planetf1.com

It is currently Sun Dec 08, 2019 8:13 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic

How good was Stirling Moss
Legendary - in the all time top 10 40%  40%  [ 17 ]
Legendary - but not in the all time top 10 33%  33%  [ 14 ]
Legendary outside of F1, but not in F1 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Legendary in the 1950s but we've had 58 years of Formula 1 since he retired so not any more. 7%  7%  [ 3 ]
Great, but overrated 10%  10%  [ 4 ]
Who is Stirling Moss? 2%  2%  [ 1 ]
Other 5%  5%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 42
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:40 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm
Posts: 3633
In the 'Is Sebastian Vettel a Top-Ten All-Time Great?' thread - the thorny issue of whether his 4x WDC automatically grants him legendary status or not has brought up the issue of Stirling Moss widely considered to be one of the sport's legendary drivers despite never winning a WDC.

Now, as someone who was born long after he retired, I didn't get to see him race, but obviously as an avid F1 fan I have heard the legends. It is generally accepted he is the greatest driver never to win an F1 WDC title however given that 27 more drivers have won the WDC since he retired, even having just one WDC is no longer as special as it used to be (ie, they had been 11 WDC years when he retired, compared to 69 since he retired.

However, it would be unkind to simply use that analysis - he was a very dominant driver.

For example, he is the driver with the most wins who has not been WDC despite racing far few races than any of them:













1Stirling Moss1951–19616716
2David Coulthard1994–200824713
3Carlos Reutemann1972–198214612
4Felipe Massa2002–201727211
4Rubens Barrichello1993–201132611
6Ronnie Peterson1970–197812310
6Gerhard Berger1984–199721010
8Mark Webber2002–20132179
9Jacky Ickx1967–19791228
10René Arnoux1978–19891657
10Juan Pablo Montoya2001–2006957
10Daniel Ricciardo2011–20191627
10Max Verstappen2015–2019937


He raced in two thirds the number of races that Max Verstappen or Montoya raced in, but has more than double the wins.

He was runner up in the WDC on four occasions, most famously against Mike Hawthorn when he personally protested against Hawthorns disqualification in the Portuguese Grand Prix despite that act ultimately handing Hawthorn the title (although this was not in the deciding race)

The other three runners up positions were to Fangio.

His percentage wins of 23.9% would put 10th in the highest percentage of winners (when you exclude Wallard and Vukovich who only competed in Indy 500 events so their stats are non comparable)

He was also incredibly highly rated by his peers to the point that even today, suggesting that he is not an all time great seems almost blasphemous.

I don't think there is any doubt that Stirling Moss was an exceptional driver, I think he was almost certainly a titan of his day - but in his day Formula 1 was a new sport, with no established history - he retired at the end of the 12th season. If we were to take just the last 12 years of Formula 1 and build an all time top 10 list, Button and Rosberg would be top 6 drivers - there's a good chance that Massa would be in it. Massa would be the driver that only just lost the WDC to the driver who went on to win 6 titles and the drivers with the highest number of wins who didn't become WDC.

Another detail to consider is that Moss raced during a time that motorsport was mixed discipline. You didn't just race F1, you raced everything. And in everything-but-F1 Moss's Wikipedia page is a constantly stream of yellow "1st"s - which again, affects how the legend is remembered.

When motorsport was multidiscipline the driver's reputation was based on their performance overall. These drivers would be racing Moss in Formula 1 at one weekend, and Lemans at the next. He'd be beating them most of the time and while Formula 1 wasn't important it wasn't the be-all-and-end-all. Today, driver's are single discipline and consequently - that's where it matters. Of course, this does bring up the thorny issue of comparing eras, and ultimately when motorsport went from multi discipline to single discipline is probably one of the more significant lines.

However, it could be argued that just as in other sports - such as tennis, where until Andy Murray won a grand slam there were always questions about whether he should be considered one of the sport's top four players, or just the best of the rest - that delivering on something is just as important as everyone knowing you were good enough to have done it if things had been different.

It's a curious question, and one that is difficult to answer as I suspect nearly everyone on this forum was born too late to have living memory of Moss's racing career. It's one I don't know the answer to, and by that, I mean I don't know what I think. I know that he was an exceptional driver. I know that his reputation continues to be strong in the sport - but I'm curious as to what others think about it...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:26 am
Posts: 761
"suggesting that he is not an all time great seems almost blasphemous"

Your said it : Your thread is blasphemous...

_________________
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:38 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm
Posts: 3633
Harpo wrote:
"suggesting that he is not an all time great seems almost blasphemous"

Your said it : Your thread is blasphemous...

For the record, Stirling Moss is in my top 10. However just saying because it is so, or because it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise is not a justification. If it is that clear cut, if it is that definitive that he must be a top 10 driver of all time - then it should be easy to make that case rather than just say "HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST STIRLING MOSS IS NOT A TOP 10 DRIVER OF ALL TIME"


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:39 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2015 9:33 pm
Posts: 2581
He gets major props for being the classiest of all-time (or so I've heard).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:26 am
Posts: 761
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
Harpo wrote:
"suggesting that he is not an all time great seems almost blasphemous"

Your said it : Your thread is blasphemous...

For the record, Stirling Moss is in my top 10. However just saying because it is so, or because it's ludicrous to suggest otherwise is not a justification. If it is that clear cut, if it is that definitive that he must be a top 10 driver of all time - then it should be easy to make that case rather than just say "HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST STIRLING MOSS IS NOT A TOP 10 DRIVER OF ALL TIME"

He, I was just kidding...
That said, there is something about my own "all time greats" (which is a reason why I rarely get involved in these discussions about ranking). It's difficult for me to put any of today's or recent F1 drivers among the "all time great racing drivers" because they just race F1 cars and that's all.
One of the best story about Stirling Moss is his win at the 1959 Nurburgring 1000 km. Though being notoriously stingy, he paid the entry of the John Wyer Aston-Martin (Wyer didn't want to go to this race) and hired his co-driver... Moss was confortably leading when he gave the car to his co-driver (who had been hired to drive only the mandatory minimun laps) who binned it in a ditch when it started raining, spent some time pushing the car out of the ditch, and started it thanks to the downward straight that was following the curve he had missed. When he got back to the pits, Moss was no more waiting for him and ready to leave the track, the confortable lead had been turned into a big delay. Moss put back his helmet and gloves, jumped in the car, catched back the leading Ferraris, overtook them, built a gap that his co-driver turned into delay on his second stint... Moss finally won the race and got the money prize (that was the deal with Wyer)... And Aston-Martin, that didn't want to enter the Nurburgring race, won this year championship thanks to this win.

_________________
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".


Last edited by Harpo on Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7902
So much was written in the other thread, I can't really add anything more. The sport has evolved so much that it is difficult to compare drivers. He was definitely one of the top amongst his peers, he can easily be in anyone's top 10 list.

In my opinion he can find his way in there. However, as time goes by he will eventually be overtaken by someone, say when(/if) Max gets 9 WDCs in the future. But you can most certainly make a case for Moss to be included in a top-10 list.

In general it is almost pointless to compare the different eras; for example, for me Ascari should have been up there, the only other driver that really took it to Fangio and got the results (back to back WDC's). Just look his own yellow stream in Wiki, apart from taking a legendary dive in the Med!!! As he sadly went too soon, no one mentions him in lists like these, but he was a fascinating driver to say the least. Maybe Fangio would not end up with 5 WDC's had Ascari not died, who knows?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:09 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16410
Siao7 wrote:
So much was written in the other thread, I can't really add anything more. The sport has evolved so much that it is difficult to compare drivers. He was definitely one of the top amongst his peers, he can easily be in anyone's top 10 list.

In my opinion he can find his way in there. However, as time goes by he will eventually be overtaken by someone, say when(/if) Max gets 9 WDCs in the future. But you can most certainly make a case for Moss to be included in a top-10 list.

In general it is almost pointless to compare the different eras; for example, for me Ascari should have been up there, the only other driver that really took it to Fangio and got the results (back to back WDC's). Just look his own yellow stream in Wiki, apart from taking a legendary dive in the Med!!! As he sadly went too soon, no one mentions him in lists like these, but he was a fascinating driver to say the least. Maybe Fangio would not end up with 5 WDC's had Ascari not died, who knows?


I did!

I rate Ascari higher than Moss. I think he was Fangio's equal.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:33 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am
Posts: 1256
Just look at his WIKI. It's ridiculous.

_________________
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:33 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 33350
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
So much was written in the other thread, I can't really add anything more. The sport has evolved so much that it is difficult to compare drivers. He was definitely one of the top amongst his peers, he can easily be in anyone's top 10 list.

In my opinion he can find his way in there. However, as time goes by he will eventually be overtaken by someone, say when(/if) Max gets 9 WDCs in the future. But you can most certainly make a case for Moss to be included in a top-10 list.

In general it is almost pointless to compare the different eras; for example, for me Ascari should have been up there, the only other driver that really took it to Fangio and got the results (back to back WDC's). Just look his own yellow stream in Wiki, apart from taking a legendary dive in the Med!!! As he sadly went too soon, no one mentions him in lists like these, but he was a fascinating driver to say the least. Maybe Fangio would not end up with 5 WDC's had Ascari not died, who knows?


I did!

I rate Ascari higher than Moss. I think he was Fangio's equal.

I read that as well, in the first 2 years he beat Fangio, the third year he was killed.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:58 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am
Posts: 1256
DOLOMITE wrote:
Just look at his WIKI. It's ridiculous.



Things were sure different back then

"After about 90 miles, as Moss approached Padua at 175 mph (282 km/h) he saw in his mirror that Castellotti was closing fast. When Moss misjudged a corner and collided with some straw bales Castellotti went past and built an increasing lead. After 188 miles of racing the Italian had to stop in Ravenna to replace the Ferrari's tyres, and fell behind again. Marzotto's Ferrari started well but the tread separated from a tyre at over 170 mph (274 km/h) and he had to withdraw from the race because the spare turned out to be the wrong size.

The petrol tank filler came adrift as they neared the Adriatic coast and drenched them both. Jenkinson's spectacles were blown off by the slipstream when he vomited over the side of the Mercedes; he carried a replacement pair. Arriving in Rome, he and Moss were told they were leading from Taruffi, Herrmann, Kling and Fangio, but from then on they had no way of knowing whether any of their rivals had gone ahead on elapsed time. Soon after Rome, Kling's race ended when he went off the road avoiding spectators and crashed into a tree.

When Moss and Jenkinson finally arrived at the finish in Brescia they learned that Castellotti's Ferrari had retired with transmission trouble and they had won. Fangio took second place, nearly 33 minutes slower, his Mercedes delayed by engine trouble and running on only seven cylinders by the end. Maglioli, in the sole surviving factory-entered Ferrari, took 45 minutes longer than Moss and finished 3rd."

Stuff of legends.

_________________
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:43 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7857
Location: Belgium
I voted 'other'. Legandary, but just as difficult to rank as Fangio, Clark and all the other drivers who inspired us to follow this sport.

Consider this: the very fact you ask the question, all this time after his heyday, means he is legendary.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 230
He always gave 100%, often exceeding what ought to be possible with the equipment he drove.

He never looked fast because he was always smooth.

IMO his only flaw was some mechanical sympathy, i.e. his cars broke too often

I never saw him race before his accident but like Clark, Stewart, Senna & Schumacher he was a cut above his rivals, on a par with Fangio


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7902
mikeyg123 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
So much was written in the other thread, I can't really add anything more. The sport has evolved so much that it is difficult to compare drivers. He was definitely one of the top amongst his peers, he can easily be in anyone's top 10 list.

In my opinion he can find his way in there. However, as time goes by he will eventually be overtaken by someone, say when(/if) Max gets 9 WDCs in the future. But you can most certainly make a case for Moss to be included in a top-10 list.

In general it is almost pointless to compare the different eras; for example, for me Ascari should have been up there, the only other driver that really took it to Fangio and got the results (back to back WDC's). Just look his own yellow stream in Wiki, apart from taking a legendary dive in the Med!!! As he sadly went too soon, no one mentions him in lists like these, but he was a fascinating driver to say the least. Maybe Fangio would not end up with 5 WDC's had Ascari not died, who knows?


I did!

I rate Ascari higher than Moss. I think he was Fangio's equal.


Ah, yeah, it was a rhetorical "no one mentions him"! Good for you, I always regarded him as one of the best. I can't believe he is not mentioned as often as the other greats.

But anyway, this is for Moss


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6771
Location: Nebraska, USA
Being one of the few In here who was around In the era of Stirling Moss the driver, I can tell you that Moss reached "legendary" status In his own time. While he may not have a WDC to his name, it is not because he lacked the driving skills, in fact, I believe he would have been a multip!e champion were it not for his great desire to drive a British car to a WDC, thus putting him cars not of the equal of Ferrari, Maserati, and except for a short time, Mercedes. (Connaughts and Vanwalls, as well as early Lotus, were often fast and very unreliable over a season) Even with the dominate Mercedes 196 he found himself at the wishes of JMF, as evidenced by the time the team secretly switched cars during the night because Fangio couldn't match the Moss times the day before. Moss didn't know anything about it until the next morning, race day, when he got in his "new" car and something didn't feel right. There seemingly was nothing Moss could not drive, and drive fast, as evidenced by his many wins in other levels and racing disciplines and is critical to the thread title.

It is difficult to really tell the Moss story In a few paragraphs for many reasons, but, if I may, I suggest that those who really want to know Stirling Moss the driver seem copies of a couple of Moss' early books, "In the track of Speed" and "A Turn at the Wheel". They are autobiogrphical, on one also has a chapter the Denis Jenkinson legendary telling of the famed, record-setting Mille Miglia. The are books written in the 50s when memories were fresh and are a great insight into the early years of F1 and it's drivers, teams and courses, along with LeMans, Targa Florio and of course, the Mills Miglia. Both are just reads for those who want to know if the era and understand that F1 didn't start with Lewis, or even Senna/Prost. It is worth the effort to find them...It took me 30 years to finally get copies of both of them...thank God for the internet. BTW, I think that I personally wore out the Spencer Iowa Public Library copy of "in the Track of Speed" and remember my name being the ONLY one on the library card for it, but the card was filled!

A couple more notes. Did you know that Moss even bought a Maserati 250F and had it painted BRG, such was his passion for his country. It was Stirling Moss who was my early racing "hero" and I was devastated when the accident happened in '62. So, as pokerman pointed out, I definitely have Moss In my Top 10, where I also have Jimmy Clark at the top of my list. Funny for a guy repeatedly called an Anglophone by a former member of this forum... P.S. My I'D of Blake is from William Blake, a British artist.
:lol:

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:51 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 8:07 am
Posts: 1256
Blake wrote:
Being one of the few In here who was around In the era of Stirling Moss the driver, I can tell you that Moss reached "legendary" status In his own time. While he may not have a WDC to his name, it is not because he lacked the driving skills, in fact, I believe he would have been a multip!e champion were it not for his great desire to drive a British car to a WDC, thus putting him cars not of the equal of Ferrari, Maserati, and except for a short time, Mercedes. (Connaughts and Vanwalls, as well as early Lotus, were often fast and very unreliable over a season) Even with the dominate Mercedes 196 he found himself at the wishes of JMF, as evidenced by the time the team secretly switched cars during the night because Fangio couldn't match the Moss times the day before. Moss didn't know anything about it until the next morning, race day, when he got in his "new" car and something didn't feel right. There seemingly was nothing Moss could not drive, and drive fast, as evidenced by his many wins in other levels and racing disciplines and is critical to the thread title.

It is difficult to really tell the Moss story In a few paragraphs for many reasons, but, if I may, I suggest that those who really want to know Stirling Moss the driver seem copies of a couple of Moss' early books, "In the track of Speed" and "A Turn at the Wheel". They are autobiogrphical, on one also has a chapter the Denis Jenkinson legendary telling of the famed, record-setting Mille Miglia. The are books written in the 50s when memories were fresh and are a great insight into the early years of F1 and it's drivers, teams and courses, along with LeMans, Targa Florio and of course, the Mills Miglia. Both are just reads for those who want to know if the era and understand that F1 didn't start with Lewis, or even Senna/Prost. It is worth the effort to find them...It took me 30 years to finally get copies of both of them...thank God for the internet. BTW, I think that I personally wore out the Spencer Iowa Public Library copy of "in the Track of Speed" and remember my name being the ONLY one on the library card for it, but the card was filled!

A couple more notes. Did you know that Moss even bought a Maserati 250F and had it painted BRG, such was his passion for his country. It was Stirling Moss who was my early racing "hero" and I was devastated when the accident happened in '62. So, as pokerman pointed out, I definitely have Moss In my Top 10, where I also have Jimmy Clark at the top of my list. Funny for a guy repeatedly called an Anglophone by a former member of this forum... P.S. My I'D of Blake is from William Blake, a British artist.
:lol:


I think it's OK to cal you an Anglophone Blake. Your English is just fine!

_________________
"I'd rather lose a race going fast enough to win it, than win one going slow enough to lose it".
-Stirling Moss


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6771
Location: Nebraska, USA
DOLOMITE wrote:
Blake wrote:
Being one of the few In here who was around In the era of Stirling Moss the driver, I can tell you that Moss reached "legendary" status In his own time. While he may not have a WDC to his name, it is not because he lacked the driving skills, in fact, I believe he would have been a multip!e champion were it not for his great desire to drive a British car to a WDC, thus putting him cars not of the equal of Ferrari, Maserati, and except for a short time, Mercedes. (Connaughts and Vanwalls, as well as early Lotus, were often fast and very unreliable over a season) Even with the dominate Mercedes 196 he found himself at the wishes of JMF, as evidenced by the time the team secretly switched cars during the night because Fangio couldn't match the Moss times the day before. Moss didn't know anything about it until the next morning, race day, when he got in his "new" car and something didn't feel right. There seemingly was nothing Moss could not drive, and drive fast, as evidenced by his many wins in other levels and racing disciplines and is critical to the thread title.

It is difficult to really tell the Moss story In a few paragraphs for many reasons, but, if I may, I suggest that those who really want to know Stirling Moss the driver seem copies of a couple of Moss' early books, "In the track of Speed" and "A Turn at the Wheel". They are autobiogrphical, on one also has a chapter the Denis Jenkinson legendary telling of the famed, record-setting Mille Miglia. The are books written in the 50s when memories were fresh and are a great insight into the early years of F1 and it's drivers, teams and courses, along with LeMans, Targa Florio and of course, the Mills Miglia. Both are just reads for those who want to know if the era and understand that F1 didn't start with Lewis, or even Senna/Prost. It is worth the effort to find them...It took me 30 years to finally get copies of both of them...thank God for the internet. BTW, I think that I personally wore out the Spencer Iowa Public Library copy of "in the Track of Speed" and remember my name being the ONLY one on the library card for it, but the card was filled!

A couple more notes. Did you know that Moss even bought a Maserati 250F and had it painted BRG, such was his passion for his country. It was Stirling Moss who was my early racing "hero" and I was devastated when the accident happened in '62. So, as pokerman pointed out, I definitely have Moss In my Top 10, where I also have Jimmy Clark at the top of my list. Funny for a guy repeatedly called an Anglophone by a former member of this forum... P.S. My I'D of Blake is from William Blake, a British artist.
:lol:


I think it's OK to cal you an Anglophone Blake. Your English is just fine!


:lol: where is auto correct when you need it???

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 3:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6771
Location: Nebraska, USA
Why is my exit button missing on my long post?

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 4:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:37 am
Posts: 241
I am always skeptical reading about "legendary" drivers with unfulfilled potential (Gilles Villeneuve being a case in point) - even more so when it's "one of our own". The British press is ridiculously biased (I suppose as all the other ones - the difference being I can read English, and most of the global consumption of reading material happens to be in English) - just look at the needless hype around (and the subsequent excuses for) Jolyon Palmer, an absolute embarrassment as an F1 driver. This gets amplified exponentially when there is a genuinely good prospect out there (Button/Russell/Norris), or when they are fighting "the evil Germans/Italians" (Hamilton, forgetting the fact that Merc is a German company).

The other reason being the lens of time which makes everything in the past appear to be better than it was (just look up how people think we live in dangerous times, even though the world has never been safer, statistically speaking. Or the gaps between the teams, if we are to focus on F1).

I haven't been fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on how you see it) enough to watch Moss race, and statistics tell you what you want to hear - but I personally would not rate him in the top 10, and perhaps not even in my ATG list. The story of his sportsmanship (if true) is commendable, but I struggle to place him higher than his contemporaries in Ascari/Fangio. For one to be an ATG he/she needs to be head and shoulders above his peers in my eyes, much like Clark/Stewart/Fittipaldi/Senna/Schumacher/Hamilton - Moss just doesn't stand out for me. If he weren't British, we probably wouldn't be talking about him the same way.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Aug 28, 2011 8:48 pm
Posts: 3311
Location: UK
A.J. wrote:
I am always skeptical reading about "legendary" drivers with unfulfilled potential (Gilles Villeneuve being a case in point) - even more so when it's "one of our own". The British press is ridiculously biased (I suppose as all the other ones - the difference being I can read English, and most of the global consumption of reading material happens to be in English) - just look at the needless hype around (and the subsequent excuses for) Jolyon Palmer, an absolute embarrassment as an F1 driver. This gets amplified exponentially when there is a genuinely good prospect out there (Button/Russell/Norris), or when they are fighting "the evil Germans/Italians" (Hamilton, forgetting the fact that Merc is a German company).

The other reason being the lens of time which makes everything in the past appear to be better than it was (just look up how people think we live in dangerous times, even though the world has never been safer, statistically speaking. Or the gaps between the teams, if we are to focus on F1).

I haven't been fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on how you see it) enough to watch Moss race, and statistics tell you what you want to hear - but I personally would not rate him in the top 10, and perhaps not even in my ATG list. The story of his sportsmanship (if true) is commendable, but I struggle to place him higher than his contemporaries in Ascari/Fangio. For one to be an ATG he/she needs to be head and shoulders above his peers in my eyes, much like Clark/Stewart/Fittipaldi/Senna/Schumacher/Hamilton - Moss just doesn't stand out for me. If he weren't British, we probably wouldn't be talking about him the same way.

This has always been my point of view as well. To be placed in the top 10 I think Moss needed to be at the same level as Fangio, and he wasn't quite there. Undoubtedly still a racing legend though.

Mine is quite an uninformed opinion though given that Moss' career was well before my time. What will people say about Fernando Alonso in 40 years time when all they have to go on is to read his career stats on Wikipedia?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm
Posts: 3633
I remember watching a documentary about Stirling Moss that sold me on his position as an all time great - it was a while ago, but I think it was this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtRWhPQVAY8


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm
Posts: 4362
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
I remember watching a documentary about Stirling Moss that sold me on his position as an all time great - it was a while ago, but I think it was this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtRWhPQVAY8


Good find. Thanks for sharing.

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:26 am
Posts: 761
A.J. wrote:
I am always skeptical reading about "legendary" drivers with unfulfilled potential (Gilles Villeneuve being a case in point) - even more so when it's "one of our own". The British press is ridiculously biased (I suppose as all the other ones - the difference being I can read English, and most of the global consumption of reading material happens to be in English) - just look at the needless hype around (and the subsequent excuses for) Jolyon Palmer, an absolute embarrassment as an F1 driver. This gets amplified exponentially when there is a genuinely good prospect out there (Button/Russell/Norris), or when they are fighting "the evil Germans/Italians" (Hamilton, forgetting the fact that Merc is a German company).

The other reason being the lens of time which makes everything in the past appear to be better than it was (just look up how people think we live in dangerous times, even though the world has never been safer, statistically speaking. Or the gaps between the teams, if we are to focus on F1).

I haven't been fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on how you see it) enough to watch Moss race, and statistics tell you what you want to hear - but I personally would not rate him in the top 10, and perhaps not even in my ATG list. The story of his sportsmanship (if true) is commendable, but I struggle to place him higher than his contemporaries in Ascari/Fangio. For one to be an ATG he/she needs to be head and shoulders above his peers in my eyes, much like Clark/Stewart/Fittipaldi/Senna/Schumacher/Hamilton - Moss just doesn't stand out for me. If he weren't British, we probably wouldn't be talking about him the same way.


I read english too, though that's not my mother tongue... I'm well aware of the outrageous chauvinist bias of the British press, but as a Frenchman from France (the other navel of the world - Chauvin is a French word, and name, go figure ! No one would start a trial against France for being biased in favour of England) who can also read French, I can tell you that no French with historical knowledge of motor racing, and certainly not the ones who are old enough to have real memories of the late fifties era and young enough to be still following motor racing, would contest the top ten status of Stirling Moss.

_________________
As my brother said : "I've got the brain of a four year old. I'll bet he was glad to be rid of it".


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:23 am
Posts: 3056
j man wrote:
A.J. wrote:
I am always skeptical reading about "legendary" drivers with unfulfilled potential (Gilles Villeneuve being a case in point) - even more so when it's "one of our own". The British press is ridiculously biased (I suppose as all the other ones - the difference being I can read English, and most of the global consumption of reading material happens to be in English) - just look at the needless hype around (and the subsequent excuses for) Jolyon Palmer, an absolute embarrassment as an F1 driver. This gets amplified exponentially when there is a genuinely good prospect out there (Button/Russell/Norris), or when they are fighting "the evil Germans/Italians" (Hamilton, forgetting the fact that Merc is a German company).

The other reason being the lens of time which makes everything in the past appear to be better than it was (just look up how people think we live in dangerous times, even though the world has never been safer, statistically speaking. Or the gaps between the teams, if we are to focus on F1).

I haven't been fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on how you see it) enough to watch Moss race, and statistics tell you what you want to hear - but I personally would not rate him in the top 10, and perhaps not even in my ATG list. The story of his sportsmanship (if true) is commendable, but I struggle to place him higher than his contemporaries in Ascari/Fangio. For one to be an ATG he/she needs to be head and shoulders above his peers in my eyes, much like Clark/Stewart/Fittipaldi/Senna/Schumacher/Hamilton - Moss just doesn't stand out for me. If he weren't British, we probably wouldn't be talking about him the same way.

This has always been my point of view as well. To be placed in the top 10 I think Moss needed to be at the same level as Fangio, and he wasn't quite there. Undoubtedly still a racing legend though.

Mine is quite an uninformed opinion though given that Moss' career was well before my time. What will people say about Fernando Alonso in 40 years time when all they have to go on is to read his career stats on Wikipedia?


Well Alonso's career post 2006 pales in comparison to Moss, WDC positions, level of competition, and certainly non-F1 achievements. Although Moss did have everything going for him to become a 'name'. First Brit too really take it to the opposition, spoke in BBC English; so he was 'safe' for TV, and surrounded himself with 'crumpet' so highly photogenic.

And yes, he did have a compliant, almost subservient press; but then everyone of stature did in those days. Be it sportsmen, politicians and basically any petty official in a blazer. Putting his first win in context of todays media-the mighty Mercedes came home 1-2-3-4 and almost everyone; including Moss, believing he was handed the win by Fangio-he would have been castigated by the press, and forums such as this one would be bringing it up 10 years after the event whenever his name was mentioned in the same breath as Hamilton/Vettel and Alonso. So a different world media wise.

Notwithstanding that he could race anything, not that spectacularly, but he would get the most out of what was under him. Not a particular favourite of mine; I preferred the likes of Clark, Hill and Surtees. They were the kids favourites; our dads were Moss supporters. I have a lot more respect for him nowadays; and if not in my top ten, no lower than 11 or 12.

His sister Pat was a bit of a beast behind the wheel as well; great rally driver.


http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/8 ... 3_moss.jpg


Last edited by shoot999 on Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16410
shoot999 wrote:
j man wrote:
A.J. wrote:
I am always skeptical reading about "legendary" drivers with unfulfilled potential (Gilles Villeneuve being a case in point) - even more so when it's "one of our own". The British press is ridiculously biased (I suppose as all the other ones - the difference being I can read English, and most of the global consumption of reading material happens to be in English) - just look at the needless hype around (and the subsequent excuses for) Jolyon Palmer, an absolute embarrassment as an F1 driver. This gets amplified exponentially when there is a genuinely good prospect out there (Button/Russell/Norris), or when they are fighting "the evil Germans/Italians" (Hamilton, forgetting the fact that Merc is a German company).

The other reason being the lens of time which makes everything in the past appear to be better than it was (just look up how people think we live in dangerous times, even though the world has never been safer, statistically speaking. Or the gaps between the teams, if we are to focus on F1).

I haven't been fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on how you see it) enough to watch Moss race, and statistics tell you what you want to hear - but I personally would not rate him in the top 10, and perhaps not even in my ATG list. The story of his sportsmanship (if true) is commendable, but I struggle to place him higher than his contemporaries in Ascari/Fangio. For one to be an ATG he/she needs to be head and shoulders above his peers in my eyes, much like Clark/Stewart/Fittipaldi/Senna/Schumacher/Hamilton - Moss just doesn't stand out for me. If he weren't British, we probably wouldn't be talking about him the same way.

This has always been my point of view as well. To be placed in the top 10 I think Moss needed to be at the same level as Fangio, and he wasn't quite there. Undoubtedly still a racing legend though.

Mine is quite an uninformed opinion though given that Moss' career was well before my time. What will people say about Fernando Alonso in 40 years time when all they have to go on is to read his career stats on Wikipedia?


Well Alonso's career post 2006 pales in comparison to Moss, WDC positions, level of competition, and certainly non-F1 achievements. Although Moss did have everything going for him to become a 'name'. First Brit too really take it to the opposition, spoke in BBC English; so he was 'safe' for TV, and surrounded himself with 'crumpet' so highly photogenic.

And yes, he did have a compliant, almost subservient press; but then everyone of stature did in those days. Be it sportsmen, politicians and basically any petty official in a blazer. Putting his first win in context of todays media-the mighty Mercedes came home 1-2-3-4 and almost everyone; including Moss, believing he was handed the win by Fangio-he would have been castigated by the press, and forums such as this one would be bringing it up 10 years after the event whenever his name was mentioned in the same breath as Hamilton/Vettel and Alonso. So a different world media wise.

Notwithstanding that he could race anything, not that spectacularly, but he would get the most out of what was under him. Not a particular favourite of mine; I preferred the likes of Clark, Hill and Surtees. They were the kids favourites; our dads were Moss supporters. I have a lot more respect for him nowadays; and if not in my top ten, no lower than 11 or 12.

His sister Pat was a bit of a beast behind the wheel as well; great rally driver.


Not sure about that one!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 9:23 am
Posts: 3056
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
j man wrote:
A.J. wrote:
I am always skeptical reading about "legendary" drivers with unfulfilled potential (Gilles Villeneuve being a case in point) - even more so when it's "one of our own". The British press is ridiculously biased (I suppose as all the other ones - the difference being I can read English, and most of the global consumption of reading material happens to be in English) - just look at the needless hype around (and the subsequent excuses for) Jolyon Palmer, an absolute embarrassment as an F1 driver. This gets amplified exponentially when there is a genuinely good prospect out there (Button/Russell/Norris), or when they are fighting "the evil Germans/Italians" (Hamilton, forgetting the fact that Merc is a German company).

The other reason being the lens of time which makes everything in the past appear to be better than it was (just look up how people think we live in dangerous times, even though the world has never been safer, statistically speaking. Or the gaps between the teams, if we are to focus on F1).

I haven't been fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on how you see it) enough to watch Moss race, and statistics tell you what you want to hear - but I personally would not rate him in the top 10, and perhaps not even in my ATG list. The story of his sportsmanship (if true) is commendable, but I struggle to place him higher than his contemporaries in Ascari/Fangio. For one to be an ATG he/she needs to be head and shoulders above his peers in my eyes, much like Clark/Stewart/Fittipaldi/Senna/Schumacher/Hamilton - Moss just doesn't stand out for me. If he weren't British, we probably wouldn't be talking about him the same way.

This has always been my point of view as well. To be placed in the top 10 I think Moss needed to be at the same level as Fangio, and he wasn't quite there. Undoubtedly still a racing legend though.

Mine is quite an uninformed opinion though given that Moss' career was well before my time. What will people say about Fernando Alonso in 40 years time when all they have to go on is to read his career stats on Wikipedia?


Well Alonso's career post 2006 pales in comparison to Moss, WDC positions, level of competition, and certainly non-F1 achievements. Although Moss did have everything going for him to become a 'name'. First Brit too really take it to the opposition, spoke in BBC English; so he was 'safe' for TV, and surrounded himself with 'crumpet' so highly photogenic.

And yes, he did have a compliant, almost subservient press; but then everyone of stature did in those days. Be it sportsmen, politicians and basically any petty official in a blazer. Putting his first win in context of todays media-the mighty Mercedes came home 1-2-3-4 and almost everyone; including Moss, believing he was handed the win by Fangio-he would have been castigated by the press, and forums such as this one would be bringing it up 10 years after the event whenever his name was mentioned in the same breath as Hamilton/Vettel and Alonso. So a different world media wise.

Notwithstanding that he could race anything, not that spectacularly, but he would get the most out of what was under him. Not a particular favourite of mine; I preferred the likes of Clark, Hill and Surtees. They were the kids favourites; our dads were Moss supporters. I have a lot more respect for him nowadays; and if not in my top ten, no lower than 11 or 12.

His sister Pat was a bit of a beast behind the wheel as well; great rally driver.


Not sure about that one!


From first full season WDC position 2-2-2-2-3-3-3. Rivals Fangio-Hawthorn-Phil Hill-Brabham-McLaren-Clark-Surtees-Hill-Gurney?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 7:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu May 12, 2011 6:08 pm
Posts: 4362
shoot999 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
j man wrote:
A.J. wrote:
I am always skeptical reading about "legendary" drivers with unfulfilled potential (Gilles Villeneuve being a case in point) - even more so when it's "one of our own". The British press is ridiculously biased (I suppose as all the other ones - the difference being I can read English, and most of the global consumption of reading material happens to be in English) - just look at the needless hype around (and the subsequent excuses for) Jolyon Palmer, an absolute embarrassment as an F1 driver. This gets amplified exponentially when there is a genuinely good prospect out there (Button/Russell/Norris), or when they are fighting "the evil Germans/Italians" (Hamilton, forgetting the fact that Merc is a German company).

The other reason being the lens of time which makes everything in the past appear to be better than it was (just look up how people think we live in dangerous times, even though the world has never been safer, statistically speaking. Or the gaps between the teams, if we are to focus on F1).

I haven't been fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on how you see it) enough to watch Moss race, and statistics tell you what you want to hear - but I personally would not rate him in the top 10, and perhaps not even in my ATG list. The story of his sportsmanship (if true) is commendable, but I struggle to place him higher than his contemporaries in Ascari/Fangio. For one to be an ATG he/she needs to be head and shoulders above his peers in my eyes, much like Clark/Stewart/Fittipaldi/Senna/Schumacher/Hamilton - Moss just doesn't stand out for me. If he weren't British, we probably wouldn't be talking about him the same way.

This has always been my point of view as well. To be placed in the top 10 I think Moss needed to be at the same level as Fangio, and he wasn't quite there. Undoubtedly still a racing legend though.

Mine is quite an uninformed opinion though given that Moss' career was well before my time. What will people say about Fernando Alonso in 40 years time when all they have to go on is to read his career stats on Wikipedia?


Well Alonso's career post 2006 pales in comparison to Moss, WDC positions, level of competition, and certainly non-F1 achievements. Although Moss did have everything going for him to become a 'name'. First Brit too really take it to the opposition, spoke in BBC English; so he was 'safe' for TV, and surrounded himself with 'crumpet' so highly photogenic.

And yes, he did have a compliant, almost subservient press; but then everyone of stature did in those days. Be it sportsmen, politicians and basically any petty official in a blazer. Putting his first win in context of todays media-the mighty Mercedes came home 1-2-3-4 and almost everyone; including Moss, believing he was handed the win by Fangio-he would have been castigated by the press, and forums such as this one would be bringing it up 10 years after the event whenever his name was mentioned in the same breath as Hamilton/Vettel and Alonso. So a different world media wise.

Notwithstanding that he could race anything, not that spectacularly, but he would get the most out of what was under him. Not a particular favourite of mine; I preferred the likes of Clark, Hill and Surtees. They were the kids favourites; our dads were Moss supporters. I have a lot more respect for him nowadays; and if not in my top ten, no lower than 11 or 12.

His sister Pat was a bit of a beast behind the wheel as well; great rally driver.


Not sure about that one!


From first full season WDC position 2-2-2-2-3-3-3. Rivals Fangio-Hawthorn-Phil Hill-Brabham-McLaren-Clark-Surtees-Hill-Gurney?


And don't forget he basically gave away a WDC due to sportmanship.

_________________
Power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. [Lord Acton]
My own Google Earth Motor Sport file. http://www.mediafire.com/?jzm1ieatytv
Follow me @asphalt_world


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 8:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16410
shoot999 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
j man wrote:
A.J. wrote:
I am always skeptical reading about "legendary" drivers with unfulfilled potential (Gilles Villeneuve being a case in point) - even more so when it's "one of our own". The British press is ridiculously biased (I suppose as all the other ones - the difference being I can read English, and most of the global consumption of reading material happens to be in English) - just look at the needless hype around (and the subsequent excuses for) Jolyon Palmer, an absolute embarrassment as an F1 driver. This gets amplified exponentially when there is a genuinely good prospect out there (Button/Russell/Norris), or when they are fighting "the evil Germans/Italians" (Hamilton, forgetting the fact that Merc is a German company).

The other reason being the lens of time which makes everything in the past appear to be better than it was (just look up how people think we live in dangerous times, even though the world has never been safer, statistically speaking. Or the gaps between the teams, if we are to focus on F1).

I haven't been fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on how you see it) enough to watch Moss race, and statistics tell you what you want to hear - but I personally would not rate him in the top 10, and perhaps not even in my ATG list. The story of his sportsmanship (if true) is commendable, but I struggle to place him higher than his contemporaries in Ascari/Fangio. For one to be an ATG he/she needs to be head and shoulders above his peers in my eyes, much like Clark/Stewart/Fittipaldi/Senna/Schumacher/Hamilton - Moss just doesn't stand out for me. If he weren't British, we probably wouldn't be talking about him the same way.

This has always been my point of view as well. To be placed in the top 10 I think Moss needed to be at the same level as Fangio, and he wasn't quite there. Undoubtedly still a racing legend though.

Mine is quite an uninformed opinion though given that Moss' career was well before my time. What will people say about Fernando Alonso in 40 years time when all they have to go on is to read his career stats on Wikipedia?


Well Alonso's career post 2006 pales in comparison to Moss, WDC positions, level of competition, and certainly non-F1 achievements. Although Moss did have everything going for him to become a 'name'. First Brit too really take it to the opposition, spoke in BBC English; so he was 'safe' for TV, and surrounded himself with 'crumpet' so highly photogenic.

And yes, he did have a compliant, almost subservient press; but then everyone of stature did in those days. Be it sportsmen, politicians and basically any petty official in a blazer. Putting his first win in context of todays media-the mighty Mercedes came home 1-2-3-4 and almost everyone; including Moss, believing he was handed the win by Fangio-he would have been castigated by the press, and forums such as this one would be bringing it up 10 years after the event whenever his name was mentioned in the same breath as Hamilton/Vettel and Alonso. So a different world media wise.

Notwithstanding that he could race anything, not that spectacularly, but he would get the most out of what was under him. Not a particular favourite of mine; I preferred the likes of Clark, Hill and Surtees. They were the kids favourites; our dads were Moss supporters. I have a lot more respect for him nowadays; and if not in my top ten, no lower than 11 or 12.

His sister Pat was a bit of a beast behind the wheel as well; great rally driver.


Not sure about that one!


From first full season WDC position 2-2-2-2-3-3-3. Rivals Fangio-Hawthorn-Phil Hill-Brabham-McLaren-Clark-Surtees-Hill-Gurney?


Alonso also got 4 second place WDCs and raced against Schumacher, Villeneuve, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Vettel, Rosberg, Montoya, Button and Verstappen.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7514
Location: Michigan, USA
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
From first full season WDC position 2-2-2-2-3-3-3. Rivals Fangio-Hawthorn-Phil Hill-Brabham-McLaren-Clark-Surtees-Hill-Gurney?

Alonso also got 4 second place WDCs and raced against Schumacher, Villeneuve, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Vettel, Rosberg, Montoya, Button and Verstappen.

I would rate Alonso and Moss as very equivalent drivers in their respective eras, in fact. Both were almost equal to the dominant driver of their day -- Moss to Fangio, Alonso to Hamilton -- and both proved their skill in disciplines outside of F1. Alonso won two WDCs and Moss won none, but that in terms of how they compared to their contemporaries I would say they were quite similar. Either one could easily have won several more championships if circumstances had played out just a little differently.

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
[b]AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Aug 17, 2019 5:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 7857
Location: Belgium
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
From first full season WDC position 2-2-2-2-3-3-3. Rivals Fangio-Hawthorn-Phil Hill-Brabham-McLaren-Clark-Surtees-Hill-Gurney?

Alonso also got 4 second place WDCs and raced against Schumacher, Villeneuve, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Vettel, Rosberg, Montoya, Button and Verstappen.

I would rate Alonso and Moss as very equivalent drivers in their respective eras, in fact. Both were almost equal to the dominant driver of their day -- Moss to Fangio, Alonso to Hamilton -- and both proved their skill in disciplines outside of F1. Alonso won two WDCs and Moss won none, but that in terms of how they compared to their contemporaries I would say they were quite similar. Either one could easily have won several more championships if circumstances had played out just a little differently.
I agree with your last sentence, but I struggle to understand why you consider him almost equal to Hamilton. Where do you see a distinct advantage for Hamilton? The only season they raced for the same team, they ended up equal on points.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:23 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 05, 2009 11:31 am
Posts: 7902
Exediron wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
From first full season WDC position 2-2-2-2-3-3-3. Rivals Fangio-Hawthorn-Phil Hill-Brabham-McLaren-Clark-Surtees-Hill-Gurney?

Alonso also got 4 second place WDCs and raced against Schumacher, Villeneuve, Raikkonen, Hamilton, Vettel, Rosberg, Montoya, Button and Verstappen.

I would rate Alonso and Moss as very equivalent drivers in their respective eras, in fact. Both were almost equal to the dominant driver of their day -- Moss to Fangio, Alonso to Hamilton -- and both proved their skill in disciplines outside of F1. Alonso won two WDCs and Moss won none, but that in terms of how they compared to their contemporaries I would say they were quite similar. Either one could easily have won several more championships if circumstances had played out just a little differently.


In general I agree with the sentiment, but the last sentence can be said about every single driver. A bit of different circumstances and Schumacher would be a (numbers made up here) 10xWDC, Hakkinen a 4xWDC, Senna a 6xWDC, etc. It kind of voids itself as it holds for everyone just the same. While Moss for example straight up gave away a WDC.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:49 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:13 pm
Posts: 395
I think Stirling Moss was better than some F1 champions and against modern drivers, I'd place him above Alonso and Raikkonnen.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2015 5:38 pm
Posts: 2255
Location: Miami, Florida
mikeyg123 wrote:
shoot999 wrote:
j man wrote:
A.J. wrote:
I am always skeptical reading about "legendary" drivers with unfulfilled potential (Gilles Villeneuve being a case in point) - even more so when it's "one of our own". The British press is ridiculously biased (I suppose as all the other ones - the difference being I can read English, and most of the global consumption of reading material happens to be in English) - just look at the needless hype around (and the subsequent excuses for) Jolyon Palmer, an absolute embarrassment as an F1 driver. This gets amplified exponentially when there is a genuinely good prospect out there (Button/Russell/Norris), or when they are fighting "the evil Germans/Italians" (Hamilton, forgetting the fact that Merc is a German company).

The other reason being the lens of time which makes everything in the past appear to be better than it was (just look up how people think we live in dangerous times, even though the world has never been safer, statistically speaking. Or the gaps between the teams, if we are to focus on F1).

I haven't been fortunate (or unfortunate, depending on how you see it) enough to watch Moss race, and statistics tell you what you want to hear - but I personally would not rate him in the top 10, and perhaps not even in my ATG list. The story of his sportsmanship (if true) is commendable, but I struggle to place him higher than his contemporaries in Ascari/Fangio. For one to be an ATG he/she needs to be head and shoulders above his peers in my eyes, much like Clark/Stewart/Fittipaldi/Senna/Schumacher/Hamilton - Moss just doesn't stand out for me. If he weren't British, we probably wouldn't be talking about him the same way.

This has always been my point of view as well. To be placed in the top 10 I think Moss needed to be at the same level as Fangio, and he wasn't quite there. Undoubtedly still a racing legend though.

Mine is quite an uninformed opinion though given that Moss' career was well before my time. What will people say about Fernando Alonso in 40 years time when all they have to go on is to read his career stats on Wikipedia?


Well Alonso's career post 2006 pales in comparison to Moss, WDC positions, level of competition, and certainly non-F1 achievements. Although Moss did have everything going for him to become a 'name'. First Brit too really take it to the opposition, spoke in BBC English; so he was 'safe' for TV, and surrounded himself with 'crumpet' so highly photogenic.

And yes, he did have a compliant, almost subservient press; but then everyone of stature did in those days. Be it sportsmen, politicians and basically any petty official in a blazer. Putting his first win in context of todays media-the mighty Mercedes came home 1-2-3-4 and almost everyone; including Moss, believing he was handed the win by Fangio-he would have been castigated by the press, and forums such as this one would be bringing it up 10 years after the event whenever his name was mentioned in the same breath as Hamilton/Vettel and Alonso. So a different world media wise.

Notwithstanding that he could race anything, not that spectacularly, but he would get the most out of what was under him. Not a particular favourite of mine; I preferred the likes of Clark, Hill and Surtees. They were the kids favourites; our dads were Moss supporters. I have a lot more respect for him nowadays; and if not in my top ten, no lower than 11 or 12.

His sister Pat was a bit of a beast behind the wheel as well; great rally driver.


Not sure about that one!

Yeah no. In Moss’ day, ANYONE with the money could go buy a leather cap, a pair of goggles, and opt for the scarf, and enter a race. There IS NO WAY IN HELL that the level of competition was anywhere near the level Alonso raced against. Since the 90’s drivers were complete professionals and had to qualify for the proper licensing in order to be allowed to even partake in a practice session. Please people, quit reiterating nonsensical things you saw someone post somewhere on the net.

_________________
HAMILTON :: VERSTAPPEN :: LECLERC :: BOTTAS :: VETTEL :: SAINZ :: NORRIS
KVYAT :: RAIKKONEN :: RUSSEL :: ALBON :: RICCIARDO :: HULKENBURG :: PEREZ
STROLL :: MAGNUSSEN :: GROSJEAN :: GASLY :: GIOVANAZZI :: KUBICA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 12:14 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2019 6:04 pm
Posts: 63
I think these comparisons between today and 68 years ago are pretty worthless. For instance...

Ascari’s 2:05.7 pole time at Monza in 1952 has no relevance to Hamilton’s 1:19.2 pole in 2018. Not a single race among the 7 in 1950 finished under the 2-hour limit used today (closer to 3 hours in most cases).

While the grids were 50% larger in the old days, no more than a quarter of the cars usually finished the races, reliability was so poor and accidents were rife.

The quality of driver skill (depth of talent) in the field was really poor in the old days. As noted above, “Gentleman Racers” really had no business on the track, and the standout drivers with actual talent usually stood head and shoulders above the rest…. Winning most of the races and skewing the records among a small few.

Does that make Moss, Ascari and Fangio among the greatest of all time? Hmmmmm?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:43 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 9:39 pm
Posts: 3633
DFWdude wrote:
I think these comparisons between today and 68 years ago are pretty worthless. For instance...

Ascari’s 2:05.7 pole time at Monza in 1952 has no relevance to Hamilton’s 1:19.2 pole in 2018. Not a single race among the 7 in 1950 finished under the 2-hour limit used today (closer to 3 hours in most cases).

While the grids were 50% larger in the old days, no more than a quarter of the cars usually finished the races, reliability was so poor and accidents were rife.

The quality of driver skill (depth of talent) in the field was really poor in the old days. As noted above, “Gentleman Racers” really had no business on the track, and the standout drivers with actual talent usually stood head and shoulders above the rest…. Winning most of the races and skewing the records among a small few.

Does that make Moss, Ascari and Fangio among the greatest of all time? Hmmmmm?

Of course you can't compare the laptimes. Hamilton cheated big time coming out of Parabolica on his lap.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 16410
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
DFWdude wrote:
I think these comparisons between today and 68 years ago are pretty worthless. For instance...

Ascari’s 2:05.7 pole time at Monza in 1952 has no relevance to Hamilton’s 1:19.2 pole in 2018. Not a single race among the 7 in 1950 finished under the 2-hour limit used today (closer to 3 hours in most cases).

While the grids were 50% larger in the old days, no more than a quarter of the cars usually finished the races, reliability was so poor and accidents were rife.

The quality of driver skill (depth of talent) in the field was really poor in the old days. As noted above, “Gentleman Racers” really had no business on the track, and the standout drivers with actual talent usually stood head and shoulders above the rest…. Winning most of the races and skewing the records among a small few.

Does that make Moss, Ascari and Fangio among the greatest of all time? Hmmmmm?

Of course you can't compare the laptimes. Hamilton cheated big time coming out of Parabolica on his lap.


TBF Ascari didn't even try to take any of the chicanes. Blatant cheating.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 9:02 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 7514
Location: Michigan, USA
mikeyg123 wrote:
TBF Ascari didn't even try to take any of the chicanes. Blatant cheating.

I'm not quite sure what it says about the internet that I had to check your username to make sure this wasn't a serious post...

_________________
PICK 10 COMPETITION (4 wins, 15 podiums): 3rd in 2016
TOP THREE CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): Champions in 2015 & 2018 | 2nd in 2017 & 2019
[b]AUTOSPORT GP PREDICTOR: 2017 USA & P-F1 Champion


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 10:50 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2012 11:57 am
Posts: 755
Location: Scotland/U.A.E
The fact 60 odd years later this poll exists tells you all you need to know about Moss.

However it was almost a different sport back then!

When trying to classify drivers I tend to break it down to classic and modern era, with transition between the two being a fuzzy area between mid 60s and mid 70s.

Moss was certainly one of the best from the classic era - but sport has changed so much.

_________________
I'm competing if anyone is interested in how I am getting on.
Car #36 - Blog


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2004 8:26 pm
Posts: 144
There have been too many drivers who have actually accomplished something in F1 for Moss to belong in a conversation about the top ten F1 drivers.

_________________
Does anyone think that there has ever been a moment of frustration with his father when Max has pointed out to Jos that he was the Pierre Gasly of 1994?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6771
Location: Nebraska, USA
Todd wrote:
There have been too many drivers who have actually accomplished something in F1 for Moss to belong in a conversation about the top ten F1 drivers.


There are too many forumites who did not get see Stirling Moss drive. The implication that Stirling Moss did not accomplish "something" in F1 reeks of ignorance about the man and the time. Before such statements, perhaps some research should have been done.

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:48 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 6771
Location: Nebraska, USA
DFWdude wrote:

The quality of driver skill (depth of talent) in the field was really poor in the old days. As noted above, “Gentleman Racers” really had no business on the track, and the standout drivers with actual talent usually stood head and shoulders above the rest…. Winning most of the races and skewing the records among a small few.

Does that make Moss, Ascari and Fangio among the greatest of all time? Hmmmmm?


Actually, the depth of talent was NOT really poor, quite the opposite in fact. Fangio, Ascari and Moss may the names that most of today's fan have heard of, but rest assured there were a number of other very skilled drivers...Frolian Gonzales, Luigi Musso,
Farina, Hawthorne, Behra, Collins, Brabham and others. To dismiss them as ""gentleman racers" with no business on the track is unfair to many of the early F1 drivers and to The sport as well. Incidently, more than one of the real "Gentleman Racers" were actually very good drivers as well... Count Wolfgang von Trips, coming to mind. Von Trips was actually the championship when he was killed.

So to answer your question...YES. Moss, Ascari and Fangio are among the greatest of all time.

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group