was Piquet.

It was Piquet. Seb told that story on Top Gear, making it third hand from Newey (or at least that's where I heard it).


Ah OK.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:24 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Very surprised with the ranking up to now, but pleasantly so, to see Clark leading.

My votes went to Clark, Senna, Hamilton, Fangio, Schumacher, Stewart, Prost, Lauda, Ascari and Piquet. In my opinion, Prost hasn't been replaced as best driver yet.

Why wasn't Keke in the list?


I was thinking why is Nico included?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:43 am 
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Vettel not a single vote placing him in the top 10...wasn't expecting that. 4 x WDC's , 3rd on the all time win list and yet still placed below Moss!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 10:48 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Vettel not a single vote placing him in the top 10...wasn't expecting that. 4 x WDC's , 3rd on the all time win list and yet still placed below Moss!


I think if we were being asked for "greatest" he would be in with a shout. Success is less relevant for "best".


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:19 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Johnson wrote:
To be honest Vettel can easily be on 0%, it’s clear his not the GOAT. 2012 you could argue he was in the discussion but 2014 onwards and the lose of smashing Webber every week has destroyed any argument. The same for half the list, Nico Rosberg etc etc.

My personal list is, Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton. Honourable mention to Alonso. But that is only from the mid eighties onwards. I rate him highly, but most over rated for me is Prost (who I still rate on the top 10 of all time) who had a built in advantage by being so light that people are happy to ignore/forget.

It's not about the greatest ever, it's about the ten greatest ever. And a driver who won 4 titles hasn't managed to make any top tens. He didn't make mine - but given how vociferous his fans used to be, I would say it's a surprise he's not featuring in any top ten list.


I see, my mistake, how many options do you get to select in the poll? 10?

To be honest with Vettel, it was always let’s see how he does against someone other than Webber and since then he has shown to be not top 10. Top 10 is so hard to break into now - Senna, Schumacher, Fangio, Clark make top 5 near impossible.


Last edited by Johnson on Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:23 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Hmmm I don't think people ignore it so much as those kind of physical advantages are all factored in as part of the package. This is done across all sports. Part of what may have made Prost so good was his light weight. The same as part of what makes Messi or Ronaldo so good is their pace.


Interesting thought. But if being light was such an advantage I'd expect many more of the top drivers to be light too - like horse-racing jockeys. The fact that they aren't surely makes it unlikely weight is a major factor.


Well Prost's time was when it would have been most of an advantage however the 80s and early 90s cars did also require a lot of strength to drive so there is a trade off that there wouldn't be today without weight restrictions.


It was a trade off but 80% advantage to be light 20% to be strong. Especially 89 onwards when Turbos went.

Felipe Massa had the same advantage as Prost, my calculations are that if just car weight was being used in Massa era he would have won at least 2 WDCs and been Alonso’s match at Ferrari. He would be on this list.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 11:55 am 
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Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Hmmm I don't think people ignore it so much as those kind of physical advantages are all factored in as part of the package. This is done across all sports. Part of what may have made Prost so good was his light weight. The same as part of what makes Messi or Ronaldo so good is their pace.


Interesting thought. But if being light was such an advantage I'd expect many more of the top drivers to be light too - like horse-racing jockeys. The fact that they aren't surely makes it unlikely weight is a major factor.


Well Prost's time was when it would have been most of an advantage however the 80s and early 90s cars did also require a lot of strength to drive so there is a trade off that there wouldn't be today without weight restrictions.


It was a trade off but 80% advantage to be light 20% to be strong. Especially 89 onwards when Turbos went.

Felipe Massa had the same advantage as Prost, my calculations are that if just car weight was being used in Massa era he would have won at least 2 WDCs and been Alonso’s match at Ferrari. He would be on this list.


Why are you not viewing a drivers physicality as part of the package? There is never any attempts to do this in other sports.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:17 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Hmmm I don't think people ignore it so much as those kind of physical advantages are all factored in as part of the package. This is done across all sports. Part of what may have made Prost so good was his light weight. The same as part of what makes Messi or Ronaldo so good is their pace.


Interesting thought. But if being light was such an advantage I'd expect many more of the top drivers to be light too - like horse-racing jockeys. The fact that they aren't surely makes it unlikely weight is a major factor.


Well Prost's time was when it would have been most of an advantage however the 80s and early 90s cars did also require a lot of strength to drive so there is a trade off that there wouldn't be today without weight restrictions.


It was a trade off but 80% advantage to be light 20% to be strong. Especially 89 onwards when Turbos went.

Felipe Massa had the same advantage as Prost, my calculations are that if just car weight was being used in Massa era he would have won at least 2 WDCs and been Alonso’s match at Ferrari. He would be on this list.


Why are you not viewing a drivers physicality as part of the package? There is never any attempts to do this in other sports.

For Massa specifically it wouldn't be his size; it would be his skills, nowhere near the other drivers in this list, I do not think he would ever be mentioned in a top 10 list no matter what. He was fast, but like Rubens and Webber, never consistent enough. His wet driving also lacked at times.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:27 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Hmmm I don't think people ignore it so much as those kind of physical advantages are all factored in as part of the package. This is done across all sports. Part of what may have made Prost so good was his light weight. The same as part of what makes Messi or Ronaldo so good is their pace.


Interesting thought. But if being light was such an advantage I'd expect many more of the top drivers to be light too - like horse-racing jockeys. The fact that they aren't surely makes it unlikely weight is a major factor.


Well Prost's time was when it would have been most of an advantage however the 80s and early 90s cars did also require a lot of strength to drive so there is a trade off that there wouldn't be today without weight restrictions.


It was a trade off but 80% advantage to be light 20% to be strong. Especially 89 onwards when Turbos went.

Felipe Massa had the same advantage as Prost, my calculations are that if just car weight was being used in Massa era he would have won at least 2 WDCs and been Alonso’s match at Ferrari. He would be on this list.

When did it change from just car weight to car weight and driver?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:56 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Top 10 is so hard to break into now - Senna, Schumacher, Fangio, Clark make top 5 near impossible.


Well Hamilton as managed it as far as this forum has voted!

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:57 pm 
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Clark 13% 13% [ 20 ] x
Hamilton 12% 12% [ 19 ] x
Schumacher 11% 11% [ 18 ] x
Senna 11% 11% [ 17 ] x
Fangio 9% 9% [ 15 ] x
Prost 8% 8% [ 13 ] x
Stewart 8% 8% [ 12 ] x
Alonso 7% 7% [ 11 ] x
Lauda 6% 6% [ 10 ] x
Moss 5% 5% [ 8 ] x
Ascari 5% 5% [ 8 ]
Piquet 2% 2% [ 3 ]
Mansell 1% 1% [ 1 ]
Hill, G 1% 1% [ 1 ]
Fittipaldi 1% 1% [ 1 ]
Brabham, J 1% 1% [ 1 ]
Vettel 0% 0% [ 0 ]
Rosberg, N 0% 0% [ 0 ]
Hill, D 0% 0% [ 0 ]
Hakkinen 0% 0% [ 0 ]
Total votes : 158

Does anyone know how the figures are calculated? I assume the % is the % of the total votes each driver has received; but what does the 158 total mean? Is it the total number of people who've voted, or the total votes cast - theoretically at 10 per voter. If so, does Clark's 20 mean 20 voters have included him?
That way it looks to me like 20-odd people have voted, averaging about 8 votes each, and almost all have included Clark..


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:02 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:

Why wasn't Keke in the list?


I was thinking why is Nico included?


Purely on stats: Nico has 1 championship + 2 runner-ups. Keke just the one champs. Nico's win per race ratio at 11% is far higher than Keke's at 4%.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Johnson wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
tim3003 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Hmmm I don't think people ignore it so much as those kind of physical advantages are all factored in as part of the package. This is done across all sports. Part of what may have made Prost so good was his light weight. The same as part of what makes Messi or Ronaldo so good is their pace.


Interesting thought. But if being light was such an advantage I'd expect many more of the top drivers to be light too - like horse-racing jockeys. The fact that they aren't surely makes it unlikely weight is a major factor.


Well Prost's time was when it would have been most of an advantage however the 80s and early 90s cars did also require a lot of strength to drive so there is a trade off that there wouldn't be today without weight restrictions.


It was a trade off but 80% advantage to be light 20% to be strong. Especially 89 onwards when Turbos went.

Felipe Massa had the same advantage as Prost, my calculations are that if just car weight was being used in Massa era he would have won at least 2 WDCs and been Alonso’s match at Ferrari. He would be on this list.

When did it change from just car weight to car weight and driver?


I think 94 but I might be wrong.


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