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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:31 am 
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:54 am 
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reminds me of kimis helmet design

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:34 am 
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Going into the european leg, thinking the 2012 WDC is going to be between Vettel, Kimi and Alonso.

Kimi does not have a good team backing him and that is going to make the difference to his chances. Bouiller is going to be pushing Grosjean and that will hurt Kimi

Vettel has the best odds as of now, great racer, proven under pressure and a solid car and team behind him that knows how to win

Alonso - the car is suspect but Ferrari is sorting out the problems and Alonso is providing great leadership. The team has stepped up in terms of the other crucial areas like pit stops and strategy. If the car gets better (top 3) then Alonso will be the favorite

Button and Hamilton will get wins but as far as the WDC race is concerned it is going to be like 2010 - they are not in the same league as the other 4 when push comes to shove in a tight championship.


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Looking forward to the racing - Its going to be a good season


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:33 am 
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ToughGuy wrote:
Schumacher because hes won 7 and thats just mad
Alonso because he won those in great style against schumacher in 05 and 06
Hamilton because of his class so early in career
Vettel because he shows schumacher esque ability
Raikkonnena and AButton on a par

now thats the way it is 8)


you should check your stats tough guy...in 05 it was Alonso vs Kimi, not vs. Scummy!


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:30 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Threads like these are why internet forums can be really depressing. :uhoh:

All WDCs are proven racers. Each and every one of them. To make a thread for the purpose of trying to take credit away from some of them is just immature and foolish. To try to nitpick about who did what and who's title is more valuable is just a waste of time.

Agreed.

Totally.

Every WDC can be nit picked, every WDC in the last 10 years had either the best car or two cars were competing for dominance. A single mistake has cost a championship, 1 point, 1 win, 1 DNF.

Waste of time trying to tear apart and as for the OP - as others have said looks like some one wants to cause an arguement unless you are willing to state FACTS instead of one sided arguements. E.g Vettel did have the best car last season but he also did the better job throughout the season with minimal mistakes (only Canada comes to mind) and dominated his team mate out of the water. While the rivals were fighting each other - Vettel was untouchable or close to it.

@Alien, Totally agree with your First Post - spot on.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:53 pm 
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zedd wrote:
I personally think that not having the mental strength and ability to handle pressure and the tendency to choke cannot be overcome.


I'm not going to get into the perpetual argument on fanboy based arguments, it can be debated until entropy ceases.

But "mental strength" can be augmented by careful conditioning and treatment. By using the science of psychology and such training methods of role playing, a person can be made to handle pressure in a less negative manner.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Chuffy wrote:
Alienturnedhuman's response is brilliant. This thread is another indication of the pure school boy mentality that some forummers posses. My drivers better than your driver.. nah nah nah

:lol: :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:42 pm 
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Rediculous thread! did you say this after the Malaysian GP? :lol: vettel gets one win and kimi a podium and all of a sudden its doom for lewis who happens to be second in the standings 8) and is fully capable of winning the 2012 WDC :nod: Go Lewis!!!!!!!

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:26 pm 
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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:44 pm 
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Hamilton certainly does seem to be a bit of a bottle merchant.

Assuming almost everything else in 2010 had gone the same way, if he had avoided crashes at Monza and Singapore he would have at least been a serious contenter in Abu Dhabi.

Then again, if Vettel haad made a few less mistakes or had a few less engine issues (lost >10 points in Bahrain and 25 in Korea) he would have been easily champion. Vettels crashes in Turkey and Spa were both pretty poor. Neither strike me as a 50/50 or the kind of accident you expect of a WDC. 2011 on the other hand... While I do say the 2011 RBR was the best car, I don't think it had the margin over everyone else to such a high degree. He made some minor mistakes but his season was bordering on faultless really.

If Alonso hadn't tanked it into the wall at Spa (was that 2010 also? I think it was but I'm shooting from the hip here) he'd have been WDC. The second half of his season was damn near perfect.

In 2010 Vettel took it though. I guess his combination of car and cockups was the least offensive overall.


Button in 2009. Lucky perhaps, but the guy was good. Okay, he whined like a 3 year old kid for half the season but he was consistent, drove well and managed 7 wins and 9 podium finishes total. A single race with no points but that was pretty much entirely not his fault. So perhaps he was lucky. Perhaps Lewis, Alonso, Webber, Vettel, Rosberg etc could have done the same in the same car. Perhaps they could have done better. But he won it, and the RBR car was close the first half and better in the second half so it was still a good accomplishment.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 4:39 pm 
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I'm still convinced that while Vettel is undoubtedly an amazing driver i just think if you put the whole field in the same car i'd put him well into the bottom half as a racer, because the best drivers can take a second-rate car and get first-rate results, but when he doesn't have a dominant car he just crumbles too often under pressure unlike the true greats who can step up a gear.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:02 pm 
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Thread is tl;dr but the OP's summation of Vettel's 2010 makes me not take it seriously. There were a lot of people who said Vettel should have moved out of the way of Webber in Brazil 2010 because Webber was the better prospect for the championship.

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 6:16 pm 
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In all seriousness, 2006 was probably the best championship I've seen (the races themselves were mediocre, though).

Alonso and Schumacher were nearly flawless. Vettel was too last year, but he was out in front more often than Alonso or Schumi were in '06, and that's a little easier. In the end Schumacher made one or two more mistakes than Alonso, and that was it. Two, I guess, since Schumacher crashed out in Australia after bad luck in qualifying and struggled in Hungary (Bridgestone's intermediates were poor). Schumi had one DNF due to mechanical issues to Alonso's two (one engine, one wheel nut).

Some of the year since have included lots of mistakes from everyone, and the winner just happened to make fewer. It's worth just as much, but it doesn't give the same sense of mastery.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:47 pm 
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The thread started very badly and didn't improve.

So in 2009 Jenson Button won it by luck? Oh my...


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:55 pm 
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Only problem with Button is he's just not adaptable, because his driving style's like an on/off switch, because the car's either right or wrong and there's very little between.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:42 pm 
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Hamilton only just won - after being robbed of 6 points relative to Massa in Spa and more points for another very unjust penalty in Japan


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:59 pm 
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I'm surprised no one has brought up JV's championship of 1997. One of my friends tried to argue it was a fluke championship.lol

Same with some arguements on Rosberg and even Phil Hill.

All of these drivers with these WDC simply was the class of the field of that season. No matter how it is won, it is a WDC for that driver. Some may say they are won on luck, etc. Still, it is set in stone and no one can take that away, reguardless of the haters or antics.

All are proven drivers and were the best that season. Simple.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:19 pm 
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All champions are proven. You don't win a championship through luck alone and you can't win the championship with no luck!


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 10:47 pm 
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It's nothing to do with luck it's all about all the pieces just perfectly fitting together, with talent, car, team, confidence and opposition just being at the right place for 1 driver.


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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:25 pm 
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I fully agree that Hamilton is out of the championship, I mean he's been awful this year. I mean why pit 1 lap before the safety car? Then he stupidly makes his mechanics give him bad pitstops in Malaysia & Bahrain and he also got himself a penalty in China.

Isn't it sad reviving your own threads that serve no other purpose than to annoy folk.

I agree that Vettel, Raikkonen will be in the hunt, but never discount Alonso, & Hamilton & Button, really you think they're unproven??? the only unproven drivers are the rookies this year and several others in lower teams.

And also what does a champion have to prove? They already achieved their goal.

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PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:40 pm 
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Vettel still has to prove like the other champions have that he can win from near the back of the grid and not just drive fast with a clear track and blue flags.


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:58 am 
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PedF1 wrote:
zedd wrote:
Its great to have the current field of WDCs but cannot help thinking that of the 6 current WDCs, JB and Hamilton are definitely the bottom two.

Unproven as yet as far as WDCs are concerned and haven't yet demonstrated that they can drive well under pressure when the WDC is on the line.

JB got lucky that he had a car that was way better than the others and had built up a huge cushion

Hamilton dragged himself to the finish and won poorly making mistakes, displaying his lack of mental toughness and temperament. He was lucky that he was competing against Massa. Crumbled under pressure in 2007 - the mistakes in China , brazil etc etc. Many such examples in subsequent seasons.

Both of them can only win again if they get really dominant cars or theyre are in a situation that they are fighting with drivers like Massa. JB I must say is displaying some new strngth but it remains to be seen what he can do under pressure when he has to compete against the best in a WDC situation

Contrast that with
seb in 2010 - won in it style , battled a hard fighting Alonso, neither making mistakes, came from behind, mentally tough, drove extremely well under pressure

kimi in 2008 - again demonstrated great temperament and drove brilliantly under pressure to win

alonso - no need to say more about him - 2005, 2006 and all the other years too

Schumacher - again has demonstrated his driving and mental strength under pressure extremely well. 2006 was a prime example - gave it all he got, only the car let him down - that blown engine in Japan - even after that he drove his heart out - the final race in brazil was another great example


What. A. Load. Of. Balls.

I presume you aren't at the noise up, so I will take your post semi-serious. Are you even remotely aware where Kimi finished in 2008? Are you aware that every championship has a different path to the others, taking into consideration car development and driver skill? Why do you hold Alonso's 'other years?' in high acclaim? What did he achieve in 2009? Honestly mate. Away and play with yourself.


dude, you probably focused too hard on watching your favorite driver

let me remind you, Alonso dragged that chihuahua up to podium in Singapore


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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 6:48 am 
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You don't win the WDC if you aren't skilled.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:06 am 
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all this thread

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:29 am 
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Zpectre wrote:
Out of the current champs I think Vettel has the most to prove. Always having the fastest car makes things much easier.

BTW in 2010 Vettel wasn't under pressure, back then the team didn't want Webber to win.


he made a button on his STR days.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 10:31 am 
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What's with all the hate nowdays and trash talk of "unproven" WDCs or winners? Some people (the videogame generation?) nowdays seem to lack any perspective to the sport and forget that even being an F1 driver let alone a race winner or a WDC is much more than most of us here will ever achieve in our lives. So in that sense the image of some (proven?) armchair critic dissing WDCs simply because he thinks he knows better kind of makes me chuckle.

As I've said before, a WDC is a WDC, deal with it. History books 1 - Critical opinions 0.

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 11:38 am 
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Kiante wrote:
I'm surprised no one has brought up JV's championship of 1997. One of my friends tried to argue it was a fluke championship.lol

Same with some arguements on Rosberg and even Phil Hill.

All of these drivers with these WDC simply was the class of the field of that season. No matter how it is won, it is a WDC for that driver. Some may say they are won on luck, etc. Still, it is set in stone and no one can take that away, reguardless of the haters or antics.

All are proven drivers and were the best that season. Simple.


froze wrote:
What's with all the hate nowdays and trash talk of "unproven" WDCs or winners? Some people (the videogame generation?) nowdays seem to lack any perspective to the sport and forget that even being an F1 driver let alone a race winner or a WDC is much more than most of us here will ever achieve in our lives. So in that sense the image of some (proven?) armchair critic dissing WDCs simply because he thinks he knows better kind of makes me chuckle.

As I've said before, a WDC is a WDC, deal with it. History books 1 - Critical opinions 0.


I don't agree that a WDC winner won because they were the 'class of the field' but they won because they and their car were the best car/driver combination that season, in terms of speed, consistency, reliability etc.

Still, I find it virtually impossible to argue that any WDC is 'undeserving' or 'unworthy'. Maybe some WDCs were less worthy than others, or maybe there were better drivers in one particular year, but I think it's quite ignorant to dismiss a WDC entirely. Those who win have to perform consistently through an entire season, and it takes some talent and some mental strength to be able to do that, to deal with obstacles such as bad luck and mistakes.

Good example of that is Vettel in 2010, some argue that he was unworthy because he made so many mistakes, but the way he bounced back in the last five races was incredible. He won three races, second in Singapore and a win lost to engine failure in Korea. He showed far more mental strength than I've ever seen from any of the current field including Schumacher. And he was just 22.

Some other drivers may not perform to the best of their talents (JV '97, Hakkinen '99, arguably Schumacher '03) but still win the WDC anyway.

Also, you don't really need to be a complete driver to win a title. IMO Damon Hill wasn't, Button wasn't, nor was Vettel when he won his first. But Jenson and Vettel have improved a lot. I'd have said the same about Hamilton too before his bad season last year.

I'm sure I count as one of the 'playstation generation' but some of us have some perspective :) I don't know so much about Phil Hill or the '61 season, but I'm sure that a large majority who argue against Rosberg's title say 'Oh Villeneuve died and Pironi crashed and Rosberg wouldn't have won without those two so he got lucky'. Their knowledge of '82 goes no further than that I'm sure. Keke's is actually one of the more impressive title victories.

tl;dr Some champions are less impressive than others but that doesn't mean they were lucky, nor does it make them 'unworthy' or 'undeserving

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PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:07 pm 
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WDC's proven and unproven? Wait, I thought winning the WDC was the mark of a proven driver. How can a CHAMPION be unproven?

The thread might have a genuine question but it is ridiculously worded and misleading.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:02 pm 
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Valencia was a microcosm of what the original post states

Vettel driving the RB8 to perfection - impeccable qualifying and race until he was done in by reliability issues.
Alonso driving superbly and making the most of the situation
Kimi - let down by his team but driving very well and getting the maximum result
Schumacher - vintage driving



Hamilton - choking and crashing and throwing away valuable points only a few laps from the end
Button - unable to cope with a car that does not suit him


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:40 pm 
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ToughGuy wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
ToughGuy wrote:
NOTE: How many mistakes has schumacher made since his return - not many

Yes, his careful approach of driving slower than Rosberg and scoring less points has ensured the number of mistakes he has made have been significantly lower than most.


wake up and see the scenery.
hes wiping the floor with nico in 2012.

and when he was slower last year, he did the business when he could.

not all is as clear as you pretend old bean


Quite disillusion eh? Rosberg overall has wiped the floor of Schumacher since his return and even is doing this year, it's okay being your team mate once in a while but Rosberg always has the measure on him over the course of a season by a fair margin, no excuses can change that fact.

As for this thread, I'm sure a lock will be coming.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2012 10:55 pm 
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zedd wrote:
Valencia was a microcosm of what the original post states

Vettel driving the RB8 to perfection - impeccable qualifying and race until he was done in by reliability issues.
Alonso driving superbly and making the most of the situation
Kimi - let down by his team but driving very well and getting the maximum result
Schumacher - vintage driving



Hamilton - choking and crashing and throwing away valuable points only a few laps from the end
Button - unable to cope with a car that does not suit him

You slagged JB off for getting lucky with his title, surely all he did was "make the most of his situation"?

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:38 am 
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seanox wrote:
This forum's not going brilliantly since the redesign, is it?


Probably got that right.

But still, it could be bad, very bad, before too...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:51 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
The point is not who is better Rosberg or Schumacher, the point is that not making any mistakes is irrelevant if you are not delivering the results. Hamilton made more mistakes than Kovalainen during their two years as team mates however Hamilton won a WDC/came 5th and scored 7 wins whereas Heikki finished 7th and 12th and only had one win to his name.

A driver who drives closer to the limit will make more mistakes because they are driving close to the limit.


arguably i can counter you are saying by saying that good drivers drive close to the limit, great drivers make no mistakes near that limit.

It doesn't do you any good being as you say close to the limit but thus prone to many mistakes, maybe backing off a bit and being consistent with no mistakes will get you a better result in the end


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:53 am 
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froze wrote:
What's with all the hate nowdays and trash talk of "unproven" WDCs or winners? Some people (the videogame generation?) nowdays seem to lack any perspective to the sport and forget that even being an F1 driver let alone a race winner or a WDC is much more than most of us here will ever achieve in our lives. So in that sense the image of some (proven?) armchair critic dissing WDCs simply because he thinks he knows better kind of makes me chuckle.

As I've said before, a WDC is a WDC, deal with it. History books 1 - Critical opinions 0.


Now this is what i firmly believe.

A race winner is a big deal, so questioning a WDC is pointless for me.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:02 pm 
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Of all the threads to resurrect...


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:06 pm 
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phyz wrote:
Of all the threads to resurrect...


I think i have fallen for a bait here by a link to this thread and responded blindingly. after going back and reading through a bit i realize i was wrong :D

well too late now, i will go get me some popcorn.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:30 pm 
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While you can argue if a race winner has still to be proven or not, any driver who wins the championship is definately proven. and I cannot see a valid counter arguement to that. He who wins it, earns it. I'm not going to get dragged into a debate about x driver deserved it over y - it's a sport. Someone has to loose out just as much as someone has to win. The arguements about drivers having a car capable is one thing but the driver still has to put it on the top step every Sunday afternoon to do it.

If an artist used the same tools as say Rembrandt or Monet, would that make him able to be just as good?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:34 pm 
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:blush:


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:28 am 
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Quote:
Its great to have the current field of WDCs but cannot help thinking that of the 6 current WDCs, JB and Hamilton are definitely the bottom two.


They're only "bottom" in terms of the number of WDCs won. Meaning they're on equal footing with Raikkonen at one apiece.

What a wasted article.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:13 am 
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While I don't see the reason to bash Jenson and Lewis, those two aren't on the same level as the other guys. Kimi who shares the same 1 WDC in my opinion has always been better than Jenson or Lewis but not by much. Alonso, Vettel, and Schumaher are in a league of their own compared to those 3.


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