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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:09 am 
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To make it to F1, or even the top echelons of Motorsport in general, you need.

  • To be interested in motor sport from a young age.
  • A family, or family member, who is interested in motor sport and able to support you in the initial few years
  • A family who are able to provide enough resource to get you started
  • Support network around you
  • Money, money, money - from somewhere
  • and lastly..... Talent

Such a small demograph of people are able to make it to F1. I mean, Lance Stroll/Lando Norris must be incredibly lucky to be born into some of the wealthiest families on earth AND be world class racing drivers. The F1 grid generally are far from ordinary people.

Even Lewis Hamilton, a pauper by motor racing standards (even though he would still be better off than most by every day standards), was incredibly lucky to have his father be so supportive of him from a young age. If his dad did what 99% of fathers would do, we wouldn't have heard of Lewis Hamilton.

So for women, it's incredibly hard as so few will pass the first few tests relative to men.

Even in the series I am in this year - a completely open series and budget racing - out of 60 odd people on the grid, 3 are women. Of those 3, 1 is the daughter of one of the competitors, one is the wife of one of the competitors, and one is the girlfriend of one of the competitors.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:29 am 
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Badgeronimous wrote:
To make it to F1, or even the top echelons of Motorsport in general, you need.

  • To be interested in motor sport from a young age.
  • A family, or family member, who is interested in motor sport and able to support you in the initial few years
  • A family who are able to provide enough resource to get you started
  • Support network around you
  • Money, money, money - from somewhere
  • and lastly..... Talent

Such a small demograph of people are able to make it to F1. I mean, Lance Stroll/Lando Norris must be incredibly lucky to be born into some of the wealthiest families on earth AND be world class racing drivers. The F1 grid generally are far from ordinary people.

Even Lewis Hamilton, a pauper by motor racing standards (even though he would still be better off than most by every day standards), was incredibly lucky to have his father be so supportive of him from a young age. If his dad did what 99% of fathers would do, we wouldn't have heard of Lewis Hamilton.

So for women, it's incredibly hard as so few will pass the first few tests relative to men.

Even in the series I am in this year - a completely open series and budget racing - out of 60 odd people on the grid, 3 are women. Of those 3, 1 is the daughter of one of the competitors, one is the wife of one of the competitors, and one is the girlfriend of one of the competitors.


I don't really see anything in that list that would specifically exclude someone because of their gender. And I don't see how anyone in this age of inter-connectivity could shield a girl from being interested in or supporting motor racing if she wanted to. Nor do I see any young parents; and I'm assuming the majority of parents of young girls are young themselves, not wanting to support their daughter; as opposed to their son, if they were interested in racing.

To try out karts is reasonably cheap. And the next step; 'bambino' lessons where 6 to 7 year olds are taught to race, costs less than an average night out for a session. So its not prohibitive at that stage.

And I think if you get to that level and you display a degree of talent, again I don't see most parents wanting to curb that. The challenges faced by parents at that stage are the same for a boy as they are for a girl.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:43 am 
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My point is young girls generally are not into racing cars when they are young - a lot of young boys are. So to have an interest in wanting compete to and parental support/means to allow you to compete from young age is IMO rare.

My own family, I have 4 nieces and 2 nephews.... and my nieces are never the ones sniffing about my car. Likewise, my dad has a yard that does horse livery, guess where 2 of my nieces hang out.

That sort of is my point, a family who can support a kid into karting, can support a kid into horses or the likes. IMO the vast majority of young girls wouldn't pick car racing as their hobby, and the pool that might is an order of magnitude less than boys for starters. Then factor in parental support, I dunno, I just see dad being more likely to support son than daughter, just that 3-4% more - and I say that from experience. I might be reading or seeing it wrong though.

In motor sport money talks. The main series we support has been a bit of a feeder series for the touring cars - who gets the opportunities to officially test a Audi A3 WTCR? The guy rocking up in a transit van with a his car on an old Brian James trailer, self built car, doing his own mechanics usually with a friend helping him - or the lad in the 100k motor home, factory built car, a small team around him, and dad supporting him in karting since he was a kid. Both are performing comparably in the championship - I know who has the more raw talent, but will never get the chance.

That said, likewise, as soon as a woman appears who is good enough to compete at top level international motorsport, she will get all the doors open for her as she will be golden. Look at Danica Patrick, good driver but not brilliant, and probably one of the best known drivers from the USA.

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Last edited by Badgeronimous on Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:49 pm 
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Sponsors want results, why pump money into a driver who is at a physiological disadvantage?....Kubica is miles off the pace and he just has a crook arm.

Perhaps im just not progressive enough. Maybe if all the stars in the universe aligned we might get a competative female in F1 but I doubt it.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:03 pm 
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Ruste13 wrote:
Sponsors want results, why pump money into a driver who is at a physiological disadvantage?....Kubica is miles off the pace and he just has a crook arm.

Perhaps im just not progressive enough. Maybe if all the stars in the universe aligned we might get a competative female in F1 but I doubt it.


I don't agree with the physiological disadvantage argument per say, but even so, sponsors want exposure and a female driver in F1 would give them a huge amount of that.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:24 am 
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Then why aren't there more?

In my opinion this argument has one answer byt no one wants to say it. Females dont make as good racing drivers as Males.

Wow, I didnt burst into flames!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:47 am 
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Ruste13 wrote:
Then why aren't there more?

In my opinion this argument has one answer byt no one wants to say it. Females dont make as good racing drivers as Males.

Wow, I didnt burst into flames!


I disagree.

I think far fewer females want to be racing drivers. Obviously the fewer trying the fewer will succeed.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:17 am 
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Ruste13 wrote:
Then why aren't there more?

In my opinion this argument has one answer byt no one wants to say it. Females dont make as good racing drivers as Males.

Wow, I didnt burst into flames!


Why though is the question & to me it's simply that the available talent pool of female drivers is far shallower than the males so it stands that the odds are that those that do have a go are more likely to be of a lower standard than the males.

I don't think there's any physical barrier preventing females from being just as good as males. Danica Patrick proved that. On her day she could match it with the fella's so I think potentially a female driver could match her male counterparts. Michele Mounton is another example. I just don't think a vast majority of females are interested in participating in motor racing to begin with.

Also, as a rebuttal to the argument of those who believe the absence of a female driver in the top echelon of motor racing is down to the lack of a female role model, Danica Patrick started racing in Indy cars in 2004 & stock car racing in 2010. She's an Indy car race winner, benefited from massive exposure during her career & has been an advocate for getting women into motor sport, yet as of today, the Indy car series is totally devoid of female drivers, as is the Nascar & Indy lights series'. Where are the waves of female drivers who should be taking US motor sport by storm on the back of Patricks exploits? They're nowhere to be seen. There might be 1 or 2, I don't know, but certainly not the numbers you'd expect to see if the role model argument was valid.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:31 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Also, as a rebuttal to the argument of those who believe the absence of a female driver in the top echelon of motor racing is down to the lack of a female role model, Danica Patrick started racing in Indy cars in 2004 & stock car racing in 2010. She's an Indy car race winner, benefited from massive exposure during her career & has been an advocate for getting women into motor sport, yet as of today, the Indy car series is totally devoid of female drivers, as is the Nascar & Indy lights series'. Where are the waves of female drivers who should be taking US motor sport by storm on the back of Patricks exploits? They're nowhere to be seen. There might be 1 or 2, I don't know, but certainly not the numbers you'd expect to see if the role model argument was valid.

For that matter, where are the black drivers taking racing by storm? Are they just not good enough, aside from the freak outlier of our current world champion?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:50 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Also, as a rebuttal to the argument of those who believe the absence of a female driver in the top echelon of motor racing is down to the lack of a female role model, Danica Patrick started racing in Indy cars in 2004 & stock car racing in 2010. She's an Indy car race winner, benefited from massive exposure during her career & has been an advocate for getting women into motor sport, yet as of today, the Indy car series is totally devoid of female drivers, as is the Nascar & Indy lights series'. Where are the waves of female drivers who should be taking US motor sport by storm on the back of Patricks exploits? They're nowhere to be seen. There might be 1 or 2, I don't know, but certainly not the numbers you'd expect to see if the role model argument was valid.

For that matter, where are the black drivers taking racing by storm? Are they just not good enough, aside from the freak outlier of our current world champion?

Go to the local karting track and you'll see your answer. There will most likely not be any black kids on the track (and probably no girls either). The role model argument is a red herring. The lack of diversity you see at the top levels is directly proportional to what you see at the entry level.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:19 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Ruste13 wrote:
Then why aren't there more?

In my opinion this argument has one answer byt no one wants to say it. Females dont make as good racing drivers as Males.

Wow, I didnt burst into flames!


Why though is the question & to me it's simply that the available talent pool of female drivers is far shallower than the males so it stands that the odds are that those that do have a go are more likely to be of a lower standard than the males.

I don't think there's any physical barrier preventing females from being just as good as males. Danica Patrick proved that. On her day she could match it with the fella's so I think potentially a female driver could match her male counterparts. Michele Mounton is another example. I just don't think a vast majority of females are interested in participating in motor racing to begin with.

Also, as a rebuttal to the argument of those who believe the absence of a female driver in the top echelon of motor racing is down to the lack of a female role model, Danica Patrick started racing in Indy cars in 2004 & stock car racing in 2010. She's an Indy car race winner, benefited from massive exposure during her career & has been an advocate for getting women into motor sport, yet as of today, the Indy car series is totally devoid of female drivers, as is the Nascar & Indy lights series'. Where are the waves of female drivers who should be taking US motor sport by storm on the back of Patricks exploits? They're nowhere to be seen. There might be 1 or 2, I don't know, but certainly not the numbers you'd expect to see if the role model argument was valid.

In terms of F1 Danica Patrick was well below standard for that kind of racing.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:14 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Ruste13 wrote:
Then why aren't there more?

In my opinion this argument has one answer byt no one wants to say it. Females dont make as good racing drivers as Males.

Wow, I didnt burst into flames!


Why though is the question & to me it's simply that the available talent pool of female drivers is far shallower than the males so it stands that the odds are that those that do have a go are more likely to be of a lower standard than the males.

I don't think there's any physical barrier preventing females from being just as good as males. Danica Patrick proved that. On her day she could match it with the fella's so I think potentially a female driver could match her male counterparts. Michele Mounton is another example. I just don't think a vast majority of females are interested in participating in motor racing to begin with.

Also, as a rebuttal to the argument of those who believe the absence of a female driver in the top echelon of motor racing is down to the lack of a female role model, Danica Patrick started racing in Indy cars in 2004 & stock car racing in 2010. She's an Indy car race winner, benefited from massive exposure during her career & has been an advocate for getting women into motor sport, yet as of today, the Indy car series is totally devoid of female drivers, as is the Nascar & Indy lights series'. Where are the waves of female drivers who should be taking US motor sport by storm on the back of Patricks exploits? They're nowhere to be seen. There might be 1 or 2, I don't know, but certainly not the numbers you'd expect to see if the role model argument was valid.

In terms of F1 Danica Patrick was well below standard for that kind of racing.

Is that really relevant? If you can find a female who's among the best (sometimes) on oval racing, and a female who's dominant at rally racing, why couldn't there be one - yet to be discovered - who's at the same level in circuit racing?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:11 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Ruste13 wrote:
Then why aren't there more?

In my opinion this argument has one answer byt no one wants to say it. Females dont make as good racing drivers as Males.

Wow, I didnt burst into flames!


Why though is the question & to me it's simply that the available talent pool of female drivers is far shallower than the males so it stands that the odds are that those that do have a go are more likely to be of a lower standard than the males.

I don't think there's any physical barrier preventing females from being just as good as males. Danica Patrick proved that. On her day she could match it with the fella's so I think potentially a female driver could match her male counterparts. Michele Mounton is another example. I just don't think a vast majority of females are interested in participating in motor racing to begin with.

Also, as a rebuttal to the argument of those who believe the absence of a female driver in the top echelon of motor racing is down to the lack of a female role model, Danica Patrick started racing in Indy cars in 2004 & stock car racing in 2010. She's an Indy car race winner, benefited from massive exposure during her career & has been an advocate for getting women into motor sport, yet as of today, the Indy car series is totally devoid of female drivers, as is the Nascar & Indy lights series'. Where are the waves of female drivers who should be taking US motor sport by storm on the back of Patricks exploits? They're nowhere to be seen. There might be 1 or 2, I don't know, but certainly not the numbers you'd expect to see if the role model argument was valid.

In terms of F1 Danica Patrick was well below standard for that kind of racing.

Is that really relevant? If you can find a female who's among the best (sometimes) on oval racing, and a female who's dominant at rally racing, why couldn't there be one - yet to be discovered - who's at the same level in circuit racing?

Michele Moulton dominant at rallying?

She won 4 rallys and that was nearly 40 years ago, not a great strike rate for female talent.

Oval racing I have some ignorance about, a 35 year old English woman that was uncompetitive in European single seaters and that races once a year qualified for the Indy 500, Patrick did alright on ovals but was shocking on road courses.

Finding the next Michele Mouton might take another 40 years?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
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Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:41 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Ruste13 wrote:
Then why aren't there more?

In my opinion this argument has one answer byt no one wants to say it. Females dont make as good racing drivers as Males.

Wow, I didnt burst into flames!


Why though is the question & to me it's simply that the available talent pool of female drivers is far shallower than the males so it stands that the odds are that those that do have a go are more likely to be of a lower standard than the males.

I don't think there's any physical barrier preventing females from being just as good as males. Danica Patrick proved that. On her day she could match it with the fella's so I think potentially a female driver could match her male counterparts. Michele Mounton is another example. I just don't think a vast majority of females are interested in participating in motor racing to begin with.

Also, as a rebuttal to the argument of those who believe the absence of a female driver in the top echelon of motor racing is down to the lack of a female role model, Danica Patrick started racing in Indy cars in 2004 & stock car racing in 2010. She's an Indy car race winner, benefited from massive exposure during her career & has been an advocate for getting women into motor sport, yet as of today, the Indy car series is totally devoid of female drivers, as is the Nascar & Indy lights series'. Where are the waves of female drivers who should be taking US motor sport by storm on the back of Patricks exploits? They're nowhere to be seen. There might be 1 or 2, I don't know, but certainly not the numbers you'd expect to see if the role model argument was valid.

In terms of F1 Danica Patrick was well below standard for that kind of racing.

Is that really relevant? If you can find a female who's among the best (sometimes) on oval racing, and a female who's dominant at rally racing, why couldn't there be one - yet to be discovered - who's at the same level in circuit racing?

Michele Moulton dominant at rallying?

She won 4 rallys and that was nearly 40 years ago, not a great strike rate for female talent.

Oval racing I have some ignorance about, a 35 year old English woman that was uncompetitive in European single seaters and that races once a year qualified for the Indy 500, Patrick did alright on ovals but was shocking on road courses.

Finding the next Michele Mouton might take another 40 years?


The point being Danica had a lot of coverage. You would think if lack of a role model had been a problem there would be girls starting to come through on the US seen who had grown up watching Patrick.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:13 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Why though is the question & to me it's simply that the available talent pool of female drivers is far shallower than the males so it stands that the odds are that those that do have a go are more likely to be of a lower standard than the males.

I don't think there's any physical barrier preventing females from being just as good as males. Danica Patrick proved that. On her day she could match it with the fella's so I think potentially a female driver could match her male counterparts. Michele Mounton is another example. I just don't think a vast majority of females are interested in participating in motor racing to begin with.

Also, as a rebuttal to the argument of those who believe the absence of a female driver in the top echelon of motor racing is down to the lack of a female role model, Danica Patrick started racing in Indy cars in 2004 & stock car racing in 2010. She's an Indy car race winner, benefited from massive exposure during her career & has been an advocate for getting women into motor sport, yet as of today, the Indy car series is totally devoid of female drivers, as is the Nascar & Indy lights series'. Where are the waves of female drivers who should be taking US motor sport by storm on the back of Patricks exploits? They're nowhere to be seen. There might be 1 or 2, I don't know, but certainly not the numbers you'd expect to see if the role model argument was valid.

In terms of F1 Danica Patrick was well below standard for that kind of racing.

Is that really relevant? If you can find a female who's among the best (sometimes) on oval racing, and a female who's dominant at rally racing, why couldn't there be one - yet to be discovered - who's at the same level in circuit racing?

Michele Moulton dominant at rallying?

She won 4 rallys and that was nearly 40 years ago, not a great strike rate for female talent.

Oval racing I have some ignorance about, a 35 year old English woman that was uncompetitive in European single seaters and that races once a year qualified for the Indy 500, Patrick did alright on ovals but was shocking on road courses.

Finding the next Michele Mouton might take another 40 years?


The point being Danica had a lot of coverage. You would think if lack of a role model had been a problem there would be girls starting to come through on the US seen who had grown up watching Patrick.

So your take would be that the W series wont inspire girls either?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 21st

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:20 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
In terms of F1 Danica Patrick was well below standard for that kind of racing.

Is that really relevant? If you can find a female who's among the best (sometimes) on oval racing, and a female who's dominant at rally racing, why couldn't there be one - yet to be discovered - who's at the same level in circuit racing?

Michele Moulton dominant at rallying?

She won 4 rallys and that was nearly 40 years ago, not a great strike rate for female talent.

Oval racing I have some ignorance about, a 35 year old English woman that was uncompetitive in European single seaters and that races once a year qualified for the Indy 500, Patrick did alright on ovals but was shocking on road courses.

Finding the next Michele Mouton might take another 40 years?


The point being Danica had a lot of coverage. You would think if lack of a role model had been a problem there would be girls starting to come through on the US seen who had grown up watching Patrick.

So your take would be that the W series wont inspire girls either?


I would say the evidence suggests it won't.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:27 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

The point being Danica had a lot of coverage. You would think if lack of a role model had been a problem there would be girls starting to come through on the US seen who had grown up watching Patrick.

So your take would be that the W series wont inspire girls either?


I would say the evidence suggests it won't.


If Danica Patrick couldn't inspire girls to take up racing with all the publicity her career garnered, & it seems she couldn't, then I don't see how a segregated motor series full of female drivers who don't have the talent or the will to advance their careers via the more traditional route of mixed competition could.

Also what career path is the W series offering to the winner? Besides giving the champ 1/2 a mill to maybe buy a F3 drive or whatever, there's none.

What happens to the 2019 W Series winner if she can't get a drive in another series for 2020? Does she get another crack in the W series or that's it ? What about the other 19 girls she beat? Do they get another chance in 2020 or are they automatically omitted from the selection process for 2020? Surely there's not enough females racing who match the criteria available to allow the series organizers to discard the 19 losers from 2019 in exchange for an entirely new field in 2020?

The available talent pool that the W series can draw from is so shallow to begin with that it stands to reason that in 3, 4, 5 & even 6 years from now we'll be seeing pretty much the same faces competing that we're seeing now. It has to be like that for the series to survive which, to my way of thinking, will further diminish the respectability of the class.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:36 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

The point being Danica had a lot of coverage. You would think if lack of a role model had been a problem there would be girls starting to come through on the US seen who had grown up watching Patrick.

So your take would be that the W series wont inspire girls either?


I would say the evidence suggests it won't.


If Danica Patrick couldn't inspire girls to take up racing with all the publicity her career garnered, & it seems she couldn't, then I don't see how a segregated motor series full of female drivers who don't have the talent or the will to advance their careers via the more traditional route of mixed competition could.

Also what career path is the W series offering to the winner? Besides giving the champ 1/2 a mill to maybe buy a F3 drive or whatever, there's none.

What happens to the 2019 W Series winner if she can't get a drive in another series for 2020? Does she get another crack in the W series or that's it ? What about the other 19 girls she beat? Do they get another chance in 2020 or are they automatically omitted from the selection process for 2020? Surely there's not enough females racing who match the criteria available to allow the series organizers to discard the 19 losers from 2019 in exchange for an entirely new field in 2020?

The available talent pool that the W series can draw from is so shallow to begin with that it stands to reason that in 3, 4, 5 & even 6 years from now we'll be seeing pretty much the same faces competing that we're seeing now. It has to be like that for the series to survive which, to my way of thinking, will further diminish the respectability of the class.

nas
Valid questions and ones that I was curious about from the outset. They got the final line up from a list of 55 but I don't know how many applicants there were.
So much of the above depends on where the driver is in their career, Chadwick and Garcia for example you would hope are on the up, Visser has had a chance and is really just a useful benchmark.

I won't do the series much good if the winner sticks around in the series in subesequent years or if some drivers just stay there year-on-year but to be fair that does happen in other lower-level series as well.

I think one of the issues for me is that we really should be looking to karting for "the next generation", but W Series cars wouldn't normally be the next step from Karts so any female driver excelling in Karts still has the issue of progressing to a single seat series BEFORE W Series. I guess they could "do a Raikkonen" but it's not likely.

Other issue then is that if a driver has come through that route (FF1600 etc) then they will already have completed against males. That means they will have already either beaten them (in which case, why bother with W Series - it would prove nothing) or lost against them in which case W Series just becomes a showcase for drivers who failed on an even playing field.

So maybe the only real legit candidates are nascent driers like Chadwick who then get a better platform to showcase their skills.

It's a confusing one alright and I'm interested to see what happens for it's second year in terms of where do the successful drivers go and where does the new intake come from.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:16 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

The point being Danica had a lot of coverage. You would think if lack of a role model had been a problem there would be girls starting to come through on the US seen who had grown up watching Patrick.

So your take would be that the W series wont inspire girls either?


I would say the evidence suggests it won't.


If Danica Patrick couldn't inspire girls to take up racing with all the publicity her career garnered, & it seems she couldn't, then I don't see how a segregated motor series full of female drivers who don't have the talent or the will to advance their careers via the more traditional route of mixed competition could.

Also what career path is the W series offering to the winner? Besides giving the champ 1/2 a mill to maybe buy a F3 drive or whatever, there's none.

What happens to the 2019 W Series winner if she can't get a drive in another series for 2020? Does she get another crack in the W series or that's it ? What about the other 19 girls she beat? Do they get another chance in 2020 or are they automatically omitted from the selection process for 2020? Surely there's not enough females racing who match the criteria available to allow the series organizers to discard the 19 losers from 2019 in exchange for an entirely new field in 2020?

The available talent pool that the W series can draw from is so shallow to begin with that it stands to reason that in 3, 4, 5 & even 6 years from now we'll be seeing pretty much the same faces competing that we're seeing now. It has to be like that for the series to survive which, to my way of thinking, will further diminish the respectability of the class.

nas
Valid questions and ones that I was curious about from the outset. They got the final line up from a list of 55 but I don't know how many applicants there were.
So much of the above depends on where the driver is in their career, Chadwick and Garcia for example you would hope are on the up, Visser has had a chance and is really just a useful benchmark.

I won't do the series much good if the winner sticks around in the series in subesequent years or if some drivers just stay there year-on-year but to be fair that does happen in other lower-level series as well.

I think one of the issues for me is that we really should be looking to karting for "the next generation", but W Series cars wouldn't normally be the next step from Karts so any female driver excelling in Karts still has the issue of progressing to a single seat series BEFORE W Series. I guess they could "do a Raikkonen" but it's not likely.

Other issue then is that if a driver has come through that route (FF1600 etc) then they will already have completed against males. That means they will have already either beaten them (in which case, why bother with W Series - it would prove nothing) or lost against them in which case W Series just becomes a showcase for drivers who failed on an even playing field.

So maybe the only real legit candidates are nascent driers like Chadwick who then get a better platform to showcase their skills.

It's a confusing one alright and I'm interested to see what happens for it's second year in terms of where do the successful drivers go and where does the new intake come from.


Also i'd think that any female driver thought to have the talent to make it to F1 would've already been snapped up by 1 of the YDP's before she'd get to the W series anyway,

I 100% agree that if they were serious about getting a female into F1, they'd look at the karting level. The W series to me makes no sense at all if their objectives are what they say they are. The W series web page actually directly responds to the question of funding karting for girls with what slightly contradictory statement that leads me to believe that even they struggled to find a legitimate answer to the question.

But could the same effect not be achieved merely by investing money in junior go-karting for girls?

More money being pumped into junior go-karting for girls is to be welcomed, of course. However, ‘more in’ does not always mean ‘more out’. Girls often hit a ‘glass ceiling’ after junior karting, and if more girls are engaged in junior karting it is likely that more girls will hit that glass ceiling. That is why we are hoping that the establishment of W Series will have a positive trickle-down effect throughout motorsport, encouraging more girls into junior karting and more sponsors for women drivers as they move on up into Formula 4 and on up through all the other motorsport series. The greater the number high-profile female role models we can create, the more we believe we will inspire young girls to go karting

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:50 pm 
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Reading through the last few comments, one thought comes to mind:

Why not expand the series, break away from DTM and become a 3-tier programme?

Entry level: FF1600 or similar. Choose a mix of drivers from existing FF1600 series, and the lead female karters.
Mid level: Formula 4. The FIA already made national F4 a standard tier in the motorsport ladder. National-level tin top AND open wheel drivers would probably be a good fit here.
Top level: The current cars, more or less. Then feed the best drivers into the F3 field each season, maybe even set up a bespoke team to do away with any sponsorship issues if necessary.

This is by no means a perfectly formed plan; I don't know how viable 3 complete fields would even be, let alone how the money would work. But it solves some of the competitive problems.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:20 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Ruste13 wrote:
Then why aren't there more?

In my opinion this argument has one answer byt no one wants to say it. Females dont make as good racing drivers as Males.

Wow, I didnt burst into flames!


Why though is the question & to me it's simply that the available talent pool of female drivers is far shallower than the males so it stands that the odds are that those that do have a go are more likely to be of a lower standard than the males.

I don't think there's any physical barrier preventing females from being just as good as males. Danica Patrick proved that. On her day she could match it with the fella's so I think potentially a female driver could match her male counterparts. Michele Mounton is another example. I just don't think a vast majority of females are interested in participating in motor racing to begin with.

Also, as a rebuttal to the argument of those who believe the absence of a female driver in the top echelon of motor racing is down to the lack of a female role model, Danica Patrick started racing in Indy cars in 2004 & stock car racing in 2010. She's an Indy car race winner, benefited from massive exposure during her career & has been an advocate for getting women into motor sport, yet as of today, the Indy car series is totally devoid of female drivers, as is the Nascar & Indy lights series'. Where are the waves of female drivers who should be taking US motor sport by storm on the back of Patricks exploits? They're nowhere to be seen. There might be 1 or 2, I don't know, but certainly not the numbers you'd expect to see if the role model argument was valid.

In terms of F1 Danica Patrick was well below standard for that kind of racing.

Is that really relevant? If you can find a female who's among the best (sometimes) on oval racing, and a female who's dominant at rally racing, why couldn't there be one - yet to be discovered - who's at the same level in circuit racing?

Because quite frankly, they don't exist!

Heck, 98% of drivers are male and of those MAYBE 10% are good enough to stand out in different tiers of racing, and of those 10% less than 1% are good enough to make it to F1. With there being vastly much fewer females participating through all tiers of racing, the chances of finding that needle in a haystack is even more difficult, but "IF" there were t be one out there, do you THINK such a female would not be recruited to drive for top teams in many different categories??!?!? I mean that would be a no-brainer because the publicity alone would garner so much exposure and media coverage that sponsors would be knocking down the door to be associated with such a team & driver, similar to Danica Patrick's career. She was a solid driver and on her day was pretty damn impressive, but those days were quite few and far in between, yet she was always paid well and the teams she was on were WELL sponsored, and on days where she did well you'd see her, the team and the sponsors plastered all over TV Screens all over the world, several times over.

There have been a few prospects over the last 15-20 years, but the reality is none of them have been good enough and Danica was likely of f the very best female drivers we've ever seen. I realize there are other women out there doing respectably well in several series, but not one of them command the attention the way Hamilton, Vandoorne, Verstappen, Norris, Albon, Russel, Ricciardo, Vettel, etc, did when they were battling for wins and titles in the lower categories, and even then, not all of them set the world ablaze, so just because a woman dominates in say GP2, it doesn't mean they'd be good enough to stay in F1.

Looking at Alexander Rossi… the guy is the real deal, yet he's wasting his time racing here in the states because he can't find a seat in F1 for several reasons. If a guy THAT GOOD can't find a ride, what makes anyone THINK that any woman who couldn't ride his tailpipes is deserving of a shot in F1? And why? Because she's a woman? Off that!!! I look at every person in a car as a DRIVER first and foremost and if you judge drivers solely on that criteria, I'm willing to GO ALL IN on a wager that not a single one of the top 10 drivers in every series you can imagine, is female.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:38 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Ruste13 wrote:
Then why aren't there more?

In my opinion this argument has one answer byt no one wants to say it. Females dont make as good racing drivers as Males.

Wow, I didnt burst into flames!


Why though is the question & to me it's simply that the available talent pool of female drivers is far shallower than the males so it stands that the odds are that those that do have a go are more likely to be of a lower standard than the males.

I don't think there's any physical barrier preventing females from being just as good as males. Danica Patrick proved that. On her day she could match it with the fella's so I think potentially a female driver could match her male counterparts. Michele Mounton is another example. I just don't think a vast majority of females are interested in participating in motor racing to begin with.

Also, as a rebuttal to the argument of those who believe the absence of a female driver in the top echelon of motor racing is down to the lack of a female role model, Danica Patrick started racing in Indy cars in 2004 & stock car racing in 2010. She's an Indy car race winner, benefited from massive exposure during her career & has been an advocate for getting women into motor sport, yet as of today, the Indy car series is totally devoid of female drivers, as is the Nascar & Indy lights series'. Where are the waves of female drivers who should be taking US motor sport by storm on the back of Patricks exploits? They're nowhere to be seen. There might be 1 or 2, I don't know, but certainly not the numbers you'd expect to see if the role model argument was valid.

In terms of F1 Danica Patrick was well below standard for that kind of racing.

Is that really relevant? If you can find a female who's among the best (sometimes) on oval racing, and a female who's dominant at rally racing, why couldn't there be one - yet to be discovered - who's at the same level in circuit racing?

Because quite frankly, they don't exist!

Heck, 98% of drivers are male and of those MAYBE 10% are good enough to stand out in different tiers of racing, and of those 10% less than 1% are good enough to make it to F1. With there being vastly much fewer females participating through all tiers of racing, the chances of finding that needle in a haystack is even more difficult, but "IF" there were t be one out there, do you THINK such a female would not be recruited to drive for top teams in many different categories??!?!? I mean that would be a no-brainer because the publicity alone would garner so much exposure and media coverage that sponsors would be knocking down the door to be associated with such a team & driver, similar to Danica Patrick's career. She was a solid driver and on her day was pretty damn impressive, but those days were quite few and far in between, yet she was always paid well and the teams she was on were WELL sponsored, and on days where she did well you'd see her, the team and the sponsors plastered all over TV Screens all over the world, several times over.

There have been a few prospects over the last 15-20 years, but the reality is none of them have been good enough and Danica was likely of f the very best female drivers we've ever seen. I realize there are other women out there doing respectably well in several series, but not one of them command the attention the way Hamilton, Vandoorne, Verstappen, Norris, Albon, Russel, Ricciardo, Vettel, etc, did when they were battling for wins and titles in the lower categories, and even then, not all of them set the world ablaze, so just because a woman dominates in say GP2, it doesn't mean they'd be good enough to stay in F1.

Looking at Alexander Rossi… the guy is the real deal, yet he's wasting his time racing here in the states because he can't find a seat in F1 for several reasons. If a guy THAT GOOD can't find a ride, what makes anyone THINK that any woman who couldn't ride his tailpipes is deserving of a shot in F1? And why? Because she's a woman? Off that!!! I look at every person in a car as a DRIVER first and foremost and if you judge drivers solely on that criteria, I'm willing to GO ALL IN on a wager that not a single one of the top 10 drivers in every series you can imagine, is female.

Apparently Rossi has said that he would only drive in F1 for either Mercedes or Ferrari.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:20 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Apparently Rossi has said that he would only drive in F1 for either Mercedes or Ferrari.

Exactly… No seats available. LOL

But I'd say that's a bit inaccurate because I'm sure if Red Bull offered him a seat he'd take it because of the opportunities that presents to ANY driver. And for that matter, ANY respectable team that offers him a seat would likely get him because a seat on a respectable team in F1 is better than a good seat in Indy, with the exception of the allure of the Indy 500, and for me, the crappy cars just kill it for me to a great degree. I watch it but regardless of results the action doesn't measure up to they dynamics of featuring several different chassis and motor configuration,s as well as tires to really mix things up.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:21 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I'm willing to GO ALL IN on a wager that not a single one of the top 10 drivers in every series you can imagine, is female.


Considering the series that's currently the most relevant to the topic being discussed, I'm prepared to take that bet. ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:43 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I'm willing to GO ALL IN on a wager that not a single one of the top 10 drivers in every series you can imagine, is female.

Considering the series that's currently the most relevant to the topic being discussed, I'm prepared to take that bet. ;)

:lol:

I would assume W series is excluded.

Other than that, though, I'd put my money on the Formula Regional European Championship. It may only have 13 drivers, but Sophia Floersch is safely in the top ten!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 2:52 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I'm willing to GO ALL IN on a wager that not a single one of the top 10 drivers in every series you can imagine, is female.

Considering the series that's currently the most relevant to the topic being discussed, I'm prepared to take that bet. ;)

:lol:

I would assume W series is excluded.

Other than that, though, I'd put my money on the Formula Regional European Championship. It may only have 13 drivers, but Sophia Floersch is safely in the top ten!

Pssshyeah, because NONE of the women competing in the Dubya Series would be ANYWHERE CLOSE to being top 10 outside their own series. And WHEN we see the top 1 or 2 from that series drive an F1 car we will see how deserving they're not of an F1 seat over true top talent.

That's no different than creating a series of Cucumbers and giving the top 2 pickles a chance to drive during any session in F1. They wouldn't in a gazillion years be good enough to actually be given a seat even in the worst F1 teams.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:31 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I'm willing to GO ALL IN on a wager that not a single one of the top 10 drivers in every series you can imagine, is female.

Considering the series that's currently the most relevant to the topic being discussed, I'm prepared to take that bet. ;)

:lol:

I would assume W series is excluded.


Nope. I didn't see any fine print on the betting slip Exed.

So F1 Merc, my new digs are in Miami Florida eh?

Hmmm.... I can see myself now :smug: :nod:

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:34 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I'm willing to GO ALL IN on a wager that not a single one of the top 10 drivers in every series you can imagine, is female.

Considering the series that's currently the most relevant to the topic being discussed, I'm prepared to take that bet. ;)

:lol:

I would assume W series is excluded.


Nope. I didn't see any fine print on the betting slip Exed.

So F1 Merc, my new digs are in Miami Florida eh?

Hmmm.... I can see myself now :smug: :nod:

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https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b3/2f/1b/b32f1b8b5e702fb95ed2c0b50e2c588e.jpg


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:42 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
I'm willing to GO ALL IN on a wager that not a single one of the top 10 drivers in every series you can imagine, is female.

Considering the series that's currently the most relevant to the topic being discussed, I'm prepared to take that bet. ;)

:lol:

I would assume W series is excluded.


Nope. I didn't see any fine print on the betting slip Exed.

So F1 Merc, my new digs are in Miami Florida eh?

Hmmm.... I can see myself now :smug: :nod:

Image
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b3/2f/1b/b32f1b8b5e702fb95ed2c0b50e2c588e.jpg


You need the white Testarossa!


Yeah but I couldn't find a pic to my liking with the Testarossa in it that also captured the fashion of the time...... still, I think I could live with the Daytona.

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Non RB, Merc, Ferrari podiums won in Hybrid era - 330 trophies available, 23 won

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:45 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
Considering the series that's currently the most relevant to the topic being discussed, I'm prepared to take that bet. ;)

:lol:

I would assume W series is excluded.


Nope. I didn't see any fine print on the betting slip Exed.

So F1 Merc, my new digs are in Miami Florida eh?

Hmmm.... I can see myself now :smug: :nod:

Image
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b3/2f/1b/b32f1b8b5e702fb95ed2c0b50e2c588e.jpg


You need the white Testarossa!


Yeah but I couldn't find a pic to my liking with the Testarossa in it that also captured the fashion of the time...... still, I think I could live with the Daytona.


True, Daytona was just fine!

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:15 am 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Apparently Rossi has said that he would only drive in F1 for either Mercedes or Ferrari.

Exactly… No seats available. LOL

But I'd say that's a bit inaccurate because I'm sure if Red Bull offered him a seat he'd take it because of the opportunities that presents to ANY driver. And for that matter, ANY respectable team that offers him a seat would likely get him because a seat on a respectable team in F1 is better than a good seat in Indy, with the exception of the allure of the Indy 500, and for me, the crappy cars just kill it for me to a great degree. I watch it but regardless of results the action doesn't measure up to they dynamics of featuring several different chassis and motor configuration,s as well as tires to really mix things up.

Well he's already won the Indy 500.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 11:02 pm 
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Great Video here. Abbi Pulling, the first female British Super 1 Karting Champion. It's a great reminder of why drivers will always say karting is where drivers learn their racing chops - amazing racing and drama.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:23 pm 
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I had never heard of JuJu Noda before today, daughter of Hideki Noda, countless wins in Karts, drives an F4 car at 10 years old, breaks F4 (U17) lap records everywhere in Japan at 11 years old, drives an F3 car at 12 years old setting competitive lap times in her first time out

OK she probably has a current 20-30kg weight advantage but ...

She has the pedigree (F1 driver dad), the facilities (her dad owns and operates a race school), the sponsors (she's already sponsored by a Japanese clothing brand) and the inclination (see her interviews).

This one could be the real thing


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:40 pm 
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I note that W Series have added an additional non Championship race at Assen, the key point being a reverse grid based on the previous race result.

This should enable one to judge who amongst the faster drivers has the race craft to overtake...


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