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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:12 pm 
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Its great to have the current field of WDCs but cannot help thinking that of the 6 current WDCs, JB and Hamilton are definitely the bottom two.

Unproven as yet as far as WDCs are concerned and haven't yet demonstrated that they can drive well under pressure when the WDC is on the line.

JB got lucky that he had a car that was way better than the others and had built up a huge cushion

Hamilton dragged himself to the finish and won poorly making mistakes, displaying his lack of mental toughness and temperament. He was lucky that he was competing against Massa. He started the final race in 2008 with a 7 point lead, choked in the race and backed into the championship. Crumbled under pressure in 2007 - the mistakes in China , brazil etc etc. Many such examples in subsequent seasons.

Both of them can only win again if they get really dominant cars or theyre are in a situation that they are fighting with drivers like Massa. JB I must say is displaying some new strngth but it remains to be seen what he can do under pressure when he has to compete against the best in a WDC situation

Contrast that with
seb in 2010 - won in it style , battled a hard fighting Alonso, neither making mistakes, came from behind, mentally tough, drove extremely well under pressure

kimi in 2007 - demonstrated great temperament and drove brilliantly under pressure to win

alonso - no need to say more about him - 2005, 2006 and all the other years too

Schumacher - again has demonstrated his driving and mental strength under pressure extremely well. 2006 was a prime example - gave it all he got, only the car let him down - that blown engine in Japan - even after that he drove his heart out - the final race in brazil was another great example

Based on the record so far, I think its fair to ask the question posed in the article below
http://www.avidarticles.com/Article/Is-Lewis-Hamilton-A-Choker/30519

http://www.mycitybynight.co.za/the-all-time-greatest-chokers-in-sport-it-will-make-your-monday-true-story/

http://autostuff.org/will-lewis-hamilton-choke-two-years-in-a-row/

http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/extra/199156-stewart-berates-hamilton-errors

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/163292/1/brundle_hamilton_error_due_to_being_outsmarted_and_outperformed.html

This season with Mclaren having the best car (though with Vettel and Kimi in pretty good cars and Alonso and Schumi having the potential to improve their cars), Hamilton and Button are in the best position to answer the questions posed in this post.

I personally think that not having the mental strength and ability to handle pressure and the tendency to choke cannot be overcome.

Time will tell ... this season should provide a lot of answers


Last edited by zedd on Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:48 am, edited 9 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:22 pm 
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Before I take this topic seriously, are you really serious?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:31 pm 
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Maybe you should rewatch Seb in 2010

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:40 pm 
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Can't help but feel this thread is intended to bait an argument.

JB won his championship and has only got better since, Hamilton, I feel, was incredibly quick when he won his title, I'd say he's had a few bad cars in the interim and lost a bit of that spark he had when he first came into the sport, I don't see why you'd claim someone else won under pressure when Massa won the WDC as he crossed the line only for Lewis to pull it out of the bag through the last two corners.

Then, in my mind at least, there is the guy who hasn't managed to do anything yet since he won his WDC, Kimi, who looks like he might be getting back to the top, but isn't there just yet, and his body of work since winning still looks extremely mediocre.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:47 pm 
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Of course, on the other hand you could say*

Schumacher only managed to secure his first WDC thanks to the fact his car was running illegal traction control and the only reason he was not thrown out of the championship was because given the death of Senna the last thing Formula 1 needed was his heir apparent to be the focus of a major cheating scandal.

He was then able to secure five successive world championships due to massive favouritism of Ferrari by the powers that be, and then by the dominance of the Bridgestone tyres when all the serious non Ferrari contenders switched to Michelin.

Alonso was only win his first WDC thanks to the fact Mercedes didn't know how to build an engine that lasted the required distance. His second was won against an ageing driver of yesteryear who consequently retired at the end of the year because he couldn't face going up against...

Raikkonen managed to sneak in a World Championship thanks to not being disqualified in Australia despite running an illegal floor. He was then fortunate that the two bestest ever drivers ever in the bestest car squabbled and took points from each other and then benefited from a mindless McLaren strategy to leave his main rival out on tyres that were down to the canvas. He further demonstrated his awesomeness by fighting Hamilton to the last race in a clearly faster car... oh wait a minute, no that was Massa, the guy who is going to be getting his P45 soon because it seems that he is consistently half a second slower than his team mate.

Vettel, given the fastest car relative to the rest of the grid since the F2004 and the FW-14B managed to not walk away with the championship like his predecessors had done and instead spent the year trying to find out if he could park his front wing in his competitors' cars at high speed. He also failed to win the 2009 championship when he had the outright fastest car for at least 11 races and was only marginally slower than the Brawn in the first few. He was unable to beat Button who drove a car that had virtually zero development from the first and last race when his car was designed and evolved by the greatest car design genius the sport has ever seen.

Meanwhile... Button maximised his package when it was the fastest and managed to collect points in every race except the one he was Grosjeaned out of. This was despite the fact he was driving a car which was running an engine it was never designed to accommodate and had zero development.

Hamilton won a championship in a car his team mate only managed to secure 7th place in - the greatest difference between a WDC and his season long team mate in over 25 years. This was despite the fact that McLaren was set back 12 months in their design and were not allowed to use any technology that Ferrari may have come up with creating many closed avenues of development. Despite having a much slower car than the Ferrari and having many dodgy calls from the FIA that went against him he still managed to prevail at the end of season.

I get a sense at best this thread is a case of "my favourite WDCs are better than your WDCs", at worst an attempt to start something warm and fighty.

* Please note that this post is deliberately facetious before anyone starts spitting out their beverage over their monitors


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Great post Alien, but they can't be his ofrvorite WDC's or he'd have known that Kimi won his WDC in '07 :blush:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:02 pm 
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zedd wrote:
Its great to have the current field of WDCs but cannot help thinking that of the 6 current WDCs, JB and Hamilton are definitely the bottom two.

Unproven as yet as far as WDCs are concerned and haven't yet demonstrated that they can drive well under pressure when the WDC is on the line.

JB got lucky that he had a car that was way better than the others and had built up a huge cushion

Hamilton dragged himself to the finish and won poorly making mistakes, displaying his lack of mental toughness and temperament. He was lucky that he was competing against Massa. Crumbled under pressure in 2007 - the mistakes in China , brazil etc etc. Many such examples in subsequent seasons.

Both of them can only win again if they get really dominant cars or theyre are in a situation that they are fighting with drivers like Massa. JB I must say is displaying some new strngth but it remains to be seen what he can do under pressure when he has to compete against the best in a WDC situation

Contrast that with
seb in 2010 - won in it style , battled a hard fighting Alonso, neither making mistakes, came from behind, mentally tough, drove extremely well under pressure

kimi in 2008 - again demonstrated great temperament and drove brilliantly under pressure to win

alonso - no need to say more about him - 2005, 2006 and all the other years too

Schumacher - again has demonstrated his driving and mental strength under pressure extremely well. 2006 was a prime example - gave it all he got, only the car let him down - that blown engine in Japan - even after that he drove his heart out - the final race in brazil was another great example


2010 won in style?

which is more style last gasp saloon when his stars had to align and competitors had to finish lower than certain positions. His fate wasn't purely in his hands that day.

Or 2009, took the car and got the points whilst it was competitive and then got the most out of it as it was left behind. Finally wrapping up the championship a race early having a dog fight through the grid to get enough points rather than sitting back and taking it to the final race?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:06 pm 
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I couldn't agree more with you.

Hamilton was rubbish wasn't he. He made so many more mistakes than Seb did in 2010 I mean hamilton made errors like crashing in Monaco, driving badly in the rain at Silverstone, even running off the track at 1 point. Other errors included cheating at SPA etc.. Seb didn't make errors like turkey 2010 or Spa 2010 whilst driving among others.

Kimi was flawless in 08 too. I never realised he won the title taht year

Also Seb in 10 had a larger car advantage just with less reliability than 11 even RB stated this, making his first title quite poor and almost lost it like Hamilton/Alonso in 07.

Alonso wasn't great in 07 with the best car and rookie teammate.

Button has been great in his career and also quite poor possibly due to the car. But given a winning car he easily used it to his advantage and deserved his title, and has been driving brilliantly since 09 with only 1 silly error (Malaysia) that can remember which is better than all of Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, Alonso, Massa and all the rest of the drivers. So even if he isn't the quickest he is the most consistant.

I rate the drivers as follows:

1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Button
4. Vettel
5. Schumacher
6. Raikkonen

Thought that 2nd place could be given to either Hamilton, Button, Vettel and Schumacher and Raikkonen are hard to judge but I beleive they are/are going to be worse thaan their first run

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:21 pm 
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zedd wrote:
Its great to have the current field of WDCs but cannot help thinking that of the 6 current WDCs, JB and Hamilton are definitely the bottom two.

Unproven as yet as far as WDCs are concerned and haven't yet demonstrated that they can drive well under pressure when the WDC is on the line.

JB got lucky that he had a car that was way better than the others and had built up a huge cushion

Hamilton dragged himself to the finish and won poorly making mistakes, displaying his lack of mental toughness and temperament. He was lucky that he was competing against Massa. Crumbled under pressure in 2007 - the mistakes in China , brazil etc etc. Many such examples in subsequent seasons.

Both of them can only win again if they get really dominant cars or theyre are in a situation that they are fighting with drivers like Massa. JB I must say is displaying some new strngth but it remains to be seen what he can do under pressure when he has to compete against the best in a WDC situation

Contrast that with
seb in 2010 - won in it style , battled a hard fighting Alonso, neither making mistakes, came from behind, mentally tough, drove extremely well under pressure

kimi in 2008 - again demonstrated great temperament and drove brilliantly under pressure to win

alonso - no need to say more about him - 2005, 2006 and all the other years too

Schumacher - again has demonstrated his driving and mental strength under pressure extremely well. 2006 was a prime example - gave it all he got, only the car let him down - that blown engine in Japan - even after that he drove his heart out - the final race in brazil was another great example


And thats where I stopped reading

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:35 pm 
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zedd wrote:
Its great to have the current field of WDCs but cannot help thinking that of the 6 current WDCs, JB and Hamilton are definitely the bottom two.

Unproven as yet as far as WDCs are concerned and haven't yet demonstrated that they can drive well under pressure when the WDC is on the line.

JB got lucky that he had a car that was way better than the others and had built up a huge cushion

Hamilton dragged himself to the finish and won poorly making mistakes, displaying his lack of mental toughness and temperament. He was lucky that he was competing against Massa. Crumbled under pressure in 2007 - the mistakes in China , brazil etc etc. Many such examples in subsequent seasons.

Both of them can only win again if they get really dominant cars or theyre are in a situation that they are fighting with drivers like Massa. JB I must say is displaying some new strngth but it remains to be seen what he can do under pressure when he has to compete against the best in a WDC situation

Contrast that with
seb in 2010 - won in it style , battled a hard fighting Alonso, neither making mistakes, came from behind, mentally tough, drove extremely well under pressure

kimi in 2008 - again demonstrated great temperament and drove brilliantly under pressure to win

alonso - no need to say more about him - 2005, 2006 and all the other years too

Schumacher - again has demonstrated his driving and mental strength under pressure extremely well. 2006 was a prime example - gave it all he got, only the car let him down - that blown engine in Japan - even after that he drove his heart out - the final race in brazil was another great example


What. A. Load. Of. Balls.

I presume you aren't at the noise up, so I will take your post semi-serious. Are you even remotely aware where Kimi finished in 2008? Are you aware that every championship has a different path to the others, taking into consideration car development and driver skill? Why do you hold Alonso's 'other years?' in high acclaim? What did he achieve in 2009? Honestly mate. Away and play with yourself.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:48 pm 
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thread to bash mclaren drivers?

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:12 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman's response is brilliant. This thread is another indication of the pure school boy mentality that some forummers posses. My drivers better than your driver.. nah nah nah


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:21 pm 
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zedd wrote:
Its great to have the current field of WDCs but cannot help thinking that of the 6 current WDCs, JB and Hamilton are definitely the bottom two.

Unproven as yet as far as WDCs are concerned and haven't yet demonstrated that they can drive well under pressure when the WDC is on the line.

JB got lucky that he had a car that was way better than the others and had built up a huge cushion


Nah, he drove well. Luck might find you with the right constructor at the right time, but it is always the car + driver - so JB's consistency, focus and style combined with his oft dynamic, oft meh Brawn did the job. Great and deserving WDC.

Quote:
Hamilton dragged himself to the finish and won poorly making mistakes, displaying his lack of mental toughness and temperament. He was lucky that he was competing against Massa. Crumbled under pressure in 2007 - the mistakes in China , brazil etc etc. Many such examples in subsequent seasons.


2008 was the only year that is under consideration for the WDC and again, in combination with his car, he stayed in it to win it. It was close, but either Massa or Hamilton would have been deserving WDCs that year and as it happened, it was Hamilton.

Quote:
seb in 2010 - won in it style , battled a hard fighting Alonso, neither making mistakes, came from behind, mentally tough, drove extremely well under pressure


This is true. Going into the final race, both Alonso and Webber had the advantage - and Alonso moreso. I think that Alonso failed to take risks at the end that other drivers may have taken to attempt to earn that WDC. It was an all or nothing situation after all. Even the minimal risks he took were way too late in the race because even if he'd gotten by Petrov at that point, he'd of had to catch up to Nico and Kubica to win. Either or both may have let him by easier, but it all came too late. From that perspective, luck was on Vettel's side. But Sebastian fully deserved to win. His errors were minimal that season (people will jump up and yell Turkey! Spa! But if asked to continue, they can't - and so 2 errors is, as I said, minimal). For all his reliability issues faced, he kept it in focus and pulled off one of the greatest wins in the history of the sport where we had, for the first time, 5 contenders seriously going for it throughout 95% of the season. In 2011, he had no comparable reliability issues, really, and danced to the championship, showing the absolute domination of man & machine that year. There were close races to support his meriting the WDC, and that is all one can ask for.

Quote:
kimi in 2008 - again demonstrated great temperament and drove brilliantly under pressure to win


Kimi got third that year, which wasn't bad at all. Because Massa did better, he is condemned roundly for his driving. But he drove well through his problems that year. In 2007, he pulled off a fantastic comeback win for the WDC. But that was after winning 6 races, more than any other driver. He drove a fantastic season through reliability issues and with some spanking competition. Although Macca was on it and self imploded a bit, Kimi was very deserving of the WDC based on wins and fortitude to the end.

Quote:
alonso - no need to say more about him - 2005, 2006 and all the other years too


Well I wouldn't agree with the casual "all the other years". Alonso did well in 2005 in combination with his car to a deserved WDC, his competition was hampered with overt reliability issues, but there were close races and he was deserving of his prize. Moreso in 2006, and on the whole he was a deserving WDC in 2006. But all the other years he didn't do well in combination with his car and is relegated to "meh" with all the other top drivers in all the other years that were unable to finish on top (with the exception of those involved in +/- 5 point finishes for WDC, which was pretty darn good (+/- 11 in the new system)

Quote:
Schumacher - again has demonstrated his driving and mental strength under pressure extremely well. 2006 was a prime example - gave it all he got, only the car let him down - that blown engine in Japan - even after that he drove his heart out - the final race in brazil was another great example


This is where I would say: 7 championships; enough said. I used to be really down on Michael, but even with all the advantages one might suggest, there were stellar drives and a sustained focus that you simply have to acknowledge. In F1, playing dirty and not getting caught has always been at play - so I have to swallow my anger at some stuff. In the end, if you take 7 championships - more than any other driver in history - you win. He is the GOAT.


Last edited by bourbon19 on Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:22 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 9:29 pm 
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Nobody wins a world championship on luck alone, and everyone that wins a championship deserved to win it. They scored the most points.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:01 pm 
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zedd wrote:
Its great to have the current field of WDCs but cannot help thinking that of the 6 current WDCs, JB and Hamilton are definitely the bottom two.

Unproven as yet as far as WDCs are concerned and haven't yet demonstrated that they can drive well under pressure when the WDC is on the line.

JB got lucky that he had a car that was way better than the others and had built up a huge cushion

Hamilton dragged himself to the finish and won poorly making mistakes, displaying his lack of mental toughness and temperament. He was lucky that he was competing against Massa. Crumbled under pressure in 2007 - the mistakes in China , brazil etc etc. Many such examples in subsequent seasons.

Both of them can only win again if they get really dominant cars or theyre are in a situation that they are fighting with drivers like Massa. JB I must say is displaying some new strngth but it remains to be seen what he can do under pressure when he has to compete against the best in a WDC situation

Contrast that with
seb in 2010 - won in it style , battled a hard fighting Alonso, neither making mistakes, came from behind, mentally tough, drove extremely well under pressure

kimi in 2008 - again demonstrated great temperament and drove brilliantly under pressure to win

alonso - no need to say more about him - 2005, 2006 and all the other years too

Schumacher - again has demonstrated his driving and mental strength under pressure extremely well. 2006 was a prime example - gave it all he got, only the car let him down - that blown engine in Japan - even after that he drove his heart out - the final race in brazil was another great example


I find it interesting that Button winning in the best car is 'lucky', but Vettel winning in the best car is 'winning in style'. And Hamilton drove poorly in his championship year? I can only assume you missed Silverstone?

I fail to see how a world champion can be 'unproven'. Surely by winning the championship a driver has proved his ability to deliver under pressure. Especially when they deliver despite a car disadvantage as Hamilton had in 2008 and Button had in the second half of 2009. I'll have to add my name to the growing list that strongly disagree with the OP here.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:05 pm 
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If the OP had titled the thread "I don't like McLaren because..." then i may have had more sympathy. Thinly veiled flamebait thread, imho. :thumbdown:

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 11:55 pm 
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This forum's not going brilliantly since the redesign, is it?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:09 am 
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seanox wrote:
This forum's not going brilliantly since the redesign, is it?


:thumbup: :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:12 am 
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seanox wrote:
This forum's not going brilliantly since the redesign, is it?

I actually found that quite entertaining and am looking forward to the book.

"How to make forumers spit out their tea onto their laptops."
by the 26th letter of the alphabet

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:39 am 
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bourbon19 wrote:
zedd wrote:
Its great to have the current field of WDCs but cannot help thinking that of the 6 current WDCs, JB and Hamilton are definitely the bottom two.

Unproven as yet as far as WDCs are concerned and haven't yet demonstrated that they can drive well under pressure when the WDC is on the line.

JB got lucky that he had a car that was way better than the others and had built up a huge cushion


Nah, he drove well. Luck might find you with the right constructor at the right time, but it is always the car + driver - so JB's consistency, focus and style combined with his oft dynamic, oft meh Brawn did the job. Great and deserving WDC.

Quote:
Hamilton dragged himself to the finish and won poorly making mistakes, displaying his lack of mental toughness and temperament. He was lucky that he was competing against Massa. Crumbled under pressure in 2007 - the mistakes in China , brazil etc etc. Many such examples in subsequent seasons.


2008 was the only year that is under consideration for the WDC and again, in combination with his car, he stayed in it to win it. It was close, but either Massa or Hamilton would have been deserving WDCs that year and as it happened, it was Hamilton.

Quote:
seb in 2010 - won in it style , battled a hard fighting Alonso, neither making mistakes, came from behind, mentally tough, drove extremely well under pressure


This is true. Going into the final race, both Alonso and Webber had the advantage - and Alonso moreso. I think that Alonso failed to take risks at the end that other drivers may have taken to attempt to earn that WDC. It was an all or nothing situation after all. Even the minimal risks he took were way too late in the race because even if he'd gotten by Petrov at that point, he'd of had to catch up to Nico and Kubica to win. Either or both may have let him by easier, but it all came too late. From that perspective, luck was on Vettel's side. But Sebastian fully deserved to win. His errors were minimal that season (people will jump up and yell Turkey! Spa! But if asked to continue, they can't - and so 2 errors is, as I said, minimal). For all his reliability issues faced, he kept it in focus and pulled off one of the greatest wins in the history of the sport where we had, for the first time, 5 contenders seriously going for it throughout 95% of the season. In 2011, he had no comparable reliability issues, really, and danced to the championship, showing the absolute domination of man & machine that year. There were close races to support his meriting the WDC, and that is all one can ask for.

Quote:
kimi in 2008 - again demonstrated great temperament and drove brilliantly under pressure to win


Kimi got third that year, which wasn't bad at all. Because Massa did better, he is condemned roundly for his driving. But he drove well through his problems that year. In 2007, he pulled off a fantastic comeback win for the WDC. But that was after winning 6 races, more than any other driver. He drove a fantastic season through reliability issues and with some spanking competition. Although Macca was on it and self imploded a bit, Kimi was very deserving of the WDC based on wins and fortitude to the end.

Quote:
alonso - no need to say more about him - 2005, 2006 and all the other years too


Well I wouldn't agree with the casual "all the other years". Alonso did well in 2005 in combination with his car to a deserved WDC, his competition was hampered with overt reliability issues, but there were close races and he was deserving of his prize. Moreso in 2006, and on the whole he was a deserving WDC in 2006. But all the other years he didn't do well in combination with his car and is relegated to "meh" with all the other top drivers in all the other years that were unable to finish on top (with the exception of those involved in +/- 5 point finishes for WDC, which was pretty darn good (+/- 11 in the new system)

Quote:
Schumacher - again has demonstrated his driving and mental strength under pressure extremely well. 2006 was a prime example - gave it all he got, only the car let him down - that blown engine in Japan - even after that he drove his heart out - the final race in brazil was another great example


This is where I would say: 7 championships; enough said. I used to be really down on Michael, but even with all the advantages one might suggest, there were stellar drives and a sustained focus that you simply have to acknowledge. In F1, playing dirty and not getting caught has always been at play - so I have to swallow my anger at some stuff. In the end, if you take 7 championships - more than any other driver in history - you win. He is the GOAT.


A well balanced & considered post :thumbup: :nod:

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 5:18 am 
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Out of the current champs I think Vettel has the most to prove. Always having the fastest car makes things much easier.

BTW in 2010 Vettel wasn't under pressure, back then the team didn't want Webber to win.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 6:28 am 
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Zpectre wrote:
Out of the current champs I think Vettel has the most to prove. Always having the fastest car makes things much easier.

BTW in 2010 Vettel wasn't under pressure, back then the team didn't want Webber to win.




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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:03 am 
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Zpectre wrote:
Out of the current champs I think Vettel has the most to prove. Always having the fastest car makes things much easier.

BTW in 2010 Vettel wasn't under pressure, back then the team didn't want Webber to win.



As much as I think Red Bull is heavily biased . Mark took himself out of the WDC first by injuring his shoulder. You would have thought considering the sport he was participating in when he got the injury nearly cost him his career he would have thought doing this when I can win the WDC is a bit of a silly risk.

2nd was Korea.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:32 am 
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zedd wrote:
Its great to have the current field of WDCs but cannot help thinking that of the 6 current WDCs, JB and Hamilton are definitely the bottom two.

Unproven as yet as far as WDCs are concerned and haven't yet demonstrated that they can drive well under pressure when the WDC is on the line.

JB got lucky that he had a car that was way better than the others and had built up a huge cushion

Hamilton dragged himself to the finish and won poorly making mistakes, displaying his lack of mental toughness and temperament. He was lucky that he was competing against Massa. Crumbled under pressure in 2007 - the mistakes in China , brazil etc etc. Many such examples in subsequent seasons.

Both of them can only win again if they get really dominant cars or theyre are in a situation that they are fighting with drivers like Massa. JB I must say is displaying some new strngth but it remains to be seen what he can do under pressure when he has to compete against the best in a WDC situation

Maybe only in your world they're unproven, but in real world they're world drivers champions aka the best drivers in the world on their year. You can check from Wikipedia if you have doubts.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:05 pm 
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zedd wrote:
Its great to have the current field of WDCs but cannot help thinking that of the 6 current WDCs, JB and Hamilton are definitely the bottom two.

Unproven as yet as far as WDCs are concerned and haven't yet demonstrated that they can drive well under pressure when the WDC is on the line.


No WDC is "unproven". Even in a great car, it takes an excellent driver to make the most of it. See Frentzen 97, Irvine 98-99, Coulthard 98-00, Barrichello 00-04 and 09 for details. None of those are bad drivers by any stretch of the imagination, but they never came close to winning a WDC despite having the machinery to do it. It takes a lot more than a dominant car to win one.

zedd wrote:
JB got lucky that he had a car that was way better than the others and had built up a huge cushion


Not really. JB's Brawn was dominant for the first 7 races and was able to build a huge cushion. Big difference. Barrichello was nowhere in comparison. As a car, the Brawn was much less dominant than the Redbull last year, and Button dominated Vettel style. Notice how in those same races Barrichello only got 3 second places, one of which he inherited from Vettel and Kubica's collision. It is the mark of a WDC that JB was able to maximise the advantage that he had when he had it.

zedd wrote:
Hamilton dragged himself to the finish and won poorly making mistakes, displaying his lack of mental toughness and temperament. He was lucky that he was competing against Massa. Crumbled under pressure in 2007 - the mistakes in China , brazil etc etc. Many such examples in subsequent seasons.


Yes, Hamilton makes mistakes. Nobody is perfect, and Hamilton has his flaws. However, let's look at some other previous WDCs shall we? Raikkonen, Vettel, Hakkinen, Hill, Schumacher, and Alonso have all made silly mistakes when fighting for the title, and most of those are on the list of current WDCs. Even Button who has an unusually low error rate completely screwed himself in Malaysia.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:09 pm 
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zedd wrote:
seb in 2010 - won in it style , battled a hard fighting Alonso, neither making mistakes, came from behind, mentally tough, drove extremely well under pressure


Had suspicions, but realised you were taking the gherkin at this point.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:13 pm 
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Bahamut19 wrote:
No WDC is "unproven". Even in a great car, it takes an excellent driver to make the most of it. See Frentzen 97, Irvine 98-99, Coulthard 98-00, Barrichello 00-04 and 09 for details. None of those are bad drivers by any stretch of the imagination, but they never came close to winning a WDC despite having the machinery to do it. It takes a lot more than a dominant car to win one.


Frentzen had a shot in 1999 with the Jordan. Some people say JV messed with Frentzen's head in 1997, which could be the reason Frentzen underperformed that year. However, I really do believe JV was a better driver than Frentzen and in 1998 Frentzen was also beaten, so those rumours may just have been JV hate.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:20 pm 
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Alonso
Schumacher
Hamilton
Vettel
Button



Raikkonnen lets see

NOTE: How many mistakes has schumacher made since his return - not many

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:23 pm 
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ToughGuy wrote:
NOTE: How many mistakes has schumacher made since his return - not many

Yes, his careful approach of driving slower than Rosberg and scoring less points has ensured the number of mistakes he has made have been significantly lower than most.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:30 pm 
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I think the telling factor with some of the forums newer members this year (since the re-launch) is that zedd felt the need to give us his opinions regarding the past few WDC's, has had almost every reply disagree with him, but not felt the need to respond to any of the counter arguments or corrections. Says a lot about the mentality of the post in the first place.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:35 pm 
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This is definitely an early contender for the "Worst thread of 2012" award


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
ToughGuy wrote:
NOTE: How many mistakes has schumacher made since his return - not many

Yes, his careful approach of driving slower than Rosberg and scoring less points has ensured the number of mistakes he has made have been significantly lower than most.


wake up and see the scenery.
hes wiping the floor with nico in 2012.

and when he was slower last year, he did the business when he could.

not all is as clear as you pretend old bean

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 12:47 pm 
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ToughGuy wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
ToughGuy wrote:
NOTE: How many mistakes has schumacher made since his return - not many

Yes, his careful approach of driving slower than Rosberg and scoring less points has ensured the number of mistakes he has made have been significantly lower than most.


wake up and see the scenery.
hes wiping the floor with nico in 2012.

and when he was slower last year, he did the business when he could.

not all is as clear as you pretend old bean

I think you are missing the point I was making.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:01 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
ToughGuy wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
ToughGuy wrote:
NOTE: How many mistakes has schumacher made since his return - not many

Yes, his careful approach of driving slower than Rosberg and scoring less points has ensured the number of mistakes he has made have been significantly lower than most.


wake up and see the scenery.
hes wiping the floor with nico in 2012.

and when he was slower last year, he did the business when he could.

not all is as clear as you pretend old bean

I think you are missing the point I was making.


i think your point was clear and my answer was more clear. if i am clouded, explain further

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:06 pm 
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ToughGuy wrote:
Alonso
Schumacher
Hamilton
Vettel
Button



Raikkonnen lets see

NOTE: How many mistakes has schumacher made since his return - not many



Well Ross Brawns front wing replacement bill would say differently ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:15 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
ToughGuy wrote:
Alonso
Schumacher
Hamilton
Vettel
Button



Raikkonnen lets see

NOTE: How many mistakes has schumacher made since his return - not many



Well Ross Brawns front wing replacement bill would say differently ;)


"front wing replacement bill" :lol: what eeees that when its at home

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:16 pm 
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ToughGuy wrote:
Johnston wrote:
ToughGuy wrote:
Alonso
Schumacher
Hamilton
Vettel
Button



Raikkonnen lets see

NOTE: How many mistakes has schumacher made since his return - not many



Well Ross Brawns front wing replacement bill would say differently ;)


"front wing replacement bill" :lol: what eeees that when its at home



The bill for all the front wings Schumacher wrecked in his first 2 years back.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:17 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
ToughGuy wrote:
Johnston wrote:
ToughGuy wrote:
Alonso
Schumacher
Hamilton
Vettel
Button



Raikkonnen lets see

NOTE: How many mistakes has schumacher made since his return - not many



Well Ross Brawns front wing replacement bill would say differently ;)


"front wing replacement bill" :lol: what eeees that when its at home



The bill for all the front wings Schumacher wrecked in his first 2 years back.


did he wreck any, i dont recall. ;)

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 1:19 pm 
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ToughGuy wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
ToughGuy wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
ToughGuy wrote:
NOTE: How many mistakes has schumacher made since his return - not many

Yes, his careful approach of driving slower than Rosberg and scoring less points has ensured the number of mistakes he has made have been significantly lower than most.


wake up and see the scenery.
hes wiping the floor with nico in 2012.

and when he was slower last year, he did the business when he could.

not all is as clear as you pretend old bean

I think you are missing the point I was making.


i think your point was clear and my answer was more clear. if i am clouded, explain further

The point is not who is better Rosberg or Schumacher, the point is that not making any mistakes is irrelevant if you are not delivering the results. Hamilton made more mistakes than Kovalainen during their two years as team mates however Hamilton won a WDC/came 5th and scored 7 wins whereas Heikki finished 7th and 12th and only had one win to his name.

A driver who drives closer to the limit will make more mistakes because they are driving close to the limit.


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