planetf1.com

It is currently Sat Jan 18, 2020 2:45 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic

Ferrari - Would you sign Hamilton
Yes, the potential to maximise points every weekend would outweigh the potential conflict and WDC is priority 42%  42%  [ 24 ]
Yes, better to have him in our car than someone else's 33%  33%  [ 19 ]
No, wouldn't need him. 9%  9%  [ 5 ]
No, just not worth the management 16%  16%  [ 9 ]
Total votes : 57
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:17 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm
Posts: 3668
Siao7 wrote:
I'm not quite sure why you are getting your undergarments twisted here Alien, but I'd dare say that you are reading this wrong. I did not say categorically that Hamilton will be sh*te at age 36+. Nor can anyone say with a 100% certainty that he will be the same driver that he is today. We did not expect a WDC to retire at age 31 either, but it happened.

All I am saying is that it depends on Ferrari's plan. If they want to go for a driver that has another 3 years left at least (as you said) or will they chase someone younger like Verstappen to invest in the future. Neither scenario is far fetched, they kept Kimi until he was 39 or so. Equally they do have a young gun, do why not taking the biggest opposition out of the picture?

Whose undergarments are in a twist? Replying to you doesn't equal disagreeing with you. It's a discussion forum, not an argument arena.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7953
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
I'm not quite sure why you are getting your undergarments twisted here Alien, but I'd dare say that you are reading this wrong. I did not say categorically that Hamilton will be sh*te at age 36+. Nor can anyone say with a 100% certainty that he will be the same driver that he is today. We did not expect a WDC to retire at age 31 either, but it happened.

All I am saying is that it depends on Ferrari's plan. If they want to go for a driver that has another 3 years left at least (as you said) or will they chase someone younger like Verstappen to invest in the future. Neither scenario is far fetched, they kept Kimi until he was 39 or so. Equally they do have a young gun, do why not taking the biggest opposition out of the picture?

Whose undergarments are in a twist? Replying to you doesn't equal disagreeing with you. It's a discussion forum, not an argument arena.


No one said it is. And yes, you were arguing that the age debate is pure nonsense as you put it. Anyway, just for clarity, I voted that they should of course get him, I don't have an issue about his age


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2019 10:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am
Posts: 1268
Fiki wrote:
Dolo, if I were the Ferrari boss, surely we would already have the best car? ;)
On a more serious note, I'm only convinced the WDC is a priority if the WCC is out of reach, as it presently is.

With Leclerc staying, and with him being a Ferrari man, I believe I would put some weight on not importing another star, who might just not care about the potential fall-out of having another rivalry as he had with Rosberg.

Still, I voted yes, for the potential to collect points at every race, forgetting his clash with Albon for a moment. Luckily, his true mistakes a few and far between. (Provided there is no rivalry.)


crap. Typo on my part, was meant to be WCC

_________________
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:14 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:21 am
Posts: 481
I don't think Hamilton will cope well with the Ferrari pressure, specially if the car is not a winner.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2019 12:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33516
Reading the opening post again it seems that Ferrari themselves would answer yes seeing as they've already approached Hamilton.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Posts: 1352
Location: Kansas
I think that Ferrari have more problems than Lewis can solve by just showing up. When Michael Schumacher came to Ferrari from Benneton he brought Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne as his personal design and management team. They already knew how to build a car that would work for Michael. I don't see any significant personnel at Merc that will be following Lewis if he leaves for Ferrari.

I have no doubt that if they can convince Lewis to come over, Ferrari will try to accommodate Lewis and Lewis will do his best to help design a car that works for him.

_________________
Mission WinLater


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 1:52 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33516
Mort Canard wrote:
I think that Ferrari have more problems than Lewis can solve by just showing up. When Michael Schumacher came to Ferrari from Benneton he brought Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne as his personal design and management team. They already knew how to build a car that would work for Michael. I don't see any significant personnel at Merc that will be following Lewis if he leaves for Ferrari.

I have no doubt that if they can convince Lewis to come over, Ferrari will try to accommodate Lewis and Lewis will do his best to help design a car that works for him.

I don't see Ferrari as being as in a big of a mess, they built a WDC capable car in 2017 and 2018 and presently have the best engine in F1 at least in respect to outright power plus the reliability of the engine is good.

They clearly went the wrong way with the 2019 car but given what they produced in 2017 and 2018 that probably is just a blip, so in terms of the car they are not really a million of miles away like when Schumacher joined the team.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 3:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:58 am
Posts: 1352
Location: Kansas
pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
I think that Ferrari have more problems than Lewis can solve by just showing up. When Michael Schumacher came to Ferrari from Benneton he brought Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne as his personal design and management team. They already knew how to build a car that would work for Michael. I don't see any significant personnel at Merc that will be following Lewis if he leaves for Ferrari.

I have no doubt that if they can convince Lewis to come over, Ferrari will try to accommodate Lewis and Lewis will do his best to help design a car that works for him.

I don't see Ferrari as being as in a big of a mess, they built a WDC capable car in 2017 and 2018 and presently have the best engine in F1 at least in respect to outright power plus the reliability of the engine is good.

They clearly went the wrong way with the 2019 car but given what they produced in 2017 and 2018 that probably is just a blip, so in terms of the car they are not really a million of miles away like when Schumacher joined the team.


It's not just the car, although the 2019 car did definitely have some problems. Team dynamics at Ferrari need some work and removing Vettel in favor of Hamilton won't magically solve them, I don't think.

I was actually more of a fan of Maurizio Arrivabene than I am of Mattia Binotto.

_________________
Mission WinLater


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2019 8:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 21, 2010 2:40 am
Posts: 182
Yes, I would sign him. He may be on the back half of his career by then. Hamilton teamed up with Leclerc in a solid car would deliver constructors championships season after season. I don't see a better Duo on the grid that would top this one.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 6:25 pm
Posts: 202
I think Hamilton is a great driver but Ferrari have a superstar driver in Leclerc - with another season under his belt he's only going to be better next year.

Do Ferrari need Hamilton?

Hamilton would need time to acclimatise to the team - and Leclerc doesn't seem like he'd be willing to play second fiddle - he's already pushing Vettel.

_________________
Forza Ferrari


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2688
I think signing Hamilton should be very very very high priority for Ferrari, the guy is a winner and right now they have two very error prone drivers, no doubt leclerc is the future of Ferrari but currently he really needs some mentoring, too many mistakes and vettel isn't quite the driver you want to mould your future prospect in the shape of, whereas Hamilton right now is pretty much the perfect driver and giving leclerc the opportunity to learn from him should not be overlooked. Hamilton would beat leclerc over a season with not much issue right now, I'm not sure many could legitimately debate that based on 2019 (about evens with vettel on pace and many mistakes caused him to lose out to Verstappen too) so would not affect the team dynamic badly, and as leclerc improves, his coming out age will probably coincide nicely with Hamilton retiring.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7557
Location: Michigan, USA
FormulaFun wrote:
I think signing Hamilton should be very very very high priority for Ferrari, the guy is a winner and right now they have two very error prone drivers, no doubt leclerc is the future of Ferrari but currently he really needs some mentoring, too many mistakes and vettel isn't quite the driver you want to mould your future prospect in the shape of, whereas Hamilton right now is pretty much the perfect driver and giving leclerc the opportunity to learn from him should not be overlooked. Hamilton would beat leclerc over a season with not much issue right now, I'm not sure many could legitimately debate that based on 2019 (about evens with vettel on pace and many mistakes caused him to lose out to Verstappen too) so would not affect the team dynamic badly, and as leclerc improves, his coming out age will probably coincide nicely with Hamilton retiring.

An interesting question ala Leclerc and Hamilton as hypothetical teammates: If Leclerc follows the same rough pattern of improvement as Max did against Ricciardo, where along that journey does he probably overtake/equal Hamilton?

Year 1 - Visibly slower (Leclerc already skipped this step, but arguably that's because Vettel isn't as quick as Ricciardo)
Year 2 - Slightly ahead on pace; wins more races, but loses out on mistakes (where Leclerc is now, except he didn't lose out - see above note)
Year 3 - Visibly better in every area (although in the case of Max, mistakes only disappeared around 1/3 season mark)

Despite the age difference, Leclerc now is only as experienced as Max was at the end of 2016, Vettel at the end of 2009, or Lewis himself at the end of 2008. I think everyone would agree that all of those drivers improved significantly from that point, so I think there's a very good chance we'll see a much better version of Leclerc in 2020, especially if he has the backing of the team from the beginning.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2688
I think we're looking at 2022 for leclerc to start coming into his own properly. 2019 he only just about beat vettel who in my opinion has really come apart as a driver for whatever reason. I think 2020 we will see him start to out pace vettel in races more consistently (has the edge in quali but his race pace was.not quite where it needs to be) but will still make mistakes. 2021 he will be comfortably ahead of vettel in all areas and strong in quali but I feel 2022 is where he will start looking really good, challenging for wins consistently where possible ala Hamilton and Alonso... Even Verstappen still makes too many mistakes to be on that level, there are opportunities in 2019 he didn't take due to mistakes and impatience and should have probably also not won in Austria because he was lucky not to get penalised in Austria for his race winning overtake which was clumsy at best


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:43 am 
Online

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16529
FormulaFun wrote:
I think we're looking at 2022 for leclerc to start coming into his own properly. 2019 he only just about beat vettel who in my opinion has really come apart as a driver for whatever reason. I think 2020 we will see him start to out pace vettel in races more consistently (has the edge in quali but his race pace was.not quite where it needs to be) but will still make mistakes. 2021 he will be comfortably ahead of vettel in all areas and strong in quali but I feel 2022 is where he will start looking really good, challenging for wins consistently where possible ala Hamilton and Alonso... Even Verstappen still makes too many mistakes to be on that level, there are opportunities in 2019 he didn't take due to mistakes and impatience and should have probably also not won in Austria because he was lucky not to get penalised in Austria for his race winning overtake which was clumsy at best


Verstappen tries to win every race. You can't fairly compare the number of mistakes he makes to someone like Hamilton at this stage. They are racing with different aims. That being said I'm not sure Verstappen made a lot more mistakes than Hamilton in 2019?

Putting that aside I don't think Leclerc will take as long to peak as Verstappen. He came in to F1 as far more experienced rookie. They've actually both been driving cars for the same amount of time. I'd expect Leclerc to look very good in 2020 provided Ferrari lets him and he gets his mental game right.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2688
mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
I think we're looking at 2022 for leclerc to start coming into his own properly. 2019 he only just about beat vettel who in my opinion has really come apart as a driver for whatever reason. I think 2020 we will see him start to out pace vettel in races more consistently (has the edge in quali but his race pace was.not quite where it needs to be) but will still make mistakes. 2021 he will be comfortably ahead of vettel in all areas and strong in quali but I feel 2022 is where he will start looking really good, challenging for wins consistently where possible ala Hamilton and Alonso... Even Verstappen still makes too many mistakes to be on that level, there are opportunities in 2019 he didn't take due to mistakes and impatience and should have probably also not won in Austria because he was lucky not to get penalised in Austria for his race winning overtake which was clumsy at best


Verstappen tries to win every race. You can't fairly compare the number of mistakes he makes to someone like Hamilton at this stage. They are racing with different aims. That being said I'm not sure Verstappen made a lot more mistakes than Hamilton in 2019?

Putting that aside I don't think Leclerc will take as long to peak as Verstappen. He came in to F1 as far more experienced rookie. They've actually both been driving cars for the same amount of time. I'd expect Leclerc to look very good in 2020 provided Ferrari lets him and he gets his mental game right.


Im not looking to derail the thread with another Verstappen Vs Hamilton comparison thread, I just feel like he threw away a win in Mexico through silliness and was lucky not to have thrown away a win in Austria. He also got caught in 1st corner tangles in Italy and Spa, and cost himself a podium in Monaco, Verstappen has come a very long way but for me has some fine tuning, just as Hamilton in 2010 when he had pace and consistency but ultimately didn't win the championship because of a couple of mistakes. Verstappen is on an upward trend and will improve through the experience of a WDC fight which he hasn't had the chance to have yet. But I am not looking for an argument, just my opinion. I think Verstappen will be at his best yet in 2020 and I hope to see a season where he doesn't cause himself controversy or anything

I also expect leclerc to be very in 2020, I expect his race pace to be a lot stronger which was one of his weak points this year I think, but can't see him erasing all his mistakes in 1 season, as I said it takes time and comes very much with experience, especially because leclerc will at some point have some more crashes with his current racing style which I think is too aggressive.


Last edited by FormulaFun on Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:11 am 
Online

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16529
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
I think we're looking at 2022 for leclerc to start coming into his own properly. 2019 he only just about beat vettel who in my opinion has really come apart as a driver for whatever reason. I think 2020 we will see him start to out pace vettel in races more consistently (has the edge in quali but his race pace was.not quite where it needs to be) but will still make mistakes. 2021 he will be comfortably ahead of vettel in all areas and strong in quali but I feel 2022 is where he will start looking really good, challenging for wins consistently where possible ala Hamilton and Alonso... Even Verstappen still makes too many mistakes to be on that level, there are opportunities in 2019 he didn't take due to mistakes and impatience and should have probably also not won in Austria because he was lucky not to get penalised in Austria for his race winning overtake which was clumsy at best


Verstappen tries to win every race. You can't fairly compare the number of mistakes he makes to someone like Hamilton at this stage. They are racing with different aims. That being said I'm not sure Verstappen made a lot more mistakes than Hamilton in 2019?

Putting that aside I don't think Leclerc will take as long to peak as Verstappen. He came in to F1 as far more experienced rookie. They've actually both been driving cars for the same amount of time. I'd expect Leclerc to look very good in 2020 provided Ferrari lets him and he gets his mental game right.


Im not looking to derail the thread with another Verstappen Vs Hamilton comparison thread, I just feel like he threw away a win in Mexico through silliness and was lucky not to have thrown away a win in Austria. He also got caught in 1st corner tangles in Italy and Spa, and cost himself a podium in Monaco, Verstappen has come a very long way but for me has some fine tuning still to make which can only come through experience but not looking for an argument, just my opinion. I think Verstappen will be at his best in 2020 and I hope to see a season where he doesn't cause himself controversy

I also expect leclerc to be very in 2020, I expect his race pace to be a lot stronger which was one of his weak points this year I think, but can't see him erasing all his mistakes in 1 season, as I said it takes time and comes very much with experience, especially because leclerc will at some point have some more crashes with his current racing style which I think is too aggressive.


I'm not sure Ferrari are really helping Leclerc much in terms of his mentality. I think right now he needs a calming, maybe even placating influence and Ferrari are hardly that. He drives like every corner is life or death.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2688
mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
I think we're looking at 2022 for leclerc to start coming into his own properly. 2019 he only just about beat vettel who in my opinion has really come apart as a driver for whatever reason. I think 2020 we will see him start to out pace vettel in races more consistently (has the edge in quali but his race pace was.not quite where it needs to be) but will still make mistakes. 2021 he will be comfortably ahead of vettel in all areas and strong in quali but I feel 2022 is where he will start looking really good, challenging for wins consistently where possible ala Hamilton and Alonso... Even Verstappen still makes too many mistakes to be on that level, there are opportunities in 2019 he didn't take due to mistakes and impatience and should have probably also not won in Austria because he was lucky not to get penalised in Austria for his race winning overtake which was clumsy at best


Verstappen tries to win every race. You can't fairly compare the number of mistakes he makes to someone like Hamilton at this stage. They are racing with different aims. That being said I'm not sure Verstappen made a lot more mistakes than Hamilton in 2019?

Putting that aside I don't think Leclerc will take as long to peak as Verstappen. He came in to F1 as far more experienced rookie. They've actually both been driving cars for the same amount of time. I'd expect Leclerc to look very good in 2020 provided Ferrari lets him and he gets his mental game right.


Im not looking to derail the thread with another Verstappen Vs Hamilton comparison thread, I just feel like he threw away a win in Mexico through silliness and was lucky not to have thrown away a win in Austria. He also got caught in 1st corner tangles in Italy and Spa, and cost himself a podium in Monaco, Verstappen has come a very long way but for me has some fine tuning still to make which can only come through experience but not looking for an argument, just my opinion. I think Verstappen will be at his best in 2020 and I hope to see a season where he doesn't cause himself controversy

I also expect leclerc to be very in 2020, I expect his race pace to be a lot stronger which was one of his weak points this year I think, but can't see him erasing all his mistakes in 1 season, as I said it takes time and comes very much with experience, especially because leclerc will at some point have some more crashes with his current racing style which I think is too aggressive.


I'm not sure Ferrari are really helping Leclerc much in terms of his mentality. I think right now he needs a calming, maybe even placating influence and Ferrari are hardly that. He drives like every corner is life or death.


Definitely agree, Ferrari is a pressure cooker and actually he performed TOO well in his first season, because he essentially became Ferrari's lead driver in only his 2nd F1 season.

As I mentioned in my original post I feel like he needs a mentor or something of the sort, and I feel Hamilton would give him some great guidance, just as Hamilton learnt a LOT from Alonso.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:21 am 
Online

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16529
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
I think we're looking at 2022 for leclerc to start coming into his own properly. 2019 he only just about beat vettel who in my opinion has really come apart as a driver for whatever reason. I think 2020 we will see him start to out pace vettel in races more consistently (has the edge in quali but his race pace was.not quite where it needs to be) but will still make mistakes. 2021 he will be comfortably ahead of vettel in all areas and strong in quali but I feel 2022 is where he will start looking really good, challenging for wins consistently where possible ala Hamilton and Alonso... Even Verstappen still makes too many mistakes to be on that level, there are opportunities in 2019 he didn't take due to mistakes and impatience and should have probably also not won in Austria because he was lucky not to get penalised in Austria for his race winning overtake which was clumsy at best


Verstappen tries to win every race. You can't fairly compare the number of mistakes he makes to someone like Hamilton at this stage. They are racing with different aims. That being said I'm not sure Verstappen made a lot more mistakes than Hamilton in 2019?

Putting that aside I don't think Leclerc will take as long to peak as Verstappen. He came in to F1 as far more experienced rookie. They've actually both been driving cars for the same amount of time. I'd expect Leclerc to look very good in 2020 provided Ferrari lets him and he gets his mental game right.


Im not looking to derail the thread with another Verstappen Vs Hamilton comparison thread, I just feel like he threw away a win in Mexico through silliness and was lucky not to have thrown away a win in Austria. He also got caught in 1st corner tangles in Italy and Spa, and cost himself a podium in Monaco, Verstappen has come a very long way but for me has some fine tuning still to make which can only come through experience but not looking for an argument, just my opinion. I think Verstappen will be at his best in 2020 and I hope to see a season where he doesn't cause himself controversy

I also expect leclerc to be very in 2020, I expect his race pace to be a lot stronger which was one of his weak points this year I think, but can't see him erasing all his mistakes in 1 season, as I said it takes time and comes very much with experience, especially because leclerc will at some point have some more crashes with his current racing style which I think is too aggressive.


I'm not sure Ferrari are really helping Leclerc much in terms of his mentality. I think right now he needs a calming, maybe even placating influence and Ferrari are hardly that. He drives like every corner is life or death.


Definitely agree, Ferrari is a pressure cooker and actually he performed TOO well in his first season, because he essentially became Ferrari's lead driver in only his 2nd F1 season.

As I mentioned in my original post I feel like he needs a mentor or something of the sort, and I feel Hamilton would give him some great guidance, just as Hamilton learnt a LOT from Alonso.


I don't think F1 drivers in general do enough to work on their mental games. Most other sports now use sports psychologists heavily and there are a lot of examples of that working.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7874
Location: Belgium
Leclerc not only had to play the team game (with Ferrari backing Vettel openly in the beginning of the year, and probably for too long into the season), but on top of that he had to play along with the team perception game. Some of his radio calls this year, in a foreign language let's not forget, made it very clear to everybody that he was wrestling with reconciling the two team games on the one hand, and improving his game through the season.

A mental coach may have helped him personally, but the main difference between him and Verstappen, who really needed one and probably still does, is that Verstappen was never held back in any way by team orders or team perception orders. In that respect he follows in Vettel's footsteps. And isn't it intriguing how both still make far too many mistakes?

I have no doubt that Hamilton would be able to toe the Ferrari line if he needed to, but if 2020 is more or less what I expect it to be at Ferrari, Leclerc is not going to be even his driver 1B, as Barrichello was forced to be.
Also, Scouseknight is spot-on in asking whether Ferrari need Hamilton. The one thing that makes life potentially easier when switching teams would be that in 2021 the cars will be totally different, and Hamilton might find the new Mercedes to be difficult too.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33516
Mort Canard wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
I think that Ferrari have more problems than Lewis can solve by just showing up. When Michael Schumacher came to Ferrari from Benneton he brought Ross Brawn and Rory Byrne as his personal design and management team. They already knew how to build a car that would work for Michael. I don't see any significant personnel at Merc that will be following Lewis if he leaves for Ferrari.

I have no doubt that if they can convince Lewis to come over, Ferrari will try to accommodate Lewis and Lewis will do his best to help design a car that works for him.

I don't see Ferrari as being as in a big of a mess, they built a WDC capable car in 2017 and 2018 and presently have the best engine in F1 at least in respect to outright power plus the reliability of the engine is good.

They clearly went the wrong way with the 2019 car but given what they produced in 2017 and 2018 that probably is just a blip, so in terms of the car they are not really a million of miles away like when Schumacher joined the team.


It's not just the car, although the 2019 car did definitely have some problems. Team dynamics at Ferrari need some work and removing Vettel in favor of Hamilton won't magically solve them, I don't think.

I was actually more of a fan of Maurizio Arrivabene than I am of Mattia Binotto.

I saw someone do an analysis that in 2018 alone Vettel lost something like 100 points due to driver errors, I think it's perhaps for some become to easy to just blame Ferrari.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 3:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33516
Exediron wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
I think signing Hamilton should be very very very high priority for Ferrari, the guy is a winner and right now they have two very error prone drivers, no doubt leclerc is the future of Ferrari but currently he really needs some mentoring, too many mistakes and vettel isn't quite the driver you want to mould your future prospect in the shape of, whereas Hamilton right now is pretty much the perfect driver and giving leclerc the opportunity to learn from him should not be overlooked. Hamilton would beat leclerc over a season with not much issue right now, I'm not sure many could legitimately debate that based on 2019 (about evens with vettel on pace and many mistakes caused him to lose out to Verstappen too) so would not affect the team dynamic badly, and as leclerc improves, his coming out age will probably coincide nicely with Hamilton retiring.

An interesting question ala Leclerc and Hamilton as hypothetical teammates: If Leclerc follows the same rough pattern of improvement as Max did against Ricciardo, where along that journey does he probably overtake/equal Hamilton?

Year 1 - Visibly slower (Leclerc already skipped this step, but arguably that's because Vettel isn't as quick as Ricciardo)
Year 2 - Slightly ahead on pace; wins more races, but loses out on mistakes (where Leclerc is now, except he didn't lose out - see above note)
Year 3 - Visibly better in every area (although in the case of Max, mistakes only disappeared around 1/3 season mark)

Despite the age difference, Leclerc now is only as experienced as Max was at the end of 2016, Vettel at the end of 2009, or Lewis himself at the end of 2008. I think everyone would agree that all of those drivers improved significantly from that point, so I think there's a very good chance we'll see a much better version of Leclerc in 2020, especially if he has the backing of the team from the beginning.

I don't think that you can make direct comparison with Verstappen because he was only in his second season of car racing when he entered F1, whereas Leclerc was fully grounded in the junior series and had won two major titles and entered F1 3 years older than Verstappen, you're not going to see the same step up in performance with Leclerc.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6783
Location: Nebraska, USA
FormulaFun wrote:

Definitely agree, Ferrari is a pressure cooker and actually he performed TOO well in his first season, because he essentially became Ferrari's lead driver in only his 2nd F1 season.

As I mentioned in my original post I feel like he needs a mentor or something of the sort, and I feel Hamilton would give him some great guidance, just as Hamilton learnt a LOT from Alonso.


I am not convinced that Lewis wants to be a "mentor" or that Charles wants to play second fiddle any more. I think that Leclerc would benefit most from stable solid leadership from the team manager and principle, not another driver. I fear a Hamilton/Leclerc pairing could be disastrous for one, perhaps even both?

However, as I said earlier, it is far too early to be making such a decision regarding Hamilton at Ferrari for a number of reasons.

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 16, 2019 11:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2011 3:21 pm
Posts: 2688
Blake wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:

Definitely agree, Ferrari is a pressure cooker and actually he performed TOO well in his first season, because he essentially became Ferrari's lead driver in only his 2nd F1 season.

As I mentioned in my original post I feel like he needs a mentor or something of the sort, and I feel Hamilton would give him some great guidance, just as Hamilton learnt a LOT from Alonso.


I am not convinced that Lewis wants to be a "mentor" or that Charles wants to play second fiddle any more. I think that Leclerc would benefit most from stable solid leadership from the team manager and principle, not another driver. I fear a Hamilton/Leclerc pairing could be disastrous for one, perhaps even both?

However, as I said earlier, it is far too early to be making such a decision regarding Hamilton at Ferrari for a number of reasons.


Yeah it is too soon, I think you need to see 2020 performances to make a decision.

By mentor i don't mean as in actively teach him, however Hamilton commented that he learnt a lot from Alonso, and Rosberg learnt a lot from Schumacher & Hamilton, Leclerc mentioned he learnt a lot from Vettel already so I think he could learn yet more from Hamilton by seeing how he operates and getting a look at his driving style to see how to improve.his race pace.peformances. but agree that management of binotto has not been the best in 2019, probably a little too interventionist at times, too many game plans for my taste


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Posts: 1047
Location: India
I voted for wouldn't need him. Drivers was never Ferrari's problem. If I were Ferrari boss I would probably go for Bottas instead. Charles would have had another year and more experience by then. So I would keep him as his young and go for Bottas. I think Bottas can be good team mate, decent driver and can be used as a wingman as well in second half of the championship :blush: Personally though I would like to see Vettel and Hamilton swap places.

Ferrari main problem is the car. Mercedes is probably the best team in F1. RBR in their transition year with Honda were are able to compete and beat Ferrari. Engine performance is converging so RBR are going to get better. Ferrari can slip to third best team if they do not improve. They have all the sponsor and I think are paid 100million $ for just participating in F1. Resources and money is abundant but they are not efficient and they just can't develop their car than Mercedes, RBR for some reason. In future with budget constraints to engine and car development. Ferrai are in more danger IMO than other top teams

_________________
Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:19 am 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 3508
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I voted for wouldn't need him. Drivers was never Ferrari's problem. If I were Ferrari boss I would probably go for Bottas instead. Charles would have had another year and more experience by then. So I would keep him as his young and go for Bottas. I think Bottas can be good team mate, decent driver and can be used as a wingman as well in second half of the championship :blush: Personally though I would like to see Vettel and Hamilton swap places.

Ferrari main problem is the car. Mercedes is probably the best team in F1. RBR in their transition year with Honda were are able to compete and beat Ferrari. Engine performance is converging so RBR are going to get better. Ferrari can slip to third best team if they do not improve. They have all the sponsor and I think are paid 100million $ for just participating in F1. Resources and money is abundant but they are not efficient and they just can't develop their car than Mercedes, RBR for some reason. In future with budget constraints to engine and car development. Ferrai are in more danger IMO than other top teams


Vettel has deffiantly been a part of the problem, last 3 years his performances have been poor.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2016: 24th place
2017: 4th place
2018: 12th place

Wins: Spain 2016, Canada 2017, Malaysia 2017
Podiums: 2nd Germany 2016, 3rd Mexico 2016, 3rd China 2018, 3rd Japan 2018, 2nd Mexico 2018


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33516
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I voted for wouldn't need him. Drivers was never Ferrari's problem. If I were Ferrari boss I would probably go for Bottas instead. Charles would have had another year and more experience by then. So I would keep him as his young and go for Bottas. I think Bottas can be good team mate, decent driver and can be used as a wingman as well in second half of the championship :blush: Personally though I would like to see Vettel and Hamilton swap places.

Ferrari main problem is the car. Mercedes is probably the best team in F1. RBR in their transition year with Honda were are able to compete and beat Ferrari. Engine performance is converging so RBR are going to get better. Ferrari can slip to third best team if they do not improve. They have all the sponsor and I think are paid 100million $ for just participating in F1. Resources and money is abundant but they are not efficient and they just can't develop their car than Mercedes, RBR for some reason. In future with budget constraints to engine and car development. Ferrai are in more danger IMO than other top teams

Drivers are at least 50% of the problem for Ferrari that's why Kimi got replaced with Leclerc in the first place, no point in having a #1, #2 driver system if the #1 driver can't bring home the title.

In similar cars in both 2017 and 2018 Hamilton was able to beat Vettel quite easily, it was more noticeable in 2018 when Ferrari probably edged it for having the best car.

Last year Red Bull were able to beat Ferrari not because of the car but because of Verstappen, he was better than the Ferrari drivers which I guess leads us to this thread?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:13 pm
Posts: 1420
Hamilton is arguably the quickest driver of his generation. That being said, we should not ignore his history, of questioning the team and becoming toxic when faced with a worthy teammate. The top teams are learning that the best driver combination is one star and one sedate and quiet teammate who is capable of picking up the pieces and supporting the number one driver. Mercedes, Ferrari, and Red Bull all have the same problem, in keeping their thoroughbred star in fine form and happy.

All teams and all drivers (in the form of their managers) are in constant touch, making offers and attempting to decide on the best combination. It is not news that Hamilton has been talking to Ferrari, it would be news if he was not.

Leclerc is Ferrari's future, and Hamilton would just mess everything up.

Age is relevant, although Hamilton has many good years ahead. But there will be huge changes coming in 2021, and one must ask the hard question, will Hamilton be able to adapt to what may be a completely new environment?

When Ferrrari signed Schumacher they were very aware that the entire team was a mess. Schumacher brought his excellent leadership skills, and some of the best in the business with him from Benetton. Hamilton definitely has not assembled any talent around him, in fact it appears he makes more enemies than friends.

_________________
Only dogs, mothers, and quality undergarments give unconditional support.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 5:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6783
Location: Nebraska, USA
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Hamilton is arguably the quickest driver of his generation. That being said, we should not ignore his history, of questioning the team and becoming toxic when faced with a worthy teammate. The top teams are learning that the best driver combination is one star and one sedate and quiet teammate who is capable of picking up the pieces and supporting the number one driver. Mercedes, Ferrari, and Red Bull all have the same problem, in keeping their thoroughbred star in fine form and happy.

All teams and all drivers (in the form of their managers) are in constant touch, making offers and attempting to decide on the best combination. It is not news that Hamilton has been talking to Ferrari, it would be news if he was not.

Leclerc is Ferrari's future, and Hamilton would just mess everything up.

Age is relevant, although Hamilton has many good years ahead. But there will be huge changes coming in 2021, and one must ask the hard question, will Hamilton be able to adapt to what may be a completely new environment?

When Ferrrari signed Schumacher they were very aware that the entire team was a mess. Schumacher brought his excellent leadership skills, and some of the best in the business with him from Benetton. Hamilton definitely has not assembled any talent around him, in fact it appears he makes more enemies than friends.

Blinky, would you like to borrow some protective armour, I fear you may be needing it once the "brigade" sees your post!!!
;)

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33516
Blake wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Hamilton is arguably the quickest driver of his generation. That being said, we should not ignore his history, of questioning the team and becoming toxic when faced with a worthy teammate. The top teams are learning that the best driver combination is one star and one sedate and quiet teammate who is capable of picking up the pieces and supporting the number one driver. Mercedes, Ferrari, and Red Bull all have the same problem, in keeping their thoroughbred star in fine form and happy.

All teams and all drivers (in the form of their managers) are in constant touch, making offers and attempting to decide on the best combination. It is not news that Hamilton has been talking to Ferrari, it would be news if he was not.

Leclerc is Ferrari's future, and Hamilton would just mess everything up.

Age is relevant, although Hamilton has many good years ahead. But there will be huge changes coming in 2021, and one must ask the hard question, will Hamilton be able to adapt to what may be a completely new environment?

When Ferrrari signed Schumacher they were very aware that the entire team was a mess. Schumacher brought his excellent leadership skills, and some of the best in the business with him from Benetton. Hamilton definitely has not assembled any talent around him, in fact it appears he makes more enemies than friends.

Blinky, would you like to borrow some protective armour, I fear you may be needing it once the "brigade" sees your post!!!
;)

It's nothing new and worse has been posted in the past from said poster, so Hamilton fans are now labelled as the brigade, that's something new and interesting.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 6:50 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:52 am
Posts: 2965
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Hamilton is arguably the quickest driver of his generation. That being said, we should not ignore his history, of questioning the team and becoming toxic when faced with a worthy teammate. The top teams are learning that the best driver combination is one star and one sedate and quiet teammate who is capable of picking up the pieces and supporting the number one driver. Mercedes, Ferrari, and Red Bull all have the same problem, in keeping their thoroughbred star in fine form and happy.

All teams and all drivers (in the form of their managers) are in constant touch, making offers and attempting to decide on the best combination. It is not news that Hamilton has been talking to Ferrari, it would be news if he was not.

Leclerc is Ferrari's future, and Hamilton would just mess everything up.

Age is relevant, although Hamilton has many good years ahead. But there will be huge changes coming in 2021, and one must ask the hard question, will Hamilton be able to adapt to what may be a completely new environment?

When Ferrrari signed Schumacher they were very aware that the entire team was a mess. Schumacher brought his excellent leadership skills, and some of the best in the business with him from Benetton. Hamilton definitely has not assembled any talent around him, in fact it appears he makes more enemies than friends.

Blinky, would you like to borrow some protective armour, I fear you may be needing it once the "brigade" sees your post!!!
;)

It's nothing new and worse has been posted in the past from said poster, so Hamilton fans are now labelled as the brigade, that's something new and interesting.

Less 'new' and 'interesting' methinks; more 'tongue' and 'cheek.'

_________________
Where I'm going, I don't need roads


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm
Posts: 4402
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Hamilton is arguably the quickest driver of his generation. That being said, we should not ignore his history, of questioning the team and becoming toxic when faced with a worthy teammate. The top teams are learning that the best driver combination is one star and one sedate and quiet teammate who is capable of picking up the pieces and supporting the number one driver. Mercedes, Ferrari, and Red Bull all have the same problem, in keeping their thoroughbred star in fine form and happy.

All teams and all drivers (in the form of their managers) are in constant touch, making offers and attempting to decide on the best combination. It is not news that Hamilton has been talking to Ferrari, it would be news if he was not.

Leclerc is Ferrari's future, and Hamilton would just mess everything up.

Age is relevant, although Hamilton has many good years ahead. But there will be huge changes coming in 2021, and one must ask the hard question, will Hamilton be able to adapt to what may be a completely new environment?

When Ferrrari signed Schumacher they were very aware that the entire team was a mess. Schumacher brought his excellent leadership skills, and some of the best in the business with him from Benetton. Hamilton definitely has not assembled any talent around him, in fact it appears he makes more enemies than friends.

Blinky, would you like to borrow some protective armour, I fear you may be needing it once the "brigade" sees your post!!!
;)

It's nothing new and worse has been posted in the past from said poster, so Hamilton fans are now labelled as the brigade, that's something new and interesting.


In informal language, which I believe was the idea here, brigade is simply used to define a group of people with a common purpose, characteristic or way of thinking. Nothing to worry about!

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 7:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2016 12:13 pm
Posts: 1420
Blake wrote:
Blinky, would you like to borrow some protective armour, I fear you may be needing it once the "brigade" sees your post!!!
;)


Hello Blake, nice to see you. I wish you and your loved ones a happy and prosperous holiday season.

I am prepared, I am wearing my Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles jockstrap.

_________________
Only dogs, mothers, and quality undergarments give unconditional support.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 4:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:02 am
Posts: 1047
Location: India
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I voted for wouldn't need him. Drivers was never Ferrari's problem. If I were Ferrari boss I would probably go for Bottas instead. Charles would have had another year and more experience by then. So I would keep him as his young and go for Bottas. I think Bottas can be good team mate, decent driver and can be used as a wingman as well in second half of the championship :blush: Personally though I would like to see Vettel and Hamilton swap places.

Ferrari main problem is the car. Mercedes is probably the best team in F1. RBR in their transition year with Honda were are able to compete and beat Ferrari. Engine performance is converging so RBR are going to get better. Ferrari can slip to third best team if they do not improve. They have all the sponsor and I think are paid 100million $ for just participating in F1. Resources and money is abundant but they are not efficient and they just can't develop their car than Mercedes, RBR for some reason. In future with budget constraints to engine and car development. Ferrai are in more danger IMO than other top teams


Drivers are at least 50% of the problem for Ferrari that's why Kimi got replaced with Leclerc in the first place, no point in having a #1, #2 driver system if the #1 driver can't bring home the title.

In similar cars in both 2017 and 2018 Hamilton was able to beat Vettel quite easily, it was more noticeable in 2018 when Ferrari probably edged it for having the best car.

Last year Red Bull were able to beat Ferrari not because of the car but because of Verstappen, he was better than the Ferrari drivers which I guess leads us to this thread?


Ferrari never had the best car IMO :? They had good car for some races but mostly they ended up having the third best car. IMO Mercedes always had clear advantage and are good in developing the car as well. Depending on the track, Ferrari and RBR can win races. Personally I would love to see Hamilton in Ferrari and away from his comfort zone. But if I were in Ferrari shoes I am not sure what value Hamilton can add as I think Charles is as good as anyone. With Vettel Ferrari is not able to manage then with Hamilton it is not going to work either.

F1_Ernie wrote:

Vettel has deffiantly been a part of the problem, last 3 years his performances have been poor.


:uhoh: Vettel has made some mistakes and scored less points than he would have liked but I am sure most drivers think the same.

_________________
Sir Stirling Moss "Quite frankly, Kimi Raikkonen is the fastest driver in the world"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:06 am 
Online

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16529
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I voted for wouldn't need him. Drivers was never Ferrari's problem. If I were Ferrari boss I would probably go for Bottas instead. Charles would have had another year and more experience by then. So I would keep him as his young and go for Bottas. I think Bottas can be good team mate, decent driver and can be used as a wingman as well in second half of the championship :blush: Personally though I would like to see Vettel and Hamilton swap places.

Ferrari main problem is the car. Mercedes is probably the best team in F1. RBR in their transition year with Honda were are able to compete and beat Ferrari. Engine performance is converging so RBR are going to get better. Ferrari can slip to third best team if they do not improve. They have all the sponsor and I think are paid 100million $ for just participating in F1. Resources and money is abundant but they are not efficient and they just can't develop their car than Mercedes, RBR for some reason. In future with budget constraints to engine and car development. Ferrai are in more danger IMO than other top teams


Drivers are at least 50% of the problem for Ferrari that's why Kimi got replaced with Leclerc in the first place, no point in having a #1, #2 driver system if the #1 driver can't bring home the title.

In similar cars in both 2017 and 2018 Hamilton was able to beat Vettel quite easily, it was more noticeable in 2018 when Ferrari probably edged it for having the best car.

Last year Red Bull were able to beat Ferrari not because of the car but because of Verstappen, he was better than the Ferrari drivers which I guess leads us to this thread?


Ferrari never had the best car IMO :? They had good car for some races but mostly they ended up having the third best car. IMO Mercedes always had clear advantage and are good in developing the car as well. Depending on the track, Ferrari and RBR can win races. Personally I would love to see Hamilton in Ferrari and away from his comfort zone. But if I were in Ferrari shoes I am not sure what value Hamilton can add as I think Charles is as good as anyone. With Vettel Ferrari is not able to manage then with Hamilton it is not going to work either.

F1_Ernie wrote:

Vettel has deffiantly been a part of the problem, last 3 years his performances have been poor.


:uhoh: Vettel has made some mistakes and scored less points than he would have liked but I am sure most drivers think the same.


Hamilton has made far fewer mistakes than Vettel. I strongly believe that if Hamilton and Vettel had been swapped the past 3 seasons Hamilton would have won at least one of those WDC's in a Ferrari.

So yes Vettel's mistakes have been part of the problem.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 9:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 2320
Fiki wrote:
Leclerc not only had to play the team game (with Ferrari backing Vettel openly in the beginning of the year, and probably for too long into the season), but on top of that he had to play along with the team perception game. Some of his radio calls this year, in a foreign language let's not forget, made it very clear to everybody that he was wrestling with reconciling the two team games on the one hand, and improving his game through the season.

A mental coach may have helped him personally, but the main difference between him and Verstappen, who really needed one and probably still does, is that Verstappen was never held back in any way by team orders or team perception orders. In that respect he follows in Vettel's footsteps. And isn't it intriguing how both still make far too many mistakes?



This is actually an interesting point. I thought it was impressive how Leclerc, only being in his second F1 season and his first in a top team, handled the team orders from Ferrari, particularly compared to Vettel, an experienced 4x wdc. It did not seem to have considerably influenced his performance.
Can anyone imagine the meltdowns in and off the car that Verstappen would have produced if he had to face such adversaries? Verstappen was the chosen one within the team from day one. Leclerc did not enjoy that luxury so far at all.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 1:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33516
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Mercedes-Benz wrote:
I voted for wouldn't need him. Drivers was never Ferrari's problem. If I were Ferrari boss I would probably go for Bottas instead. Charles would have had another year and more experience by then. So I would keep him as his young and go for Bottas. I think Bottas can be good team mate, decent driver and can be used as a wingman as well in second half of the championship :blush: Personally though I would like to see Vettel and Hamilton swap places.

Ferrari main problem is the car. Mercedes is probably the best team in F1. RBR in their transition year with Honda were are able to compete and beat Ferrari. Engine performance is converging so RBR are going to get better. Ferrari can slip to third best team if they do not improve. They have all the sponsor and I think are paid 100million $ for just participating in F1. Resources and money is abundant but they are not efficient and they just can't develop their car than Mercedes, RBR for some reason. In future with budget constraints to engine and car development. Ferrai are in more danger IMO than other top teams


Drivers are at least 50% of the problem for Ferrari that's why Kimi got replaced with Leclerc in the first place, no point in having a #1, #2 driver system if the #1 driver can't bring home the title.

In similar cars in both 2017 and 2018 Hamilton was able to beat Vettel quite easily, it was more noticeable in 2018 when Ferrari probably edged it for having the best car.

Last year Red Bull were able to beat Ferrari not because of the car but because of Verstappen, he was better than the Ferrari drivers which I guess leads us to this thread?


Ferrari never had the best car IMO :? They had good car for some races but mostly they ended up having the third best car. IMO Mercedes always had clear advantage and are good in developing the car as well. Depending on the track, Ferrari and RBR can win races. Personally I would love to see Hamilton in Ferrari and away from his comfort zone. But if I were in Ferrari shoes I am not sure what value Hamilton can add as I think Charles is as good as anyone. With Vettel Ferrari is not able to manage then with Hamilton it is not going to work either.

F1_Ernie wrote:

Vettel has deffiantly been a part of the problem, last 3 years his performances have been poor.


:uhoh: Vettel has made some mistakes and scored less points than he would have liked but I am sure most drivers think the same.

I'm not sure you fully replied to my post that encompassed these last 3 years, saying that Ferrari only had the 3rd best car I'm guessing only refers to 2019?

In any case I would refute that, apart from far more pole positions they won the same amount of races than Red Bull but also I would say left wins on the table at Bahrain, Canada, Sochi and Austria. Basically Verstappen did to the Ferrari drivers what Hamilton has been doing to Vettel these past few years.

In respect to Vettel making no more mistakes than other drivers, I believe last year alone he was judged to have lost around 100 points due to driver errors.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 2:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:52 am
Posts: 2965
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Blake wrote:
Blinky, would you like to borrow some protective armour, I fear you may be needing it once the "brigade" sees your post!!!
;)


Hello Blake, nice to see you. I wish you and your loved ones a happy and prosperous holiday season.

I am prepared, I am wearing my Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles jockstrap.

That's an uncomfortable image I'm going to struggle to shake off over the remainder of this decade...

_________________
Where I'm going, I don't need roads


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 7:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:21 am
Posts: 3959
I'll add that jockstrap to the list of banned photos. And no you can't post yourself without it!

Back on topic please, and kindly refrain from assuming any one group of fans is likely to behave badly. That's just asking for them to do exactly that.

_________________
Forum rules: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14979

Please report forum problems to us, via PM/Feedback Thread. Screenshots will also help.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2019 10:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:14 am
Posts: 1437
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Hamilton is arguably the quickest driver of his generation. That being said, we should not ignore his history, of questioning the team and becoming toxic when faced with a worthy teammate. The top teams are learning that the best driver combination is one star and one sedate and quiet teammate who is capable of picking up the pieces and supporting the number one driver. Mercedes, Ferrari, and Red Bull all have the same problem, in keeping their thoroughbred star in fine form and happy.

All teams and all drivers (in the form of their managers) are in constant touch, making offers and attempting to decide on the best combination. It is not news that Hamilton has been talking to Ferrari, it would be news if he was not.

Leclerc is Ferrari's future, and Hamilton would just mess everything up.

Age is relevant, although Hamilton has many good years ahead. But there will be huge changes coming in 2021, and one must ask the hard question, will Hamilton be able to adapt to what may be a completely new environment?

When Ferrrari signed Schumacher they were very aware that the entire team was a mess. Schumacher brought his excellent leadership skills, and some of the best in the business with him from Benetton. Hamilton definitely has not assembled any talent around him, in fact it appears he makes more enemies than friends.


Is there anything to suggest Hamilton won’t be able to adapt in 2021? He’s adapted to three regulation changes as well as anyone (2009, 2014, 2017) and adapted to Mercedes pretty well.

I’d disagree that Hamilton makes more enemies than friends as well but probably best we don’t go down that road.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jan 02, 2020 10:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am
Posts: 1268
Blinky McSquinty wrote:

Hamilton is arguably the quickest driver of his generation. That being said, we should not ignore his history, of questioning the team and becoming toxic when faced with a worthy teammate. The top teams are learning that the best driver combination is one star and one sedate and quiet teammate who is capable of picking up the pieces and supporting the number one driver. Mercedes, Ferrari, and Red Bull all have the same problem, in keeping their thoroughbred star in fine form and happy.

All teams and all drivers (in the form of their managers) are in constant touch, making offers and attempting to decide on the best combination. It is not news that Hamilton has been talking to Ferrari, it would be news if he was not.

Leclerc is Ferrari's future, and Hamilton would just mess everything up.

Age is relevant, although Hamilton has many good years ahead. But there will be huge changes coming in 2021, and one must ask the hard question, will Hamilton be able to adapt to what may be a completely new environment?

When Ferrrari signed Schumacher they were very aware that the entire team was a mess. Schumacher brought his excellent leadership skills, and some of the best in the business with him from Benetton. Hamilton definitely has not assembled any talent around him, in fact it appears he makes more enemies than friends.


I don't agree with this. Hamilton/Alonso was a problematic line up, but that was 90% Alonso from everything I've read.
Hamilton/Button was rarely if ever a problem and Hamilton/Rosberg was difficult but I've read nothing that puts the blame in either drivers court.

I also haven't bought into the Schu's Leadership skils suggestion. He had confidence/arrogance in buckets and everyone that came with him bought into that because they knew that if they did that, and supported him, Schu would do the job on track every time. But when Schu produced more controversy than Hamilton ever has - I won't list the incidents, we all know them. After a decade in the sport I don't see a list of enemies Hamilton has made.

I'm not saying Hamilton/Leclerc would be plain-sailing, it wouldn't, but I don't see anything from Hamiltons history to suggest he would turn things toxic.

_________________
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mikeyg123 and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group