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Which driver won each intra-team battle in Brazil?
Poll ended at Wed Nov 27, 2019 10:14 pm
Hamilton 9%  9%  [ 26 ]
Bottas 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
Vettel 3%  3%  [ 9 ]
Leclerc 7%  7%  [ 19 ]
Verstappen 10%  10%  [ 28 ]
Albon 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
Ricciardo 8%  8%  [ 23 ]
Hulkenberg 2%  2%  [ 5 ]
Magnussen 3%  3%  [ 9 ]
Grosjean 6%  6%  [ 16 ]
Sainz 10%  10%  [ 27 ]
Norris 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Perez 9%  9%  [ 24 ]
Stroll 1%  1%  [ 4 ]
Raikkonen 10%  10%  [ 29 ]
Giovinazzi 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Gasly 11%  11%  [ 30 ]
Kvyat 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Russell 9%  9%  [ 24 ]
Kubica 1%  1%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 281
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:14 pm 
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As always, let's start with the result of the previous TMW vote:

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Mercedes
TMW race winner: Bottas (94%)
Hamilton 14 - 5 Bottas
Hamilton 71% - 29% Bottas

The end of 2018 was where Lewis Hamilton really stretched out his advantage over Valtteri Bottas, winning the last five TMW votes and limiting Bottas to a single vote over that period. It meant that 12-4 became 17-4 and the percentage of the vote really grew in Lewis' favour, ending up 71-29. 2019 is already looking like a different story in that respect as the Finn claims his second TMW victory in the last three races. Granted, he was further behind with five races to go, but a strong finish to the year could be carried over into 2020. (Spoiler alert: it will not be carried over to the start of 2020).

Ferrari
TMW race winner: Leclerc (77%)
Vettel 11 - 8 Leclerc
Vettel 48% - 52% Leclerc

Fresh from seeing his teammate secure the TMW win at Ferrari for 2019 (Charles definitely reads these posts), the Monegasque driver responded by securing his first TMW victory in three races. With two races to go it looks increasingly like Leclerc will secure a larger percentage of the votes across the year despite Seb winning more TMW votes.

Red Bull
TMW race winner: Verstappen (75%)
Verstappen 3 - 4 Albon
Verstappen 40% - 60% Albon

The first of three 'must win' TMW votes for Max Verstappen, and the first of potentially three TMW wins. He still has a hefty deficit to overcome in percentage terms, and one bad race from the last two could open the door for the consistent Albon to take a surprise TMW victory. But it is still all to play for in this second Red Bull TMW battle of 2019.

Renault
TMW race winner: Ricciardo (94%)
Ricciardo 15 - 4 Hulkenberg
Ricciardo 62% - 38% Hulkenberg

...unlike at Renault where it isn't all to play for. It's now seven TMW wins in a row for Daniel Ricciardo, who is the only driver on the grid to have strung together two separate such runs across the year (Kimi is the next closest with two runs of six TMW wins in a row).

Haas
TMW race winner: Magnussen (93%)
Magnussen 14 - 4 Grosjean
Magnussen 65% - 35% Grosjean

It is now nine races since Romain Grosjean's last TMW win, all the way back in Germany. KMag has won seven of the votes since, with the tie in Japan being Grosjean's only vaguely positive TMW result since.

McLaren
TMW race winner: Norris (88%)
Sainz 12 - 7 Norris
Sainz 53% - 47% Norris

With the TMW vote settled for the season, Lando Norris is reduced to racing for pride. He did a good job of that in America as he claimed his first TMW win since Singapore, retaining a slim hope of overhauling the smooth Sainz on the percentage side of things before the end of the year.

Racing Point
TMW race winner: Perez (88%)
Perez 16 - 3 Stroll
Perez 69% - 31% Stroll

It's getting a bit embarrassing at Racing Point where it is now 16-3 to Sergio Perez, who extends his run of consecutive TMW victories to eight.

Alfa Romeo
TMW race winner: Raikkonen (93%)
Raikkonen 16 - 3 Giovinazzi
Raikkonen 83% - 17% Giovinazzi

Also taking a right whooping is Antonio Giovinazzi, who is in an even worse position than Lance Stroll is. After the Italian won back-to-back TMW votes in Italy and Singapore, normal service has been resumed and Kimi has now secured four TMW wins in a row.

Toro Rosso
TMW race winner: Gasly (93%)
Gasly 4 - 3 Kvyat
Gasly 50% - 50% Kvyat

Has the tide turned at Toro Rosso? It's now three TMW wins in a row for Pierre Gasly who, for the first time in 2019, leads a teammate for the season. As for the 50/50 split of the vote, that is an exact split, not just a rounded up/down one. Both have received 67 votes so truly are neck-and-neck on that side of things.

Williams
TMW race winner: Russell (94%)
Russell 17 - 2 Kubica
Russell 85% - 15% Kubica

It's also neck-and-neck at Willi... :lol: no, it really is not. 17-2 to George Russell, and should he win either of the two remaining TMW votes, he'll ensure that he has the most TMW vote wins for 2019.

TMW winners so far:

Max Verstappen over Pierre Gasly (12-0, 97%)
Daniil Kvyat over Alex Albon (6-6, 57%)
Kimi Raikkonen over Antonio Giovinazzi
George Russell over Robert Kubica
Lewis Hamilton over Valtteri Bottas
Sergio Perez over Lance Stroll
Daniel Ricciardo over Nico Hulkenberg
Kevin Magnussen over Romain Grosjean
Carlos Sainz over Lando Norris
Sebastian Vettel over Charles Leclerc

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:50 pm 
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Pretty easy this time, depending on how you view a few incidents:

Hamilton over Bottas -- I don't feel like this was Lewis' strongest outing somehow, compounded by his late lunge on Albon. But he was the better Merc driver.
Leclerc over Vettel -- He didn't steer into his teammate on a straight.
Verstappen over Albon -- Drive of the season, to be honest. His moves on Hamilton were incredible, and I think he rattled the 6-time champ quite badly by the end.
Sainz over Norris -- Guys, do you know what that was? That was a smooooooooth operator!
Ricciardo over Magnussen -- Crucially, I don't blame Ricciardo for the incident with Magnussen, considering it a 50/50.
Gasly over Kvyat -- Smashed him, really. Totally in a different league this weekend.
Stroll over Perez -- Probably my least confident pick, but I felt Stroll was having a really strong race until his suspension failure.
Raikkonen over Giovinazzi -- A really good showing from Joe, but I'm taking Kimi on this one.
Grosjean over Magnussen -- Quicker in qualifying, and with the two being pretty equal the 50/50 incident with Danny Ric counts against KMag.
Russel over Kubica -- Credit to Robert for putting up a fight. Not so much for almost hitting Max in the pits.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 10:57 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Pretty easy this time, depending on how you view a few incidents:

Hamilton over Bottas -- I don't feel like this was Lewis' strongest outing somehow, compounded by his late lunge on Albon. But he was the better Merc driver.
Leclerc over Vettel -- He didn't steer into his teammate on a straight.
Verstappen over Albon -- Drive of the season, to be honest. His moves on Hamilton were incredible, and I think he rattled the 6-time champ quite badly by the end.
Sainz over Norris -- Guys, do you know what that was? That was a smooooooooth operator!
Ricciardo over Magnussen -- Crucially, I don't blame Ricciardo for the incident with Magnussen, considering it a 50/50.
Gasly over Kvyat -- Smashed him, really. Totally in a different league this weekend.
Stroll over Perez -- Probably my least confident pick, but I felt Stroll was having a really strong race until his suspension failure.
Raikkonen over Giovinazzi -- A really good showing from Joe, but I'm taking Kimi on this one.
Grosjean over Magnussen -- Quicker in qualifying, and with the two being pretty equal the 50/50 incident with Danny Ric counts against KMag.
Russel over Kubica -- Credit to Robert for putting up a fight. Not so much for almost hitting Max in the pits.

Agree with all of your picks but not your commentary. If you think Hamilton was "rattled" by losing in a race where it really wasn't a Merc day and where the championship is already over with, I think you're imagination is getting away with you.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:08 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Pretty easy this time, depending on how you view a few incidents:

Hamilton over Bottas -- I don't feel like this was Lewis' strongest outing somehow, compounded by his late lunge on Albon. But he was the better Merc driver.
Leclerc over Vettel -- He didn't steer into his teammate on a straight.
Verstappen over Albon -- Drive of the season, to be honest. His moves on Hamilton were incredible, and I think he rattled the 6-time champ quite badly by the end.
Sainz over Norris -- Guys, do you know what that was? That was a smooooooooth operator!
Ricciardo over Magnussen -- Crucially, I don't blame Ricciardo for the incident with Magnussen, considering it a 50/50.
Gasly over Kvyat -- Smashed him, really. Totally in a different league this weekend.
Stroll over Perez -- Probably my least confident pick, but I felt Stroll was having a really strong race until his suspension failure.
Raikkonen over Giovinazzi -- A really good showing from Joe, but I'm taking Kimi on this one.
Grosjean over Magnussen -- Quicker in qualifying, and with the two being pretty equal the 50/50 incident with Danny Ric counts against KMag.
Russel over Kubica -- Credit to Robert for putting up a fight. Not so much for almost hitting Max in the pits.

Agree with all of your picks but not your commentary. If you think Hamilton was "rattled" by losing in a race where it really wasn't a Merc day and where the championship is already over with, I think you're imagination is getting away with you.

I felt like he was happy and comfortable after the race, but immediately after he got passed by Max and the Red Bull was pulling away yes, I thought Hamilton was a little rattled. I'm not trying to make anything more out of it, but I think Hamilton isn't used to people passing him easily for the lead of the race, and it showed. If you think differently, fair enough.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 17, 2019 11:22 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Pretty easy this time, depending on how you view a few incidents:

Hamilton over Bottas -- I don't feel like this was Lewis' strongest outing somehow, compounded by his late lunge on Albon. But he was the better Merc driver.
Leclerc over Vettel -- He didn't steer into his teammate on a straight.
Verstappen over Albon -- Drive of the season, to be honest. His moves on Hamilton were incredible, and I think he rattled the 6-time champ quite badly by the end.
Sainz over Norris -- Guys, do you know what that was? That was a smooooooooth operator!
Ricciardo over Magnussen -- Crucially, I don't blame Ricciardo for the incident with Magnussen, considering it a 50/50.
Gasly over Kvyat -- Smashed him, really. Totally in a different league this weekend.
Stroll over Perez -- Probably my least confident pick, but I felt Stroll was having a really strong race until his suspension failure.
Raikkonen over Giovinazzi -- A really good showing from Joe, but I'm taking Kimi on this one.
Grosjean over Magnussen -- Quicker in qualifying, and with the two being pretty equal the 50/50 incident with Danny Ric counts against KMag.
Russel over Kubica -- Credit to Robert for putting up a fight. Not so much for almost hitting Max in the pits.

Agree with all of your picks but not your commentary. If you think Hamilton was "rattled" by losing in a race where it really wasn't a Merc day and where the championship is already over with, I think you're imagination is getting away with you.

I felt like he was happy and comfortable after the race, but immediately after he got passed by Max and the Red Bull was pulling away yes, I thought Hamilton was a little rattled. I'm not trying to make anything more out of it, but I think Hamilton isn't used to people passing him easily for the lead of the race, and it showed. If you think differently, fair enough.

There's a difference between being upset and being rattled but no need to argue semantics.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:26 am 
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Hamilton
Leclerc
Verstappen
Sainz
Ricciardo
Gasly
Perez
Raikkonen
Russel

I refuse to vote for either of the Haas twerps. They qualified in the top ten and advanced madly backward during the race. FAIL!!!!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:13 am 
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I think Vettel was again faster than Charles all weekend. SC gave Charles free pitstop with fresh tyres.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:53 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I think Vettel was again faster than Charles all weekend. SC gave Charles free pitstop with fresh tyres.

I think he may have been. As I noted, I voted against him for the incident, not for any lack of pace. I expect others feel the same.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:03 am 
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Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I think Vettel was again faster than Charles all weekend. SC gave Charles free pitstop with fresh tyres.

grosjean was running 7th ad had a very good early stage of the race compred to magnussen even before Mgnussen got hit. magnussen lost several more positions early on. But Grosjean was left at the safety car and didn't benifit in the same way many did. He was on old tyres compared to many when others pitted plus he had a problem with his car. Hence the reason why he fel 9 places in next to no time at all. Magnussen was not at fault for the incident, but was not as quick as grosjeanin was in qualifying or the first stage of the race. Neither did badly IMO this weekend though, but i think it is pretty easy to vote Grosjean ovr magnussen this time. Hass have been nowhere most wekends recently, but don't think the car or drivers was at fault this time.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:19 am 
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How can Bottas have a vote? Lewis was faster the whole weekend if I'm not mistaken, plus Bottas didn't even finish the race (though he was some half a minute behind Lewis when his engine gave way). In what world would he get a vote above Hamilton?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:25 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
How can Bottas have a vote? Lewis was faster the whole weekend if I'm not mistaken, plus Bottas didn't even finish the race (though he was some half a minute behind Lewis when his engine gave way). In what world would he get a vote above Hamilton?


I'm wondering if someone has voted for him because they viewed Hamilton at fault for the Albon collision?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:12 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
How can Bottas have a vote? Lewis was faster the whole weekend if I'm not mistaken, plus Bottas didn't even finish the race (though he was some half a minute behind Lewis when his engine gave way). In what world would he get a vote above Hamilton?


I'm wondering if someone has voted for him because they viewed Hamilton at fault for the Albon collision?


Yeah, that's what I thought as well, but this should not relate to their intra-team battle. Bottas was beaten fair and square the whole weekend in relation to his team mate, Hamilton making a mistake late in the race when Bottas wasn't even running should have very little relevance in my mind.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:20 am 
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JN23 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
How can Bottas have a vote? Lewis was faster the whole weekend if I'm not mistaken, plus Bottas didn't even finish the race (though he was some half a minute behind Lewis when his engine gave way). In what world would he get a vote above Hamilton?


I'm wondering if someone has voted for him because they viewed Hamilton at fault for the Albon collision?

It may be a similar reason for kubica getting voted over russel in germany. russel was far better all weekend. until the safety car brought them together and then he made a mistake. If Bottas didn't retire, due to hamilton's mistake and penalty, bottas will have beaten him. But that isn't enough for me to vote bottas.

althugh half minute isn't that realistic of a gap between them really. Bottas was clearly slower, but his strategy was really strange. Pitting after 11 laps on a tyre that he could have gone to the end on. if he didn't ddo this other stop, he will have been around where Hamilton was on track when he retired, thugh hamilton will have pulled away.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:32 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
How can Bottas have a vote? Lewis was faster the whole weekend if I'm not mistaken, plus Bottas didn't even finish the race (though he was some half a minute behind Lewis when his engine gave way). In what world would he get a vote above Hamilton?

well this often happens. the driver that clearly has been beaten often gets a vote or two. hamilton got a vote last weekend. If you think about it though, hamilton was at fault for the incident and with albon and with the penalty given, bottas would have finished ahead. so due to a mistake by hamilton, bottas would have beaten him if not for the retirement, so i don't see a vote being that crazy. But i will be voting for hamilton.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 10:53 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
How can Bottas have a vote? Lewis was faster the whole weekend if I'm not mistaken, plus Bottas didn't even finish the race (though he was some half a minute behind Lewis when his engine gave way). In what world would he get a vote above Hamilton?

well this often happens. the driver that clearly has been beaten often gets a vote or two. hamilton got a vote last weekend. If you think about it though, hamilton was at fault for the incident and with albon and with the penalty given, bottas would have finished ahead. so due to a mistake by hamilton, bottas would have beaten him if not for the retirement, so i don't see a vote being that crazy. But i will be voting for hamilton.

I know this happens, but the woulda-coulda-shoulda does not change the fact that only one driver finished (which should really have been the biggest factor here), and it was the one that had been faster the whole weekend. He would have possibly finished behind Bottas only due to a SC, otherwise he was half a minute ahead of his team mate at the time when the engine failure happened. Bottas would have no right to claim the team mate war under normal circumstances.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:26 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I think Vettel was again faster than Charles all weekend. SC gave Charles free pitstop with fresh tyres.

I think he may have been. As I noted, I voted against him for the incident, not for any lack of pace. I expect others feel the same.


But you voted for Hamilton the double standards never ceases to amaze.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:55 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Pretty easy this time, depending on how you view a few incidents:

Hamilton over Bottas -- I don't feel like this was Lewis' strongest outing somehow, compounded by his late lunge on Albon. But he was the better Merc driver.
Leclerc over Vettel -- He didn't steer into his teammate on a straight.
Verstappen over Albon -- Drive of the season, to be honest. His moves on Hamilton were incredible, and I think he rattled the 6-time champ quite badly by the end.
Sainz over Norris -- Guys, do you know what that was? That was a smooooooooth operator!
Ricciardo over Magnussen -- Crucially, I don't blame Ricciardo for the incident with Magnussen, considering it a 50/50.
Gasly over Kvyat -- Smashed him, really. Totally in a different league this weekend.
Stroll over Perez -- Probably my least confident pick, but I felt Stroll was having a really strong race until his suspension failure.
Raikkonen over Giovinazzi -- A really good showing from Joe, but I'm taking Kimi on this one.
Grosjean over Magnussen -- Quicker in qualifying, and with the two being pretty equal the 50/50 incident with Danny Ric counts against KMag.
Russel over Kubica -- Credit to Robert for putting up a fight. Not so much for almost hitting Max in the pits.

Agree with all of your picks but not your commentary. If you think Hamilton was "rattled" by losing in a race where it really wasn't a Merc day and where the championship is already over with, I think you're imagination is getting away with you.

I felt like he was happy and comfortable after the race, but immediately after he got passed by Max and the Red Bull was pulling away yes, I thought Hamilton was a little rattled. I'm not trying to make anything more out of it, but I think Hamilton isn't used to people passing him easily for the lead of the race, and it showed. If you think differently, fair enough.

This being when Hamilton was on old tyres and Verstappen on new tyres?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:08 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Pretty easy this time, depending on how you view a few incidents:

Hamilton over Bottas -- I don't feel like this was Lewis' strongest outing somehow, compounded by his late lunge on Albon. But he was the better Merc driver.
Leclerc over Vettel -- He didn't steer into his teammate on a straight.
Verstappen over Albon -- Drive of the season, to be honest. His moves on Hamilton were incredible, and I think he rattled the 6-time champ quite badly by the end.
Sainz over Norris -- Guys, do you know what that was? That was a smooooooooth operator!
Ricciardo over Magnussen -- Crucially, I don't blame Ricciardo for the incident with Magnussen, considering it a 50/50.
Gasly over Kvyat -- Smashed him, really. Totally in a different league this weekend.
Stroll over Perez -- Probably my least confident pick, but I felt Stroll was having a really strong race until his suspension failure.
Raikkonen over Giovinazzi -- A really good showing from Joe, but I'm taking Kimi on this one.
Grosjean over Magnussen -- Quicker in qualifying, and with the two being pretty equal the 50/50 incident with Danny Ric counts against KMag.
Russel over Kubica -- Credit to Robert for putting up a fight. Not so much for almost hitting Max in the pits.

I'd argue that Kubica was not to blame if his team released him unsafely. He does not control that


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:19 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I think Vettel was again faster than Charles all weekend. SC gave Charles free pitstop with fresh tyres.

I think he may have been. As I noted, I voted against him for the incident, not for any lack of pace. I expect others feel the same.


But you voted for Hamilton the double standards never ceases to amaze.

I think i can see your point. Over the weekend, hamilton and Vettel overall outperformed their team mates quite clearly. But Vettel made a mistake at the end and interestingly was not punished. If people vote for leclerc only because of this incident, then the same maybe should apply for bottas over hamilton. if bottas was still running, he will have either passed hamilton when he slowed down after hitting albon, or got a better result due to hamilton's penalty. So as hamilton was held responsible for this clash, i can see why some may vote for bottas if many have gone for leclerc.

I will certainly be going for hamilton, but i think i may not vote for either of the ferraris. vettel was clearly better all weekend and he didn't actually get a penalty for the incident. but i do see it as his fault, but in no way did leclerc outperform him. so i disagre with the votes here.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 2:26 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I think Vettel was again faster than Charles all weekend. SC gave Charles free pitstop with fresh tyres.

I think he may have been. As I noted, I voted against him for the incident, not for any lack of pace. I expect others feel the same.


But you voted for Hamilton the double standards never ceases to amaze.

I think i can see your point. Over the weekend, hamilton and Vettel overall outperformed their team mates quite clearly. But Vettel made a mistake at the end and interestingly was not punished. If people vote for leclerc only because of this incident, then the same maybe should apply for bottas over hamilton. if bottas was still running, he will have either passed hamilton when he slowed down after hitting albon, or got a better result due to hamilton's penalty. So as hamilton was held responsible for this clash, i can see why some may vote for bottas if many have gone for leclerc.

I will certainly be going for hamilton, but i think i may not vote for either of the ferraris. vettel was clearly better all weekend and he didn't actually get a penalty for the incident. but i do see it as his fault, but in no way did leclerc outperform him. so i disagre with the votes here.


If you crash both your teams cars out of the race you've performed very badly regardless of how fast you are.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I think Vettel was again faster than Charles all weekend. SC gave Charles free pitstop with fresh tyres.

I think he may have been. As I noted, I voted against him for the incident, not for any lack of pace. I expect others feel the same.


But you voted for Hamilton the double standards never ceases to amaze.

I think i can see your point. Over the weekend, hamilton and Vettel overall outperformed their team mates quite clearly. But Vettel made a mistake at the end and interestingly was not punished. If people vote for leclerc only because of this incident, then the same maybe should apply for bottas over hamilton. if bottas was still running, he will have either passed hamilton when he slowed down after hitting albon, or got a better result due to hamilton's penalty. So as hamilton was held responsible for this clash, i can see why some may vote for bottas if many have gone for leclerc.

I will certainly be going for hamilton, but i think i may not vote for either of the ferraris. vettel was clearly better all weekend and he didn't actually get a penalty for the incident. but i do see it as his fault, but in no way did leclerc outperform him. so i disagre with the votes here.


If you crash both your teams cars out of the race you've performed very badly regardless of how fast you are.


But depriving Albon of his first podium is not?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:41 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I think he may have been. As I noted, I voted against him for the incident, not for any lack of pace. I expect others feel the same.


But you voted for Hamilton the double standards never ceases to amaze.

I think i can see your point. Over the weekend, hamilton and Vettel overall outperformed their team mates quite clearly. But Vettel made a mistake at the end and interestingly was not punished. If people vote for leclerc only because of this incident, then the same maybe should apply for bottas over hamilton. if bottas was still running, he will have either passed hamilton when he slowed down after hitting albon, or got a better result due to hamilton's penalty. So as hamilton was held responsible for this clash, i can see why some may vote for bottas if many have gone for leclerc.

I will certainly be going for hamilton, but i think i may not vote for either of the ferraris. vettel was clearly better all weekend and he didn't actually get a penalty for the incident. but i do see it as his fault, but in no way did leclerc outperform him. so i disagre with the votes here.


If you crash both your teams cars out of the race you've performed very badly regardless of how fast you are.


But depriving Albon of his first podium is not?


I don't blame Hamilton for that incident so it's a moot point.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 3:54 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I think he may have been. As I noted, I voted against him for the incident, not for any lack of pace. I expect others feel the same.


But you voted for Hamilton the double standards never ceases to amaze.

I think i can see your point. Over the weekend, hamilton and Vettel overall outperformed their team mates quite clearly. But Vettel made a mistake at the end and interestingly was not punished. If people vote for leclerc only because of this incident, then the same maybe should apply for bottas over hamilton. if bottas was still running, he will have either passed hamilton when he slowed down after hitting albon, or got a better result due to hamilton's penalty. So as hamilton was held responsible for this clash, i can see why some may vote for bottas if many have gone for leclerc.

I will certainly be going for hamilton, but i think i may not vote for either of the ferraris. vettel was clearly better all weekend and he didn't actually get a penalty for the incident. but i do see it as his fault, but in no way did leclerc outperform him. so i disagre with the votes here.


If you crash both your teams cars out of the race you've performed very badly regardless of how fast you are.


But depriving Albon of his first podium is not?

Again, i think this is a good point. And we should also factor in the verdicts of the stewards. Which as strange as it seems, they did not punish vettel. But Hamilton was deemed responsible for crashing into albon, which did ruin his race totally. Hamilton was lucky to not get more damage than he did. With this factored in, i can still see why some may think what hamilton did was as bad. Although i am surprised vettel didn't get a penalty, there must be some hidden explanation as to why that is. So at the moment, i don't think i'm going to be as against vettel as ost are. But Hamilton did get a clear cut penalty.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:02 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:


Again, i think this is a good point. And we should also factor in the verdicts of the stewards. Which as strange as it seems, they did not punish vettel. But Hamilton was deemed responsible for crashing into albon, which did ruin his race totally. Hamilton was lucky to not get more damage than he did. With this factored in, i can still see why some may think what hamilton did was as bad. Although i am surprised vettel didn't get a penalty, there must be some hidden explanation as to why that is. So at the moment, i don't think i'm going to be as against vettel as ost are. But Hamilton did get a clear cut penalty.



Its the double standard Vettel does it, its a stick to beat him with, but if Hamilton does wrong it does not matter.

To put this in perspective Hamilton taking Albon out of a race got exactly the same punishment as Vettel in Canada where no contact was made.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:15 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Rockie wrote:

But you voted for Hamilton the double standards never ceases to amaze.

I think i can see your point. Over the weekend, hamilton and Vettel overall outperformed their team mates quite clearly. But Vettel made a mistake at the end and interestingly was not punished. If people vote for leclerc only because of this incident, then the same maybe should apply for bottas over hamilton. if bottas was still running, he will have either passed hamilton when he slowed down after hitting albon, or got a better result due to hamilton's penalty. So as hamilton was held responsible for this clash, i can see why some may vote for bottas if many have gone for leclerc.

I will certainly be going for hamilton, but i think i may not vote for either of the ferraris. vettel was clearly better all weekend and he didn't actually get a penalty for the incident. but i do see it as his fault, but in no way did leclerc outperform him. so i disagre with the votes here.


If you crash both your teams cars out of the race you've performed very badly regardless of how fast you are.


But depriving Albon of his first podium is not?

Again, i think this is a good point. And we should also factor in the verdicts of the stewards. Which as strange as it seems, they did not punish vettel. But Hamilton was deemed responsible for crashing into albon, which did ruin his race totally. Hamilton was lucky to not get more damage than he did. With this factored in, i can still see why some may think what hamilton did was as bad. Although i am surprised vettel didn't get a penalty, there must be some hidden explanation as to why that is. So at the moment, i don't think i'm going to be as against vettel as ost are. But Hamilton did get a clear cut penalty.


There two different incidents. They can't be compared. Even if Hamilton was to blame. Taking out your team mate is always worse. I'm sure if this was Verstappen taking out Albon you would be making that point. I think you are making a false equivalent.

And we can't factor in the verdicts of the stewards at this point. They simply aren't consistent enough.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 5:44 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:


Again, i think this is a good point. And we should also factor in the verdicts of the stewards. Which as strange as it seems, they did not punish vettel. But Hamilton was deemed responsible for crashing into albon, which did ruin his race totally. Hamilton was lucky to not get more damage than he did. With this factored in, i can still see why some may think what hamilton did was as bad. Although i am surprised vettel didn't get a penalty, there must be some hidden explanation as to why that is. So at the moment, i don't think i'm going to be as against vettel as ost are. But Hamilton did get a clear cut penalty.



Its the double standard Vettel does it, its a stick to beat him with, but if Hamilton does wrong it does not matter.

To put this in perspective Hamilton taking Albon out of a race got exactly the same punishment as Vettel in Canada where no contact was made.


... and Vettel got away frank free despite causing a crash that was worse and more dangerous than Hamilton-Albon. I would say Vettel got very, very lucky to escape further license points ...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:07 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:


Again, i think this is a good point. And we should also factor in the verdicts of the stewards. Which as strange as it seems, they did not punish vettel. But Hamilton was deemed responsible for crashing into albon, which did ruin his race totally. Hamilton was lucky to not get more damage than he did. With this factored in, i can still see why some may think what hamilton did was as bad. Although i am surprised vettel didn't get a penalty, there must be some hidden explanation as to why that is. So at the moment, i don't think i'm going to be as against vettel as ost are. But Hamilton did get a clear cut penalty.



Its the double standard Vettel does it, its a stick to beat him with, but if Hamilton does wrong it does not matter.

To put this in perspective Hamilton taking Albon out of a race got exactly the same punishment as Vettel in Canada where no contact was made.


... and Vettel got away frank free despite causing a crash that was worse and more dangerous than Hamilton-Albon. I would say Vettel got very, very lucky to escape further license points ...


If you can point me to a time team mates in an accident like that have been punished I'll take you serious.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:09 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:


Again, i think this is a good point. And we should also factor in the verdicts of the stewards. Which as strange as it seems, they did not punish vettel. But Hamilton was deemed responsible for crashing into albon, which did ruin his race totally. Hamilton was lucky to not get more damage than he did. With this factored in, i can still see why some may think what hamilton did was as bad. Although i am surprised vettel didn't get a penalty, there must be some hidden explanation as to why that is. So at the moment, i don't think i'm going to be as against vettel as ost are. But Hamilton did get a clear cut penalty.



Its the double standard Vettel does it, its a stick to beat him with, but if Hamilton does wrong it does not matter.

To put this in perspective Hamilton taking Albon out of a race got exactly the same punishment as Vettel in Canada where no contact was made.


... and Vettel got away frank free despite causing a crash that was worse and more dangerous than Hamilton-Albon. I would say Vettel got very, very lucky to escape further license points ...


If you can point me to a time team mates in an accident like that have been punished I'll take you serious.


The accidents no less dangerous because they're team mates.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 7:10 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I think Vettel was again faster than Charles all weekend. SC gave Charles free pitstop with fresh tyres.

I think he may have been. As I noted, I voted against him for the incident, not for any lack of pace. I expect others feel the same.

But you voted for Hamilton the double standards never ceases to amaze.

I don't see the two incidents as equivalent. Hamilton (and Ricciardo) made a sloppy racing move, but Vettel did something inexcusably stupid.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:10 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I think Vettel was again faster than Charles all weekend. SC gave Charles free pitstop with fresh tyres.

I think he may have been. As I noted, I voted against him for the incident, not for any lack of pace. I expect others feel the same.

But you voted for Hamilton the double standards never ceases to amaze.

I don't see the two incidents as equivalent. Hamilton (and Ricciardo) made a sloppy racing move, but Vettel did something inexcusably stupid.

I disagree, he was ahead and tried to squeeze Leclerc to the inside. We see that almost every race.

You could argue he did it too early or too aggressively but that would fall firmly into the category of sloppy racing move, since the driver further ahead while side by side dictating the line is something we see frequently.

It's not in any rulebook but it's standard driving practice and while Vettel instigated the contact and is therefore at fault I dont think Leclerc is totally innocent. I firmly believe for example if it were Verstappen doing that exact thing in that scenario there wouldn't have been a crash, Leclerc would have moved with the squeeze.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:21 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:


Again, i think this is a good point. And we should also factor in the verdicts of the stewards. Which as strange as it seems, they did not punish vettel. But Hamilton was deemed responsible for crashing into albon, which did ruin his race totally. Hamilton was lucky to not get more damage than he did. With this factored in, i can still see why some may think what hamilton did was as bad. Although i am surprised vettel didn't get a penalty, there must be some hidden explanation as to why that is. So at the moment, i don't think i'm going to be as against vettel as ost are. But Hamilton did get a clear cut penalty.



Its the double standard Vettel does it, its a stick to beat him with, but if Hamilton does wrong it does not matter.

To put this in perspective Hamilton taking Albon out of a race got exactly the same punishment as Vettel in Canada where no contact was made.

That was called an unsafe return to the track.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:34 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Rockie wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:


Again, i think this is a good point. And we should also factor in the verdicts of the stewards. Which as strange as it seems, they did not punish vettel. But Hamilton was deemed responsible for crashing into albon, which did ruin his race totally. Hamilton was lucky to not get more damage than he did. With this factored in, i can still see why some may think what hamilton did was as bad. Although i am surprised vettel didn't get a penalty, there must be some hidden explanation as to why that is. So at the moment, i don't think i'm going to be as against vettel as ost are. But Hamilton did get a clear cut penalty.



Its the double standard Vettel does it, its a stick to beat him with, but if Hamilton does wrong it does not matter.

To put this in perspective Hamilton taking Albon out of a race got exactly the same punishment as Vettel in Canada where no contact was made.


... and Vettel got away frank free despite causing a crash that was worse and more dangerous than Hamilton-Albon. I would say Vettel got very, very lucky to escape further license points ...


I know the stewards are often inconsistent with their decisions, but i do wonder if they are taking into concideration vettel's more rather than the very unfortunate outcome. Leclerc basically did the same on Bottas in Hungary and did not get any penalty. Vettel and Leclerc were incredibly unfortunate that such a tiny touch could result in so much damage. Most of the time, it would not result like that. Vettel was the one that did the move, but had it done no harm (which could well have been the case), do you think they will have even investigated it? You have to question that. Given they did investigate it and chose to go no further, I think there has to be some reason for this which may be hidden from us. It was Vettel's fault, but the outcome was unlucky. I am certain we have seen other drivers do similar and avoid damage. If they judged it based on the move rather than the outcome, then i can understand why they investigated it no further actually. But they need to work on their consistency in that case.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 8:47 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I think Vettel was again faster than Charles all weekend. SC gave Charles free pitstop with fresh tyres.

I think he may have been. As I noted, I voted against him for the incident, not for any lack of pace. I expect others feel the same.

But you voted for Hamilton the double standards never ceases to amaze.

I don't see the two incidents as equivalent. Hamilton (and Ricciardo) made a sloppy racing move, but Vettel did something inexcusably stupid.

I disagree, he was ahead and tried to squeeze Leclerc to the inside. We see that almost every race.

You could argue he did it too early or too aggressively but that would fall firmly into the category of sloppy racing move, since the driver further ahead while side by side dictating the line is something we see frequently.

It's not in any rulebook but it's standard driving practice and while Vettel instigated the contact and is therefore at fault I dont think Leclerc is totally innocent. I firmly believe for example if it were Verstappen doing that exact thing in that scenario there wouldn't have been a crash, Leclerc would have moved with the squeeze.


Look at this clip at around 52-54 seconds. Leclerc doesn't really have time to react to Vettel moving across they're too close to begin with.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:08 pm 
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Did hulkenberg make a mistake at the end or something to be at the back, if he didn't then i can not understand why Ricciardo has far more voted than him. Ricciardo did another of his rather oppertunistic lunges that failed and damaged his own and magnussen's car. Plus he got a penalty for it. The safety car saved his race and messed it up for hulkenberg.

I've also got to question why there are any votes for magnussen over Grosjean. it is looking quite close actually. Probably many people just expecting that it was Grosjean's fault for dropping back when he actually had an MGU-K failure. He outperformed Magnussen the entire weekend. Lost far less positions at the start even before Ricciardo collided with magnussen. Was running right up in the points before he had his problem. He had been as high as 6th at one point.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 9:26 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Did hulkenberg make a mistake at the end or something to be at the back, if he didn't then i can not understand why Ricciardo has far more voted than him. Ricciardo did another of his rather oppertunistic lunges that failed and damaged his own and magnussen's car. Plus he got a penalty for it. The safety car saved his race and messed it up for hulkenberg.

I've also got to question why there are any votes for magnussen over Grosjean. it is looking quite close actually. Probably many people just expecting that it was Grosjean's fault for dropping back when he actually had an MGU-K failure. He outperformed Magnussen the entire weekend. Lost far less positions at the start even before Ricciardo collided with magnussen. Was running right up in the points before he had his problem. He had been as high as 6th at one point.


Ricciardo and Hulkenberg both made mistakes at got 5 second penalties so are even on that score and Ricciardo outperformed Hulkenberg throughout the weekend.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 18, 2019 11:08 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Did hulkenberg make a mistake at the end or something to be at the back, if he didn't then i can not understand why Ricciardo has far more voted than him. Ricciardo did another of his rather oppertunistic lunges that failed and damaged his own and magnussen's car. Plus he got a penalty for it. The safety car saved his race and messed it up for hulkenberg.

I've also got to question why there are any votes for magnussen over Grosjean. it is looking quite close actually. Probably many people just expecting that it was Grosjean's fault for dropping back when he actually had an MGU-K failure. He outperformed Magnussen the entire weekend. Lost far less positions at the start even before Ricciardo collided with magnussen. Was running right up in the points before he had his problem. He had been as high as 6th at one point.


Ricciardo and Hulkenberg both made mistakes at got 5 second penalties so are even on that score and Ricciardo outperformed Hulkenberg throughout the weekend.

But surely given that ricciardo was deemed responsible for the contact (which had already given him a load of damage), and without the safety car would be way behind Hulkenberg even if Hulkenberg got a penalty too. Even if Ricciardo was quicker, I don't see that as much of a reason. ricciardo was lucky that the safety car brought him back into the fight.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 7:20 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Did hulkenberg make a mistake at the end or something to be at the back, if he didn't then i can not understand why Ricciardo has far more voted than him. Ricciardo did another of his rather oppertunistic lunges that failed and damaged his own and magnussen's car. Plus he got a penalty for it. The safety car saved his race and messed it up for hulkenberg.

I've also got to question why there are any votes for magnussen over Grosjean. it is looking quite close actually. Probably many people just expecting that it was Grosjean's fault for dropping back when he actually had an MGU-K failure. He outperformed Magnussen the entire weekend. Lost far less positions at the start even before Ricciardo collided with magnussen. Was running right up in the points before he had his problem. He had been as high as 6th at one point.


Ricciardo and Hulkenberg both made mistakes at got 5 second penalties so are even on that score and Ricciardo outperformed Hulkenberg throughout the weekend.

But surely given that ricciardo was deemed responsible for the contact (which had already given him a load of damage), and without the safety car would be way behind Hulkenberg even if Hulkenberg got a penalty too. Even if Ricciardo was quicker, I don't see that as much of a reason. ricciardo was lucky that the safety car brought him back into the fight.


We have lots of safety cars. I've rarely seen attempts to factor them out in the past. Ricciardo and Hulkenberg both made a mistake. Ricciardo was the quicker driver through the weekend.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:01 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Did hulkenberg make a mistake at the end or something to be at the back, if he didn't then i can not understand why Ricciardo has far more voted than him. Ricciardo did another of his rather oppertunistic lunges that failed and damaged his own and magnussen's car. Plus he got a penalty for it. The safety car saved his race and messed it up for hulkenberg.

I've also got to question why there are any votes for magnussen over Grosjean. it is looking quite close actually. Probably many people just expecting that it was Grosjean's fault for dropping back when he actually had an MGU-K failure. He outperformed Magnussen the entire weekend. Lost far less positions at the start even before Ricciardo collided with magnussen. Was running right up in the points before he had his problem. He had been as high as 6th at one point.


Ricciardo and Hulkenberg both made mistakes at got 5 second penalties so are even on that score and Ricciardo outperformed Hulkenberg throughout the weekend.

But surely given that ricciardo was deemed responsible for the contact (which had already given him a load of damage), and without the safety car would be way behind Hulkenberg even if Hulkenberg got a penalty too. Even if Ricciardo was quicker, I don't see that as much of a reason. ricciardo was lucky that the safety car brought him back into the fight.


We have lots of safety cars. I've rarely seen attempts to factor them out in the past. Ricciardo and Hulkenberg both made a mistake. Ricciardo was the quicker driver through the weekend.

But Ricciardo's mistake had far bigger consequences... And his penalty of suffering them and getting the 5 second penalty meant nothing with the luck of the safety car. yes, i am saying it again, but had there not been one, the damage he suffered from his own mistake will have resulted in him finishing out of the points and well behind his team mate. I doubt he would have more votes if that happened. It was just luck that brought him back into the fight. He was faster yes, but to me he didn't do a better job over the weekend. Hulkenberg made a mistake closer to the end which wasn't any where near as big but cost him more at the time.

If this is the reason why we are against Hulkenberg, then that is almost a reason to vote Bottas over hamilton. As Bottas will have beaten Hamilton due to his penalty for a mistake near the end and having the luck of catching up due to the safety car (if not for his retirement).


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:15 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Did hulkenberg make a mistake at the end or something to be at the back, if he didn't then i can not understand why Ricciardo has far more voted than him. Ricciardo did another of his rather oppertunistic lunges that failed and damaged his own and magnussen's car. Plus he got a penalty for it. The safety car saved his race and messed it up for hulkenberg.

I've also got to question why there are any votes for magnussen over Grosjean. it is looking quite close actually. Probably many people just expecting that it was Grosjean's fault for dropping back when he actually had an MGU-K failure. He outperformed Magnussen the entire weekend. Lost far less positions at the start even before Ricciardo collided with magnussen. Was running right up in the points before he had his problem. He had been as high as 6th at one point.


Ricciardo and Hulkenberg both made mistakes at got 5 second penalties so are even on that score and Ricciardo outperformed Hulkenberg throughout the weekend.

But surely given that ricciardo was deemed responsible for the contact (which had already given him a load of damage), and without the safety car would be way behind Hulkenberg even if Hulkenberg got a penalty too. Even if Ricciardo was quicker, I don't see that as much of a reason. ricciardo was lucky that the safety car brought him back into the fight.


We have lots of safety cars. I've rarely seen attempts to factor them out in the past. Ricciardo and Hulkenberg both made a mistake. Ricciardo was the quicker driver through the weekend.

But Ricciardo's mistake had far bigger consequences... And his penalty of suffering them and getting the 5 second penalty meant nothing with the luck of the safety car. yes, i am saying it again, but had there not been one, the damage he suffered from his own mistake will have resulted in him finishing out of the points and well behind his team mate. I doubt he would have more votes if that happened. It was just luck that brought him back into the fight. He was faster yes, but to me he didn't do a better job over the weekend. Hulkenberg made a mistake closer to the end which wasn't any where near as big but cost him more at the time.

If this is the reason why we are against Hulkenberg, then that is almost a reason to vote Bottas over hamilton. As Bottas will have beaten Hamilton due to his penalty for a mistake near the end and having the luck of catching up due to the safety car (if not for his retirement).



So Hulkenberg's mistake actually had the bigger consequences?

I find it quite odd that you choose to abstain on the Ferrari vote because even though Vettel made a big mistake he was quicker than Leclerc whilst you would vote Hulkenberg despite him making an error and being slower. Seems like If you would vote for Hulkenberg then voting for Leclerc (slower but no mistake) would be a no-brainer.

If you considered Hamilton at fault for the Albon clash then I don't think it would be unreasonable to vote for Bottas. Of course, Bottas would be nowhere near Hamilton without the safety car so seeing as you insist on factoring out the safety car I don't see how you personally could but others who don't do that could legitimately vote for Bottas.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 19, 2019 9:52 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Ricciardo and Hulkenberg both made mistakes at got 5 second penalties so are even on that score and Ricciardo outperformed Hulkenberg throughout the weekend.

But surely given that ricciardo was deemed responsible for the contact (which had already given him a load of damage), and without the safety car would be way behind Hulkenberg even if Hulkenberg got a penalty too. Even if Ricciardo was quicker, I don't see that as much of a reason. ricciardo was lucky that the safety car brought him back into the fight.


We have lots of safety cars. I've rarely seen attempts to factor them out in the past. Ricciardo and Hulkenberg both made a mistake. Ricciardo was the quicker driver through the weekend.

But Ricciardo's mistake had far bigger consequences... And his penalty of suffering them and getting the 5 second penalty meant nothing with the luck of the safety car. yes, i am saying it again, but had there not been one, the damage he suffered from his own mistake will have resulted in him finishing out of the points and well behind his team mate. I doubt he would have more votes if that happened. It was just luck that brought him back into the fight. He was faster yes, but to me he didn't do a better job over the weekend. Hulkenberg made a mistake closer to the end which wasn't any where near as big but cost him more at the time.

If this is the reason why we are against Hulkenberg, then that is almost a reason to vote Bottas over hamilton. As Bottas will have beaten Hamilton due to his penalty for a mistake near the end and having the luck of catching up due to the safety car (if not for his retirement).



So Hulkenberg's mistake actually had the bigger consequences?

I find it quite odd that you choose to abstain on the Ferrari vote because even though Vettel made a big mistake he was quicker than Leclerc whilst you would vote Hulkenberg despite him making an error and being slower. Seems like If you would vote for Hulkenberg then voting for Leclerc (slower but no mistake) would be a no-brainer.

If you considered Hamilton at fault for the Albon clash then I don't think it would be unreasonable to vote for Bottas. Of course, Bottas would be nowhere near Hamilton without the safety car so seeing as you insist on factoring out the safety car I don't see how you personally could but others who don't do that could legitimately vote for Bottas.


I didn't vote for the ferrari's because there was no penalty given to either. And I did think vettel was better the vast majority of the wee, i would have voted for Leclerc.

Hulkenberg was unlucky in the same way as hamilton that his mistake cost him more positions, but ricciardo's maistake was big enough that he broke his car and lost loads of time. That mistake is far bigger than hulkenberg's IMO and is enough of a reason to vote for him IMO.

And yes, I do think Hamilton was at fault for that move on albon, and although Bottas seemed pretty close in qualifying, he was a fair way off in the race and his retirement also hides what he could have done. So I would vote Hamilton over him.

But as I said, if we do factor in the safety car, i think it makes it appear like ricciardo did nothing wrong earlier in the race as the penalty of the damage and extra time penalty is nor irrelivent. Hulkenberg made a mistake at a worse time i guess, but overall, i struggle to see how he did a better job. If people are voting Ricciardo for this reason, then again, given hamilton made a mistake at a bad time which cost him many positions, more votes should go to Bottas.

Still seems like we won't agree, but anyhow, we can all think differently.

I think I will be going for these below. But I have yet to decide on Stroll or Perez. But as I said, I think I am leaving ferrari out of this. I don't know why they would leave it if one driver was clearly responsible. I am thinking that they may have left it as similar has happened before without such unfortunate circumstances. And drivers have got away with simply touching and causing no damage. If they judged this on the slightest touch (which we have seen several times with other drives side by side) and not the effect of it, then it wasn't as bad as it looks and is not enough of a reason to vote Leclerc over Vettel in my view. But I would struggle to vote the other way round.

Hamilton
Verstappen
Sainz
Hulkenberg
Gasly
Raikkonen
Grosjean
Russel


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