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The best 10 F1 drivers ever
Alonso 7%  7%  [ 22 ]
Ascari 4%  4%  [ 15 ]
Brabham, J 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
Clark 11%  11%  [ 38 ]
Fangio 9%  9%  [ 30 ]
Fittipaldi 1%  1%  [ 4 ]
Hakkinen 1%  1%  [ 4 ]
Hamilton 10%  10%  [ 34 ]
Hill, D 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Hill, G 2%  2%  [ 6 ]
Lauda 7%  7%  [ 24 ]
Mansell 1%  1%  [ 5 ]
Moss 5%  5%  [ 17 ]
Piquet 1%  1%  [ 3 ]
Prost 9%  9%  [ 31 ]
Rosberg, N 0%  0%  [ 1 ]
Schumacher 11%  11%  [ 37 ]
Senna 10%  10%  [ 35 ]
Stewart 7%  7%  [ 24 ]
Vettel 1%  1%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 338
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:27 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Greenman wrote:
.

I do not understand people voting for Schumacher, not because he wasn't a very, very good driver, but because of his very questionable tactics at times.

Likewise, of the minimum of 42 voters (248/6) so many (at least 12) didn't vote for ANY of Clark, Hamilton, Senna, or Fangio.

.


Wait, Senna did the same (or worse) questionable things as Schumacher, so you are wondering why people didn't vote for him but question why people voted for Schumacher? Doesn't add up frankly.

Well we can argue that Prost did similar to Senna the year before, when you crash someone out at a really slow speed it's never going to look as bad though.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:46 pm 
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Neither Senna nor Schumacher get my vote... The least I can say is that I didn't revised my judgement since I'm part of the PF1 forum.

That said, where is Surtees ?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:23 pm 
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I think it's great Clark is topping the poll. I'm not old enough to have seen him (or many of the others to be fair) race, but his record is astonishing when you view it in context. He pretty much broke down or won, whatever and wherever he raced. Makes you wonder what his statistical legacy might have looked like had he not been killed. And you''ll not hear a bad word about him.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:32 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
I think it's great Clark is topping the poll. I'm not old enough to have seen him (or many of the others to be fair) race, but his record is astonishing when you view it in context. He pretty much broke down or won, whatever and wherever he raced. Makes you wonder what his statistical legacy might have looked like had he not been killed. And you''ll not hear a bad word about him.


Jabouille too... But he's not part of the list. One of the best in my opinion, though.

And Surtees...

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:46 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
For reasons I've stated countless times here, that answer will forever be… Michael Schumacher.
He could have been, had he trusted his own talents enough and stopped driving into people. Since he didn't, he can't.

One does not exclude the other; the fact that he drove into JV doesn't take away that his talent was immense. I can understand if you don't see him as the best from an ethics point of view, but you can't deny the talent/speed/racecraft.
Which is why I voted for him; his talent was immense.
I also voted for Senna, but like Schumacher, he loses points in sportsmanship/etiquette.

There are a number of drivers I wish I had seen in action, Clark and Fangio being top of the list.

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Last edited by Fiki on Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:46 pm 
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Greenman wrote:
Likewise, of the minimum of 42 voters (248/6) so many (at least 12) didn't vote for ANY of Clark, Hamilton, Senna, or Fangio.

Why divided by 6? You get ten votes each. The minimum number of voters is currently 27 (273/10), which is less than the number of votes received by any of the drivers you mentioned.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:49 pm 
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Jabouille is a funny one that shows just how unpredictable the sport was from the mid 70s into the early 80s. He scored points on only three occasions in his entire career across three different seasons. Two of those occasions were wins :lol:


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:08 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Greenman wrote:
Likewise, of the minimum of 42 voters (248/6) so many (at least 12) didn't vote for ANY of Clark, Hamilton, Senna, or Fangio.

Why divided by 6? You get ten votes each. The minimum number of voters is currently 27 (273/10), which is less than the number of votes received by any of the drivers you mentioned.


No, no... I selected only 7 drivers (and some I would have chosen were not in the list - Yes, where is Surtees ?)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 7:54 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Greenman wrote:
Likewise, of the minimum of 42 voters (248/6) so many (at least 12) didn't vote for ANY of Clark, Hamilton, Senna, or Fangio.

Why divided by 6? You get ten votes each. The minimum number of voters is currently 27 (273/10), which is less than the number of votes received by any of the drivers you mentioned.



You're overthinking it. The minimum number of voters is currently 32. Clark has 32 votes, and you can't vote twice.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:17 pm 
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Is Nico Rosberg on there as a joke?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 8:17 pm 
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Herb wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Greenman wrote:
Likewise, of the minimum of 42 voters (248/6) so many (at least 12) didn't vote for ANY of Clark, Hamilton, Senna, or Fangio.

Why divided by 6? You get ten votes each. The minimum number of voters is currently 27 (273/10), which is less than the number of votes received by any of the drivers you mentioned.

You're overthinking it. The minimum number of voters is currently 32. Clark has 32 votes, and you can't vote twice.

That's a fair point, but I was wondering why Greenman put /6 in the formula since there's no significance to the number 6 in this particular vote.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 06, 2020 10:05 pm 
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Fiki wrote:

One of the items brought up in the discussion fascinates me. What is it that pushes a driver on to want more than one title? I remember Kimi Räikkönen saying that he had achieved what he wanted to achieve on winning his first title. That satisfaction might be seen to be (or actually be) a serious disadvantage in the following phase of a driver's career - from the point of view of those only interested in multiple titles. I believe that team preferance often disadvantages the other driver's performance - Barrichello being a prime example. It does tarnish a driver's record if he never measured himself alongside another champion.


Just compare Nico Rosberg and Hamilton. Rosberg knew he wasn't the best and 1 title, which at least put him in the top league, was all he could push himself to achieve. Hamilton believes he is the best and so, whilst he knows his talent remains undimmed, his drive to win is unquenchable - like Schumacher/Senna and the other serial champions. The difference is in the hunger for and ruthlessness in pursuit of success. Rosberg got married and has a family now. Hamilton, like Senna, didn't and doesn't. ..


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:50 am 
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tim3003 wrote:
Fiki wrote:

One of the items brought up in the discussion fascinates me. What is it that pushes a driver on to want more than one title? I remember Kimi Räikkönen saying that he had achieved what he wanted to achieve on winning his first title. That satisfaction might be seen to be (or actually be) a serious disadvantage in the following phase of a driver's career - from the point of view of those only interested in multiple titles. I believe that team preferance often disadvantages the other driver's performance - Barrichello being a prime example. It does tarnish a driver's record if he never measured himself alongside another champion.


Just compare Nico Rosberg and Hamilton. Rosberg knew he wasn't the best and 1 title, which at least put him in the top league, was all he could push himself to achieve. Hamilton believes he is the best and so, whilst he knows his talent remains undimmed, his drive to win is unquenchable - like Schumacher/Senna and the other serial champions. The difference is in the hunger for and ruthlessness in pursuit of success. Rosberg got married and has a family now. Hamilton, like Senna, didn't and doesn't. ..


yep. There's a difference between quitting while you're ahead and quitting when you have achieved all you want!

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:57 am 
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Harpo wrote:
Neither Senna nor Schumacher get my vote... The least I can say is that I didn't revised my judgement since I'm part of the PF1 forum.

That said, where is Surtees ?


Good shout, but I'm not sure he'll be in many people's top 10 ever


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:21 am 
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tim3003 wrote:
Fiki wrote:

One of the items brought up in the discussion fascinates me. What is it that pushes a driver on to want more than one title? I remember Kimi Räikkönen saying that he had achieved what he wanted to achieve on winning his first title. That satisfaction might be seen to be (or actually be) a serious disadvantage in the following phase of a driver's career - from the point of view of those only interested in multiple titles. I believe that team preferance often disadvantages the other driver's performance - Barrichello being a prime example. It does tarnish a driver's record if he never measured himself alongside another champion.


Just compare Nico Rosberg and Hamilton. Rosberg knew he wasn't the best and 1 title, which at least put him in the top league, was all he could push himself to achieve. Hamilton believes he is the best and so, whilst he knows his talent remains undimmed, his drive to win is unquenchable - like Schumacher/Senna and the other serial champions. The difference is in the hunger for and ruthlessness in pursuit of success. Rosberg got married and has a family now. Hamilton, like Senna, didn't and doesn't. ..
That's not necessarily true; he pushed himself to perform all through his career. But the opportunity window is much narrower for those with a bit less talent. Imagine Hamilton not signing for Mercedes, and Rosberg could possibly have as many titles as Lauda.

In a way, those with the greater talent, like Hamilton and Alonso, 'deserve' a bit less admiration than those who have to dig deeper to achieve the same performance. Yet that won't prevent us from acknowledging the talent of the 'best'. But what causes one driver to keep seeking more and more titles, why another might simply be content that he won 'his' title? Perhaps I should put that question to a sports psychologist, but such a person normally doesn't have first-hand experience.

Returning to Niki Lauda for a moment; was he the best because he achieved what he did despite having to buy himself into F1, or was it Schumacher who was given means and opportunity unavailable to any other driver on the grid?

I like Harpo's mention of Jabouille; my late brother's favourite.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:55 am 
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Re: karting

I said originally 6kg was 0.6-0.7 per lap which is a little inaccurate (I was going from memory).

It was actually 8kg and on average 0.6 over a 1min 15 second lap.

So that is 0.480 per minute of lap, which is about 0.060 per kg / minute lap.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:52 am 
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Fiki wrote:
But what causes one driver to keep seeking more and more titles, why another might simply be content that he won 'his' title? Perhaps I should put that question to a sports psychologist, but such a person normally doesn't have first-hand experience.


You could ask that question about any career choice. Those who get to the top and/or become greats are born with both the talent and a personality that pushes them to dedicate their lives to it. Maybe it's a form of egotism - wanting to beat everyone else to prove oneself. I'm sure that when young Rosberg would have been just as determined and certain of his talent as Hamilton. It was only when in F1 alongside Lewis he realised he wasn't as good as he thought, and that would have taken the edge off his ambition and focus. For Hamilton that realisation hasn't come yet. It probably will in the next few years and then he'll retire. That is, if he isn't sated by eclipsing Schumacher's records first. 8 titles might leave him with nothing more to prove..


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:15 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Re: karting

I said originally 6kg was 0.6-0.7 per lap which is a little inaccurate (I was going from memory).

It was actually 8kg and on average 0.6 over a 1min 15 second lap.

So that is 0.480 per minute of lap, which is about 0.060 per kg / minute lap.

Whereas I had 0.085s over a 51 second lap for 2Kgs which rounds up to 0.1s for a 60 second lap, so 0.05s/Kg so very similar.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:18 pm 
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tim3003 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
But what causes one driver to keep seeking more and more titles, why another might simply be content that he won 'his' title? Perhaps I should put that question to a sports psychologist, but such a person normally doesn't have first-hand experience.


You could ask that question about any career choice. Those who get to the top and/or become greats are born with both the talent and a personality that pushes them to dedicate their lives to it. Maybe it's a form of egotism - wanting to beat everyone else to prove oneself. I'm sure that when young Rosberg would have been just as determined and certain of his talent as Hamilton. It was only when in F1 alongside Lewis he realised he wasn't as good as he thought, and that would have taken the edge off his ambition and focus. For Hamilton that realisation hasn't come yet. It probably will in the next few years and then he'll retire. That is, if he isn't sated by eclipsing Schumacher's records first. 8 titles might leave him with nothing more to prove..

Would that same realisation come for Hamilton or would it be merely Father time?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 8:45 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Neither Senna nor Schumacher get my vote... The least I can say is that I didn't revised my judgement since I'm part of the PF1 forum.

That said, where is Surtees ?


Good shout, but I'm not sure he'll be in many people's top 10 ever


He's in mine, and couldn't vote for him...

I usually don't add my pinch of salt to this sort of cookery, cause my views on "best" or "great" are in an very short minority... I don't care that much about "official achievements" (and that's a general point of view, for every human activity). When these achievements are that much depending on the equipment you can get and carreer opportunities, and "best equipment" (and therefore best opportunities) are that limited (currently 1,5 team, and except for exceptionnal years, it was not much more before), I tend to not care at all about them. Had March not stood in the way of Jarier moving to Ferrari (as it was said at the time), he would be in the list, instead of Lauda. He is not, but does that make him a worse driver than he was, or Lauda a better one than he actually was ?
The other thing that put me in a short minority (where I know Fiki stands...), is that I care a lot about sportmanship (and human qualities in general, but that's another matter). So whatever I think of the respective driving abilities, and other qualities, of the drivers, Schumacher and Senna will never be part of neither my Best nor my Greatest own lists. I understand why it may seem unfair to most of people, but I won't change my view.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:37 am 
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Harpo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Neither Senna nor Schumacher get my vote... The least I can say is that I didn't revised my judgement since I'm part of the PF1 forum.

That said, where is Surtees ?


Good shout, but I'm not sure he'll be in many people's top 10 ever


He's in mine, and couldn't vote for him...

I usually don't add my pinch of salt to this sort of cookery, cause my views on "best" or "great" are in an very short minority... I don't care that much about "official achievements" (and that's a general point of view, for every human activity). When these achievements are that much depending on the equipment you can get and carreer opportunities, and "best equipment" (and therefore best opportunities) are that limited (currently 1,5 team, and except for exceptionnal years, it was not much more before), I tend to not care at all about them. Had March not stood in the way of Jarier moving to Ferrari (as it was said at the time), he would be in the list, instead of Lauda. He is not, but does that make him a worse driver than he was, or Lauda a better one than he actually was ?
The other thing that put me in a short minority (where I know Fiki stands...), is that I care a lot about sportmanship (and human qualities in general, but that's another matter). So whatever I think of the respective driving abilities, and other qualities, of the drivers, Schumacher and Senna will never be part of neither my Best nor my Greatest own lists. I understand why it may seem unfair to most of people, but I won't change my view.

That's all fine, no one pushed you to vote in any way you don't agree, we all respect each other's votes (unless it is for someone we don't like :-P).

As for the bold part, unfortunately this is a sport that works like that, it is not a spec series. We all know that, so in a sport full of if's and but's, we are just trying to compare them as best as we can.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:57 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Neither Senna nor Schumacher get my vote... The least I can say is that I didn't revised my judgement since I'm part of the PF1 forum.

That said, where is Surtees ?


Good shout, but I'm not sure he'll be in many people's top 10 ever


He's in mine, and couldn't vote for him...

I usually don't add my pinch of salt to this sort of cookery, cause my views on "best" or "great" are in an very short minority... I don't care that much about "official achievements" (and that's a general point of view, for every human activity). When these achievements are that much depending on the equipment you can get and carreer opportunities, and "best equipment" (and therefore best opportunities) are that limited (currently 1,5 team, and except for exceptionnal years, it was not much more before), I tend to not care at all about them. Had March not stood in the way of Jarier moving to Ferrari (as it was said at the time), he would be in the list, instead of Lauda. He is not, but does that make him a worse driver than he was, or Lauda a better one than he actually was ?
The other thing that put me in a short minority (where I know Fiki stands...), is that I care a lot about sportmanship (and human qualities in general, but that's another matter). So whatever I think of the respective driving abilities, and other qualities, of the drivers, Schumacher and Senna will never be part of neither my Best nor my Greatest own lists. I understand why it may seem unfair to most of people, but I won't change my view.

That's all fine, no one pushed you to vote in any way you don't agree, we all respect each other's votes (unless it is for someone we don't like :-P).

As for the bold part, unfortunately this is a sport that works like that, it is not a spec series. We all know that, so in a sport full of if's and but's, we are just trying to compare them as best as we can.


Ha ! I say good luck to anyone who would try (and said less gentle things to the ones who tried) to push me along a way that I don't agree... :-P
About the bold part, my point was precisely that i'm very well aware of this and tend to put much less emphasis on some drivers "exceptional" achievements than the usual motor sport follower. Some I consider as great drivers didn't even win an F1 race (see Jarier above). Some I see as less great (not worse...) won championship(s). Go figure...

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:02 pm 
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Harpo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Neither Senna nor Schumacher get my vote... The least I can say is that I didn't revised my judgement since I'm part of the PF1 forum.

That said, where is Surtees ?


Good shout, but I'm not sure he'll be in many people's top 10 ever


He's in mine, and couldn't vote for him...

I usually don't add my pinch of salt to this sort of cookery, cause my views on "best" or "great" are in an very short minority... I don't care that much about "official achievements" (and that's a general point of view, for every human activity). When these achievements are that much depending on the equipment you can get and carreer opportunities, and "best equipment" (and therefore best opportunities) are that limited (currently 1,5 team, and except for exceptionnal years, it was not much more before), I tend to not care at all about them. Had March not stood in the way of Jarier moving to Ferrari (as it was said at the time), he would be in the list, instead of Lauda. He is not, but does that make him a worse driver than he was, or Lauda a better one than he actually was ?
The other thing that put me in a short minority (where I know Fiki stands...), is that I care a lot about sportmanship (and human qualities in general, but that's another matter). So whatever I think of the respective driving abilities, and other qualities, of the drivers, Schumacher and Senna will never be part of neither my Best nor my Greatest own lists. I understand why it may seem unfair to most of people, but I won't change my view.

That's all fine, no one pushed you to vote in any way you don't agree, we all respect each other's votes (unless it is for someone we don't like :-P).

As for the bold part, unfortunately this is a sport that works like that, it is not a spec series. We all know that, so in a sport full of if's and but's, we are just trying to compare them as best as we can.


Ha ! I say good luck to anyone who would try (and said less gentle things to the ones who tried) to push me along a way that I don't agree... :-P
About the bold part, my point was precisely that i'm very well aware of this and tend to put much less emphasis on some drivers "exceptional" achievements than the usual motor sport follower. Some I consider as great drivers didn't even win an F1 race (see Jarier above). Some I see as less great (not worse...) won championship(s). Go figure...


I'll admit I haven't really followed Jarier. Don't they say that the best F1 driver is a lumberjack somewhere in Siberia waiting to be discovered? Go figure indeed!


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:08 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:

Good shout, but I'm not sure he'll be in many people's top 10 ever


He's in mine, and couldn't vote for him...

I usually don't add my pinch of salt to this sort of cookery, cause my views on "best" or "great" are in an very short minority... I don't care that much about "official achievements" (and that's a general point of view, for every human activity). When these achievements are that much depending on the equipment you can get and carreer opportunities, and "best equipment" (and therefore best opportunities) are that limited (currently 1,5 team, and except for exceptionnal years, it was not much more before), I tend to not care at all about them. Had March not stood in the way of Jarier moving to Ferrari (as it was said at the time), he would be in the list, instead of Lauda. He is not, but does that make him a worse driver than he was, or Lauda a better one than he actually was ?
The other thing that put me in a short minority (where I know Fiki stands...), is that I care a lot about sportmanship (and human qualities in general, but that's another matter). So whatever I think of the respective driving abilities, and other qualities, of the drivers, Schumacher and Senna will never be part of neither my Best nor my Greatest own lists. I understand why it may seem unfair to most of people, but I won't change my view.

That's all fine, no one pushed you to vote in any way you don't agree, we all respect each other's votes (unless it is for someone we don't like :-P).

As for the bold part, unfortunately this is a sport that works like that, it is not a spec series. We all know that, so in a sport full of if's and but's, we are just trying to compare them as best as we can.


Ha ! I say good luck to anyone who would try (and said less gentle things to the ones who tried) to push me along a way that I don't agree... :-P
About the bold part, my point was precisely that i'm very well aware of this and tend to put much less emphasis on some drivers "exceptional" achievements than the usual motor sport follower. Some I consider as great drivers didn't even win an F1 race (see Jarier above). Some I see as less great (not worse...) won championship(s). Go figure...


I'll admit I haven't really followed Jarier. Don't they say that the best F1 driver is a lumberjack somewhere in Siberia waiting to be discovered? Go figure indeed!


The only thing I really know about Jarier is that he retired from the lead when standing in at Lotus and James Hunt didn't think much of him -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHS53krjxkg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e16fDASkcGY


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:11 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Harpo wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Harpo wrote:

He's in mine, and couldn't vote for him...

I usually don't add my pinch of salt to this sort of cookery, cause my views on "best" or "great" are in an very short minority... I don't care that much about "official achievements" (and that's a general point of view, for every human activity). When these achievements are that much depending on the equipment you can get and carreer opportunities, and "best equipment" (and therefore best opportunities) are that limited (currently 1,5 team, and except for exceptionnal years, it was not much more before), I tend to not care at all about them. Had March not stood in the way of Jarier moving to Ferrari (as it was said at the time), he would be in the list, instead of Lauda. He is not, but does that make him a worse driver than he was, or Lauda a better one than he actually was ?
The other thing that put me in a short minority (where I know Fiki stands...), is that I care a lot about sportmanship (and human qualities in general, but that's another matter). So whatever I think of the respective driving abilities, and other qualities, of the drivers, Schumacher and Senna will never be part of neither my Best nor my Greatest own lists. I understand why it may seem unfair to most of people, but I won't change my view.

That's all fine, no one pushed you to vote in any way you don't agree, we all respect each other's votes (unless it is for someone we don't like :-P).

As for the bold part, unfortunately this is a sport that works like that, it is not a spec series. We all know that, so in a sport full of if's and but's, we are just trying to compare them as best as we can.


Ha ! I say good luck to anyone who would try (and said less gentle things to the ones who tried) to push me along a way that I don't agree... :-P
About the bold part, my point was precisely that i'm very well aware of this and tend to put much less emphasis on some drivers "exceptional" achievements than the usual motor sport follower. Some I consider as great drivers didn't even win an F1 race (see Jarier above). Some I see as less great (not worse...) won championship(s). Go figure...


I'll admit I haven't really followed Jarier. Don't they say that the best F1 driver is a lumberjack somewhere in Siberia waiting to be discovered? Go figure indeed!


The only thing I really know about Jarier is that he retired from the lead when standing in at Lotus and James Hunt didn't think much of him -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHS53krjxkg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e16fDASkcGY


Wow classic Hunt comments there!!!


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