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Will Max Verstappen become the youngest driver on pole in F1 history?
Yes, today in Mexico 27%  27%  [ 10 ]
Yes, but it'll be in Brazil 8%  8%  [ 3 ]
Yes, but it'll (somehow) happen in Abu Dhabi 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Nope, Seb will keep the record 65%  65%  [ 24 ]
Total votes : 37
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:24 am 
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It's a record that has been there for him to break since his promotion to Red Bull, but so far lining up on the front row has been the maximum he's been able to achieve. He's got three attempts at breaking Seb's record before he reaches the grand old age of 21 years and 73 days: Abu Dhabi (where he'd need a small miracle), Brazil (where weather could play a part, but even then he might need some luck) and Mexico, where based on the Red Bull's performance yesterday it appears he'll have his best chance.

So will it happen today, or will Red Bull's sizeable FP2 advantage have disappeared by the end of Q3?

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:35 am 
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I think it will happen today almost like his talent deserves it to happen.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:40 am 
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Nope. Won't happen.

I think Merc & Ferrari are too far in front over 1 lap, even in Mexico.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 11:46 am 
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The record goes today. Red Bull is stronger this year on all the special tracks - Monaco, Hungary, Singapore and now Mexico where Verstappen nearly had pole last year.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 1:28 pm 
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In a dry qualifying then it's more than likely to go as Max has had the legs on the Ricciardo lately. If it's wet then it's likely going to be a Hamilton pole, although if Red Bull's pace advantage translates in the wet, then it will be closely fought pole between Max and Lewis.

This is the only track that Red Bull are likely to be competitive, so if Max doesn't do it today, Vettel should retain the record. However, I would say that Vettel's record is more impressive, given that although Max is younger than him, he is vastly more experienced in F1 than Vettel was when he got pole in Monza (I mean, that race is probably responsible for his entire success, as I don't think Red Bull had confirmed him for 2009 at that point and I think DC only decided to retire after Vettel got his seat)

While Vettel's pole in Monza is often over exaggerated for how good it was (remember, this was before the FIA tightened the regulations on how much information teams could share, so the Toro Rosso was essentially a Red Bull with a Ferrari engine, so he was driving an Adrian Newey aero package with the second best engine around Monza, so he didn't magically put a backmarker car through sheer driving skill alone) - also McLaren screwed up Hamilton's Q2 by sending him out on the wrong tyres so he was not in Q3 - Vettel's pole was still very impressive. He beat Kovalainen and the two Ferraris to pole, after only a year of F1 championship experience in a midfield car.

Max, on the other hand, has had 3 years in a Red Bull, which has won races every year and has had tracks where it has been competitive. Of course, the two time the Red Bull was the fastest, he crashed into the barrier (Monaco 2016) and missed Qualifying due to crashing in the barrier in P3 (Monaco 2018) Both times his team mate got pole.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 2:41 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
In a dry qualifying then it's more than likely to go as Max has had the legs on the Ricciardo lately. If it's wet then it's likely going to be a Hamilton pole, although if Red Bull's pace advantage translates in the wet, then it will be closely fought pole between Max and Lewis.

This is the only track that Red Bull are likely to be competitive, so if Max doesn't do it today, Vettel should retain the record. However, I would say that Vettel's record is more impressive, given that although Max is younger than him, he is vastly more experienced in F1 than Vettel was when he got pole in Monza (I mean, that race is probably responsible for his entire success, as I don't think Red Bull had confirmed him for 2009 at that point and I think DC only decided to retire after Vettel got his seat)

While Vettel's pole in Monza is often over exaggerated for how good it was (remember, this was before the FIA tightened the regulations on how much information teams could share, so the Toro Rosso was essentially a Red Bull with a Ferrari engine, so he was driving an Adrian Newey aero package with the second best engine around Monza, so he didn't magically put a backmarker car through sheer driving skill alone) - also McLaren screwed up Hamilton's Q2 by sending him out on the wrong tyres so he was not in Q3 - Vettel's pole was still very impressive. He beat Kovalainen and the two Ferraris to pole, after only a year of F1 championship experience in a midfield car.

Max, on the other hand, has had 3 years in a Red Bull, which has won races every year and has had tracks where it has been competitive. Of course, the two time the Red Bull was the fastest, he crashed into the barrier (Monaco 2016) and missed Qualifying due to crashing in the barrier in P3 (Monaco 2018) Both times his team mate got pole.


Coulthard announced his retirement before the British GP and Vettel was announced in July. Italian GP was in September I assume.

I agree that Vettel's record is more impressive than Verstappen, assuming Verstappen does get pole today.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:09 pm 
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Oh well. In the scheme of things, it does not matter at all. As Seb has said about all his "youngest" titles, 'someone will come along and beat all of them eventually, so they are always fleeting'. But it is about time that Max start racking up poles...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:16 pm 
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Aaaaand he did not get it. Maybe next race...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:14 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
In a dry qualifying then it's more than likely to go as Max has had the legs on the Ricciardo lately. If it's wet then it's likely going to be a Hamilton pole, although if Red Bull's pace advantage translates in the wet, then it will be closely fought pole between Max and Lewis.

This is the only track that Red Bull are likely to be competitive, so if Max doesn't do it today, Vettel should retain the record. However, I would say that Vettel's record is more impressive, given that although Max is younger than him, he is vastly more experienced in F1 than Vettel was when he got pole in Monza (I mean, that race is probably responsible for his entire success, as I don't think Red Bull had confirmed him for 2009 at that point and I think DC only decided to retire after Vettel got his seat)

While Vettel's pole in Monza is often over exaggerated for how good it was (remember, this was before the FIA tightened the regulations on how much information teams could share, so the [color=#FF0000]Toro Rosso was essentially a Red Bull with a Ferrari engine, so he was driving an Adrian Newey aero package with the second best engine around Monza, so he didn't magically put a backmarker car through sheer driving skill alone)
- also McLaren screwed up Hamilton's Q2 by sending him out on the wrong tyres so he was not in Q3 - Vettel's pole was still very impressive. He beat Kovalainen and the two Ferraris to pole, after only a year of F1 championship experience in a midfield car.

Max, on the other hand, has had 3 years in a Red Bull, which has won races every year and has had tracks where it has been competitive. Of course, the two time the Red Bull was the fastest, he crashed into the barrier (Monaco 2016) and missed Qualifying due to crashing in the barrier in P3 (Monaco 2018) Both times his team mate got pole. [/color]


The chassis was the previous years chassis and TR had to put updates on it themselves, so it wasn't like it was a like for like car with the engine just being different, also at that point everyone taught Newey was a washed up designer so lets not get carried away, also the people at TR especially Giorgio Ascanelli will disagree with the Newey aero package.

It was the previous years chassis and he was really that good Vettel that is, esp in the wet races if not for Hamiltons erratic driving as the stewards described it at Japan he would have had a shot at victory as well, also in the wet china he was up there and finished 4th I think so it wasn't a one off.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:22 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
In a dry qualifying then it's more than likely to go as Max has had the legs on the Ricciardo lately. If it's wet then it's likely going to be a Hamilton pole, although if Red Bull's pace advantage translates in the wet, then it will be closely fought pole between Max and Lewis.

This is the only track that Red Bull are likely to be competitive, so if Max doesn't do it today, Vettel should retain the record. However, I would say that Vettel's record is more impressive, given that although Max is younger than him, he is vastly more experienced in F1 than Vettel was when he got pole in Monza (I mean, that race is probably responsible for his entire success, as I don't think Red Bull had confirmed him for 2009 at that point and I think DC only decided to retire after Vettel got his seat)

While Vettel's pole in Monza is often over exaggerated for how good it was (remember, this was before the FIA tightened the regulations on how much information teams could share, so the [color=#FF0000]Toro Rosso was essentially a Red Bull with a Ferrari engine, so he was driving an Adrian Newey aero package with the second best engine around Monza, so he didn't magically put a backmarker car through sheer driving skill alone)
- also McLaren screwed up Hamilton's Q2 by sending him out on the wrong tyres so he was not in Q3 - Vettel's pole was still very impressive. He beat Kovalainen and the two Ferraris to pole, after only a year of F1 championship experience in a midfield car.

Max, on the other hand, has had 3 years in a Red Bull, which has won races every year and has had tracks where it has been competitive. Of course, the two time the Red Bull was the fastest, he crashed into the barrier (Monaco 2016) and missed Qualifying due to crashing in the barrier in P3 (Monaco 2018) Both times his team mate got pole. [/color]


The chassis was the previous years chassis and TR had to put updates on it themselves, so it wasn't like it was a like for like car with the engine just being different, also at that point everyone taught Newey was a washed up designer so lets not get carried away, also the people at TR especially Giorgio Ascanelli will disagree with the Newey aero package.

It was the previous years chassis and he was really that good Vettel that is, esp in the wet races if not for Hamiltons erratic driving as the stewards described it at Japan he would have had a shot at victory as well, also in the wet china he was up there and finished 4th I think so it wasn't a one off.


Behave, absolutely no one with even an ounce of sense has ever described Newey as a 'washed up designer'. Too radical? sure, but washed up, not a word of it. That chassis was not the previous years chassis with no updates either, and the advantage the 'limited' V10 had in the wet around Monza that day need not be understated either. Bourdais put that car on 4th, a result never once threatened again.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:48 pm 
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I find it ironic - and probably very frustrating for Verstappen and his fans - that although Max is leading the qualifying battle pretty decisively, on both occasions this year the Red Bull has been pole capable Ricciardo has beaten him. I don't know what the quali head-to-head during their time together will stand at when it's all over, but the pole head-to-head is going to be 3-0 Ricciardo.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:51 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
In a dry qualifying then it's more than likely to go as Max has had the legs on the Ricciardo lately. If it's wet then it's likely going to be a Hamilton pole, although if Red Bull's pace advantage translates in the wet, then it will be closely fought pole between Max and Lewis.

This is the only track that Red Bull are likely to be competitive, so if Max doesn't do it today, Vettel should retain the record. However, I would say that Vettel's record is more impressive, given that although Max is younger than him, he is vastly more experienced in F1 than Vettel was when he got pole in Monza (I mean, that race is probably responsible for his entire success, as I don't think Red Bull had confirmed him for 2009 at that point and I think DC only decided to retire after Vettel got his seat)

While Vettel's pole in Monza is often over exaggerated for how good it was (remember, this was before the FIA tightened the regulations on how much information teams could share, so the [color=#FF0000]Toro Rosso was essentially a Red Bull with a Ferrari engine, so he was driving an Adrian Newey aero package with the second best engine around Monza, so he didn't magically put a backmarker car through sheer driving skill alone)
- also McLaren screwed up Hamilton's Q2 by sending him out on the wrong tyres so he was not in Q3 - Vettel's pole was still very impressive. He beat Kovalainen and the two Ferraris to pole, after only a year of F1 championship experience in a midfield car.

Max, on the other hand, has had 3 years in a Red Bull, which has won races every year and has had tracks where it has been competitive. Of course, the two time the Red Bull was the fastest, he crashed into the barrier (Monaco 2016) and missed Qualifying due to crashing in the barrier in P3 (Monaco 2018) Both times his team mate got pole. [/color]


The chassis was the previous years chassis and TR had to put updates on it themselves, so it wasn't like it was a like for like car with the engine just being different, also at that point everyone taught Newey was a washed up designer so lets not get carried away, also the people at TR especially Giorgio Ascanelli will disagree with the Newey aero package.

It was the previous years chassis and he was really that good Vettel that is, esp in the wet races if not for Hamiltons erratic driving as the stewards described it at Japan he would have had a shot at victory as well, also in the wet china he was up there and finished 4th I think so it wasn't a one off.


Behave, absolutely no one with even an ounce of sense has ever described Newey as a 'washed up designer'. Too radical? sure, but washed up, not a word of it. That chassis was not the previous years chassis with no updates either, and the advantage the 'limited' V10 had in the wet around Monza that day need not be understated either. Bourdais put that car on 4th, a result never once threatened again.


No one really?

Please go back and watch the season review or ask Alonso.

Also it was V8 in '08

"Bourdais put that car on 4th"

Yes he did but a full second behind Vettel, also beating the other Mclaren Vettel that is.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:00 pm 
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paramex wrote:
Aaaaand he did not get it. Maybe next race...


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:03 pm 
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I'll concede the V8 point, but the fact that Bourdais was in 4th tells you all you need to know about the peculiarities of that qualifying session. I'm not even remotely suggesting that Vettel is somehow slow, or didnt deserve it, but the reality is that the TR on that day was absolutely up there with all the front runners. Vettel didn't drag a Minardi to pole as some would have you believe, he put a car that was capable of pole, on pole, in challenging conditions.

Fantastic result, but not the unicorn that some would want it to be.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:07 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
In a dry qualifying then it's more than likely to go as Max has had the legs on the Ricciardo lately. If it's wet then it's likely going to be a Hamilton pole, although if Red Bull's pace advantage translates in the wet, then it will be closely fought pole between Max and Lewis.

This is the only track that Red Bull are likely to be competitive, so if Max doesn't do it today, Vettel should retain the record. However, I would say that Vettel's record is more impressive, given that although Max is younger than him, he is vastly more experienced in F1 than Vettel was when he got pole in Monza (I mean, that race is probably responsible for his entire success, as I don't think Red Bull had confirmed him for 2009 at that point and I think DC only decided to retire after Vettel got his seat)

While Vettel's pole in Monza is often over exaggerated for how good it was (remember, this was before the FIA tightened the regulations on how much information teams could share, so the [color=#FF0000]Toro Rosso was essentially a Red Bull with a Ferrari engine, so he was driving an Adrian Newey aero package with the second best engine around Monza, so he didn't magically put a backmarker car through sheer driving skill alone)
- also McLaren screwed up Hamilton's Q2 by sending him out on the wrong tyres so he was not in Q3 - Vettel's pole was still very impressive. He beat Kovalainen and the two Ferraris to pole, after only a year of F1 championship experience in a midfield car.

Max, on the other hand, has had 3 years in a Red Bull, which has won races every year and has had tracks where it has been competitive. Of course, the two time the Red Bull was the fastest, he crashed into the barrier (Monaco 2016) and missed Qualifying due to crashing in the barrier in P3 (Monaco 2018) Both times his team mate got pole. [/color]


The chassis was the previous years chassis and TR had to put updates on it themselves, so it wasn't like it was a like for like car with the engine just being different, also at that point everyone taught Newey was a washed up designer so lets not get carried away, also the people at TR especially Giorgio Ascanelli will disagree with the Newey aero package.

It was the previous years chassis and he was really that good Vettel that is, esp in the wet races if not for Hamiltons erratic driving as the stewards described it at Japan he would have had a shot at victory as well, also in the wet china he was up there and finished 4th I think so it wasn't a one off.


You could not be more incorrect. You think Toro Rosso were using the 2007 Red Bull at Monza? What gave you that idea?

Red bull set up a company called something like Red Bull engineering and it provided chassis to both Red Bull and Toro Rosso. Red Bull used a loop hole to supply both teams with the identical components. This loop hole was then closed and from 2010/2011 onward they became separate.

Toro Rosso had the 2008 chassis from race 6 on wards once enough chassis had been made.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:12 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
In a dry qualifying then it's more than likely to go as Max has had the legs on the Ricciardo lately. If it's wet then it's likely going to be a Hamilton pole, although if Red Bull's pace advantage translates in the wet, then it will be closely fought pole between Max and Lewis.

This is the only track that Red Bull are likely to be competitive, so if Max doesn't do it today, Vettel should retain the record. However, I would say that Vettel's record is more impressive, given that although Max is younger than him, he is vastly more experienced in F1 than Vettel was when he got pole in Monza (I mean, that race is probably responsible for his entire success, as I don't think Red Bull had confirmed him for 2009 at that point and I think DC only decided to retire after Vettel got his seat)

While Vettel's pole in Monza is often over exaggerated for how good it was (remember, this was before the FIA tightened the regulations on how much information teams could share, so the [color=#FF0000]Toro Rosso was essentially a Red Bull with a Ferrari engine, so he was driving an Adrian Newey aero package with the second best engine around Monza, so he didn't magically put a backmarker car through sheer driving skill alone)
- also McLaren screwed up Hamilton's Q2 by sending him out on the wrong tyres so he was not in Q3 - Vettel's pole was still very impressive. He beat Kovalainen and the two Ferraris to pole, after only a year of F1 championship experience in a midfield car.

Max, on the other hand, has had 3 years in a Red Bull, which has won races every year and has had tracks where it has been competitive. Of course, the two time the Red Bull was the fastest, he crashed into the barrier (Monaco 2016) and missed Qualifying due to crashing in the barrier in P3 (Monaco 2018) Both times his team mate got pole. [/color]


The chassis was the previous years chassis and TR had to put updates on it themselves, so it wasn't like it was a like for like car with the engine just being different, also at that point everyone taught Newey was a washed up designer so lets not get carried away, also the people at TR especially Giorgio Ascanelli will disagree with the Newey aero package.

It was the previous years chassis and he was really that good Vettel that is, esp in the wet races if not for Hamiltons erratic driving as the stewards described it at Japan he would have had a shot at victory as well, also in the wet china he was up there and finished 4th I think so it wasn't a one off.


You could not be more incorrect. You think Toro Rosso were using the 2007 Red Bull at Monza? What gave you that idea?

Red bull set up a company called something like Red Bull engineering and it provided chassis to both Red Bull and Toro Rosso. Red Bull used a loop hole to supply both teams with the identical components. This loop hole was then closed and from 2010/2011 onward they became separate.

Toro Rosso had the 2008 chassis from race 6 on wards once enough chassis had been made.


Try reading actual articles from then and not wikipedia, or the season review.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:18 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
In a dry qualifying then it's more than likely to go as Max has had the legs on the Ricciardo lately. If it's wet then it's likely going to be a Hamilton pole, although if Red Bull's pace advantage translates in the wet, then it will be closely fought pole between Max and Lewis.

This is the only track that Red Bull are likely to be competitive, so if Max doesn't do it today, Vettel should retain the record. However, I would say that Vettel's record is more impressive, given that although Max is younger than him, he is vastly more experienced in F1 than Vettel was when he got pole in Monza (I mean, that race is probably responsible for his entire success, as I don't think Red Bull had confirmed him for 2009 at that point and I think DC only decided to retire after Vettel got his seat)

While Vettel's pole in Monza is often over exaggerated for how good it was (remember, this was before the FIA tightened the regulations on how much information teams could share, so the [color=#FF0000]Toro Rosso was essentially a Red Bull with a Ferrari engine, so he was driving an Adrian Newey aero package with the second best engine around Monza, so he didn't magically put a backmarker car through sheer driving skill alone)
- also McLaren screwed up Hamilton's Q2 by sending him out on the wrong tyres so he was not in Q3 - Vettel's pole was still very impressive. He beat Kovalainen and the two Ferraris to pole, after only a year of F1 championship experience in a midfield car.

Max, on the other hand, has had 3 years in a Red Bull, which has won races every year and has had tracks where it has been competitive. Of course, the two time the Red Bull was the fastest, he crashed into the barrier (Monaco 2016) and missed Qualifying due to crashing in the barrier in P3 (Monaco 2018) Both times his team mate got pole. [/color]


The chassis was the previous years chassis and TR had to put updates on it themselves, so it wasn't like it was a like for like car with the engine just being different, also at that point everyone taught Newey was a washed up designer so lets not get carried away, also the people at TR especially Giorgio Ascanelli will disagree with the Newey aero package.

It was the previous years chassis and he was really that good Vettel that is, esp in the wet races if not for Hamiltons erratic driving as the stewards described it at Japan he would have had a shot at victory as well, also in the wet china he was up there and finished 4th I think so it wasn't a one off.


Behave, absolutely no one with even an ounce of sense has ever described Newey as a 'washed up designer'. Too radical? sure, but washed up, not a word of it. That chassis was not the previous years chassis with no updates either, and the advantage the 'limited' V10 had in the wet around Monza that day need not be understated either. Bourdais put that car on 4th, a result never once threatened again.


No one really?

Please go back and watch the season review or ask Alonso.

Also it was V8 in '08

"Bourdais put that car on 4th"

Yes he did but a full second behind Vettel, also beating the other Mclaren Vettel that is.


Boardais made an error on his final qualifying lap and spun he was on course for 2nd/3rd before that.

I read an article from a Toro Rosso engineer recently and the reason the car was so good that weekend was because of the brakes, they were the only team that used a certain brand and it kept the tyres a lot warmer than the other teams could. The team only worked this out after the race weekend.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:20 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
In a dry qualifying then it's more than likely to go as Max has had the legs on the Ricciardo lately. If it's wet then it's likely going to be a Hamilton pole, although if Red Bull's pace advantage translates in the wet, then it will be closely fought pole between Max and Lewis.

This is the only track that Red Bull are likely to be competitive, so if Max doesn't do it today, Vettel should retain the record. However, I would say that Vettel's record is more impressive, given that although Max is younger than him, he is vastly more experienced in F1 than Vettel was when he got pole in Monza (I mean, that race is probably responsible for his entire success, as I don't think Red Bull had confirmed him for 2009 at that point and I think DC only decided to retire after Vettel got his seat)

While Vettel's pole in Monza is often over exaggerated for how good it was (remember, this was before the FIA tightened the regulations on how much information teams could share, so the [color=#FF0000]Toro Rosso was essentially a Red Bull with a Ferrari engine, so he was driving an Adrian Newey aero package with the second best engine around Monza, so he didn't magically put a backmarker car through sheer driving skill alone)
- also McLaren screwed up Hamilton's Q2 by sending him out on the wrong tyres so he was not in Q3 - Vettel's pole was still very impressive. He beat Kovalainen and the two Ferraris to pole, after only a year of F1 championship experience in a midfield car.

Max, on the other hand, has had 3 years in a Red Bull, which has won races every year and has had tracks where it has been competitive. Of course, the two time the Red Bull was the fastest, he crashed into the barrier (Monaco 2016) and missed Qualifying due to crashing in the barrier in P3 (Monaco 2018) Both times his team mate got pole. [/color]


The chassis was the previous years chassis and TR had to put updates on it themselves, so it wasn't like it was a like for like car with the engine just being different, also at that point everyone taught Newey was a washed up designer so lets not get carried away, also the people at TR especially Giorgio Ascanelli will disagree with the Newey aero package.

It was the previous years chassis and he was really that good Vettel that is, esp in the wet races if not for Hamiltons erratic driving as the stewards described it at Japan he would have had a shot at victory as well, also in the wet china he was up there and finished 4th I think so it wasn't a one off.


You could not be more incorrect. You think Toro Rosso were using the 2007 Red Bull at Monza? What gave you that idea?

Red bull set up a company called something like Red Bull engineering and it provided chassis to both Red Bull and Toro Rosso. Red Bull used a loop hole to supply both teams with the identical components. This loop hole was then closed and from 2010/2011 onward they became separate.

Toro Rosso had the 2008 chassis from race 6 on wards once enough chassis had been made.


Try reading actual articles from then and not wikipedia, or the season review.


Says the person who says Vettel used the 2007 Red Bull through all of 2008, right... :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:21 pm 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
I'll concede the V8 point, but the fact that Bourdais was in 4th tells you all you need to know about the peculiarities of that qualifying session. I'm not even remotely suggesting that Vettel is somehow slow, or didnt deserve it, but the reality is that the TR on that day was absolutely up there with all the front runners. Vettel didn't drag a Minardi to pole as some would have you believe, he put a car that was capable of pole, on pole, in challenging conditions.

Fantastic result, but not the unicorn that some would want it to be.


He literally dragged a minardi to pole, and it is exactly what it is a unicorn.

I'm sure if you worked for TR then this won't be your response to what happened.



Listen to James Allen's commentary in there.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I'll concede the V8 point, but the fact that Bourdais was in 4th tells you all you need to know about the peculiarities of that qualifying session. I'm not even remotely suggesting that Vettel is somehow slow, or didnt deserve it, but the reality is that the TR on that day was absolutely up there with all the front runners. Vettel didn't drag a Minardi to pole as some would have you believe, he put a car that was capable of pole, on pole, in challenging conditions.

Fantastic result, but not the unicorn that some would want it to be.


He literally dragged a minardi to pole, and it is exactly what it is a unicorn.

I'm sure if you worked for TR then this won't be your response to what happened.



Listen to James Allen's commentary in there.


Hamilton has been doing well to clinch championships in his Tyrell these last few years. Ricciardo likewise, taking pole in his Stewart today.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:24 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I'll concede the V8 point, but the fact that Bourdais was in 4th tells you all you need to know about the peculiarities of that qualifying session. I'm not even remotely suggesting that Vettel is somehow slow, or didnt deserve it, but the reality is that the TR on that day was absolutely up there with all the front runners. Vettel didn't drag a Minardi to pole as some would have you believe, he put a car that was capable of pole, on pole, in challenging conditions.

Fantastic result, but not the unicorn that some would want it to be.


He literally dragged a minardi to pole, and it is exactly what it is a unicorn.

I'm sure if you worked for TR then this won't be your response to what happened.



Listen to James Allen's commentary in there.

The car was designed by Adrian Newey and the sister car qualified 4th but stalled on the grid.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:25 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
In a dry qualifying then it's more than likely to go as Max has had the legs on the Ricciardo lately. If it's wet then it's likely going to be a Hamilton pole, although if Red Bull's pace advantage translates in the wet, then it will be closely fought pole between Max and Lewis.

This is the only track that Red Bull are likely to be competitive, so if Max doesn't do it today, Vettel should retain the record. However, I would say that Vettel's record is more impressive, given that although Max is younger than him, he is vastly more experienced in F1 than Vettel was when he got pole in Monza (I mean, that race is probably responsible for his entire success, as I don't think Red Bull had confirmed him for 2009 at that point and I think DC only decided to retire after Vettel got his seat)

While Vettel's pole in Monza is often over exaggerated for how good it was (remember, this was before the FIA tightened the regulations on how much information teams could share, so the [color=#FF0000]Toro Rosso was essentially a Red Bull with a Ferrari engine, so he was driving an Adrian Newey aero package with the second best engine around Monza, so he didn't magically put a backmarker car through sheer driving skill alone)
- also McLaren screwed up Hamilton's Q2 by sending him out on the wrong tyres so he was not in Q3 - Vettel's pole was still very impressive. He beat Kovalainen and the two Ferraris to pole, after only a year of F1 championship experience in a midfield car.

Max, on the other hand, has had 3 years in a Red Bull, which has won races every year and has had tracks where it has been competitive. Of course, the two time the Red Bull was the fastest, he crashed into the barrier (Monaco 2016) and missed Qualifying due to crashing in the barrier in P3 (Monaco 2018) Both times his team mate got pole. [/color]


The chassis was the previous years chassis and TR had to put updates on it themselves, so it wasn't like it was a like for like car with the engine just being different, also at that point everyone taught Newey was a washed up designer so lets not get carried away, also the people at TR especially Giorgio Ascanelli will disagree with the Newey aero package.

It was the previous years chassis and he was really that good Vettel that is, esp in the wet races if not for Hamiltons erratic driving as the stewards described it at Japan he would have had a shot at victory as well, also in the wet china he was up there and finished 4th I think so it wasn't a one off.


You could not be more incorrect. You think Toro Rosso were using the 2007 Red Bull at Monza? What gave you that idea?

Red bull set up a company called something like Red Bull engineering and it provided chassis to both Red Bull and Toro Rosso. Red Bull used a loop hole to supply both teams with the identical components. This loop hole was then closed and from 2010/2011 onward they became separate.

Toro Rosso had the 2008 chassis from race 6 on wards once enough chassis had been made.


Try reading actual articles from then and not wikipedia, or the season review.


Says the person who says Vettel used the 2007 Red Bull through all of 2008, right... :lol:

Indeed such lack of knowledge.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:32 pm 
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Max: “The whole qualifying was crap."

The Dutchman was fuming when he vented to reporters immediately after the race, “The whole qualifying was crap, we had the same problems as FP2, the engine braking is not like I wanted and rear locking in the car. We tried to make the best of it, I thought we had enough but it’s still good to be second.”


Just keep munching those sour grapes there Maxi!! :lol:

Congrats to Danny Ricci!!!! :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I'll concede the V8 point, but the fact that Bourdais was in 4th tells you all you need to know about the peculiarities of that qualifying session. I'm not even remotely suggesting that Vettel is somehow slow, or didnt deserve it, but the reality is that the TR on that day was absolutely up there with all the front runners. Vettel didn't drag a Minardi to pole as some would have you believe, he put a car that was capable of pole, on pole, in challenging conditions.

Fantastic result, but not the unicorn that some would want it to be.


He literally dragged a minardi to pole, and it is exactly what it is a unicorn.

I'm sure if you worked for TR then this won't be your response to what happened.



Listen to James Allen's commentary in there.

The car was designed by Adrian Newey and the sister car qualified 4th but stalled on the grid.


1 second behind Vettel.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:34 pm 
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Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I'll concede the V8 point, but the fact that Bourdais was in 4th tells you all you need to know about the peculiarities of that qualifying session. I'm not even remotely suggesting that Vettel is somehow slow, or didnt deserve it, but the reality is that the TR on that day was absolutely up there with all the front runners. Vettel didn't drag a Minardi to pole as some would have you believe, he put a car that was capable of pole, on pole, in challenging conditions.

Fantastic result, but not the unicorn that some would want it to be.


He literally dragged a minardi to pole, and it is exactly what it is a unicorn.

I'm sure if you worked for TR then this won't be your response to what happened.



Listen to James Allen's commentary in there.


Hamilton has been doing well to clinch championships in his Tyrell these last few years. Ricciardo likewise, taking pole in his Stewart today.


Well if you want to be Obtuse why not?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:49 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I'll concede the V8 point, but the fact that Bourdais was in 4th tells you all you need to know about the peculiarities of that qualifying session. I'm not even remotely suggesting that Vettel is somehow slow, or didnt deserve it, but the reality is that the TR on that day was absolutely up there with all the front runners. Vettel didn't drag a Minardi to pole as some would have you believe, he put a car that was capable of pole, on pole, in challenging conditions.

Fantastic result, but not the unicorn that some would want it to be.


He literally dragged a minardi to pole, and it is exactly what it is a unicorn.

I'm sure if you worked for TR then this won't be your response to what happened.



Listen to James Allen's commentary in there.

The car was designed by Adrian Newey and the sister car qualified 4th but stalled on the grid.


1 second behind Vettel.

Race fuelled qualifying so you can't be sure of the actual gap, but the fact he qualified 4th says even more about the car, if it was all Vettel then Vettel should be doing better in the wet than he has been doing for most of the last decade.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:51 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Max: “The whole qualifying was crap."

The Dutchman was fuming when he vented to reporters immediately after the race, “The whole qualifying was crap, we had the same problems as FP2, the engine braking is not like I wanted and rear locking in the car. We tried to make the best of it, I thought we had enough but it’s still good to be second.”


Just keep munching those sour grapes there Maxi!! :lol:

Congrats to Danny Ricci!!!! :thumbup:

He tends to be quite honest about things like that but obviously it doesn't come across too well and lacks some humility.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:00 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
In a dry qualifying then it's more than likely to go as Max has had the legs on the Ricciardo lately. If it's wet then it's likely going to be a Hamilton pole, although if Red Bull's pace advantage translates in the wet, then it will be closely fought pole between Max and Lewis.

This is the only track that Red Bull are likely to be competitive, so if Max doesn't do it today, Vettel should retain the record. However, I would say that Vettel's record is more impressive, given that although Max is younger than him, he is vastly more experienced in F1 than Vettel was when he got pole in Monza (I mean, that race is probably responsible for his entire success, as I don't think Red Bull had confirmed him for 2009 at that point and I think DC only decided to retire after Vettel got his seat)

While Vettel's pole in Monza is often over exaggerated for how good it was (remember, this was before the FIA tightened the regulations on how much information teams could share, so the [color=#FF0000]Toro Rosso was essentially a Red Bull with a Ferrari engine, so he was driving an Adrian Newey aero package with the second best engine around Monza, so he didn't magically put a backmarker car through sheer driving skill alone)
- also McLaren screwed up Hamilton's Q2 by sending him out on the wrong tyres so he was not in Q3 - Vettel's pole was still very impressive. He beat Kovalainen and the two Ferraris to pole, after only a year of F1 championship experience in a midfield car.

Max, on the other hand, has had 3 years in a Red Bull, which has won races every year and has had tracks where it has been competitive. Of course, the two time the Red Bull was the fastest, he crashed into the barrier (Monaco 2016) and missed Qualifying due to crashing in the barrier in P3 (Monaco 2018) Both times his team mate got pole. [/color]


The chassis was the previous years chassis and TR had to put updates on it themselves, so it wasn't like it was a like for like car with the engine just being different, also at that point everyone taught Newey was a washed up designer so lets not get carried away, also the people at TR especially Giorgio Ascanelli will disagree with the Newey aero package.

It was the previous years chassis and he was really that good Vettel that is, esp in the wet races if not for Hamiltons erratic driving as the stewards described it at Japan he would have had a shot at victory as well, also in the wet china he was up there and finished 4th I think so it wasn't a one off.

I think you are missing the point of my post, the central premise of which was "Vettel's record was more impressive than if Verstappen took it from him"

Vettel's pole was impressive, I have never denied that. However, in properly assessing his performance relative to Verstappen it is important to properly assess the situation. The Toro Rosso was a good car on that day, it wasn't a backmarker - even without Vettel's win, Toro Rosso would have had the same number of points as Red Bull that season, which made it a solid midfield runner. My point is that in a year at Red Bull, Vettel got one slim shot at pole and converted it, compared to Verstappen's 0 from 3, in a car with much better chances.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:12 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Johnson wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I'll concede the V8 point, but the fact that Bourdais was in 4th tells you all you need to know about the peculiarities of that qualifying session. I'm not even remotely suggesting that Vettel is somehow slow, or didnt deserve it, but the reality is that the TR on that day was absolutely up there with all the front runners. Vettel didn't drag a Minardi to pole as some would have you believe, he put a car that was capable of pole, on pole, in challenging conditions.

Fantastic result, but not the unicorn that some would want it to be.


He literally dragged a minardi to pole, and it is exactly what it is a unicorn.

I'm sure if you worked for TR then this won't be your response to what happened.



Listen to James Allen's commentary in there.


Hamilton has been doing well to clinch championships in his Tyrell these last few years. Ricciardo likewise, taking pole in his Stewart today.


Well if you want to be Obtuse why not?


And you were being literal right?


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Max: “The whole qualifying was crap."

The Dutchman was fuming when he vented to reporters immediately after the race, “The whole qualifying was crap, we had the same problems as FP2, the engine braking is not like I wanted and rear locking in the car. We tried to make the best of it, I thought we had enough but it’s still good to be second.”


Just keep munching those sour grapes there Maxi!! :lol:

Congrats to Danny Ricci!!!! :thumbup:

He tends to be quite honest about things like that but obviously it doesn't come across too well and lacks some humility.


This was exactly my thoughts too. Faster drivers do lose because of issues, why does that have to be sour grapes if they are honest and let the world know that. Ricciardo hasn't looked capable of beating Verstappen over 1 lap of late.

I was happy to see Ricciardo on pole and gave a big cheer when he pulled the lap but in reality I don't see him beating Verstappen in a clean fight. When I gave the cheer, I thought - he is back - but its just a * win for me.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:35 pm 
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All this talk about dismissing Vettel’s pole at Monza 2008 to a “Newey car with Ferrari engine” is so incredibly misleading and dishonest.

- Red Bull was a midfield team in 2008 with a bang average chassis. The phrase “Newey chassis” by itself is meaningless. The MP4/18 was also a Newey chassis.

- The differences in engine performance during the V8 era were very minimal, nothing like what we have seen in the hybrid era. In fact, Renault won the majority of championships in that era, so I seriously question if the Renault V8 was inferior to the Ferrari V8 at all.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 10:38 pm 
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Mort Canard wrote:
Max: “The whole qualifying was crap."

The Dutchman was fuming when he vented to reporters immediately after the race, “The whole qualifying was crap, we had the same problems as FP2, the engine braking is not like I wanted and rear locking in the car. We tried to make the best of it, I thought we had enough but it’s still good to be second.”


Just keep munching those sour grapes there Maxi!! :lol:

Congrats to Danny Ricci!!!! :thumbup:


:lol: :lol:
This guy sounds so arrogant

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 12:42 am 
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Rockie wrote:

He literally dragged a minardi to pole, and it is exactly what it is a unicorn.


:-(( :-((

Is "literally" the most misused word of this millennium or what?

I mean, I literally killed myself over Rockies use of the word in that post.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:14 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
All this talk about dismissing Vettel’s pole at Monza 2008 to a “Newey car with Ferrari engine” is so incredibly misleading and dishonest.

- Red Bull was a midfield team in 2008 with a bang average chassis. The phrase “Newey chassis” by itself is meaningless. The MP4/18 was also a Newey chassis.

- The differences in engine performance during the V8 era were very minimal, nothing like what we have seen in the hybrid era. In fact, Renault won the majority of championships in that era, so I seriously question if the Renault V8 was inferior to the Ferrari V8 at all.

I never claimed that the Toro Rosso or Red Bull were front running cars in 2008, I said they were not back markers as the romanticised version of Vettel's pole lap is that he put a Minardi on pole - which is not the case. I certainly never dismissed his pole, it was an incredible achievement, one of the best poles of the last 20 years, but it wasn't superhuman, or some magical fairytale that it is often portrayed as, and when comparing his record to Max's (which is the point of this thread, as it's Vettel's record he's taking) it's important to look at them analytically, not with the superhype of the media retrospectives.

Adrian Newey switched Red Bull's Ferrari engine supply to Toro Rosso because the Renault engine had better packaging, despite having lower power output, making it better for the vast majority of circuits, however Monza is the most extreme power circuit on the calendar so one that suited the Toro Rosso more than the Red Bull. The Renault engine did have a significantly lower power output to the Ferrari and Mercedes engines (not to the extent we see in the current era, but certainly a noticeable one) - however the Renault engine was superior to both the Ferrari and Mercedes engines in terms of fuel economy meaning it could start the races with 10% less fuel. This is why Vettel was much faster at the start of races, able to build his cushion, in the 2010-2013 seasons, but the pace advantage dropped off through the race.

Anyway, this is in danger of going wildly off topic, and quite frankly I'm stunned at how a pro Vettel post I made has been jumped upon and made out to be an anti Vettel post.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 1:33 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Mort Canard wrote:
Max: “The whole qualifying was crap."

The Dutchman was fuming when he vented to reporters immediately after the race, “The whole qualifying was crap, we had the same problems as FP2, the engine braking is not like I wanted and rear locking in the car. We tried to make the best of it, I thought we had enough but it’s still good to be second.”


Just keep munching those sour grapes there Maxi!! :lol:

Congrats to Danny Ricci!!!! :thumbup:

He tends to be quite honest about things like that but obviously it doesn't come across too well and lacks some humility.


Ya think??? :lol:

As long as Jos is his personal manager and mentor I don't see that changing. The nut doesn't fall very far from the tree. :nod:

There are times I like the kid, but more often I wish they''d ship him off to Nascar.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:00 am 
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The Newey car filled 3 of the first 4 grid slots, it clearly wasn’t a bang average car that weekend. Heikki in the Mclaren that was great in the wet was the only car in with them.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 3:35 am 
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I can't help but notice that the number of 'No' votes have gone up since qualifying ended... 8)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:20 am 
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I'm hoping Daniel wins tomorrow after Max's performance today. His arrogance disappoints me!......


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 4:47 am 
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I think his best and only chance was today. No way I see a redbull on pole at Abu Dhabi or Brazil, even if it's wet. He had it, but supposedly the PU started misbehaving for him.
Strange, as he has dominated Ricc in quali all year, but when he has gotten the chance to get pole he has faltered on both occasions.


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