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Raikkonen
Go - Ferrari need someone closer to Vettel 61%  61%  [ 31 ]
Stay - He's the perfect No 2 22%  22%  [ 11 ]
Stay - in F1, but not in a Ferrari 18%  18%  [ 9 ]
Total votes : 51
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:45 pm 
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Following Brundle honest assessment, what do you think? Raikkkonen has looked closer to Vettel this year, but for whatever the reasons the results just aren't there when the flag drops on Sunday. The Ferrari is (arguably) the best car and Raikkonen has huge experience . The DNF's account for some of the pts deficit but to have 3 drivers in the WDC between you and your teammate - at that level - is pretty bad. But maybe it's closer than it appears

Av pos when finished (WDC order)

VET: 3.0
HAM: 2.7
BOT: 3.5
RIC: 3.0
RAI: 3.6

So really you've got Vettel , Hamilton and Ricciardo battling it out with Bottas and Raikkonen close behind.

The pts table makes things look possibly worse than they are. Just over half Vettels tally, but remember when you're finishing in the top 4 a lot, a place can mean a big points diff. First to third is 10 pts diff alone and that soon racks up.

So who, honestly would be doing a better job? And if you think Raikkonen should go, who do you think should replace him?

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:03 pm 
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I think Kimi was poor in Canada, but before that he's not been too bad, so I'm wary of making an emotional call on the strength of a single race. It's only the second time he's finished off the podium, to be fair to him.

The options have me torn. I'd say stay unless Ferrari grow a pair and put Leclerc or even Ricciardo in instead. But failing that, keep him on. But he's not the perfect number 2!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:07 pm 
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They ought to grab one of the Red Bull boys not sure which, maybe Leclerc could be an option as well. Though I doubt Seb would welcome such a challange.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
I think Kimi was poor in Canada, but before that he's not been too bad, so I'm wary of making an emotional call on the strength of a single race. It's only the second time he's finished off the podium, to be fair to him.

The options have me torn. I'd say stay unless Ferrari grow a pair and put Leclerc or even Ricciardo in instead. But failing that, keep him on. But he's not the perfect number 2!


It's not based on the last race though is it? He's not really been good enough for a long time bar the odd occasion.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:19 pm 
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The problem with Kimi is that it's not just a pure lack of pace. Every time he looks decent in quali he makes a mistake, he looks asleep at restarts, he hasn't gained a position off the start for 27 races, he's the easiest of the top drivers to overtake and rarely looks interested in overtaking anyone.

I don't think the midfield drivers like Perez or Hulk would be hugely faster but they would at least try and be competitive. So yes if I was Ferrari and wanted a number two for Vettel I would go for Perez.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:30 pm 
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Agree with mikey I'm afraid. Time to move on and Perez has earned another crack at a top team so he'd be my shout assuming Dan is a not an option.

Leclerc is making it tricky though, he's handling everything with a composure that's very impressive, doesn't really look like someone that'll be that much of a risk as he doesn't seem impetuous or overly aggressive in his actions so you can be more confident he won't throw away points if you were to give him the chance.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:36 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Agree with mikey I'm afraid. Time to move on and Perez has earned another crack at a top team so he'd be my shout assuming Dan is a not an option.

Leclerc is making it tricky though, he's handling everything with a composure that's very impressive, doesn't really look like someone that'll be that much of a risk as he doesn't seem impetuous or overly aggressive in his actions so you can be more confident he won't throw away points if you were to give him the chance.


It's so frustrating watching Kimi do the bear minimum for years when so many of this generation of drivers have been shut out of top drives.

I'd park Leclerc at Haas for one or two seasons. He's only going to improve.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 5:55 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The problem with Kimi is that it's not just a pure lack of pace. Every time he looks decent in quali he makes a mistake, he looks asleep at restarts, he hasn't gained a position off the start for 27 races, he's the easiest of the top drivers to overtake and rarely looks interested in overtaking anyone.

I don't think the midfield drivers like Perez or Hulk would be hugely faster but they would at least try and be competitive. So yes if I was Ferrari and wanted a number two for Vettel I would go for Perez.

yeah I'd have to concede you have a point. I guess what I was trying to say was that I'd like Ferrari to make an exciting choice, rather than take on someone I don't see as a significant upgrade. I'm not too excited by Perez. But Kimi consistently fails to make an impact, it's true


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:06 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The problem with Kimi is that it's not just a pure lack of pace. Every time he looks decent in quali he makes a mistake, he looks asleep at restarts, he hasn't gained a position off the start for 27 races, he's the easiest of the top drivers to overtake and rarely looks interested in overtaking anyone.

I don't think the midfield drivers like Perez or Hulk would be hugely faster but they would at least try and be competitive. So yes if I was Ferrari and wanted a number two for Vettel I would go for Perez.

yeah I'd have to concede you have a point. I guess what I was trying to say was that I'd like Ferrari to make an exciting choice, rather than take on someone I don't see as a significant upgrade. I'm not too excited by Perez. But Kimi consistently fails to make an impact, it's true


I'll be honest, I think Leclerc would do a good job now in that Ferrari. I just think Perez or even Hulkenberg really deserve at least a season in a race winning car. I think both are as good as Bottas who is doing a really good job.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:32 pm 
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What's the point of having "top teams" in F1 if the drivers on said teams are not held to any kind of standard? Guys like Perez bring home almost as many podium finishes while driving cars that are a second slower. Kimi seems to produce bare minimum required results at his best and is absolutely nowhere at his worst. He's slow, inconsistent, mistake-prone, inept both at overtaking and defending...what more does he need to do to lose a seat in the most prestigious and desirable team in F1? To have not won a single race these last 4 years is all you really need to learn about him. The 2015 and 2016 cars were quick enough to have a shot at a few wins and the 2017 and 2018 cars are outright title contenders and yet Kimi cannot win even a single race these days.

The question is ridiculous to be honest. Of course he should go but then again, he probably should have been gone after 2015; when he was demolished by Vettel a year after being demolished by Alonso. By that point, Kimi had proven beyond any doubt that he was far from a top-shelf driver. The only reason he is still there is because he allows Ferrari to run things the way that they want to without making much fuss about it. I've always hated the way that Ferrari do things in this regard but I don't expect it to change. I don't think they'll get rid of Kimi unless he chooses to leave.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:42 pm 
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Well, I myself don't rate Kimi highly as a driver, but I still think he gets too much criticism. I still think he is better than a lot out there. From what I can see, there are better drivers that I think could be doing a better job at Ferrari. Those who say Leclerc would be doing a good job already I feel are a bit too optimistic. It won't be often that a young driver moving to a top team very quickly will work out really well. Verstappen happened to be the case. Kvyat didn't.

But if somebody did replace Kimi at Ferrari, I would say it should be someone like Ricciardo. And I do think Kimi would be very good for a team that is struggling. I feel that one reason why Ferrari may have kept him will be because of his feedback. It may be really good because of his experience. We don't know. That would help worse teams develop surely. I don't think he should be kicked out of F1. So glad there is that vote as an option.

But if Ferrari sign him on next year, then I would say he should say. If Ferrari want him, he is clearly good enough for them in some way. Something I notice about Kimi is that although his races are often underwhelming, he virtually never has what I would call terrible races with massive mistakes. He is reasonably solid IMO but nothing special. But for this sort of team, maybe fore some, that makes him look worse than he is. But his pace in qualifying still seems decent. So despite his recent results looking a bit poor, I wouldn't agree with anyone that says he shouldn't be in the sport. Another team, maybe. But Ferrari know more about him than we do.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:58 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I myself don't rate Kimi highly as a driver, but I still think he gets too much criticism. I still think he is better than a lot out there. From what I can see, there are better drivers that I think could be doing a better job at Ferrari. Those who say Leclerc would be doing a good job already I feel are a bit too optimistic. It won't be often that a young driver moving to a top team very quickly will work out really well. Verstappen happened to be the case. Kvyat didn't.

But if somebody did replace Kimi at Ferrari, I would say it should be someone like Ricciardo. And I do think Kimi would be very good for a team that is struggling. I feel that one reason why Ferrari may have kept him will be because of his feedback. It may be really good because of his experience. We don't know. That would help worse teams develop surely. I don't think he should be kicked out of F1. So glad there is that vote as an option.

But if Ferrari sign him on next year, then I would say he should say. If Ferrari want him, he is clearly good enough for them in some way. Something I notice about Kimi is that although his races are often underwhelming, he virtually never has what I would call terrible races with massive mistakes. He is reasonably solid IMO but nothing special. But for this sort of team, maybe fore some, that makes him look worse than he is. But his pace in qualifying still seems decent. So despite his recent results looking a bit poor, I wouldn't agree with anyone that says he shouldn't be in the sport. Another team, maybe. But Ferrari know more about him than we do.


I don't think anyone thinks he's in the bottom 5 drivers but you are judged relative to your opposition and Kimi is the poorest driver in a race winning car. As for your last paragraph, I don't think it's a big achievement to not make any mistakes. It's inevitable if you don't try and overtake, let cars go past without a fight, take a very cautious approach on the first lap and generally drive within yourself that you aren't going to make any big mistakes. When could you?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:46 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The problem with Kimi is that it's not just a pure lack of pace. Every time he looks decent in quali he makes a mistake, he looks asleep at restarts, he hasn't gained a position off the start for 27 races, he's the easiest of the top drivers to overtake and rarely looks interested in overtaking anyone.

I don't think the midfield drivers like Perez or Hulk would be hugely faster but they would at least try and be competitive. So yes if I was Ferrari and wanted a number two for Vettel I would go for Perez.

yeah I'd have to concede you have a point. I guess what I was trying to say was that I'd like Ferrari to make an exciting choice, rather than take on someone I don't see as a significant upgrade. I'm not too excited by Perez. But Kimi consistently fails to make an impact, it's true


I'll be honest, I think Leclerc would do a good job now in that Ferrari. I just think Perez or even Hulkenberg really deserve at least a season in a race winning car. I think both are as good as Bottas who is doing a really good job.

I think they should give it to Leclerc. I don't see why he has to serve an apprenticeship for another year. If he's the real deal he should be able to cope.

I'd be happy with Ricciardo, too, mind. But I'd prefer Leclerc to get a shot


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:56 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I myself don't rate Kimi highly as a driver, but I still think he gets too much criticism. I still think he is better than a lot out there. From what I can see, there are better drivers that I think could be doing a better job at Ferrari. Those who say Leclerc would be doing a good job already I feel are a bit too optimistic. It won't be often that a young driver moving to a top team very quickly will work out really well. Verstappen happened to be the case. Kvyat didn't.

But if somebody did replace Kimi at Ferrari, I would say it should be someone like Ricciardo. And I do think Kimi would be very good for a team that is struggling. I feel that one reason why Ferrari may have kept him will be because of his feedback. It may be really good because of his experience. We don't know. That would help worse teams develop surely. I don't think he should be kicked out of F1. So glad there is that vote as an option.

But if Ferrari sign him on next year, then I would say he should say. If Ferrari want him, he is clearly good enough for them in some way. Something I notice about Kimi is that although his races are often underwhelming, he virtually never has what I would call terrible races with massive mistakes. He is reasonably solid IMO but nothing special. But for this sort of team, maybe fore some, that makes him look worse than he is. But his pace in qualifying still seems decent. So despite his recent results looking a bit poor, I wouldn't agree with anyone that says he shouldn't be in the sport. Another team, maybe. But Ferrari know more about him than we do.


I don't think anyone thinks he's in the bottom 5 drivers but you are judged relative to your opposition and Kimi is the poorest driver in a race winning car. As for your last paragraph, I don't think it's a big achievement to not make any mistakes. It's inevitable if you don't try and overtake, let cars go past without a fight, take a very cautious approach on the first lap and generally drive within yourself that you aren't going to make any big mistakes. When could you?


His qualifying pace shows that he has the ability to be an F1 driver but who’s to say another driver wouldn’t be able to match that pace in this years ferrari..... I agree he is the weakest driver in the top 3 teams but he is the perfect teammate for a guy who doesn’t want the teams focus to be split amongst its drivers. What other driver on the grid will gladly throw away their race when told by the team help Vettel win???? What other driver on the current grid would actually defend 2 attacking cars behind all while slowing down to ensure a your teammate wins ala Hungary 2017??? (Kimi should have won Hungary & Monaco 2017. Ferrari didn’t want him to win)

Kimi is the perfect #2 to a driver challenging for the championship that’s why Vettel and Ferrari keep Kimi there. It’s Ferrari’s fault for managing their team as such. Kimi had missed opportunities for wins that were bad strategy calls from the pit wall so it’s not fair to Kimi as the team itself is against his stats

As fans we want the best drivers on the best teams, fighting for wins!! And even when Kimi retires his replacement will not be another top tier driver imo. Ferrari will not want a clash with Vettel.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Agree with mikey I'm afraid. Time to move on and Perez has earned another crack at a top team so he'd be my shout assuming Dan is a not an option.

Leclerc is making it tricky though, he's handling everything with a composure that's very impressive, doesn't really look like someone that'll be that much of a risk as he doesn't seem impetuous or overly aggressive in his actions so you can be more confident he won't throw away points if you were to give him the chance.


It's so frustrating watching Kimi do the bear minimum for years when so many of this generation of drivers have been shut out of top drives.

I'd park Leclerc at Haas for one or two seasons. He's only going to improve.


It is yeah. Hulk and Perez especially as they seem to have been waiting forever, Hulk's been linked to replace the weak link at Ferrari since about 2012 with Massa, and Perez got his shot but only for one year 5 years ago and in a car no better than his best Force India's. It sucks.

Haas would be good yeah.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:30 pm 
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Mayhem wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I myself don't rate Kimi highly as a driver, but I still think he gets too much criticism. I still think he is better than a lot out there. From what I can see, there are better drivers that I think could be doing a better job at Ferrari. Those who say Leclerc would be doing a good job already I feel are a bit too optimistic. It won't be often that a young driver moving to a top team very quickly will work out really well. Verstappen happened to be the case. Kvyat didn't.

But if somebody did replace Kimi at Ferrari, I would say it should be someone like Ricciardo. And I do think Kimi would be very good for a team that is struggling. I feel that one reason why Ferrari may have kept him will be because of his feedback. It may be really good because of his experience. We don't know. That would help worse teams develop surely. I don't think he should be kicked out of F1. So glad there is that vote as an option.

But if Ferrari sign him on next year, then I would say he should say. If Ferrari want him, he is clearly good enough for them in some way. Something I notice about Kimi is that although his races are often underwhelming, he virtually never has what I would call terrible races with massive mistakes. He is reasonably solid IMO but nothing special. But for this sort of team, maybe fore some, that makes him look worse than he is. But his pace in qualifying still seems decent. So despite his recent results looking a bit poor, I wouldn't agree with anyone that says he shouldn't be in the sport. Another team, maybe. But Ferrari know more about him than we do.


I don't think anyone thinks he's in the bottom 5 drivers but you are judged relative to your opposition and Kimi is the poorest driver in a race winning car. As for your last paragraph, I don't think it's a big achievement to not make any mistakes. It's inevitable if you don't try and overtake, let cars go past without a fight, take a very cautious approach on the first lap and generally drive within yourself that you aren't going to make any big mistakes. When could you?


His qualifying pace shows that he has the ability to be an F1 driver but who’s to say another driver wouldn’t be able to match that pace in this years ferrari..... I agree he is the weakest driver in the top 3 teams but he is the perfect teammate for a guy who doesn’t want the teams focus to be split amongst its drivers. What other driver on the grid will gladly throw away their race when told by the team help Vettel win???? What other driver on the current grid would actually defend 2 attacking cars behind all while slowing down to ensure a your teammate wins ala Hungary 2017??? (Kimi should have won Hungary & Monaco 2017. Ferrari didn’t want him to win)

Kimi is the perfect #2 to a driver challenging for the championship that’s why Vettel and Ferrari keep Kimi there. It’s Ferrari’s fault for managing their team as such. Kimi had missed opportunities for wins that were bad strategy calls from the pit wall so it’s not fair to Kimi as the team itself is against his stats

As fans we want the best drivers on the best teams, fighting for wins!! And even when Kimi retires his replacement will not be another top tier driver imo. Ferrari will not want a clash with Vettel.


Kimi is not the perfect number 2. The perfect number 2 wouldn't have missed an opportunity to take points off any of the other WDC contenders in the last race.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:22 pm 
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Well if Vettel's average finishing position is a solid 3rd and Kimi is 3.6, it's an absurd notion that Kimi is no longer a viable driver for ANY top team. Simple Mathematics don't tell the complete story and armchair experts are quick to write drivers off based on the most minimal of factors. Kimi has at times been just as fast and sometimes faster than Vettel. The reason Kimi doesn't make a ton of places on starts is because he's grown weary of the overzealous divebombers and he's seasoned enough to to know that it's better to survive unscathed and grab as many points as possible rather than push the envelope with these kids and get knocked out at turn 1. And if you pay attention, you'll have noticed that Kimi's wheel to wheel battles are superb and he does the maximum given what his car is capable of. LeClerc may be an excellent young talent but Kimi would beat him soundly so let's stop all the replace Kimi with LeClerc nonsense. Hulk wouldn't Beat Kimi but Perez might, and then by just a hair. In no particular order, the only guys I'd place ahead of Kimi would be Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, and maybe Verstappen (if he can keep it clean) and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he bested at least one of them. Kimi is one hell of a driver and his development prowess is among the best in the sport and when teams address the issues he feels within a car, the car immediately improves and both drivers tend to benefit.

I think he'd be an excellent replacement for Sirotkin and would help Williams figure things out with their car, or perhaps even Ricciardo's seat should he leave, but that would take a wild hair from someone's hind quarters to ever happen. He does have close ties with Red Bull afterall.

Personally I'd love to see Hamilton and Alonso at Williams because it would bring an influx of sponsorship dollars and would move Williams up the grid considerably, and if Hamilton or Bottas leave Mercedes, a game of musical chairs would ensue. Would Ferrari or Mercedes nab Verstappen or Ricciardo, or if they both opt to continue with Red Bull, would Ferrari change their motif and opt to finally take a chance with a younger guy in LeClerc?

Sorry for all the randomness but theirs a huge electrical storm and we're without power ATM and have the time to ponder sill season-esk nonsense. LOL

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:30 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I myself don't rate Kimi highly as a driver, but I still think he gets too much criticism. I still think he is better than a lot out there. From what I can see, there are better drivers that I think could be doing a better job at Ferrari. Those who say Leclerc would be doing a good job already I feel are a bit too optimistic. It won't be often that a young driver moving to a top team very quickly will work out really well. Verstappen happened to be the case. Kvyat didn't.

But if somebody did replace Kimi at Ferrari, I would say it should be someone like Ricciardo. And I do think Kimi would be very good for a team that is struggling. I feel that one reason why Ferrari may have kept him will be because of his feedback. It may be really good because of his experience. We don't know. That would help worse teams develop surely. I don't think he should be kicked out of F1. So glad there is that vote as an option.

But if Ferrari sign him on next year, then I would say he should say. If Ferrari want him, he is clearly good enough for them in some way. Something I notice about Kimi is that although his races are often underwhelming, he virtually never has what I would call terrible races with massive mistakes. He is reasonably solid IMO but nothing special. But for this sort of team, maybe fore some, that makes him look worse than he is. But his pace in qualifying still seems decent. So despite his recent results looking a bit poor, I wouldn't agree with anyone that says he shouldn't be in the sport. Another team, maybe. But Ferrari know more about him than we do.


I don't think anyone thinks he's in the bottom 5 drivers but you are judged relative to your opposition and Kimi is the poorest driver in a race winning car. As for your last paragraph, I don't think it's a big achievement to not make any mistakes. It's inevitable if you don't try and overtake, let cars go past without a fight, take a very cautious approach on the first lap and generally drive within yourself that you aren't going to make any big mistakes. When could you?


His qualifying pace shows that he has the ability to be an F1 driver but who’s to say another driver wouldn’t be able to match that pace in this years ferrari..... I agree he is the weakest driver in the top 3 teams but he is the perfect teammate for a guy who doesn’t want the teams focus to be split amongst its drivers. What other driver on the grid will gladly throw away their race when told by the team help Vettel win???? What other driver on the current grid would actually defend 2 attacking cars behind all while slowing down to ensure a your teammate wins ala Hungary 2017??? (Kimi should have won Hungary & Monaco 2017. Ferrari didn’t want him to win)

Kimi is the perfect #2 to a driver challenging for the championship that’s why Vettel and Ferrari keep Kimi there. It’s Ferrari’s fault for managing their team as such. Kimi had missed opportunities for wins that were bad strategy calls from the pit wall so it’s not fair to Kimi as the team itself is against his stats

As fans we want the best drivers on the best teams, fighting for wins!! And even when Kimi retires his replacement will not be another top tier driver imo. Ferrari will not want a clash with Vettel.


Kimi is not the perfect number 2. The perfect number 2 wouldn't have missed an opportunity to take points off any of the other WDC contenders in the last race.


Him not finishing 2nd in Canada doesn’t negate the fact that he’s the best teammate you can have that won’t challenge/ interfere with your title run.. Kimi isn’t gonna take points from any tier 1 driver.... that’s why he’s a perfect number 2 as he will never be better then the main driver.. if your teammate always takes points from your main rival team, always cleans up when you have an off weekend. That teammate will be your main rival, So within the team you don’t have 1-2 you have two top tier drivers who will not support the other driver (ex Hamilton & Rosberg)

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Last edited by Mayhem on Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:04 pm 
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I like Kimi. To be honest, but his career is over, time for fresh blood in F1. The problem with Ferrari, they only appear to be putting their eggs into one driver and that's Vettel. I hope I'm wrong here. Daniel would not allow Vettel to walk all over him. Not sure about Leclerc as a team mate ?... I really like this kid, but I'm sure Vettel will have the final say about orders...


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:09 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Well if Vettel's average finishing position is a solid 3rd and Kimi is 3.6, it's an absurd notion that Kimi is no longer a viable driver for ANY top team. Simple Mathematics don't tell the complete story and armchair experts are quick to write drivers off based on the most minimal of factors. Kimi has at times been just as fast and sometimes faster than Vettel. The reason Kimi doesn't make a ton of places on starts is because he's grown weary of the overzealous divebombers and he's seasoned enough to to know that it's better to survive unscathed and grab as many points as possible rather than push the envelope with these kids and get knocked out at turn 1. And if you pay attention, you'll have noticed that Kimi's wheel to wheel battles are superb and he does the maximum given what his car is capable of. LeClerc may be an excellent young talent but Kimi would beat him soundly so let's stop all the replace Kimi with LeClerc nonsense. Hulk wouldn't Beat Kimi but Perez might, and then by just a hair. In no particular order, the only guys I'd place ahead of Kimi would be Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, Ricciardo, and maybe Verstappen (if he can keep it clean) and I wouldn't be at all surprised if he bested at least one of them. Kimi is one hell of a driver and his development prowess is among the best in the sport and when teams address the issues he feels within a car, the car immediately improves and both drivers tend to benefit.

I think he'd be an excellent replacement for Sirotkin and would help Williams figure things out with their car, or perhaps even Ricciardo's seat should he leave, but that would take a wild hair from someone's hind quarters to ever happen. He does have close ties with Red Bull afterall.

Personally I'd love to see Hamilton and Alonso at Williams because it would bring an influx of sponsorship dollars and would move Williams up the grid considerably, and if Hamilton or Bottas leave Mercedes, a game of musical chairs would ensue. Would Ferrari or Mercedes nab Verstappen or Ricciardo, or if they both opt to continue with Red Bull, would Ferrari change their motif and opt to finally take a chance with a younger guy in LeClerc?

Sorry for all the randomness but theirs a huge electrical storm and we're without power ATM and have the time to ponder sill season-esk nonsense. LOL

I'm sorry but what do you base the bolded part on? Obviously we haven't had the chance to benchmark Leclerc against anyone proven but why would you assume that Kimi would "beat him soundly"? Kimi couldn't beat the likes of Massa when in the prime of his career and yet you're convinced he could beat a kid who, by the looks of things, is right there with Max as the best F1 drivers under 25? Honestly I'd put my money on the kid to win that matchup if it were to happen today.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:36 pm 
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He's obviously still enjoying his racing - just look at the way his face lights up whenever he is interviewed during a race weekend.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:41 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The problem with Kimi is that it's not just a pure lack of pace. Every time he looks decent in quali he makes a mistake, he looks asleep at restarts, he hasn't gained a position off the start for 27 races, he's the easiest of the top drivers to overtake and rarely looks interested in overtaking anyone.

This is by far my biggest problem with Kimi. He is such a boring driver on track. He’s very predictable and almost never takes any risk.

I would also like to see Hulkenberg or Perez in that second Ferrari seat. I reckon that they would be just as good as Bottas.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:03 am 
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Its so difficult to rate Raikkonen. He came into F1 as an unknown and performed beyond expectation. He was incredible in the McLaren challenging Schumacher and Alonso for the championship (he should've won in 2005 imo) but in the last few years its seems he has not performed as well as one should expect from a former world champion. Is it down to him just simply not being as good as the current crop of drivers? Is it due to his easy tendencies to being unmotivated? I don't know. I like Kimi, I've been a fan of him for as long as I could remember. I like his no BS way of conducting things, no politics, no lies, straight to the point. And if you've seen him drive during his McLaren years, you could see why I have never doubted his abilities as a driver. But at the current age of 38 and a lot of great young drivers waiting in the wings. I do think its time for Kimi to retire. I will definitely miss him when he is gone though. Seeing him driving a McLaren, Alonso driving a Renault, Schumacher and Barrichello in a Ferrari, Montoya in a Williams all racing is what got me into F1. In the same way, seeing Senna, Prost, Mansell and Piquet racing got all of you guys into this sport.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:46 am 
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I have a different view and it's one I think will not be popular. First of all, may I recall the last few years of Graham Hill's career. He was undoubtedly getting slower and his prospects of winning were somewhere between small and atomic sized. But he carried on because he had the resources and backing to do what he loved. They were many voices saying he should quit and make a place available for an up and comer.

I took the rather contrarian view of saying that it is very hard to get to the pinnacle of motor racing. You have to be very dedicated and determined to get there however talented you are naturally. So as long as you are not a hazard to others, it is, in my view, fundamentally your decision as to whether you continue. I disagree (somewhat, I should say, but not vehemently) with the view that you owe it to 'the show' to exit stage left.

So to Kimi, as long as Ferrari is happy to employ him, and as usual, assuming he's not a danger to others, I have no problem with his continued presence at the Scuderia.

For those who are not ancient, like me, the penny finally dropped for Graham Hill - a pugnacious fellow I understand - when he failed to qualify for the 1975 Monaco Grand Prix, a race he'd won five times. Sad.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:53 am 
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Mayhem wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I myself don't rate Kimi highly as a driver, but I still think he gets too much criticism. I still think he is better than a lot out there. From what I can see, there are better drivers that I think could be doing a better job at Ferrari. Those who say Leclerc would be doing a good job already I feel are a bit too optimistic. It won't be often that a young driver moving to a top team very quickly will work out really well. Verstappen happened to be the case. Kvyat didn't.

But if somebody did replace Kimi at Ferrari, I would say it should be someone like Ricciardo. And I do think Kimi would be very good for a team that is struggling. I feel that one reason why Ferrari may have kept him will be because of his feedback. It may be really good because of his experience. We don't know. That would help worse teams develop surely. I don't think he should be kicked out of F1. So glad there is that vote as an option.

But if Ferrari sign him on next year, then I would say he should say. If Ferrari want him, he is clearly good enough for them in some way. Something I notice about Kimi is that although his races are often underwhelming, he virtually never has what I would call terrible races with massive mistakes. He is reasonably solid IMO but nothing special. But for this sort of team, maybe fore some, that makes him look worse than he is. But his pace in qualifying still seems decent. So despite his recent results looking a bit poor, I wouldn't agree with anyone that says he shouldn't be in the sport. Another team, maybe. But Ferrari know more about him than we do.


I don't think anyone thinks he's in the bottom 5 drivers but you are judged relative to your opposition and Kimi is the poorest driver in a race winning car. As for your last paragraph, I don't think it's a big achievement to not make any mistakes. It's inevitable if you don't try and overtake, let cars go past without a fight, take a very cautious approach on the first lap and generally drive within yourself that you aren't going to make any big mistakes. When could you?


His qualifying pace shows that he has the ability to be an F1 driver but who’s to say another driver wouldn’t be able to match that pace in this years ferrari..... I agree he is the weakest driver in the top 3 teams but he is the perfect teammate for a guy who doesn’t want the teams focus to be split amongst its drivers. What other driver on the grid will gladly throw away their race when told by the team help Vettel win???? What other driver on the current grid would actually defend 2 attacking cars behind all while slowing down to ensure a your teammate wins ala Hungary 2017??? (Kimi should have won Hungary & Monaco 2017. Ferrari didn’t want him to win)

Kimi is the perfect #2 to a driver challenging for the championship that’s why Vettel and Ferrari keep Kimi there. It’s Ferrari’s fault for managing their team as such. Kimi had missed opportunities for wins that were bad strategy calls from the pit wall so it’s not fair to Kimi as the team itself is against his stats

As fans we want the best drivers on the best teams, fighting for wins!! And even when Kimi retires his replacement will not be another top tier driver imo. Ferrari will not want a clash with Vettel.


Kimi is not the perfect number 2. The perfect number 2 wouldn't have missed an opportunity to take points off any of the other WDC contenders in the last race.


Him not finishing 2nd in Canada doesn’t negate the fact that he’s the best teammate you can have that won’t challenge/ interfere with your title run.. Kimi isn’t gonna take points from any tier 1 driver.... that’s why he’s a perfect number 2 as he will never be better then the main driver.. if your teammate always takes points from your main rival team, always cleans up when you have an off weekend. That teammate will be your main rival, So within the team you don’t have 1-2 you have two top tier drivers who will not support the other driver (ex Hamilton & Rosberg)


The perfect number 2 does take points off your championship rivals in situation likes Canada. Kimi doesn't, and that's why he's not the perfect number 2.

If the criteria for being the number 2 is just never being as quick as the number 1 then there are a several drivers on the grid who would be slower even that Kimi so he's not even the perfect number two by your criteria. It would be someone like Ericsson or Palmer.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:17 am 
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Mayhem wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Well, I myself don't rate Kimi highly as a driver, but I still think he gets too much criticism. I still think he is better than a lot out there. From what I can see, there are better drivers that I think could be doing a better job at Ferrari. Those who say Leclerc would be doing a good job already I feel are a bit too optimistic. It won't be often that a young driver moving to a top team very quickly will work out really well. Verstappen happened to be the case. Kvyat didn't.

But if somebody did replace Kimi at Ferrari, I would say it should be someone like Ricciardo. And I do think Kimi would be very good for a team that is struggling. I feel that one reason why Ferrari may have kept him will be because of his feedback. It may be really good because of his experience. We don't know. That would help worse teams develop surely. I don't think he should be kicked out of F1. So glad there is that vote as an option.

But if Ferrari sign him on next year, then I would say he should say. If Ferrari want him, he is clearly good enough for them in some way. Something I notice about Kimi is that although his races are often underwhelming, he virtually never has what I would call terrible races with massive mistakes. He is reasonably solid IMO but nothing special. But for this sort of team, maybe fore some, that makes him look worse than he is. But his pace in qualifying still seems decent. So despite his recent results looking a bit poor, I wouldn't agree with anyone that says he shouldn't be in the sport. Another team, maybe. But Ferrari know more about him than we do.


I don't think anyone thinks he's in the bottom 5 drivers but you are judged relative to your opposition and Kimi is the poorest driver in a race winning car. As for your last paragraph, I don't think it's a big achievement to not make any mistakes. It's inevitable if you don't try and overtake, let cars go past without a fight, take a very cautious approach on the first lap and generally drive within yourself that you aren't going to make any big mistakes. When could you?


His qualifying pace shows that he has the ability to be an F1 driver but who’s to say another driver wouldn’t be able to match that pace in this years ferrari..... I agree he is the weakest driver in the top 3 teams but he is the perfect teammate for a guy who doesn’t want the teams focus to be split amongst its drivers. What other driver on the grid will gladly throw away their race when told by the team help Vettel win???? What other driver on the current grid would actually defend 2 attacking cars behind all while slowing down to ensure a your teammate wins ala Hungary 2017??? (Kimi should have won Hungary & Monaco 2017. Ferrari didn’t want him to win)

Kimi is the perfect #2 to a driver challenging for the championship that’s why Vettel and Ferrari keep Kimi there. It’s Ferrari’s fault for managing their team as such. Kimi had missed opportunities for wins that were bad strategy calls from the pit wall so it’s not fair to Kimi as the team itself is against his stats

As fans we want the best drivers on the best teams, fighting for wins!! And even when Kimi retires his replacement will not be another top tier driver imo. Ferrari will not want a clash with Vettel.


Kimi is not the perfect number 2. The perfect number 2 wouldn't have missed an opportunity to take points off any of the other WDC contenders in the last race.


Him not finishing 2nd in Canada doesn’t negate the fact that he’s the best teammate you can have that won’t challenge/ interfere with your title run.. Kimi isn’t gonna take points from any tier 1 driver.... that’s why he’s a perfect number 2 as he will never be better then the main driver.. if your teammate always takes points from your main rival team, always cleans up when you have an off weekend. That teammate will be your main rival, So within the team you don’t have 1-2 you have two top tier drivers who will not support the other driver (ex Hamilton & Rosberg)


From Vettels point of view I suppose he is the perfect team mate but I doubt the same could be said from Ferrari's point of view if they place any value in the WCC.

I said in the Canadian race thread that if Ferrari re-sign Raikonnen for next year then it's obvious they've no interest in winning the WCC, which IIRC, was once their focal point. He finished 4th in a 4 horse race last year and in this years 6 horse race he's only outscoring Verstappen who to date has also has also been less than impressive. His days have come but they're now gone.

While it could be argued that team strategy has maybe cost him a possible win or two and has worked against him more often than not, he just appears to have lost what it takes to consistently be there or there about's and he's definitely not maximising the value of his car.

If Ferrari want to seriously challenge for the WCC then there is only 1 choice and that's to replace Raikonnen with Ricciardo but Ferrari, perhaps more than any other team, subscribes to the #1 & #2 driver philosophy and Ricciardo isn't a #2 driver and it becomes more and more likely with every passing day that the team in red won't be a knockin on Ricciardo's door while Vettel is there.

I think Leclerc, while performing brilliantly, is still a little green for the high pressure responsibility that goes with being a Ferrari driver and could maybe use another season or two settling in to F1 before getting the call up to the top team.

Ferrari could do worse than look at Hulkenberg to be the #2. He's a better driver that Raikonnen now but not on Vettel's level and with him in the team they could launch a challenge for the WCC.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:26 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Mayhem wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

I don't think anyone thinks he's in the bottom 5 drivers but you are judged relative to your opposition and Kimi is the poorest driver in a race winning car. As for your last paragraph, I don't think it's a big achievement to not make any mistakes. It's inevitable if you don't try and overtake, let cars go past without a fight, take a very cautious approach on the first lap and generally drive within yourself that you aren't going to make any big mistakes. When could you?


His qualifying pace shows that he has the ability to be an F1 driver but who’s to say another driver wouldn’t be able to match that pace in this years ferrari..... I agree he is the weakest driver in the top 3 teams but he is the perfect teammate for a guy who doesn’t want the teams focus to be split amongst its drivers. What other driver on the grid will gladly throw away their race when told by the team help Vettel win???? What other driver on the current grid would actually defend 2 attacking cars behind all while slowing down to ensure a your teammate wins ala Hungary 2017??? (Kimi should have won Hungary & Monaco 2017. Ferrari didn’t want him to win)

Kimi is the perfect #2 to a driver challenging for the championship that’s why Vettel and Ferrari keep Kimi there. It’s Ferrari’s fault for managing their team as such. Kimi had missed opportunities for wins that were bad strategy calls from the pit wall so it’s not fair to Kimi as the team itself is against his stats

As fans we want the best drivers on the best teams, fighting for wins!! And even when Kimi retires his replacement will not be another top tier driver imo. Ferrari will not want a clash with Vettel.


Kimi is not the perfect number 2. The perfect number 2 wouldn't have missed an opportunity to take points off any of the other WDC contenders in the last race.


Him not finishing 2nd in Canada doesn’t negate the fact that he’s the best teammate you can have that won’t challenge/ interfere with your title run.. Kimi isn’t gonna take points from any tier 1 driver.... that’s why he’s a perfect number 2 as he will never be better then the main driver.. if your teammate always takes points from your main rival team, always cleans up when you have an off weekend. That teammate will be your main rival, So within the team you don’t have 1-2 you have two top tier drivers who will not support the other driver (ex Hamilton & Rosberg)


The perfect number 2 does take points off your championship rivals in situation likes Canada. Kimi doesn't, and that's why he's not the perfect number 2.

If the criteria for being the number 2 is just never being as quick as the number 1 then there are a several drivers on the grid who would be slower even that Kimi so he's not even the perfect number two by your criteria. It would be someone like Ericsson or Palmer.

One point in Kimi's defence is that Ferrari don't appear to give his strategy any thought and that has also cost him positions in races. More than once on here we've been bewildered . by the choices Ferrari have made for him and at times it's been abundantly clear that his race has been thrown to help Vettel. Other times it looks like they have simply forgotten about him

Things like his almost constant qualifying mistakes are his own, however!


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:43 am 
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Zoue wrote:
One point in Kimi's defence is that Ferrari don't appear to give his strategy any thought and that has also cost him positions in races. More than once on here we've been bewildered . by the choices Ferrari have made for him and at times it's been abundantly clear that his race has been thrown to help Vettel. Other times it looks like they have simply forgotten about him

Things like his almost constant qualifying mistakes are his own, however!


This is very true, although it's not the reason he finished last out of the front race in Canada. I noticed them doing the same thing with Massa in the Alonso years as well. Almost as if there weren't even going to think about Massa's strategy until Alonso was all sorted. There's definitely been occasions where Kimi has received the same treatment.

I feel the need to add a clarification in that although my criticism of Kimi sounds harsh, I don't most of drivers on the grid would be guaranteed to do a better overall job. I'm judging him against his peers at the front. I just wish he'd show a bit of fight or any ind of desire to finish higher than his natural pace will automatically get him.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:55 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
He's obviously still enjoying his racing - just look at the way his face lights up whenever he is interviewed during a race weekend.


:thumbup:

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:57 am 
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CC78AMG wrote:
Its so difficult to rate Raikkonen. He came into F1 as an unknown and performed beyond expectation. He was incredible in the McLaren challenging Schumacher and Alonso for the championship (he should've won in 2005 imo) but in the last few years its seems he has not performed as well as one should expect from a former world champion. Is it down to him just simply not being as good as the current crop of drivers? Is it due to his easy tendencies to being unmotivated? I don't know. I like Kimi, I've been a fan of him for as long as I could remember. I like his no BS way of conducting things, no politics, no lies, straight to the point. And if you've seen him drive during his McLaren years, you could see why I have never doubted his abilities as a driver. But at the current age of 38 and a lot of great young drivers waiting in the wings. I do think its time for Kimi to retire. I will definitely miss him when he is gone though. Seeing him driving a McLaren, Alonso driving a Renault, Schumacher and Barrichello in a Ferrari, Montoya in a Williams all racing is what got me into F1. In the same way, seeing Senna, Prost, Mansell and Piquet racing got all of you guys into this sport.


Great post!! :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:59 am 
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I voted stay. But he does need more support than Ferrari is willing to give their number 2s - provided that is, they know they even have another driver besides the chosen one.
According to Räikkönen himself, it was too difficult to get close to the driver in front in Canada.

I do wish I knew why Räikkönen starts out qualifying among the best, only to drop back by Q3. It happens almost every time.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:06 am 
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Huw wrote:
I have a different view and it's one I think will not be popular. First of all, may I recall the last few years of Graham Hill's career. He was undoubtedly getting slower and his prospects of winning were somewhere between small and atomic sized. But he carried on because he had the resources and backing to do what he loved. They were many voices saying he should quit and make a place available for an up and comer.

I took the rather contrarian view of saying that it is very hard to get to the pinnacle of motor racing. You have to be very dedicated and determined to get there however talented you are naturally. So as long as you are not a hazard to others, it is, in my view, fundamentally your decision as to whether you continue. I disagree (somewhat, I should say, but not vehemently) with the view that you owe it to 'the show' to exit stage left.

So to Kimi, as long as Ferrari is happy to employ him, and as usual, assuming he's not a danger to others, I have no problem with his continued presence at the Scuderia.

For those who are not ancient, like me, the penny finally dropped for Graham Hill - a pugnacious fellow I understand - when he failed to qualify for the 1975 Monaco Grand Prix, a race he'd won five times. Sad.


In the older days, age was not a factor. Todays G-Forces demand much more from a driver...... Sadly, I did not get into the sport till early 80s, after hearing this new kid Nigel Mansell....

Though I was around with Clark, Hill, Stewart, Moss and Hunt back in Britain. Did not follow their success's of the sport back then.

A driver in F1 would today, in most cases could reach 40 till their career is over, if the desire wishes.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:47 am 
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I'd say your poll is a little unfair to Kimi as it doesn't give an option to stay at Ferrari except as a defacto number two.
Whatever your thoughts on him giving all options should be there, otherwise the poll is loaded to your bias whether intentional or not.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:51 am 
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Fiki wrote:
I voted stay. But he does need more support than Ferrari is willing to give their number 2s - provided that is, they know they even have another driver besides the chosen one.
According to Räikkönen himself, it was too difficult to get close to the driver in front in Canada.

I do wish I knew why Räikkönen starts out qualifying among the best, only to drop back by Q3. It happens almost every time.


It's not a mystery. Just watch his laps. Every time he looks competitive in quali he blows his final Q3 lap.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:23 am 
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Noni wrote:
I like Kimi. To be honest, but his career is over, time for fresh blood in F1. The problem with Ferrari, they only appear to be putting their eggs into one driver and that's Vettel. I hope I'm wrong here. Daniel would not allow Vettel to walk all over him. Not sure about Leclerc as a team mate ?... I really like this kid, but I'm sure Vettel will have the final say about orders...


Right now Max is walking all over Daniel, as when Max keeps it clean he beats him.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:26 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I voted stay. But he does need more support than Ferrari is willing to give their number 2s - provided that is, they know they even have another driver besides the chosen one.
According to Räikkönen himself, it was too difficult to get close to the driver in front in Canada.

I do wish I knew why Räikkönen starts out qualifying among the best, only to drop back by Q3. It happens almost every time.


It's not a mystery. Just watch his laps. Every time he looks competitive in quali he blows his final Q3 lap.


Have just looked at it that he knows what his team mate can do thus he can't leave anything on the table, hence the mistakes.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:52 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Noni wrote:
I like Kimi. To be honest, but his career is over, time for fresh blood in F1. The problem with Ferrari, they only appear to be putting their eggs into one driver and that's Vettel. I hope I'm wrong here. Daniel would not allow Vettel to walk all over him. Not sure about Leclerc as a team mate ?... I really like this kid, but I'm sure Vettel will have the final say about orders...


Right now Max is walking all over Daniel, as when Max keeps it clean he beats him.


Yeah but the sample size is so small this year because Max can't keep away from guardrails or other cars that it's hardly an accurate guaging of who's the superior driver in 2018.

Unlike Verstappen though, Ricciardo so far can be relied on to actually not screw up his own or other peoples races and finish it in a good position.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:10 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
One point in Kimi's defence is that Ferrari don't appear to give his strategy any thought and that has also cost him positions in races. More than once on here we've been bewildered . by the choices Ferrari have made for him and at times it's been abundantly clear that his race has been thrown to help Vettel. Other times it looks like they have simply forgotten about him

Things like his almost constant qualifying mistakes are his own, however!


This is very true, although it's not the reason he finished last out of the front race in Canada. I noticed them doing the same thing with Massa in the Alonso years as well. Almost as if there weren't even going to think about Massa's strategy until Alonso was all sorted. There's definitely been occasions where Kimi has received the same treatment.

I feel the need to add a clarification in that although my criticism of Kimi sounds harsh, I don't most of drivers on the grid would be guaranteed to do a better overall job. I'm judging him against his peers at the front. I just wish he'd show a bit of fight or any ind of desire to finish higher than his natural pace will automatically get him.

yeah I'm in complete agreement. He's shown he can still be quick over one lap but that's pretty worthless when he chokes at the critical moment. And I have noticed he has a tendency to settle, particularly towards the end of the race. I also wish he had more fight in him


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:22 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Noni wrote:
I like Kimi. To be honest, but his career is over, time for fresh blood in F1. The problem with Ferrari, they only appear to be putting their eggs into one driver and that's Vettel. I hope I'm wrong here. Daniel would not allow Vettel to walk all over him. Not sure about Leclerc as a team mate ?... I really like this kid, but I'm sure Vettel will have the final say about orders...


Right now Max is walking all over Daniel, as when Max keeps it clean he beats him.


Yeah but the sample size is so small this year because Max can't keep away from guardrails or other cars that it's hardly an accurate guaging of who's the superior driver in 2018.

Unlike Verstappen though, Ricciardo so far can be relied on to actually not screw up his own or other peoples races and finish it in a good position.


I agree!! Well put :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:43 pm 
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DOLOMITE, we need another two options to vote for. The real reason for lots of votes.

Stay because I like him
Go because I don't like him.


TBH though, I think everyone likes Kimi


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