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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 9:02 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I just watched the pole lap again, and Hamilton was off-track in the final corner. Whether others remain on-track for their runs deliberately or inadvertently, it does penalize them if transgressions aren't tackled.
If both of Hamilton's laps were off-track, then he shouldn't be starting from pole position.

Somebody else it seems focused only on Hamilton, the track limits clearly were not being policed.


Its even more amusing when you watch Q3 and see who in the top 5 actually gets a clean lap in and should be on pole if they policed all the corners as some wish.


If you weren't good enough to keep the car on the track you weren't good enough for pole IMO. Of course only times using the prescribed course should count.

Were not all the drivers doing it?


Nope. Ham had the fastest of the clean laps.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I just watched the pole lap again, and Hamilton was off-track in the final corner. Whether others remain on-track for their runs deliberately or inadvertently, it does penalize them if transgressions aren't tackled.
If both of Hamilton's laps were off-track, then he shouldn't be starting from pole position.

Somebody else it seems focused only on Hamilton, the track limits clearly were not being policed.
Focused only on Hamilton? Who else 'got' pole?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:20 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I just watched the pole lap again, and Hamilton was off-track in the final corner. Whether others remain on-track for their runs deliberately or inadvertently, it does penalize them if transgressions aren't tackled.
If both of Hamilton's laps were off-track, then he shouldn't be starting from pole position.

Somebody else it seems focused only on Hamilton, the track limits clearly were not being policed.
Focused only on Hamilton? Who else 'got' pole?


So it's only punishable of it leads to pole? Come on Fiki

They always advise the drivers what corners track limits are being policed, considering no other drivers complained about Hamilton's lap and others were doing the same as Lewis at that corner goes to show that it was never really something they felt mattered


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:33 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I just watched the pole lap again, and Hamilton was off-track in the final corner. Whether others remain on-track for their runs deliberately or inadvertently, it does penalize them if transgressions aren't tackled.
If both of Hamilton's laps were off-track, then he shouldn't be starting from pole position.

Somebody else it seems focused only on Hamilton, the track limits clearly were not being policed.
Focused only on Hamilton? Who else 'got' pole?


So it's only punishable of it leads to pole? Come on Fiki

They always advise the drivers what corners track limits are being policed, considering no other drivers complained about Hamilton's lap and others were doing the same as Lewis at that corner goes to show that it was never really something they felt mattered
Read it again, I wrote that I just watched the pole lap again. Who else was there to focus on, when they only show you the lap that was awarded the pole position? It struck me that the driver - whose name is immaterial - went off-track at the final corner. I know that other drivers went off, and I was just as surprised about their times also being allowed to stand.

I believe an athlete in a sprint number was disqualified for straying into another competitor's lane this year. What makes the FIA think they should allow F1 drivers more leeway?

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Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:41 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I just watched the pole lap again, and Hamilton was off-track in the final corner. Whether others remain on-track for their runs deliberately or inadvertently, it does penalize them if transgressions aren't tackled.
If both of Hamilton's laps were off-track, then he shouldn't be starting from pole position.

Somebody else it seems focused only on Hamilton, the track limits clearly were not being policed.
Focused only on Hamilton? Who else 'got' pole?

So only the pole lap should get penalised?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:46 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I just watched the pole lap again, and Hamilton was off-track in the final corner. Whether others remain on-track for their runs deliberately or inadvertently, it does penalize them if transgressions aren't tackled.
If both of Hamilton's laps were off-track, then he shouldn't be starting from pole position.

Somebody else it seems focused only on Hamilton, the track limits clearly were not being policed.
Focused only on Hamilton? Who else 'got' pole?


So it's only punishable of it leads to pole? Come on Fiki

They always advise the drivers what corners track limits are being policed, considering no other drivers complained about Hamilton's lap and others were doing the same as Lewis at that corner goes to show that it was never really something they felt mattered
Read it again, I wrote that I just watched the pole lap again. Who else was there to focus on, when they only show you the lap that was awarded the pole position? It struck me that the driver - whose name is immaterial - went off-track at the final corner. I know that other drivers went off, and I was just as surprised about their times also being allowed to stand.

I believe an athlete in a sprint number was disqualified for straying into another competitor's lane this year. What makes the FIA think they should allow F1 drivers more leeway?

If you know that other drivers were not penalised for doing similar why is it an issue that the pole lap in particular was not penalised?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I just watched the pole lap again, and Hamilton was off-track in the final corner. Whether others remain on-track for their runs deliberately or inadvertently, it does penalize them if transgressions aren't tackled.
If both of Hamilton's laps were off-track, then he shouldn't be starting from pole position.

Somebody else it seems focused only on Hamilton, the track limits clearly were not being policed.
Focused only on Hamilton? Who else 'got' pole?

So only the pole lap should get penalised?
What on earth gives you that idea? I can't see all the drivers' laps, and only the pole lap is shown in the warm-up to the race, on the channel I can watch the race on.

I can understand race control/stewards being a bit less strict if a driver makes a little mistake during the race, but according to the rules, even then only the track is to be used.

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Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Somebody else it seems focused only on Hamilton, the track limits clearly were not being policed.
Focused only on Hamilton? Who else 'got' pole?


So it's only punishable of it leads to pole? Come on Fiki

They always advise the drivers what corners track limits are being policed, considering no other drivers complained about Hamilton's lap and others were doing the same as Lewis at that corner goes to show that it was never really something they felt mattered
Read it again, I wrote that I just watched the pole lap again. Who else was there to focus on, when they only show you the lap that was awarded the pole position? It struck me that the driver - whose name is immaterial - went off-track at the final corner. I know that other drivers went off, and I was just as surprised about their times also being allowed to stand.

I believe an athlete in a sprint number was disqualified for straying into another competitor's lane this year. What makes the FIA think they should allow F1 drivers more leeway?

If you know that other drivers were not penalised for doing similar why is it an issue that the pole lap in particular was not penalised?
Because it would reset the necessary standard if all but the laps that were achieved without leaving the track were retained.
There is a reason why so many drivers, the fastest among them included, leave the track consistently.

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Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:56 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I just watched the pole lap again, and Hamilton was off-track in the final corner. Whether others remain on-track for their runs deliberately or inadvertently, it does penalize them if transgressions aren't tackled.
If both of Hamilton's laps were off-track, then he shouldn't be starting from pole position.

Somebody else it seems focused only on Hamilton, the track limits clearly were not being policed.
Focused only on Hamilton? Who else 'got' pole?

So only the pole lap should get penalised?
What on earth gives you that idea? I can't see all the drivers' laps, and only the pole lap is shown in the warm-up to the race, on the channel I can watch the race on.

I can understand race control/stewards being a bit less strict if a driver makes a little mistake during the race, but according to the rules, even then only the track is to be used.

In another post you said you was aware of other drivers doing similar and not being penalised.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:58 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
So it's only punishable of it leads to pole? Come on Fiki

They always advise the drivers what corners track limits are being policed, considering no other drivers complained about Hamilton's lap and others were doing the same as Lewis at that corner goes to show that it was never really something they felt mattered
Read it again, I wrote that I just watched the pole lap again. Who else was there to focus on, when they only show you the lap that was awarded the pole position? It struck me that the driver - whose name is immaterial - went off-track at the final corner. I know that other drivers went off, and I was just as surprised about their times also being allowed to stand.

I believe an athlete in a sprint number was disqualified for straying into another competitor's lane this year. What makes the FIA think they should allow F1 drivers more leeway?

If you know that other drivers were not penalised for doing similar why is it an issue that the pole lap in particular was not penalised?
Because it would reset the necessary standard if all but the laps that were achieved without leaving the track were retained.
There is a reason why so many drivers, the fastest among them included, leave the track consistently.

Were was the edit about track limits for this track?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2019 10:59 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I just watched the pole lap again, and Hamilton was off-track in the final corner. Whether others remain on-track for their runs deliberately or inadvertently, it does penalize them if transgressions aren't tackled.
If both of Hamilton's laps were off-track, then he shouldn't be starting from pole position.

Somebody else it seems focused only on Hamilton, the track limits clearly were not being policed.
Focused only on Hamilton? Who else 'got' pole?

So only the pole lap should get penalised?

And if the pole lap was penalised Hams first lap, which was clean, would have been pole. And under this scenario both Max and Seb would have been put at the back.
Funny the more strongly someone feels about these Ham transgressions, the less they seem to notice it in others?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:07 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I just watched the pole lap again, and Hamilton was off-track in the final corner. Whether others remain on-track for their runs deliberately or inadvertently, it does penalize them if transgressions aren't tackled.
If both of Hamilton's laps were off-track, then he shouldn't be starting from pole position.

Somebody else it seems focused only on Hamilton, the track limits clearly were not being policed.
Focused only on Hamilton? Who else 'got' pole?

So only the pole lap should get penalised?

And if the pole lap was penalised Hams first lap, which was clean, would have been pole. And under this scenario both Max and Seb would have been put at the back.
Funny the more strongly someone feels about these Ham transgressions, the less they seem to notice it in others?
I couldn't say if his first lap was completely on-track or not, it may well have been. I watched qualifying, but they don't show all laps by all drivers anyway.

I don't mind if a driver is demoted to the back for leaving the track, rules are rules and should apply to all drivers.

pokerman wrote:
In another post you said you was aware of other drivers doing similar and not being penalised.
I'm aware of more than just that! :D

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Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:23 am 
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Guy's you need to get over this Hamilton thing. Nobody should be leaving the circuit on their quali laps. If they do that lap should not count - WHOEVER THEY ARE. Obviously in this case Hamilton was brought up because as the pole sitter his was the most obvious case. Nobody is denying other drivers didn't do it either or that Hamilton would have ended up on pole anyway.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:56 am 
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Hamilton's first lap was clean and still good enough for pole.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:30 am 
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Clarky wrote:
Hamilton's first lap was clean and still good enough for pole.


Which is totally irrelevant to drivers not being able to use the prescribed track although it does prove that those of us wanting drivers to use the track properly aren't against Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:41 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Guy's you need to get over this Hamilton thing. Nobody should be leaving the circuit on their quali laps. If they do that lap should not count - WHOEVER THEY ARE. Obviously in this case Hamilton was brought up because as the pole sitter his was the most obvious case. Nobody is denying other drivers didn't do it either or that Hamilton would have ended up on pole anyway.


I agree, but until F1 and most other motorsports change the way the limits are policed and dealt with on an ad hoc basis during each race weekend, the present situation will continue. And given that most within F1 and spectators alike don't seem to have an issue with it I don't see anything changing; despite a few individuals bringing it up on a regular basis. And even those few individuals can't seem to agree on how it should be policed.
And of course its obvious Ham would be bought up as the pole sitter, in the same way it would be obvious to point out that his clean lap would have still left him on pole.
And whilst it maybe your opinion that Ham with one clean lap and one off track lap is still an obvious candidate, others may consider those who transgressed on both their laps as being even more obvious. If for no other reason then they would be severely penalised for failing to set a lap time in Q3.
Seems to me some like to look at an issue such as this and offer a glib 'oh the pole sitter should have lost pole'; yet don't seem to want to discuss the reality of such a draconian approach.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:53 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Guy's you need to get over this Hamilton thing. Nobody should be leaving the circuit on their quali laps. If they do that lap should not count - WHOEVER THEY ARE. Obviously in this case Hamilton was brought up because as the pole sitter his was the most obvious case. Nobody is denying other drivers didn't do it either or that Hamilton would have ended up on pole anyway.


I agree, but until F1 and most other motorsports change the way the limits are policed and dealt with on an ad hoc basis during each race weekend, the present situation will continue. And given that most within F1 and spectators alike don't seem to have an issue with it I don't see anything changing; despite a few individuals bringing it up on a regular basis. And even those few individuals can't seem to agree on how it should be policed.
And of course its obvious Ham would be bought up as the pole sitter, in the same way it would be obvious to point out that his clean lap would have still left him on pole.
And whilst it maybe your opinion that Ham with one clean lap and one off track lap is still an obvious candidate, others may consider those who transgressed on both their laps as being even more obvious. If for no other reason then they would be severely penalised for failing to set a lap time in Q3.
Seems to me some like to look at an issue such as this and offer a glib 'oh the pole sitter should have lost pole'; yet don't seem to want to discuss the reality of such a draconian approach.


I can't think why is this such an issue really, there is absolutely nothing draconian about it. Policing the track/court/pitch lines is fundamental in most sports, I can't think of any other sport that such abuse would get unpunished; we have introduced sensors in footballs to check if they crossed the goal line, VAR, the hawkeye technology in tennis, etc. Yet in arguably the most expensive and elite sport in the planet the drivers are allowed to abuse a rule and no one bats an eyelid.

It is almost like it is in the FIA's DNA to leave the door open for controversies...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:55 am 
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shoot999 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Guy's you need to get over this Hamilton thing. Nobody should be leaving the circuit on their quali laps. If they do that lap should not count - WHOEVER THEY ARE. Obviously in this case Hamilton was brought up because as the pole sitter his was the most obvious case. Nobody is denying other drivers didn't do it either or that Hamilton would have ended up on pole anyway.


I agree, but until F1 and most other motorsports change the way the limits are policed and dealt with on an ad hoc basis during each race weekend, the present situation will continue. And given that most within F1 and spectators alike don't seem to have an issue with it I don't see anything changing; despite a few individuals bringing it up on a regular basis. And even those few individuals can't seem to agree on how it should be policed.
And of course its obvious Ham would be bought up as the pole sitter, in the same way it would be obvious to point out that his clean lap would have still left him on pole.
And whilst it maybe your opinion that Ham with one clean lap and one off track lap is still an obvious candidate, others may consider those who transgressed on both their laps as being even more obvious. If for no other reason then they would be severely penalised for failing to set a lap time in Q3.
Seems to me some like to look at an issue such as this and offer a glib 'oh the pole sitter should have lost pole'; yet don't seem to want to discuss the reality of such a draconian approach.


Obviously worse transgressors but not as noticeable to the viewer surely. Proved by the fact that it was Hamilton who was noticed doing it.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:57 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Guy's you need to get over this Hamilton thing. Nobody should be leaving the circuit on their quali laps. If they do that lap should not count - WHOEVER THEY ARE. Obviously in this case Hamilton was brought up because as the pole sitter his was the most obvious case. Nobody is denying other drivers didn't do it either or that Hamilton would have ended up on pole anyway.


I agree, but until F1 and most other motorsports change the way the limits are policed and dealt with on an ad hoc basis during each race weekend, the present situation will continue. And given that most within F1 and spectators alike don't seem to have an issue with it I don't see anything changing; despite a few individuals bringing it up on a regular basis. And even those few individuals can't seem to agree on how it should be policed.
And of course its obvious Ham would be bought up as the pole sitter, in the same way it would be obvious to point out that his clean lap would have still left him on pole.
And whilst it maybe your opinion that Ham with one clean lap and one off track lap is still an obvious candidate, others may consider those who transgressed on both their laps as being even more obvious. If for no other reason then they would be severely penalised for failing to set a lap time in Q3.
Seems to me some like to look at an issue such as this and offer a glib 'oh the pole sitter should have lost pole'; yet don't seem to want to discuss the reality of such a draconian approach.


I can't think why is this such an issue really, there is absolutely nothing draconian about it. Policing the track/court/pitch lines is fundamental in most sports, I can't think of any other sport that such abuse would get unpunished; we have introduced sensors in footballs to check if they crossed the goal line, VAR, the hawkeye technology in tennis, etc. Yet in arguably the most expensive and elite sport in the planet the drivers are allowed to abuse a rule and no one bats an eyelid.

It is almost like it is in the FIA's DNA to leave the door open for controversies...


Yep and as soon as the rules were strictly enforced drivers would stop doing. We wouldn't see lots of penalties in the same way we don't see loads of cars in the wall in Quali in Monaco, Baku or Singapore.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 11:58 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Guy's you need to get over this Hamilton thing. Nobody should be leaving the circuit on their quali laps. If they do that lap should not count - WHOEVER THEY ARE. Obviously in this case Hamilton was brought up because as the pole sitter his was the most obvious case. Nobody is denying other drivers didn't do it either or that Hamilton would have ended up on pole anyway.


I agree, but until F1 and most other motorsports change the way the limits are policed and dealt with on an ad hoc basis during each race weekend, the present situation will continue. And given that most within F1 and spectators alike don't seem to have an issue with it I don't see anything changing; despite a few individuals bringing it up on a regular basis. And even those few individuals can't seem to agree on how it should be policed.
And of course its obvious Ham would be bought up as the pole sitter, in the same way it would be obvious to point out that his clean lap would have still left him on pole.
And whilst it maybe your opinion that Ham with one clean lap and one off track lap is still an obvious candidate, others may consider those who transgressed on both their laps as being even more obvious. If for no other reason then they would be severely penalised for failing to set a lap time in Q3.
Seems to me some like to look at an issue such as this and offer a glib 'oh the pole sitter should have lost pole'; yet don't seem to want to discuss the reality of such a draconian approach.


I can't think why is this such an issue really, there is absolutely nothing draconian about it. Policing the track/court/pitch lines is fundamental in most sports, I can't think of any other sport that such abuse would get unpunished; we have introduced sensors in footballs to check if they crossed the goal line, VAR, the hawkeye technology in tennis, etc. Yet in arguably the most expensive and elite sport in the planet the drivers are allowed to abuse a rule and no one bats an eyelid.

It is almost like it is in the FIA's DNA to leave the door open for controversies...


Yep and as soon as the rules were strictly enforced drivers would stop doing. We wouldn't see lots of penalties in the same way we don't see loads of cars in the wall in Quali in Monaco, Baku or Singapore.


Soooo, walls everywhere then???

:]


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:26 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Guy's you need to get over this Hamilton thing. Nobody should be leaving the circuit on their quali laps. If they do that lap should not count - WHOEVER THEY ARE. Obviously in this case Hamilton was brought up because as the pole sitter his was the most obvious case. Nobody is denying other drivers didn't do it either or that Hamilton would have ended up on pole anyway.


I agree, but until F1 and most other motorsports change the way the limits are policed and dealt with on an ad hoc basis during each race weekend, the present situation will continue. And given that most within F1 and spectators alike don't seem to have an issue with it I don't see anything changing; despite a few individuals bringing it up on a regular basis. And even those few individuals can't seem to agree on how it should be policed.
And of course its obvious Ham would be bought up as the pole sitter, in the same way it would be obvious to point out that his clean lap would have still left him on pole.
And whilst it maybe your opinion that Ham with one clean lap and one off track lap is still an obvious candidate, others may consider those who transgressed on both their laps as being even more obvious. If for no other reason then they would be severely penalised for failing to set a lap time in Q3.
Seems to me some like to look at an issue such as this and offer a glib 'oh the pole sitter should have lost pole'; yet don't seem to want to discuss the reality of such a draconian approach.


Obviously worse transgressors but not as noticeable to the viewer surely. Proved by the fact that it was Hamilton who was noticed doing it.


If you failed to notice Max taking the car park route you shouldn't be anywhere near a discussion on track limits. We are not all fixated on Hamilton to the total exclusion of everyone else as you seem to be.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:34 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Guy's you need to get over this Hamilton thing. Nobody should be leaving the circuit on their quali laps. If they do that lap should not count - WHOEVER THEY ARE. Obviously in this case Hamilton was brought up because as the pole sitter his was the most obvious case. Nobody is denying other drivers didn't do it either or that Hamilton would have ended up on pole anyway.


I agree, but until F1 and most other motorsports change the way the limits are policed and dealt with on an ad hoc basis during each race weekend, the present situation will continue. And given that most within F1 and spectators alike don't seem to have an issue with it I don't see anything changing; despite a few individuals bringing it up on a regular basis. And even those few individuals can't seem to agree on how it should be policed.
And of course its obvious Ham would be bought up as the pole sitter, in the same way it would be obvious to point out that his clean lap would have still left him on pole.
And whilst it maybe your opinion that Ham with one clean lap and one off track lap is still an obvious candidate, others may consider those who transgressed on both their laps as being even more obvious. If for no other reason then they would be severely penalised for failing to set a lap time in Q3.
Seems to me some like to look at an issue such as this and offer a glib 'oh the pole sitter should have lost pole'; yet don't seem to want to discuss the reality of such a draconian approach.


Obviously worse transgressors but not as noticeable to the viewer surely. Proved by the fact that it was Hamilton who was noticed doing it.


If you failed to notice Max taking the car park route you shouldn't be anywhere near a discussion on track limits. We are not all fixated on Hamilton to the total exclusion of everyone else as you seem to be.


I've literally said any lap that was not completed as prescribed should not count.

I really don't know how I could have been less Hamilton focused. My position on this could not be less complicated. :?


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:01 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Guy's you need to get over this Hamilton thing. Nobody should be leaving the circuit on their quali laps. If they do that lap should not count - WHOEVER THEY ARE. Obviously in this case Hamilton was brought up because as the pole sitter his was the most obvious case. Nobody is denying other drivers didn't do it either or that Hamilton would have ended up on pole anyway.


I agree, but until F1 and most other motorsports change the way the limits are policed and dealt with on an ad hoc basis during each race weekend, the present situation will continue. And given that most within F1 and spectators alike don't seem to have an issue with it I don't see anything changing; despite a few individuals bringing it up on a regular basis. And even those few individuals can't seem to agree on how it should be policed.
And of course its obvious Ham would be bought up as the pole sitter, in the same way it would be obvious to point out that his clean lap would have still left him on pole.
And whilst it maybe your opinion that Ham with one clean lap and one off track lap is still an obvious candidate, others may consider those who transgressed on both their laps as being even more obvious. If for no other reason then they would be severely penalised for failing to set a lap time in Q3.
Seems to me some like to look at an issue such as this and offer a glib 'oh the pole sitter should have lost pole'; yet don't seem to want to discuss the reality of such a draconian approach.


I can't think why is this such an issue really, there is absolutely nothing draconian about it. Policing the track/court/pitch lines is fundamental in most sports, I can't think of any other sport that such abuse would get unpunished; we have introduced sensors in footballs to check if they crossed the goal line, VAR, the hawkeye technology in tennis, etc. Yet in arguably the most expensive and elite sport in the planet the drivers are allowed to abuse a rule and no one bats an eyelid.

It is almost like it is in the FIA's DNA to leave the door open for controversies...


In its simplistic form the track when built isn't designed for the cars and bikes of today or tomorrow. Thats why barriers, corners, kerbs, run off areas, surfaces, etc are constantly changing. And why track limits are discussed and agreed upon each race meeting. Whether its F1 or your local kart or grass track meeting. And it has to be said other motives such as keeping the lap flowing, creating more overtaking opportunities, better viewing experiences, etc. And who knows how these cars are going to react on a track in 9 months time?
Introduce a blanket rule and the speeds at a number of tracks will go down, less overtaking opportunities, and occasionally one of these track limit measures will launch a car into a marshall post (Monza).
And how would it look in the real world? Each qually and race would result in us sitting round for hours waiting for the stewards to decide if a penalty should be applied, what penalty, and what order. Bit like the engine penalties of old. We would wake up the following day to get the grid or the race result. Brands Hatch have had a track limit system in place for years, and its still only used sparingly.
And if you think that is a bit over the top, MotoGP are way ahead on this compared to F1, colour coded track limits, penalty loops, instant VAR; and sometimes we still we have to wait hours whilst our favourite rider is demoted from pole to the 5th row, and then slowly back again to the front row as each penalty is applied.

Notwithstanding that F1 could make great strides by introducing penalty loops where its possible, colour coding track limits; as they did in the last sector of COTA, and getting broadcasters to inform the viewer before qually and the race.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:57 pm 
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shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Guy's you need to get over this Hamilton thing. Nobody should be leaving the circuit on their quali laps. If they do that lap should not count - WHOEVER THEY ARE. Obviously in this case Hamilton was brought up because as the pole sitter his was the most obvious case. Nobody is denying other drivers didn't do it either or that Hamilton would have ended up on pole anyway.


I agree, but until F1 and most other motorsports change the way the limits are policed and dealt with on an ad hoc basis during each race weekend, the present situation will continue. And given that most within F1 and spectators alike don't seem to have an issue with it I don't see anything changing; despite a few individuals bringing it up on a regular basis. And even those few individuals can't seem to agree on how it should be policed.
And of course its obvious Ham would be bought up as the pole sitter, in the same way it would be obvious to point out that his clean lap would have still left him on pole.
And whilst it maybe your opinion that Ham with one clean lap and one off track lap is still an obvious candidate, others may consider those who transgressed on both their laps as being even more obvious. If for no other reason then they would be severely penalised for failing to set a lap time in Q3.
Seems to me some like to look at an issue such as this and offer a glib 'oh the pole sitter should have lost pole'; yet don't seem to want to discuss the reality of such a draconian approach.


I can't think why is this such an issue really, there is absolutely nothing draconian about it. Policing the track/court/pitch lines is fundamental in most sports, I can't think of any other sport that such abuse would get unpunished; we have introduced sensors in footballs to check if they crossed the goal line, VAR, the hawkeye technology in tennis, etc. Yet in arguably the most expensive and elite sport in the planet the drivers are allowed to abuse a rule and no one bats an eyelid.

It is almost like it is in the FIA's DNA to leave the door open for controversies...


In its simplistic form the track when built isn't designed for the cars and bikes of today or tomorrow. Thats why barriers, corners, kerbs, run off areas, surfaces, etc are constantly changing. And why track limits are discussed and agreed upon each race meeting. Whether its F1 or your local kart or grass track meeting. And it has to be said other motives such as keeping the lap flowing, creating more overtaking opportunities, better viewing experiences, etc. And who knows how these cars are going to react on a track in 9 months time?
Introduce a blanket rule and the speeds at a number of tracks will go down, less overtaking opportunities, and occasionally one of these track limit measures will launch a car into a marshall post (Monza).
And how would it look in the real world? Each qually and race would result in us sitting round for hours waiting for the stewards to decide if a penalty should be applied, what penalty, and what order. Bit like the engine penalties of old. We would wake up the following day to get the grid or the race result. Brands Hatch have had a track limit system in place for years, and its still only used sparingly.
And if you think that is a bit over the top, MotoGP are way ahead on this compared to F1, colour coded track limits, penalty loops, instant VAR; and sometimes we still we have to wait hours whilst our favourite rider is demoted from pole to the 5th row, and then slowly back again to the front row as each penalty is applied.

Notwithstanding that F1 could make great strides by introducing penalty loops where its possible, colour coding track limits; as they did in the last sector of COTA, and getting broadcasters to inform the viewer before qually and the race.

Yes, tracks evolve, but this does not mean that the cars should be going off the tracks. And arguably the newer tracks should have allowed for the cars of today and tomorrow, but that is a different discussion I feel.

The track limits do not need any weird new technologies, a simple kitty litter or sticky mat trap would deter the drivers from getting outside the track limits. They do not have to take hours to make a decision, why would they? All they would have to do is either put traps like above that would deter the drivers to go outside the track or just change the regulations to something like "the cars should be broadly within the track limits if possible"... Another idea is to have it policed for the quali only, so that they have to have a clean lap at least then; during the race they may be able to race as they do now.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:29 pm 
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Posts: 3057
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Guy's you need to get over this Hamilton thing. Nobody should be leaving the circuit on their quali laps. If they do that lap should not count - WHOEVER THEY ARE. Obviously in this case Hamilton was brought up because as the pole sitter his was the most obvious case. Nobody is denying other drivers didn't do it either or that Hamilton would have ended up on pole anyway.


I agree, but until F1 and most other motorsports change the way the limits are policed and dealt with on an ad hoc basis during each race weekend, the present situation will continue. And given that most within F1 and spectators alike don't seem to have an issue with it I don't see anything changing; despite a few individuals bringing it up on a regular basis. And even those few individuals can't seem to agree on how it should be policed.
And of course its obvious Ham would be bought up as the pole sitter, in the same way it would be obvious to point out that his clean lap would have still left him on pole.
And whilst it maybe your opinion that Ham with one clean lap and one off track lap is still an obvious candidate, others may consider those who transgressed on both their laps as being even more obvious. If for no other reason then they would be severely penalised for failing to set a lap time in Q3.
Seems to me some like to look at an issue such as this and offer a glib 'oh the pole sitter should have lost pole'; yet don't seem to want to discuss the reality of such a draconian approach.


I can't think why is this such an issue really, there is absolutely nothing draconian about it. Policing the track/court/pitch lines is fundamental in most sports, I can't think of any other sport that such abuse would get unpunished; we have introduced sensors in footballs to check if they crossed the goal line, VAR, the hawkeye technology in tennis, etc. Yet in arguably the most expensive and elite sport in the planet the drivers are allowed to abuse a rule and no one bats an eyelid.

It is almost like it is in the FIA's DNA to leave the door open for controversies...


In its simplistic form the track when built isn't designed for the cars and bikes of today or tomorrow. Thats why barriers, corners, kerbs, run off areas, surfaces, etc are constantly changing. And why track limits are discussed and agreed upon each race meeting. Whether its F1 or your local kart or grass track meeting. And it has to be said other motives such as keeping the lap flowing, creating more overtaking opportunities, better viewing experiences, etc. And who knows how these cars are going to react on a track in 9 months time?
Introduce a blanket rule and the speeds at a number of tracks will go down, less overtaking opportunities, and occasionally one of these track limit measures will launch a car into a marshall post (Monza).
And how would it look in the real world? Each qually and race would result in us sitting round for hours waiting for the stewards to decide if a penalty should be applied, what penalty, and what order. Bit like the engine penalties of old. We would wake up the following day to get the grid or the race result. Brands Hatch have had a track limit system in place for years, and its still only used sparingly.
And if you think that is a bit over the top, MotoGP are way ahead on this compared to F1, colour coded track limits, penalty loops, instant VAR; and sometimes we still we have to wait hours whilst our favourite rider is demoted from pole to the 5th row, and then slowly back again to the front row as each penalty is applied.

Notwithstanding that F1 could make great strides by introducing penalty loops where its possible, colour coding track limits; as they did in the last sector of COTA, and getting broadcasters to inform the viewer before qually and the race.

Yes, tracks evolve, but this does not mean that the cars should be going off the tracks. And arguably the newer tracks should have allowed for the cars of today and tomorrow, but that is a different discussion I feel.

The track limits do not need any weird new technologies, a simple kitty litter or sticky mat trap would deter the drivers from getting outside the track limits. They do not have to take hours to make a decision, why would they? All they would have to do is either put traps like above that would deter the drivers to go outside the track or just change the regulations to something like "the cars should be broadly within the track limits if possible"... Another idea is to have it policed for the quali only, so that they have to have a clean lap at least then; during the race they may be able to race as they do now.


But its not only F1 that uses the tracks. Kitty litters or other barriers just to stop infringements for F1 will just leave a load of other classes; including bikers, novices, track day drivers in debt or in hospital. If it was as simple as you say then a cheapskate like J Palmer would have it installed at his tracks. As someone said at COTA this year when asked what the Indycars did; we ignored track limits and tried to turn it into an oval and no one cared!
Qually only? So we are looking at two different versions of the track per race meet? We do that now. Its decided over the weekend based on activity and incidents during practice, etc. And it tends to be safety driven; which I have no problem with.
As for your change of regulation; as I said before, even those who want to see it enforced can't even agree amongst themselves. You are suggesting 'broadly within the limits', yet further back in this thread someone sees the need to punish Ham who was just outside on one run, whilst another driver should be let off because he ran so wide he must have lost time.
I'm not proposing nothing should be done; but more that there is no simple rule or quick fix and a more structured approach should be adopted.
Personally I like the MotoGP approach, not only are the limits explained, the limits are there for all to see, and during the race invariably you can see the guy taking the appropriate penalty that doesn't completely destroy his race or our enjoyment.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16428
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:

I agree, but until F1 and most other motorsports change the way the limits are policed and dealt with on an ad hoc basis during each race weekend, the present situation will continue. And given that most within F1 and spectators alike don't seem to have an issue with it I don't see anything changing; despite a few individuals bringing it up on a regular basis. And even those few individuals can't seem to agree on how it should be policed.
And of course its obvious Ham would be bought up as the pole sitter, in the same way it would be obvious to point out that his clean lap would have still left him on pole.
And whilst it maybe your opinion that Ham with one clean lap and one off track lap is still an obvious candidate, others may consider those who transgressed on both their laps as being even more obvious. If for no other reason then they would be severely penalised for failing to set a lap time in Q3.
Seems to me some like to look at an issue such as this and offer a glib 'oh the pole sitter should have lost pole'; yet don't seem to want to discuss the reality of such a draconian approach.


I can't think why is this such an issue really, there is absolutely nothing draconian about it. Policing the track/court/pitch lines is fundamental in most sports, I can't think of any other sport that such abuse would get unpunished; we have introduced sensors in footballs to check if they crossed the goal line, VAR, the hawkeye technology in tennis, etc. Yet in arguably the most expensive and elite sport in the planet the drivers are allowed to abuse a rule and no one bats an eyelid.

It is almost like it is in the FIA's DNA to leave the door open for controversies...


In its simplistic form the track when built isn't designed for the cars and bikes of today or tomorrow. Thats why barriers, corners, kerbs, run off areas, surfaces, etc are constantly changing. And why track limits are discussed and agreed upon each race meeting. Whether its F1 or your local kart or grass track meeting. And it has to be said other motives such as keeping the lap flowing, creating more overtaking opportunities, better viewing experiences, etc. And who knows how these cars are going to react on a track in 9 months time?
Introduce a blanket rule and the speeds at a number of tracks will go down, less overtaking opportunities, and occasionally one of these track limit measures will launch a car into a marshall post (Monza).
And how would it look in the real world? Each qually and race would result in us sitting round for hours waiting for the stewards to decide if a penalty should be applied, what penalty, and what order. Bit like the engine penalties of old. We would wake up the following day to get the grid or the race result. Brands Hatch have had a track limit system in place for years, and its still only used sparingly.
And if you think that is a bit over the top, MotoGP are way ahead on this compared to F1, colour coded track limits, penalty loops, instant VAR; and sometimes we still we have to wait hours whilst our favourite rider is demoted from pole to the 5th row, and then slowly back again to the front row as each penalty is applied.

Notwithstanding that F1 could make great strides by introducing penalty loops where its possible, colour coding track limits; as they did in the last sector of COTA, and getting broadcasters to inform the viewer before qually and the race.

Yes, tracks evolve, but this does not mean that the cars should be going off the tracks. And arguably the newer tracks should have allowed for the cars of today and tomorrow, but that is a different discussion I feel.

The track limits do not need any weird new technologies, a simple kitty litter or sticky mat trap would deter the drivers from getting outside the track limits. They do not have to take hours to make a decision, why would they? All they would have to do is either put traps like above that would deter the drivers to go outside the track or just change the regulations to something like "the cars should be broadly within the track limits if possible"... Another idea is to have it policed for the quali only, so that they have to have a clean lap at least then; during the race they may be able to race as they do now.


But its not only F1 that uses the tracks. Kitty litters or other barriers just to stop infringements for F1 will just leave a load of other classes; including bikers, novices, track day drivers in debt or in hospital. If it was as simple as you say then a cheapskate like J Palmer would have it installed at his tracks. As someone said at COTA this year when asked what the Indycars did; we ignored track limits and tried to turn it into an oval and no one cared!
Qually only? So we are looking at two different versions of the track per race meet? We do that now. Its decided over the weekend based on activity and incidents during practice, etc. And it tends to be safety driven; which I have no problem with.
As for your change of regulation; as I said before, even those who want to see it enforced can't even agree amongst themselves. You are suggesting 'broadly within the limits', yet further back in this thread someone sees the need to punish Ham who was just outside on one run, whilst another driver should be let off because he ran so wide he must have lost time.
I'm not proposing nothing should be done; but more that there is no simple rule or quick fix and a more structured approach should be adopted.
Personally I like the MotoGP approach, not only are the limits explained, the limits are there for all to see, and during the race invariably you can see the guy taking the appropriate penalty that doesn't completely destroy his race or our enjoyment.


There is no need to let a driver go off track in Quali. We can be a little more lenient in the race.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 3:51 pm 
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Posts: 7913
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:

I agree, but until F1 and most other motorsports change the way the limits are policed and dealt with on an ad hoc basis during each race weekend, the present situation will continue. And given that most within F1 and spectators alike don't seem to have an issue with it I don't see anything changing; despite a few individuals bringing it up on a regular basis. And even those few individuals can't seem to agree on how it should be policed.
And of course its obvious Ham would be bought up as the pole sitter, in the same way it would be obvious to point out that his clean lap would have still left him on pole.
And whilst it maybe your opinion that Ham with one clean lap and one off track lap is still an obvious candidate, others may consider those who transgressed on both their laps as being even more obvious. If for no other reason then they would be severely penalised for failing to set a lap time in Q3.
Seems to me some like to look at an issue such as this and offer a glib 'oh the pole sitter should have lost pole'; yet don't seem to want to discuss the reality of such a draconian approach.


I can't think why is this such an issue really, there is absolutely nothing draconian about it. Policing the track/court/pitch lines is fundamental in most sports, I can't think of any other sport that such abuse would get unpunished; we have introduced sensors in footballs to check if they crossed the goal line, VAR, the hawkeye technology in tennis, etc. Yet in arguably the most expensive and elite sport in the planet the drivers are allowed to abuse a rule and no one bats an eyelid.

It is almost like it is in the FIA's DNA to leave the door open for controversies...


In its simplistic form the track when built isn't designed for the cars and bikes of today or tomorrow. Thats why barriers, corners, kerbs, run off areas, surfaces, etc are constantly changing. And why track limits are discussed and agreed upon each race meeting. Whether its F1 or your local kart or grass track meeting. And it has to be said other motives such as keeping the lap flowing, creating more overtaking opportunities, better viewing experiences, etc. And who knows how these cars are going to react on a track in 9 months time?
Introduce a blanket rule and the speeds at a number of tracks will go down, less overtaking opportunities, and occasionally one of these track limit measures will launch a car into a marshall post (Monza).
And how would it look in the real world? Each qually and race would result in us sitting round for hours waiting for the stewards to decide if a penalty should be applied, what penalty, and what order. Bit like the engine penalties of old. We would wake up the following day to get the grid or the race result. Brands Hatch have had a track limit system in place for years, and its still only used sparingly.
And if you think that is a bit over the top, MotoGP are way ahead on this compared to F1, colour coded track limits, penalty loops, instant VAR; and sometimes we still we have to wait hours whilst our favourite rider is demoted from pole to the 5th row, and then slowly back again to the front row as each penalty is applied.

Notwithstanding that F1 could make great strides by introducing penalty loops where its possible, colour coding track limits; as they did in the last sector of COTA, and getting broadcasters to inform the viewer before qually and the race.

Yes, tracks evolve, but this does not mean that the cars should be going off the tracks. And arguably the newer tracks should have allowed for the cars of today and tomorrow, but that is a different discussion I feel.

The track limits do not need any weird new technologies, a simple kitty litter or sticky mat trap would deter the drivers from getting outside the track limits. They do not have to take hours to make a decision, why would they? All they would have to do is either put traps like above that would deter the drivers to go outside the track or just change the regulations to something like "the cars should be broadly within the track limits if possible"... Another idea is to have it policed for the quali only, so that they have to have a clean lap at least then; during the race they may be able to race as they do now.


But its not only F1 that uses the tracks. Kitty litters or other barriers just to stop infringements for F1 will just leave a load of other classes; including bikers, novices, track day drivers in debt or in hospital. If it was as simple as you say then a cheapskate like J Palmer would have it installed at his tracks. As someone said at COTA this year when asked what the Indycars did; we ignored track limits and tried to turn it into an oval and no one cared!
Qually only? So we are looking at two different versions of the track per race meet? We do that now. Its decided over the weekend based on activity and incidents during practice, etc. And it tends to be safety driven; which I have no problem with.
As for your change of regulation; as I said before, even those who want to see it enforced can't even agree amongst themselves. You are suggesting 'broadly within the limits', yet further back in this thread someone sees the need to punish Ham who was just outside on one run, whilst another driver should be let off because he ran so wide he must have lost time.
I'm not proposing nothing should be done; but more that there is no simple rule or quick fix and a more structured approach should be adopted.
Personally I like the MotoGP approach, not only are the limits explained, the limits are there for all to see, and during the race invariably you can see the guy taking the appropriate penalty that doesn't completely destroy his race or our enjoyment.


Well I would assume that all motorsport should be obeying the track limits, but I'll admit that I am not watching many other forms of motorsport, so I did not know the MotoGP approach, which sounds fair by all accounts. The examples were just that, examples, not the one and only idea. They can probably do much better with the sticky surface, I personally do not like the kitty litters that much, as when someone goes off the track gets very very messy. But they are effective in F1 terms.

When I said to use it for quali only, it would be to prevent the transponders triggering on any racing incidents like when someone is pushed off track by another car or has to take evasive action, as it would be a bit unfair to get another penalty because the transponder clocked that they have left the track. Just an idea that popped to my head and not a solid plan!

I did not see how many times was Hamilton outside the track, but they should all obey the same rules. I am not sure who suggested that only the pole run should be punished, I do not agree with that. But equally I find it a bit awkward that you have a rule that mentions one thing and then you have specific track rules that say another. They should maybe amend the rules to say that the cars should be within the 4 lines except specific areas in some tracks, along these lines. Maybe this will avoid people whining about it!


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 7:54 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Hamilton's first lap was clean and still good enough for pole.


Which is totally irrelevant to drivers not being able to use the prescribed track although it does prove that those of us wanting drivers to use the track properly aren't against Hamilton.

Were was the edit for track limits, I didn't see any so no rules were actually broken, blame the stewards if you want but all the drivers on the day were driving within the rules, I did say in practice that it needed policing but it wasn't.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 8:46 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Hamilton's first lap was clean and still good enough for pole.


Which is totally irrelevant to drivers not being able to use the prescribed track although it does prove that those of us wanting drivers to use the track properly aren't against Hamilton.

Were was the edit for track limits, I didn't see any so no rules were actually broken, blame the stewards if you want but all the drivers on the day were driving within the rules, I did say in practice that it needed policing but it wasn't.


I think trying to stay on track is pretty much a no brainer.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2019 9:31 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Hamilton's first lap was clean and still good enough for pole.


Which is totally irrelevant to drivers not being able to use the prescribed track although it does prove that those of us wanting drivers to use the track properly aren't against Hamilton.

Were was the edit for track limits, I didn't see any so no rules were actually broken, blame the stewards if you want but all the drivers on the day were driving within the rules, I did say in practice that it needed policing but it wasn't.


I think trying to stay on track is pretty much a no brainer.

Not if it's not being policed and drivers are finding time by going off track, doing likewise then becomes a no brainer otherwise you're just being naieve and giving your opponent an advantage.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 8:24 am 
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Posts: 7913
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Hamilton's first lap was clean and still good enough for pole.


Which is totally irrelevant to drivers not being able to use the prescribed track although it does prove that those of us wanting drivers to use the track properly aren't against Hamilton.

Were was the edit for track limits, I didn't see any so no rules were actually broken, blame the stewards if you want but all the drivers on the day were driving within the rules, I did say in practice that it needed policing but it wasn't.


I think trying to stay on track is pretty much a no brainer.

Not if it's not being policed and drivers are finding time by going off track, doing likewise then becomes a no brainer otherwise you're just being naieve and giving your opponent an advantage.

Poker, you were complaining in this very thread about cars going off track deliberately:

pokerman wrote:
The Red Bulls deliberately exceeding track limits, will this be allowed in qualifying?


Now it is somehow ok?


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:00 am 
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Location: UK
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Hamilton's first lap was clean and still good enough for pole.


Which is totally irrelevant to drivers not being able to use the prescribed track although it does prove that those of us wanting drivers to use the track properly aren't against Hamilton.

Were was the edit for track limits, I didn't see any so no rules were actually broken, blame the stewards if you want but all the drivers on the day were driving within the rules, I did say in practice that it needed policing but it wasn't.


I think trying to stay on track is pretty much a no brainer.


I think most agree on this the only provision I would make is that some circuits were either old or poorly designed and with faster speeds the natural racing line takes them of the circuit, if the drivers conform to limits the bend then becomes a chicane. If we want to see steadily increasing speed in F1 some circuits have to be modified.

Imagine taking those abused bends 20mph slower, the long way round is no longer quicker.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:06 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Hamilton's first lap was clean and still good enough for pole.


Which is totally irrelevant to drivers not being able to use the prescribed track although it does prove that those of us wanting drivers to use the track properly aren't against Hamilton.

Were was the edit for track limits, I didn't see any so no rules were actually broken, blame the stewards if you want but all the drivers on the day were driving within the rules, I did say in practice that it needed policing but it wasn't.


I think trying to stay on track is pretty much a no brainer.


I think most agree on this the only provision I would make is that some circuits were either old or poorly designed and with faster speeds the natural racing line takes them of the circuit, if the drivers conform to limits the bend then becomes a chicane. If we want to see steadily increasing speed in F1 some circuits have to be modified.

Imagine taking those abused bends 20mph slower, the long way round is no longer quicker.


I'm afraid I don't understand? Why can't a bend just be taken a bit slower in order to remain on track? The final turn in Abu Dhabi doesn't suddenly become a chicane because you have to stay within the confines of the track.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:10 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Hamilton's first lap was clean and still good enough for pole.


Which is totally irrelevant to drivers not being able to use the prescribed track although it does prove that those of us wanting drivers to use the track properly aren't against Hamilton.

Were was the edit for track limits, I didn't see any so no rules were actually broken, blame the stewards if you want but all the drivers on the day were driving within the rules, I did say in practice that it needed policing but it wasn't.


I think trying to stay on track is pretty much a no brainer.


I think most agree on this the only provision I would make is that some circuits were either old or poorly designed and with faster speeds the natural racing line takes them of the circuit, if the drivers conform to limits the bend then becomes a chicane. If we want to see steadily increasing speed in F1 some circuits have to be modified.

Imagine taking those abused bends 20mph slower, the long way round is no longer quicker.

F1 already gives them leeway on this, they allow two wheels off the track, something that you wouldn't see in tracks with walls around them. And of course, as with everything else in F1, the teams/drivers abuse it. Going completely off track is taking it to another level.

It's like the drivers that get a ticket for going 34mph on a 30 zone and complain that it is petty that they got a ticket for going 1mph over, forgetting that they are already allowed a 10% over the said limit.


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:41 am 
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If you want to make your point without being accused of doing so out of bias, make it as soon as you see drivers going wide considering that majority of drivers were doing it throughout all of quali. Don't wait till the end of the session in silence and then go "Hamilton went out the circuit on his pole lap it should be deleted".

Posting like that you're obviously gonna get called on a bias, so dont be surprised when it happens, because intentional or not you look biased as anything


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 10:00 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
If you want to make your point without being accused of doing so out of bias, make it as soon as you see drivers going wide considering that majority of drivers were doing it throughout all of quali. Don't wait till the end of the session in silence and then go "Hamilton went out the circuit on his pole lap it should be deleted".

Posting like that you're obviously gonna get called on a bias, so dont be surprised when it happens, because intentional or not you look biased as anything

I don't think you can accuse Fiki of bias against Hamilton frankly; only against rule breaking


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 11:40 am 
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FormulaFun wrote:
If you want to make your point without being accused of doing so out of bias, make it as soon as you see drivers going wide considering that majority of drivers were doing it throughout all of quali. Don't wait till the end of the session in silence and then go "Hamilton went out the circuit on his pole lap it should be deleted".

Posting like that you're obviously gonna get called on a bias, so dont be surprised when it happens, because intentional or not you look biased as anything
Did you bother to read the relevant part of the thread?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:36 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Which is totally irrelevant to drivers not being able to use the prescribed track although it does prove that those of us wanting drivers to use the track properly aren't against Hamilton.

Were was the edit for track limits, I didn't see any so no rules were actually broken, blame the stewards if you want but all the drivers on the day were driving within the rules, I did say in practice that it needed policing but it wasn't.


I think trying to stay on track is pretty much a no brainer.

Not if it's not being policed and drivers are finding time by going off track, doing likewise then becomes a no brainer otherwise you're just being naieve and giving your opponent an advantage.

Poker, you were complaining in this very thread about cars going off track deliberately:

pokerman wrote:
The Red Bulls deliberately exceeding track limits, will this be allowed in qualifying?


Now it is somehow ok?

I asked if it would be allowed in qualifying and obviously it was, I don't like the abuse of track limits either but in the absence of it being policed you can't then cherry pick which drivers should be penalised.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Were was the edit for track limits, I didn't see any so no rules were actually broken, blame the stewards if you want but all the drivers on the day were driving within the rules, I did say in practice that it needed policing but it wasn't.


I think trying to stay on track is pretty much a no brainer.

Not if it's not being policed and drivers are finding time by going off track, doing likewise then becomes a no brainer otherwise you're just being naieve and giving your opponent an advantage.

Poker, you were complaining in this very thread about cars going off track deliberately:

pokerman wrote:
The Red Bulls deliberately exceeding track limits, will this be allowed in qualifying?


Now it is somehow ok?

I asked if it would be allowed in qualifying and obviously it was, I don't like the abuse of track limits either but in the absence of it being policed you can't then cherry pick which drivers should be penalised.

I do not think anyone cherry picked drivers. All of the ones that went outside the track limits should get punished in an ideal scenario


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:58 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think trying to stay on track is pretty much a no brainer.

Not if it's not being policed and drivers are finding time by going off track, doing likewise then becomes a no brainer otherwise you're just being naieve and giving your opponent an advantage.

Poker, you were complaining in this very thread about cars going off track deliberately:

pokerman wrote:
The Red Bulls deliberately exceeding track limits, will this be allowed in qualifying?


Now it is somehow ok?

I asked if it would be allowed in qualifying and obviously it was, I don't like the abuse of track limits either but in the absence of it being policed you can't then cherry pick which drivers should be penalised.

I do not think anyone cherry picked drivers. All of the ones that went outside the track limits should get punished in an ideal scenario

No clearly it was said that Hamilton shouldn't have been allowed to keep his pole position with no reference to other drivers or did I misread?

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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