planetf1.com

Its great to have the current field of WDCs but cannot help thinking that of the 6 current WDCs, JB and Hamilton are definitely the bottom two.

Unproven as yet as far as WDCs are concerned and haven't yet demonstrated that they can drive well under pressure when the WDC is on the line.

JB got lucky that he had a car that was way better than the others and had built up a huge cushion

Hamilton dragged himself to the finish and won poorly making mistakes, displaying his lack of mental toughness and temperament. He was lucky that he was competing against Massa. He started the final race in 2008 with a 7 point lead, choked in the race and backed into the championship. Crumbled under pressure in 2007 - the mistakes in China , brazil etc etc. Many such examples in subsequent seasons.

Both of them can only win again if they get really dominant cars or theyre are in a situation that they are fighting with drivers like Massa. JB I must say is displaying some new strngth but it remains to be seen what he can do under pressure when he has to compete against the best in a WDC situation

Contrast that with
seb in 2010 - won in it style , battled a hard fighting Alonso, neither making mistakes, came from behind, mentally tough, drove extremely well under pressure

kimi in 2007 - demonstrated great temperament and drove brilliantly under pressure to win

alonso - no need to say more about him - 2005, 2006 and all the other years too

Schumacher - again has demonstrated his driving and mental strength under pressure extremely well. 2006 was a prime example - gave it all he got, only the car let him down - that blown engine in Japan - even after that he drove his heart out - the final race in brazil was another great example

Based on the record so far, I think its fair to ask the question posed in the article below
http://www.avidarticles.com/Article/Is-Lewis-Hamilton-A-Choker/30519

http://www.mycitybynight.co.za/the-all-time-greatest-chokers-in-sport-it-will-make-your-monday-true-story/

http://autostuff.org/will-lewis-hamilton-choke-two-years-in-a-row/

http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/extra/199156-stewart-berates-hamilton-errors

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/163292/1/brundle_hamilton_error_due_to_being_outsmarted_and_outperformed.html

This season with Mclaren having the best car (though with Vettel and Kimi in pretty good cars and Alonso and Schumi having the potential to improve their cars), Hamilton and Button are in the best position to answer the questions posed in this post.

I personally think that not having the mental strength and ability to handle pressure and the tendency to choke cannot be overcome.

Time will tell ... this season should provide a lot of answers

Before I take this topic seriously, are you really serious?

Maybe you should rewatch Seb in 2010

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http://www.racefan.co.uk

Can't help but feel this thread is intended to bait an argument.

JB won his championship and has only got better since, Hamilton, I feel, was incredibly quick when he won his title, I'd say he's had a few bad cars in the interim and lost a bit of that spark he had when he first came into the sport, I don't see why you'd claim someone else won under pressure when Massa won the WDC as he crossed the line only for Lewis to pull it out of the bag through the last two corners.

Then, in my mind at least, there is the guy who hasn't managed to do anything yet since he won his WDC, Kimi, who looks like he might be getting back to the top, but isn't there just yet, and his body of work since winning still looks extremely mediocre.

Great post Alien, but they can't be his ofrvorite WDC's or he'd have known that Kimi won his WDC in '07

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There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

2010 won in style?

which is more style last gasp saloon when his stars had to align and competitors had to finish lower than certain positions. His fate wasn't purely in his hands that day.

Or 2009, took the car and got the points whilst it was competitive and then got the most out of it as it was left behind. Finally wrapping up the championship a race early having a dog fight through the grid to get enough points rather than sitting back and taking it to the final race?

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

I couldn't agree more with you.

Hamilton was rubbish wasn't he. He made so many more mistakes than Seb did in 2010 I mean hamilton made errors like crashing in Monaco, driving badly in the rain at Silverstone, even running off the track at 1 point. Other errors included cheating at SPA etc.. Seb didn't make errors like turkey 2010 or Spa 2010 whilst driving among others.

Kimi was flawless in 08 too. I never realised he won the title taht year

Also Seb in 10 had a larger car advantage just with less reliability than 11 even RB stated this, making his first title quite poor and almost lost it like Hamilton/Alonso in 07.

Alonso wasn't great in 07 with the best car and rookie teammate.

Button has been great in his career and also quite poor possibly due to the car. But given a winning car he easily used it to his advantage and deserved his title, and has been driving brilliantly since 09 with only 1 silly error (Malaysia) that can remember which is better than all of Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, Alonso, Massa and all the rest of the drivers. So even if he isn't the quickest he is the most consistant.

I rate the drivers as follows:

1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Button
4. Vettel
5. Schumacher
6. Raikkonen

Thought that 2nd place could be given to either Hamilton, Button, Vettel and Schumacher and Raikkonen are hard to judge but I beleive they are/are going to be worse thaan their first run

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Close doesn't count

And thats where I stopped reading

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Jenson Button
Kimi Raikkonen
Romain Grosjean
Nico Hulkenburg

What. A. Load. Of. Balls.

I presume you aren't at the noise up, so I will take your post semi-serious. Are you even remotely aware where Kimi finished in 2008? Are you aware that every championship has a different path to the others, taking into consideration car development and driver skill? Why do you hold Alonso's 'other years?' in high acclaim? What did he achieve in 2009? Honestly mate. Away and play with yourself.

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The Mechanic: You'd have yourself a real street-sweeper here if you put a little work into it.
G.T.O.: I go fast enough.
The Driver: You can never go fast enough.

thread to bash mclaren drivers?

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Alienturnedhuman's response is brilliant. This thread is another indication of the pure school boy mentality that some forummers posses. My drivers better than your driver.. nah nah nah

Nah, he drove well. Luck might find you with the right constructor at the right time, but it is always the car + driver - so JB's consistency, focus and style combined with his oft dynamic, oft meh Brawn did the job. Great and deserving WDC.



2008 was the only year that is under consideration for the WDC and again, in combination with his car, he stayed in it to win it. It was close, but either Massa or Hamilton would have been deserving WDCs that year and as it happened, it was Hamilton.



This is true. Going into the final race, both Alonso and Webber had the advantage - and Alonso moreso. I think that Alonso failed to take risks at the end that other drivers may have taken to attempt to earn that WDC. It was an all or nothing situation after all. Even the minimal risks he took were way too late in the race because even if he'd gotten by Petrov at that point, he'd of had to catch up to Nico and Kubica to win. Either or both may have let him by easier, but it all came too late. From that perspective, luck was on Vettel's side. But Sebastian fully deserved to win. His errors were minimal that season (people will jump up and yell Turkey! Spa! But if asked to continue, they can't - and so 2 errors is, as I said, minimal). For all his reliability issues faced, he kept it in focus and pulled off one of the greatest wins in the history of the sport where we had, for the first time, 5 contenders seriously going for it throughout 95% of the season. In 2011, he had no comparable reliability issues, really, and danced to the championship, showing the absolute domination of man & machine that year. There were close races to support his meriting the WDC, and that is all one can ask for.



Kimi got third that year, which wasn't bad at all. Because Massa did better, he is condemned roundly for his driving. But he drove well through his problems that year. In 2007, he pulled off a fantastic comeback win for the WDC. But that was after winning 6 races, more than any other driver. He drove a fantastic season through reliability issues and with some spanking competition. Although Macca was on it and self imploded a bit, Kimi was very deserving of the WDC based on wins and fortitude to the end.



Well I wouldn't agree with the casual "all the other years". Alonso did well in 2005 in combination with his car to a deserved WDC, his competition was hampered with overt reliability issues, but there were close races and he was deserving of his prize. Moreso in 2006, and on the whole he was a deserving WDC in 2006. But all the other years he didn't do well in combination with his car and is relegated to "meh" with all the other top drivers in all the other years that were unable to finish on top (with the exception of those involved in +/- 5 point finishes for WDC, which was pretty darn good (+/- 11 in the new system)



This is where I would say: 7 championships; enough said. I used to be really down on Michael, but even with all the advantages one might suggest, there were stellar drives and a sustained focus that you simply have to acknowledge. In F1, playing dirty and not getting caught has always been at play - so I have to swallow my anger at some stuff. In the end, if you take 7 championships - more than any other driver in history - you win. He is the GOAT.

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Alienturnedhuman

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Nobody wins a world championship on luck alone, and everyone that wins a championship deserved to win it. They scored the most points.

I find it interesting that Button winning in the best car is 'lucky', but Vettel winning in the best car is 'winning in style'. And Hamilton drove poorly in his championship year? I can only assume you missed Silverstone?

I fail to see how a world champion can be 'unproven'. Surely by winning the championship a driver has proved his ability to deliver under pressure. Especially when they deliver despite a car disadvantage as Hamilton had in 2008 and Button had in the second half of 2009. I'll have to add my name to the growing list that strongly disagree with the OP here.

If the OP had titled the thread "I don't like McLaren because..." then i may have had more sympathy. Thinly veiled flamebait thread, imho.

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"Go forth a conqueror and win great victories"
-Virgil.

This forum's not going brilliantly since the redesign, is it?

I actually found that quite entertaining and am looking forward to the book.

"How to make forumers spit out their tea onto their laptops."
by the 26th letter of the alphabet

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Trying to use 'tongue in cheek' humour in a forum is like wearing a Borat t-shirt in Kazakhstan.

A well balanced & considered post

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Get your facts right first, then you can distort them as you please. Mark Twain.

Out of the current champs I think Vettel has the most to prove. Always having the fastest car makes things much easier.

BTW in 2010 Vettel wasn't under pressure, back then the team didn't want Webber to win.

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"Mark, Vettel is faster than you"
"Yeah but I'm in front mate"

"I'll just leave this here."

As much as I think Red Bull is heavily biased . Mark took himself out of the WDC first by injuring his shoulder. You would have thought considering the sport he was participating in when he got the injury nearly cost him his career he would have thought doing this when I can win the WDC is a bit of a silly risk.

2nd was Korea.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

Maybe only in your world they're unproven, but in real world they're world drivers champions aka the best drivers in the world on their year. You can check from Wikipedia if you have doubts.

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"OHO!-magazine number 46/2006: - I read somewhere that I drive with the luck of a drunk."

No WDC is "unproven". Even in a great car, it takes an excellent driver to make the most of it. See Frentzen 97, Irvine 98-99, Coulthard 98-00, Barrichello 00-04 and 09 for details. None of those are bad drivers by any stretch of the imagination, but they never came close to winning a WDC despite having the machinery to do it. It takes a lot more than a dominant car to win one.



Not really. JB's Brawn was dominant for the first 7 races and was able to build a huge cushion. Big difference. Barrichello was nowhere in comparison. As a car, the Brawn was much less dominant than the Redbull last year, and Button dominated Vettel style. Notice how in those same races Barrichello only got 3 second places, one of which he inherited from Vettel and Kubica's collision. It is the mark of a WDC that JB was able to maximise the advantage that he had when he had it.



Yes, Hamilton makes mistakes. Nobody is perfect, and Hamilton has his flaws. However, let's look at some other previous WDCs shall we? Raikkonen, Vettel, Hakkinen, Hill, Schumacher, and Alonso have all made silly mistakes when fighting for the title, and most of those are on the list of current WDCs. Even Button who has an unusually low error rate completely screwed himself in Malaysia.

Had suspicions, but realised you were taking the piss at this point.

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I also have one of these.

Frentzen had a shot in 1999 with the Jordan. Some people say JV messed with Frentzen's head in 1997, which could be the reason Frentzen underperformed that year. However, I really do believe JV was a better driver than Frentzen and in 1998 Frentzen was also beaten, so those rumours may just have been JV hate.

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"Mark, Vettel is faster than you"
"Yeah but I'm in front mate"

Alonso
Schumacher
Hamilton
Vettel
Button



Raikkonnen lets see

NOTE: How many mistakes has schumacher made since his return - not many

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RHCP - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7IupYmj ... ure=relmfu

I think the telling factor with some of the forums newer members this year (since the re-launch) is that zedd felt the need to give us his opinions regarding the past few WDC's, has had almost every reply disagree with him, but not felt the need to respond to any of the counter arguments or corrections. Says a lot about the mentality of the post in the first place.

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There is no theory of evolution, just a list of animals that Chuck Norris allows to live.

This is definitely an early contender for the "Worst thread of 2012" award

wake up and see the scenery.
hes wiping the floor with nico in 2012.

and when he was slower last year, he did the business when he could.

not all is as clear as you pretend old bean

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RHCP - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7IupYmj ... ure=relmfu

i think your point was clear and my answer was more clear. if i am clouded, explain further

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RHCP - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7IupYmj ... ure=relmfu

Well Ross Brawns front wing replacement bill would say differently

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

"front wing replacement bill" what eeees that when its at home

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RHCP - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7IupYmj ... ure=relmfu

The bill for all the front wings Schumacher wrecked in his first 2 years back.

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Disclaimer: The above post maybe tongue in cheek.

"I thought I'd get your theories, mock them, then embrace my own. The usual."

did he wreck any, i dont recall.

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RHCP - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7IupYmj ... ure=relmfu