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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:41 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I do not think anyone cherry picked drivers. All of the ones that went outside the track limits should get punished in an ideal scenario

Indeed the same applies for everyone, I only noticed Hamilton doing it but there may have been others.

Drivers should only be penalised if they actually break a rule, I don't like drivers exceeding track limits either but it wasn't being policed by the stewards and the drivers knew this going into qualifying.


Like the one that says that they should stick within the track limits?

That being the case why do the stewards normally have to tell the drivers were they can abuse track limits, on certain corners they sometimes decide no advantage has been gained so it's alright to do so, I can't help feel there's a certain blinkeredness to the mechanisms that play out.

This is something I raised in this thread, the rules say one thing and then in different tracks they have different rules. It is silly and shouldn't be the case


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:43 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
It's pretty staggering that some people are actually in favour of track limits not being enforced, otherwise what is the point of putting the white line markings in? If you leave the track for no good reason then there should be a penalty for this.


It is amazing that one has to actually defend the existence of the rules while people advocate the breach of them... Madness! Just change the rule then to say that specific tracks can have specific allowances, depending on the layout and how some corners naturally force the cars off track more than others.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:46 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.


I think you will find that the pole lap was mentioned as the majority who want strict enforcement either didn't notice others doing it, were not watching at the time, or in one case did notice but IIRC felt that the ones they did watch didn't make any time up by going off. To be fair Max only did it four times in Q3, so easily missed. Taking out those who were shown doing it I think the revised grid would have been Ham-Leclerc-Albon-Norris.

But then as in this case if you just select Ham as your example the solution is pretty easy; nothing changes, he keeps pole. But when you look at the grid as a whole the solutions proposed become messy. So maybe that's why posters would rather just use the one driver who isn't affected as their example? Simple solutions?
I looked at the Qualifying Highlights video, to see if they showed something from the first runs in Q3. Although I wasn't only focused on Hamilton only when I made my first post, but was alerted to the problem because his pole lap was shown just before the race, I now obviously looked at Hamilton's first run. After showing a car running over a camera hidden in a kerb, the footage shows the final part of Hamilton's first Q3 lap, opening with a shot of him going off-track coming out of turn 19. (Time index 2:58 in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VznTrKgSExM) So if the rules had been policed strictly, that would have seen a different driver start from pole. Which one is hard to tell; it might well be one of the cars so far off the pace, they could actually race by the rules.
Of the other ones shown for the first runs of Q3, Vettel and Verstappen run off at the final corner, but Bottas and Leclerc don't. That doesn't mean they didn't run off the track anywhere else, but it isn't shown.

There may well have been drivers who ran off the track in their timed laps in Q1, yet "made it" to Q2. Same again for those in Q2 who "made it" into Q3. Would it be too cynical to suggest somebody should try and determine who would have been the real pole sitter last Sunday? I don't watch many other sports, but I doubt very many of them would allow such liberties and make the footage available for everyone to see.

The mechanism of the weekend is that drivers are told during the practice sessions what they can do in regards to track limits, in this respect no rules were broken in qualifying.

Only that Fiki included the race notes that do not include that corner, so in this respect they most certainly broke the "rules"


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:55 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
If you want to make your point without being accused of doing so out of bias, make it as soon as you see drivers going wide considering that majority of drivers were doing it throughout all of quali. Don't wait till the end of the session in silence and then go "Hamilton went out the circuit on his pole lap it should be deleted".

Posting like that you're obviously gonna get called on a bias, so dont be surprised when it happens, because intentional or not you look biased as anything

I don't think you can accuse Fiki of bias against Hamilton frankly; only against rule breaking

Not accusing him of bias, just saying his initial post sparked this because it was badly put across. I agree with his opinion 100% but there's no way you could have watched quali and not seen other drivers doing it until seeing the pole lap

Apologies then, I thought you were unfairly attacking Fiki's view. But for all you know he could be watching the highlights before the race that usually covers the pole run, it is not that he woke up one day and decided that he will have to have a go at Hamilton's lap. And he did mention that others may have done it too.

Maybe he could have worded it better, but this is like losing the forest behind the tree. The issue is the blatant disregard of a rule and not people vs Hamilton, this issue has been mentioned before (hell, Poker who's advocating against penalising it was complaining himself about RB breaking it earlier in this very thread!) but maybe not highlighted as much as it should have. Anyway it is getting tiring, instead of debating the obvious, that a rule is a rule and like it or not it has to be obeyed, maybe we should concentrate on how to fix this. There are ways, but whether the FIA and the teams want to do something about it is different.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 8:58 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
It's pretty staggering that some people are actually in favour of track limits not being enforced, otherwise what is the point of putting the white line markings in? If you leave the track for no good reason then there should be a penalty for this.


Its pretty staggering that people want to spend untold amounts of money , time, adjudication and effort to punish somebody who has already been punished with a time deficit by going off. Its staggering that someone who momentarily loses the back end to track limits (and a considerable amount of time) during a Brazilian downpour should be penalised further.
But whats not staggering is that those who wants track limits enforced can't even agree on the implementation of such a regime. 'no good reason'; 'automatic deletion','maybe relax the rule during the race', 'not unless you gain time'.
Noting that almost none of these tracks have the wherewithal to even police it properly; or the manpower and systems in place even if the vast sums of money to install such a system were made available.

I'm sorry shoot, but this is absurd, are you implying that they all go off track knowing that they would lose time??? The reason they are going off track is that they know it is the fastest way.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:00 am 
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WHoff78 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
It's pretty staggering that some people are actually in favour of track limits not being enforced, otherwise what is the point of putting the white line markings in? If you leave the track for no good reason then there should be a penalty for this.

I think people are just being rational. In every sport there are rules and laws that it just isn’t practical to enforce to the letter in every single circumstance. In motorsport this is one example.

I struggle to think of a rule like that in other sports to be honest


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:01 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.

I didn't see much of a back down after it was explained that other drivers were doing the same and the track limits were not being policed.

You can't be asking for lap times to be deleted when drivers are not breaking any rules.

Let me help you with that, this is what Fiki wrote:

Fiki wrote:
Read it again, I wrote that I just watched the pole lap again. Who else was there to focus on, when they only show you the lap that was awarded the pole position? It struck me that the driver - whose name is immaterial - went off-track at the final corner. I know that other drivers went off, and I was just as surprised about their times also being allowed to stand.

I believe an athlete in a sprint number was disqualified for straying into another competitor's lane this year. What makes the FIA think they should allow F1 drivers more leeway?



Crystal clear that he is not aiming at Hamilton, which ever way anyone may want to read this...

He knew that other drivers went off the track but initially only wanted to highlight Hamilton's pole lap and said it should have been deleted.


Yes he knew and he also mentioned it. It's just that he happened to be watching the pole lap and noticed it, please come off the Hamilton bias angle


Exactly. When a driver is a 6 time WDC and gets pole position, they are going to get far more TV coverage than the majority of other drivers so it's more likely we see laps of his.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:07 am 
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Exediron wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
jono794 wrote:
Enforce every white line. Imagine if we were having this argument about Tennis or Football.

So remind us again how you enforce 5 plus miles of meandering white lines in all weathers? And if we take Q3 alone thats 20 corners x 10 drivers x 2 runs; so 400 events to investigate before we declare a top ten grid. What evidence are you going to use to prove an infringement. Multiple cameras? Lets hope its not raining. How many people are you going to use to view footage and whose going to decide whether that Ferrari at Monza really needs to be touching the white to be 'on track'. And whose going to pay for this full proof system when you decide which system you need?

Buried wire, transponders on the car. If they go over the line, the system picks it up and automatically tags them. It doesn't need to be on all 5 miles -- just corners, and maybe even just exits.

Having a computer do it eliminates any need for stewards to consider the 'merits' of the case. Just like having walls, it becomes a question of getting as near as possible without going over -- risk/reward, not just taking advantage of lax rules.


So you differ from those who want every track transgression punished automatically. Partial track monitoring? So not a million miles away from those of us who just want the corners, etc where you can gain time monitored.

The simple solutions; wires, cameras. lasers, have all been tried and failed. Motorvision have been experimenting with this for years and the costs alone of whats needed is prohibitive. They have taken a pragmatic and cost effective approach, just three pressure pads at the most obvious places where track limits can be abused, augmented with cctv and yes, they do still need the human element. And that's only at their primary track.

What some of the most ardent supporters of penalties wont like is they do use coloured paint and extend kerb colours ; as do MotoGP, where it is more pragmatic and safer to extend the track limits beyond the white lines. It always seem to me odd that people throw their hands up in horror at this approach yet wouldn't have a problem if after the driver/stewards meeting those very same painters painted in revised white lines, whilst matey behind them painted out the old. Think I'll have a look at the COTA thread and see how badly posters reacted to this coloured paint approach they rolled out in Sector 3.


Last edited by shoot999 on Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:16 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:

Exactly. When a driver is a 6 time WDC and gets pole position, they are going to get far more TV coverage than the majority of other drivers so it's more likely we see laps of his.


Actually Max got more air time on his last run, and I think every one of the top 4 was shown taking the last corner.

And please dont jump to a conclusion and assume thats me pointing a finger at Fiki. Although it does surprise me when posters get on their high horse about a subject, only to admit later, they didn't watch it, didn't hear it, or didn't notice.

btw the Ham/Leclerc side by side comparison from AD is on youtube.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:34 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
It's pretty staggering that some people are actually in favour of track limits not being enforced, otherwise what is the point of putting the white line markings in? If you leave the track for no good reason then there should be a penalty for this.


Its pretty staggering that people want to spend untold amounts of money , time, adjudication and effort to punish somebody who has already been punished with a time deficit by going off. Its staggering that someone who momentarily loses the back end to track limits (and a considerable amount of time) during a Brazilian downpour should be penalised further.
But whats not staggering is that those who wants track limits enforced can't even agree on the implementation of such a regime. 'no good reason'; 'automatic deletion','maybe relax the rule during the race', 'not unless you gain time'.
Noting that almost none of these tracks have the wherewithal to even police it properly; or the manpower and systems in place even if the vast sums of money to install such a system were made available.


I said going beyond the track limits for ''no good reason'', and then you mention losing the back end in the rain. That counts as a good reason for going off and wouldn't be penalised if you lose a bunch of time with the error.

However something that should be clean and pure, like a qualifying lap time, should absolutely not count if it involves straying outside the track boundaries. In the race, if the lap time is competitive and there is no significant time loss from exceeding track limits, then say a 2 second penalty should be applied. These can be applied after the race if need-be and of course sometimes this will affect the outcome of the race, but that is fine.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:38 am 
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WHoff78 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
It's pretty staggering that some people are actually in favour of track limits not being enforced, otherwise what is the point of putting the white line markings in? If you leave the track for no good reason then there should be a penalty for this.

I think people are just being rational. In every sport there are rules and laws that it just isn’t practical to enforce to the letter in every single circumstance. In motorsport this is one example.


There was a qualifying session a few races ago where Albon got very quickly flagged up for going off track and his time was deleted. Was this just bad luck for Albon that he just happened to have been seen by the stewards and so they applied the rules to him, whereas had the stewards not been looking at that moment he would have got away with it?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:40 am 
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F1 Racer wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
F1 Racer wrote:
It's pretty staggering that some people are actually in favour of track limits not being enforced, otherwise what is the point of putting the white line markings in? If you leave the track for no good reason then there should be a penalty for this.

I think people are just being rational. In every sport there are rules and laws that it just isn’t practical to enforce to the letter in every single circumstance. In motorsport this is one example.


There was a qualifying session a few races ago where Albon got very quickly flagged up for going off track and his time was deleted. Was this just bad luck for Albon that he just happened to have been seen by the stewards and so they applied the rules to him, whereas had the stewards not been looking at that moment he would have got away with it?

It was Austin I think


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:01 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

Exactly. When a driver is a 6 time WDC and gets pole position, they are going to get far more TV coverage than the majority of other drivers so it's more likely we see laps of his.


Actually Max got more air time on his last run, and I think every one of the top 4 was shown taking the last corner.

And please dont jump to a conclusion and assume thats me pointing a finger at Fiki. Although it does surprise me when posters get on their high horse about a subject, only to admit later, they didn't watch it, didn't hear it, or didn't notice.

btw the Ham/Leclerc side by side comparison from AD is on youtube.


Why the hell have you written that to me? I've hardly said a thing on the subject. I was merely pointing out to all that top drivers get the most air-time so issues are more likely to be noticed.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:10 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

Exactly. When a driver is a 6 time WDC and gets pole position, they are going to get far more TV coverage than the majority of other drivers so it's more likely we see laps of his.


Actually Max got more air time on his last run, and I think every one of the top 4 was shown taking the last corner.

And please dont jump to a conclusion and assume thats me pointing a finger at Fiki. Although it does surprise me when posters get on their high horse about a subject, only to admit later, they didn't watch it, didn't hear it, or didn't notice.

btw the Ham/Leclerc side by side comparison from AD is on youtube.


Why the hell have you written that to me? I've hardly said a thing on the subject. I was merely pointing out to all that top drivers get the most air-time so issues are more likely to be noticed.

Because I was responding to your post . But I should have rephrased that part a bit better, a more generic statement that I'm not pointing the finger at Fiki if that's what people think? So apologies as on reflection it does read like a dig at you.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:10 am 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

Exactly. When a driver is a 6 time WDC and gets pole position, they are going to get far more TV coverage than the majority of other drivers so it's more likely we see laps of his.


Actually Max got more air time on his last run, and I think every one of the top 4 was shown taking the last corner.

And please dont jump to a conclusion and assume thats me pointing a finger at Fiki. Although it does surprise me when posters get on their high horse about a subject, only to admit later, they didn't watch it, didn't hear it, or didn't notice.

btw the Ham/Leclerc side by side comparison from AD is on youtube.


Why the hell have you written that to me? I've hardly said a thing on the subject. I was merely pointing out to all that top drivers get the most air-time so issues are more likely to be noticed.

You could still assume stuff would be my guess!!


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:18 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:

Exactly. When a driver is a 6 time WDC and gets pole position, they are going to get far more TV coverage than the majority of other drivers so it's more likely we see laps of his.


Actually Max got more air time on his last run, and I think every one of the top 4 was shown taking the last corner.

And please dont jump to a conclusion and assume thats me pointing a finger at Fiki. Although it does surprise me when posters get on their high horse about a subject, only to admit later, they didn't watch it, didn't hear it, or didn't notice.

btw the Ham/Leclerc side by side comparison from AD is on youtube.


Why the hell have you written that to me? I've hardly said a thing on the subject. I was merely pointing out to all that top drivers get the most air-time so issues are more likely to be noticed.

Because I was responding to your post . But I should have rephrased that part a bit better, a more generic statement that I'm not pointing the finger at Fiki if that's what people think? So apologies as on reflection it does read like a dig at you.


Thanks, all good.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:30 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
jono794 wrote:
Enforce every white line. Imagine if we were having this argument about Tennis or Football.

So remind us again how you enforce 5 plus miles of meandering white lines in all weathers? And if we take Q3 alone thats 20 corners x 10 drivers x 2 runs; so 400 events to investigate before we declare a top ten grid. What evidence are you going to use to prove an infringement. Multiple cameras? Lets hope its not raining. How many people are you going to use to view footage and whose going to decide whether that Ferrari at Monza really needs to be touching the white to be 'on track'. And whose going to pay for this full proof system when you decide which system you need?

Buried wire, transponders on the car. If they go over the line, the system picks it up and automatically tags them. It doesn't need to be on all 5 miles -- just corners, and maybe even just exits.

Having a computer do it eliminates any need for stewards to consider the 'merits' of the case. Just like having walls, it becomes a question of getting as near as possible without going over -- risk/reward, not just taking advantage of lax rules.


So you differ from those who want every track transgression punished automatically. Partial track monitoring? So not a million miles away from those of us who just want the corners, etc where you can gain time monitored.

The simple solutions; wires, cameras. lasers, have all been tried and failed. Motorvision have been experimenting with this for years and the costs alone of whats needed is prohibitive. They have taken a pragmatic and cost effective approach, just three pressure pads at the most obvious places where track limits can be abused, augmented with cctv and yes, they do still need the human element. And that's only at their primary track.

What some of the most ardent supporters of penalties wont like is they do use coloured paint and extend kerb colours ; as do MotoGP, where it is more pragmatic and safer to extend the track limits beyond the white lines. It always seem to me odd that people throw their hands up in horror at this approach yet wouldn't have a problem if after the driver/stewards meeting those very same painters painted in revised white lines, whilst matey behind them painted out the old. Think I'll have a look at the COTA thread and see how badly posters reacted to this coloured paint approach they rolled out in Sector 3.
Shoot, are you a fan of ever more systems? I'm not.

Every car already has cameras on it, and in the majority of cases their footage is more than enough to show whether the driver kept it on the island or not. One alteration that might be deemed desirable, is to return to a camera centred on top of the intake, such as we saw in the mid-1990s, just to tackle the parallax problem. But as we all can see, most of the time this isn't even necessary.
Taking the Hamilton runs in Q3 at Abu Dhabi as an example of why it will often not be necessary to install more and more systems; in both his runs, it was immediately clear he went off. In his first run, that was simply by viewing what the trackside camera showed us. If you and I can see that, so can Race Control, and so can the Stewards.

Besides the TV evidence, it is one of the tasks of marshalling posts to report transgressions to Race Control. They may not always have the clearest view of things, but if they report a potential problem, the Stewards can get on the case.

It surprises me to see so many people willing to let the drivers more or less do as they like, for fear of having qualifying results altered. And yet that is precisely what happens almost every race because of cars having mechanical components replaced. Bottas started last at Abu Dhabi because of this. Penalties from the previous race can have an influence on the grid, so I don't see why breaking the rules in the current qualifying should not.

Especially at a time when we see such a drive for "spectacle" instead of sport, I would have thought an uncharacteristic grid because of dropped qualifying laps would be welcomed by most casual fans.

Edited to correct 'parallax'. It appears I got cross-eyed typing it the first time. :D

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 10:43 am 
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The MotoSportVision and SPL approach in more detail; although aimed more at race conditions.



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:32 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Indeed the same applies for everyone, I only noticed Hamilton doing it but there may have been others.

Drivers should only be penalised if they actually break a rule, I don't like drivers exceeding track limits either but it wasn't being policed by the stewards and the drivers knew this going into qualifying.


Like the one that says that they should stick within the track limits?

That being the case why do the stewards normally have to tell the drivers were they can abuse track limits, on certain corners they sometimes decide no advantage has been gained so it's alright to do so, I can't help feel there's a certain blinkeredness to the mechanisms that play out.

This is something I raised in this thread, the rules say one thing and then in different tracks they have different rules. It is silly and shouldn't be the case

This is what happens though and has been happening for years, it feels like some people have just woke up?

Also I circle back to when I brought this up in practice nobody was interested, now all of a sudden there seems to be mad interest.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:35 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Pretty sure that his pole lap was mentioned as an example, most likely because it would be the e replayed during coverage. He wasn't specifically targeted.


I think you will find that the pole lap was mentioned as the majority who want strict enforcement either didn't notice others doing it, were not watching at the time, or in one case did notice but IIRC felt that the ones they did watch didn't make any time up by going off. To be fair Max only did it four times in Q3, so easily missed. Taking out those who were shown doing it I think the revised grid would have been Ham-Leclerc-Albon-Norris.

But then as in this case if you just select Ham as your example the solution is pretty easy; nothing changes, he keeps pole. But when you look at the grid as a whole the solutions proposed become messy. So maybe that's why posters would rather just use the one driver who isn't affected as their example? Simple solutions?
I looked at the Qualifying Highlights video, to see if they showed something from the first runs in Q3. Although I wasn't only focused on Hamilton only when I made my first post, but was alerted to the problem because his pole lap was shown just before the race, I now obviously looked at Hamilton's first run. After showing a car running over a camera hidden in a kerb, the footage shows the final part of Hamilton's first Q3 lap, opening with a shot of him going off-track coming out of turn 19. (Time index 2:58 in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VznTrKgSExM) So if the rules had been policed strictly, that would have seen a different driver start from pole. Which one is hard to tell; it might well be one of the cars so far off the pace, they could actually race by the rules.
Of the other ones shown for the first runs of Q3, Vettel and Verstappen run off at the final corner, but Bottas and Leclerc don't. That doesn't mean they didn't run off the track anywhere else, but it isn't shown.

There may well have been drivers who ran off the track in their timed laps in Q1, yet "made it" to Q2. Same again for those in Q2 who "made it" into Q3. Would it be too cynical to suggest somebody should try and determine who would have been the real pole sitter last Sunday? I don't watch many other sports, but I doubt very many of them would allow such liberties and make the footage available for everyone to see.

The mechanism of the weekend is that drivers are told during the practice sessions what they can do in regards to track limits, in this respect no rules were broken in qualifying.

Only that Fiki included the race notes that do not include that corner, so in this respect they most certainly broke the "rules"

No they specify the corners were you will be penalised.

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2016: 4th Place

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Drivers should only be penalised if they actually break a rule, I don't like drivers exceeding track limits either but it wasn't being policed by the stewards and the drivers knew this going into qualifying.


Like the one that says that they should stick within the track limits?

That being the case why do the stewards normally have to tell the drivers were they can abuse track limits, on certain corners they sometimes decide no advantage has been gained so it's alright to do so, I can't help feel there's a certain blinkeredness to the mechanisms that play out.

This is something I raised in this thread, the rules say one thing and then in different tracks they have different rules. It is silly and shouldn't be the case

This is what happens though and has been happening for years, it feels like some people have just woke up?

Also I circle back to when I brought this up in practice nobody was interested, now all of a sudden there seems to be mad interest.

I can't comment for anyone else, but I don't get into the forum in the weekends normally myself. In the off season it may be a point of discussion, not much else going on anyway apart from a Perez/Vettel incident in testing.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
shoot999 wrote:

I think you will find that the pole lap was mentioned as the majority who want strict enforcement either didn't notice others doing it, were not watching at the time, or in one case did notice but IIRC felt that the ones they did watch didn't make any time up by going off. To be fair Max only did it four times in Q3, so easily missed. Taking out those who were shown doing it I think the revised grid would have been Ham-Leclerc-Albon-Norris.

But then as in this case if you just select Ham as your example the solution is pretty easy; nothing changes, he keeps pole. But when you look at the grid as a whole the solutions proposed become messy. So maybe that's why posters would rather just use the one driver who isn't affected as their example? Simple solutions?
I looked at the Qualifying Highlights video, to see if they showed something from the first runs in Q3. Although I wasn't only focused on Hamilton only when I made my first post, but was alerted to the problem because his pole lap was shown just before the race, I now obviously looked at Hamilton's first run. After showing a car running over a camera hidden in a kerb, the footage shows the final part of Hamilton's first Q3 lap, opening with a shot of him going off-track coming out of turn 19. (Time index 2:58 in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VznTrKgSExM) So if the rules had been policed strictly, that would have seen a different driver start from pole. Which one is hard to tell; it might well be one of the cars so far off the pace, they could actually race by the rules.
Of the other ones shown for the first runs of Q3, Vettel and Verstappen run off at the final corner, but Bottas and Leclerc don't. That doesn't mean they didn't run off the track anywhere else, but it isn't shown.

There may well have been drivers who ran off the track in their timed laps in Q1, yet "made it" to Q2. Same again for those in Q2 who "made it" into Q3. Would it be too cynical to suggest somebody should try and determine who would have been the real pole sitter last Sunday? I don't watch many other sports, but I doubt very many of them would allow such liberties and make the footage available for everyone to see.

The mechanism of the weekend is that drivers are told during the practice sessions what they can do in regards to track limits, in this respect no rules were broken in qualifying.

Only that Fiki included the race notes that do not include that corner, so in this respect they most certainly broke the "rules"

No they specify the corners were you will be penalised.

How do you know that? I'm pretty sure they only mention the corners that they make exceptions in these notes. Otherwise all of them should be penalised under the rules.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:44 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Like the one that says that they should stick within the track limits?

That being the case why do the stewards normally have to tell the drivers were they can abuse track limits, on certain corners they sometimes decide no advantage has been gained so it's alright to do so, I can't help feel there's a certain blinkeredness to the mechanisms that play out.

This is something I raised in this thread, the rules say one thing and then in different tracks they have different rules. It is silly and shouldn't be the case

This is what happens though and has been happening for years, it feels like some people have just woke up?

Also I circle back to when I brought this up in practice nobody was interested, now all of a sudden there seems to be mad interest.

I can't comment for anyone else, but I don't get into the forum in the weekends normally myself. In the off season it may be a point of discussion, not much else going on anyway apart from a Perez/Vettel incident in testing.

Fair enough but as a generalisation it is a bit frustrating when people just watch a snippet of the weekend and then can make sweeping statements.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 12:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That being the case why do the stewards normally have to tell the drivers were they can abuse track limits, on certain corners they sometimes decide no advantage has been gained so it's alright to do so, I can't help feel there's a certain blinkeredness to the mechanisms that play out.

This is something I raised in this thread, the rules say one thing and then in different tracks they have different rules. It is silly and shouldn't be the case

This is what happens though and has been happening for years, it feels like some people have just woke up?

Also I circle back to when I brought this up in practice nobody was interested, now all of a sudden there seems to be mad interest.

I can't comment for anyone else, but I don't get into the forum in the weekends normally myself. In the off season it may be a point of discussion, not much else going on anyway apart from a Perez/Vettel incident in testing.

Fair enough but as a generalisation it is a bit frustrating when people just watch a snippet of the weekend and then can make sweeping statements.

It depends, do you expect people not to mention something that they spot? Things like this come up often, then they die for a period until they are brought up again after a while. You can't expect people to be outraged by this all the time. F1 seems to work like that sometimes, they don't address things until they are forgotten...


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:10 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I looked at the Qualifying Highlights video, to see if they showed something from the first runs in Q3. Although I wasn't only focused on Hamilton only when I made my first post, but was alerted to the problem because his pole lap was shown just before the race, I now obviously looked at Hamilton's first run. After showing a car running over a camera hidden in a kerb, the footage shows the final part of Hamilton's first Q3 lap, opening with a shot of him going off-track coming out of turn 19. (Time index 2:58 in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VznTrKgSExM) So if the rules had been policed strictly, that would have seen a different driver start from pole. Which one is hard to tell; it might well be one of the cars so far off the pace, they could actually race by the rules.
Of the other ones shown for the first runs of Q3, Vettel and Verstappen run off at the final corner, but Bottas and Leclerc don't. That doesn't mean they didn't run off the track anywhere else, but it isn't shown.

There may well have been drivers who ran off the track in their timed laps in Q1, yet "made it" to Q2. Same again for those in Q2 who "made it" into Q3. Would it be too cynical to suggest somebody should try and determine who would have been the real pole sitter last Sunday? I don't watch many other sports, but I doubt very many of them would allow such liberties and make the footage available for everyone to see.

The mechanism of the weekend is that drivers are told during the practice sessions what they can do in regards to track limits, in this respect no rules were broken in qualifying.

Only that Fiki included the race notes that do not include that corner, so in this respect they most certainly broke the "rules"

No they specify the corners were you will be penalised.

How do you know that? I'm pretty sure they only mention the corners that they make exceptions in these notes. Otherwise all of them should be penalised under the rules.

Just by watching the process over the weekends, they clearly make judgements on corners after watching the drivers in practice, at Monza this year they clearly made a point that all 4 wheels on the green run off would result in a deleted lap, I can't remember this being a specific ruling last year.

They don't just willy nilly delete laps in qualifying without having informed the drivers before hand what they can't and cannot do with regards to track limits, there's a declaration that certain corners are a no, no.

In Abu Dhabi there was no such declarations and I think I'm perhaps more on the ball with this being the only one to flag up the abuse of track limits in practice after noticing both Red Bull cars going off the same part of the track and improving their lap times, this was obviously deliberate to gain lap time.

I excepted some kind of warnings being issued to drivers going into qualifying but heard nothing so basically knew it was going to be a free for all going into qualifying and therefore was surprised to have to read the consternation of Hamilton's pole lap not being deleted.

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Last edited by pokerman on Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:14 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
I think you will find that the pole lap was mentioned as the majority who want strict enforcement either didn't notice others doing it, were not watching at the time, or in one case did notice but IIRC felt that the ones they did watch didn't make any time up by going off. To be fair Max only did it four times in Q3, so easily missed. Taking out those who were shown doing it I think the revised grid would have been Ham-Leclerc-Albon-Norris.

But then as in this case if you just select Ham as your example the solution is pretty easy; nothing changes, he keeps pole. But when you look at the grid as a whole the solutions proposed become messy. So maybe that's why posters would rather just use the one driver who isn't affected as their example? Simple solutions?
I looked at the Qualifying Highlights video, to see if they showed something from the first runs in Q3. Although I wasn't only focused on Hamilton only when I made my first post, but was alerted to the problem because his pole lap was shown just before the race, I now obviously looked at Hamilton's first run. After showing a car running over a camera hidden in a kerb, the footage shows the final part of Hamilton's first Q3 lap, opening with a shot of him going off-track coming out of turn 19. (Time index 2:58 in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VznTrKgSExM) So if the rules had been policed strictly, that would have seen a different driver start from pole. Which one is hard to tell; it might well be one of the cars so far off the pace, they could actually race by the rules.
Of the other ones shown for the first runs of Q3, Vettel and Verstappen run off at the final corner, but Bottas and Leclerc don't. That doesn't mean they didn't run off the track anywhere else, but it isn't shown.

There may well have been drivers who ran off the track in their timed laps in Q1, yet "made it" to Q2. Same again for those in Q2 who "made it" into Q3. Would it be too cynical to suggest somebody should try and determine who would have been the real pole sitter last Sunday? I don't watch many other sports, but I doubt very many of them would allow such liberties and make the footage available for everyone to see.

The mechanism of the weekend is that drivers are told during the practice sessions what they can do in regards to track limits, in this respect no rules were broken in qualifying.

Only that Fiki included the race notes that do not include that corner, so in this respect they most certainly broke the "rules"

No they specify the corners were you will be penalised.
Either you misunderstood what I posted directly from the race notes, or you didn't bother to read what I posted, or you didn't read the race notes from the FIA website directly. But there is no mention about which corners you would be penalised at Pokerman.
Nor did they specify which corners drivers would be allowed to run off the track at. So...?

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:16 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
This is something I raised in this thread, the rules say one thing and then in different tracks they have different rules. It is silly and shouldn't be the case

This is what happens though and has been happening for years, it feels like some people have just woke up?

Also I circle back to when I brought this up in practice nobody was interested, now all of a sudden there seems to be mad interest.

I can't comment for anyone else, but I don't get into the forum in the weekends normally myself. In the off season it may be a point of discussion, not much else going on anyway apart from a Perez/Vettel incident in testing.

Fair enough but as a generalisation it is a bit frustrating when people just watch a snippet of the weekend and then can make sweeping statements.

It depends, do you expect people not to mention something that they spot? Things like this come up often, then they die for a period until they are brought up again after a while. You can't expect people to be outraged by this all the time. F1 seems to work like that sometimes, they don't address things until they are forgotten...

Drivers abusing track limits is a common occurrence, I have to wonder what people see and don't see.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:21 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I looked at the Qualifying Highlights video, to see if they showed something from the first runs in Q3. Although I wasn't only focused on Hamilton only when I made my first post, but was alerted to the problem because his pole lap was shown just before the race, I now obviously looked at Hamilton's first run. After showing a car running over a camera hidden in a kerb, the footage shows the final part of Hamilton's first Q3 lap, opening with a shot of him going off-track coming out of turn 19. (Time index 2:58 in the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VznTrKgSExM) So if the rules had been policed strictly, that would have seen a different driver start from pole. Which one is hard to tell; it might well be one of the cars so far off the pace, they could actually race by the rules.
Of the other ones shown for the first runs of Q3, Vettel and Verstappen run off at the final corner, but Bottas and Leclerc don't. That doesn't mean they didn't run off the track anywhere else, but it isn't shown.

There may well have been drivers who ran off the track in their timed laps in Q1, yet "made it" to Q2. Same again for those in Q2 who "made it" into Q3. Would it be too cynical to suggest somebody should try and determine who would have been the real pole sitter last Sunday? I don't watch many other sports, but I doubt very many of them would allow such liberties and make the footage available for everyone to see.

The mechanism of the weekend is that drivers are told during the practice sessions what they can do in regards to track limits, in this respect no rules were broken in qualifying.

Only that Fiki included the race notes that do not include that corner, so in this respect they most certainly broke the "rules"

No they specify the corners were you will be penalised.
Either you misunderstood what I posted directly from the race notes, or you didn't bother to read what I posted, or you didn't read the race notes from the FIA website directly. But there is no mention about which corners you would be penalised at Pokerman.
Nor did they specify which corners drivers would be allowed to run off the track at. So...?

I've just actually addressed that, going into qualifying was a free for all in respect to track limits so there was no need for the stewards to specify anything.

They just had the one corner were drivers had to return to the track in a specific way.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:25 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
The mechanism of the weekend is that drivers are told during the practice sessions what they can do in regards to track limits, in this respect no rules were broken in qualifying.

Only that Fiki included the race notes that do not include that corner, so in this respect they most certainly broke the "rules"

No they specify the corners were you will be penalised.
Either you misunderstood what I posted directly from the race notes, or you didn't bother to read what I posted, or you didn't read the race notes from the FIA website directly. But there is no mention about which corners you would be penalised at Pokerman.
Nor did they specify which corners drivers would be allowed to run off the track at. So...?

I've just actually addressed that, going into qualifying was a free for all in respect to track limits so there was no need for the stewards to specify anything.

They just had the one corner were drivers had to return to the track in a specific way.

So "no need to specify anything" = "free to roam outside the track"?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:02 pm 
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The fact that there needs to be notification from the stewards regarding which corners they'll penalise driving off the track, just shows what a mess we're in. Surely, especially in quali, any car that goes off track at any point of a fast lap should have that lap deleted. The stewards shouldn't need to give permission for some corners and no permission for others.

We're giving Roger Federer an ace for that serve, even thought it was outside the service court, because we didn't think the bit of grass the ball landed on was an area where any advantage would be gained.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:22 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
The fact that there needs to be notification from the stewards regarding which corners they'll penalise driving off the track, just shows what a mess we're in. Surely, especially in quali, any car that goes off track at any point of a fast lap should have that lap deleted. The stewards shouldn't need to give permission for some corners and no permission for others.

We're giving Roger Federer an ace for that serve, even thought it was outside the service court, because we didn't think the bit of grass the ball landed on was an area where any advantage would be gained.

Hear hear :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:31 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

They just had the one corner were drivers had to return to the track in a specific way.

So "no need to specify anything" = "free to roam outside the track"?


Maybe? Whiting at least took the trouble occasional to explain certain track limits; and pointed out where there were no restrictions-usually where no time was gained. Same with the entry into a qually lap. IIRC both in AD and RB Ring you were not allowed to go off before the final corner to enable a faster entry onto the straight. One of the reasons both tracks have a sausage kerb between the last two corners. Ive always assumed thats like a standing order or understanding between the Race Director and drivers and therefore no need to repeat every time you visit said track. But I'm only guessing.
But as pokerman said, both RBs were straight-lining the end of sector 2 with no come back. So maybe this is all part of their let them race and keep us in the dark philosophy? Or maybe they are still tying to convince themselves why Vettel can have no part of his car either on the track or white lines, yet can still be considered on track?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:47 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

They just had the one corner were drivers had to return to the track in a specific way.

So "no need to specify anything" = "free to roam outside the track"?


Maybe? Whiting at least took the trouble occasional to explain certain track limits; and pointed out where there were no restrictions-usually where no time was gained. Same with the entry into a qually lap. IIRC both in AD and RB Ring you were not allowed to go off before the final corner to enable a faster entry onto the straight. One of the reasons both tracks have a sausage kerb between the last two corners. Ive always assumed thats like a standing order or understanding between the Race Director and drivers and therefore no need to repeat every time you visit said track. But I'm only guessing.
But as pokerman said, both RBs were straight-lining the end of sector 2 with no come back. So maybe this is all part of their let them race and keep us in the dark philosophy? Or maybe they are still tying to convince themselves why Vettel can have no part of his car either on the track or white lines, yet can still be considered on track?

Bold part: this still does not explain what was asked earlier: why would they go off track if not to gain time? They have absolutely no reason, which ever way you look at it.

And in the end of the day, Whiting explaining or not, there is a rule that stipulates that they should be within the track, well you know the rest and I don't want to repeat two pages of discussion again... The RBs, Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, doesn't matter who it is so don't get stuck to that, they should all follow the same rules.

I do not get the last part about Vettel, can you please explain?


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 2:49 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

They just had the one corner were drivers had to return to the track in a specific way.

So "no need to specify anything" = "free to roam outside the track"?


Maybe? Whiting at least took the trouble occasional to explain certain track limits; and pointed out where there were no restrictions-usually where no time was gained. Same with the entry into a qually lap. IIRC both in AD and RB Ring you were not allowed to go off before the final corner to enable a faster entry onto the straight. One of the reasons both tracks have a sausage kerb between the last two corners. Ive always assumed thats like a standing order or understanding between the Race Director and drivers and therefore no need to repeat every time you visit said track. But I'm only guessing.
But as pokerman said, both RBs were straight-lining the end of sector 2 with no come back. So maybe this is all part of their let them race and keep us in the dark philosophy? Or maybe they are still tying to convince themselves why Vettel can have no part of his car either on the track or white lines, yet can still be considered on track?

Bold part: this still does not explain what was asked earlier: why would they go off track if not to gain time? They have absolutely no reason, which ever way you look at it.

And in the end of the day, Whiting explaining or not, there is a rule that stipulates that they should be within the track, well you know the rest and I don't want to repeat two pages of discussion again... The RBs, Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, doesn't matter who it is so don't get stuck to that, they should all follow the same rules.

I do not get the last part about Vettel, can you please explain?


I think he's referring to Monza where despite it being explicitly stated that going off track at the parabolica would get your time deleted Vettel's lap was allowed to stand.

Unfortunately the stewarding was dire that weekend in general.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:02 pm 
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Interesting how people moan at track designs but then we get people saying it's OK to ignore the circuit at times. The odd wide line during a race is fine of course, but a constant misuse of the circuit or a single misuse in qualifying should never ever ever be allowed.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:06 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

They just had the one corner were drivers had to return to the track in a specific way.

So "no need to specify anything" = "free to roam outside the track"?


Maybe? Whiting at least took the trouble occasional to explain certain track limits; and pointed out where there were no restrictions-usually where no time was gained. Same with the entry into a qually lap. IIRC both in AD and RB Ring you were not allowed to go off before the final corner to enable a faster entry onto the straight. One of the reasons both tracks have a sausage kerb between the last two corners. Ive always assumed thats like a standing order or understanding between the Race Director and drivers and therefore no need to repeat every time you visit said track. But I'm only guessing.
But as pokerman said, both RBs were straight-lining the end of sector 2 with no come back. So maybe this is all part of their let them race and keep us in the dark philosophy? Or maybe they are still tying to convince themselves why Vettel can have no part of his car either on the track or white lines, yet can still be considered on track?

Bold part: this still does not explain what was asked earlier: why would they go off track if not to gain time? They have absolutely no reason, which ever way you look at it.

And in the end of the day, Whiting explaining or not, there is a rule that stipulates that they should be within the track, well you know the rest and I don't want to repeat two pages of discussion again... The RBs, Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, doesn't matter who it is so don't get stuck to that, they should all follow the same rules.

I do not get the last part about Vettel, can you please explain?


For the same reason they hit a sausage kerb or barrier. That's not to gain time either, its because they are pushing.
As for Vettel, the rules said that you have to be in contact with the track or white line. Vettel wasnt, but was judged to be on track because in their opinion a bit of this tyre was hanging over the white line. So all this talk about how easy it is to police is just talk. It maybe simple to check on a 50 ft straight line with VAR, not so easy on 5 miles of winding track. When the people who install these things tell us that its complex and expensive, and a miser like Palmer spends a shed load of money to have a complex system installed; I take what they say onboard. There is no simple solution. So much so as I'm confident that there will not be a system in place anytime in the near future to satisfy the purists.
Although I would add better stewarding would be welcome by most.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:15 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:

They just had the one corner were drivers had to return to the track in a specific way.

So "no need to specify anything" = "free to roam outside the track"?


Maybe? Whiting at least took the trouble occasional to explain certain track limits; and pointed out where there were no restrictions-usually where no time was gained. Same with the entry into a qually lap. IIRC both in AD and RB Ring you were not allowed to go off before the final corner to enable a faster entry onto the straight. One of the reasons both tracks have a sausage kerb between the last two corners. Ive always assumed thats like a standing order or understanding between the Race Director and drivers and therefore no need to repeat every time you visit said track. But I'm only guessing.
But as pokerman said, both RBs were straight-lining the end of sector 2 with no come back. So maybe this is all part of their let them race and keep us in the dark philosophy? Or maybe they are still tying to convince themselves why Vettel can have no part of his car either on the track or white lines, yet can still be considered on track?

Bold part: this still does not explain what was asked earlier: why would they go off track if not to gain time? They have absolutely no reason, which ever way you look at it.

And in the end of the day, Whiting explaining or not, there is a rule that stipulates that they should be within the track, well you know the rest and I don't want to repeat two pages of discussion again... The RBs, Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, doesn't matter who it is so don't get stuck to that, they should all follow the same rules.

I do not get the last part about Vettel, can you please explain?


For the same reason they hit a sausage kerb or barrier. That's not to gain time either, its because they are pushing.
As for Vettel, the rules said that you have to be in contact with the track or white line. Vettel wasnt, but was judged to be on track because in their opinion a bit of this tyre was hanging over the white line. So all this talk about how easy it is to police is just talk. It maybe simple to check on a 50 ft straight line with VAR, not so easy on 5 miles of winding track. When the people who install these things tell us that its complex and expensive, and a miser like Palmer spends a shed load of money to have a complex system installed; I take what they say onboard. There is no simple solution. So much so as I'm confident that there will not be a system in place anytime in the near future to satisfy the purists.
Although I would add better stewarding would be welcome by most.


I may be really thick here, but aren't they pushing in order to get a better time? You are saying the same thing essentially, the only reason they do this is to get the best time.

I didn't remember the Vettel incident, thanks to Mikey I know what you meant now. He should have been punished all the same if he went outside the track, be it a mm or a whole meter. And I know it is difficult to police, but the solution is not to just forget it and let them at it. Again, if they changed the rule to say that in a few specific places it is ok to go out of the track, I would have no issue personally. It does make it a grey area I suppose, how far outside the track can someone go, but at least it would stop some people complaining.

As it is, this practice is against the rules, such a simple concept to understand frankly


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:31 pm 
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Of course they are pushing to get a better time, and occasionally they hit a barrier and get punished, occasionally they end up in the gravel, and occasionally then run wide and get punished by a loss of time. My point has always been why do you want to issue a time penalty or whatever to someone who has lost time or thrown away a lap. Where they can and do gain time they should be penalised. But do it by irrefutable evidence. Not in the opinion of some steward with an agenda. And if the majority of people like me want to see them kissing a barrier rather than keep within some sterile white lines (turn 19 AD) , then get out on track and paint the white line out at that corner. In fact isn't that one of the cries from the white line purists? 'They wouldn't do it if there was a barrier there!'

And they are experimenting with permissible track limits, they did it at COTA this year by following the MotoGP example. If its painted green your off track limits.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:46 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
Of course they are pushing to get a better time, and occasionally they hit a barrier and get punished, occasionally they end up in the gravel, and occasionally then run wide and get punished by a loss of time. My point has always been why do you want to issue a time penalty or whatever to someone who has lost time or thrown away a lap. Where they can and do gain time they should be penalised. But do it by irrefutable evidence. Not in the opinion of some steward with an agenda. And if the majority of people like me want to see them kissing a barrier rather than keep within some sterile white lines (turn 19 AD) , then get out on track and paint the white line out at that corner. In fact isn't that one of the cries from the white line purists? 'They wouldn't do it if there was a barrier there!'


Or move the barrier closer.

I don't know why the idea that the drivers should drive the track as prescribed is so controversial? It's the issue I have always had with tarmac run off. It completely changes how a driver attacks a corner. Far less skill at taking a corner at 100% if you know when you muck it up you won't lose out. It really benefits the average driver.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 3:49 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
As for Vettel, the rules said that you have to be in contact with the track or white line. Vettel wasnt, but was judged to be on track because in their opinion a bit of this tyre was hanging over the white line.
Just for the sake of argument; do you remember the real reason Vettel's time was allowed to stand? I didn't, so I looked it up.

And just in case Pokerman would like to throw in that the race notes allowed people to go slightly wide at the Parabolica, they didn't. I looked it up.

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