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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:53 am 
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In probably the 2nd worst kept secret of Mercedes' winter, Allison has signed for them:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/38992303

I'm not sure that is an improvement over Paddy Lowe?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:20 am 
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Herb wrote:
In probably the 2nd worst kept secret of Mercedes' winter, Allison has signed for them:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/38992303

I'm not sure that is an improvement over Paddy Lowe?

Well I'm not sure exactly what Paddy does, his skill set is as an electronics engineer whereas Allison is more involved in the actual design of the car methinks?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:36 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Herb wrote:
In probably the 2nd worst kept secret of Mercedes' winter, Allison has signed for them:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/38992303

I'm not sure that is an improvement over Paddy Lowe?

Well I'm not sure exactly what Paddy does, his skill set is as an electronics engineer whereas Allison is more involved in the actual design of the car methinks?


I'm not sure at that level your exact technical specialism is as important.

Craig Scarborough seems to think it's a slightly lesser role:



But I'm not sure if that is just based on the Job Title

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:43 pm 
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Herb wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Herb wrote:
In probably the 2nd worst kept secret of Mercedes' winter, Allison has signed for them:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/38992303

I'm not sure that is an improvement over Paddy Lowe?

Well I'm not sure exactly what Paddy does, his skill set is as an electronics engineer whereas Allison is more involved in the actual design of the car methinks?


I'm not sure at that level your exact technical specialism is as important.

Craig Scarborough seems to think it's a slightly lesser role:



But I'm not sure if that is just based on the Job Title

Maybe that's what Paddy demanded as he seemed to want to run the job lot, wasn't Allison credited a lot with the performance of the Lotus in 2012 and 2013 and hence got the Ferrari job, that's why I was thinking he is more involved with the design than the likes of Lowe?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:46 pm 
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My god, I read "Alonso signs for Mercedes"...

I should have known that it couldn't be true, the internet is still working!


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 1:52 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
My god, I read "Alonso signs for Mercedes"...

I should have known that it couldn't be true, the internet is still working!

:lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Herb wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well I'm not sure exactly what Paddy does, his skill set is as an electronics engineer whereas Allison is more involved in the actual design of the car methinks?


I'm not sure at that level your exact technical specialism is as important.

Craig Scarborough seems to think it's a slightly lesser role:



But I'm not sure if that is just based on the Job Title

Maybe that's what Paddy demanded as he seemed to want to run the job lot, wasn't Allison credited a lot with the performance of the Lotus in 2012 and 2013 and hence got the Ferrari job, that's why I was thinking he is more involved with the design than the likes of Lowe?


It has been said Allison will report directly to Toto, so below him on the hierarchy, whereas weren't Paddy Lowe and Toto pretty much equals, just in-charge of different areas of the team? So that would confirm that it is a lesser role.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:13 pm 
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Here's all I know; Paddy has been very successful over the last half decade or so. He designed the last really great McLaren for the 2012 season and his time with Mercedes was pure and utter domination. Allison has not had that level of success recently so this is definitely something to keep an eye on. As has been pointed out, they will not have identical roles but it's still something to watch.

I think Mercedes will be very strong this year. The only question is; will they have legitimate competition?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 4:58 pm 
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Just for interest, what is the first worst :D


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:41 pm 
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moby wrote:
Just for interest, what is the first worst :D


Bottas :)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:54 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Herb wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well I'm not sure exactly what Paddy does, his skill set is as an electronics engineer whereas Allison is more involved in the actual design of the car methinks?


I'm not sure at that level your exact technical specialism is as important.

Craig Scarborough seems to think it's a slightly lesser role:



But I'm not sure if that is just based on the Job Title

Maybe that's what Paddy demanded as he seemed to want to run the job lot, wasn't Allison credited a lot with the performance of the Lotus in 2012 and 2013 and hence got the Ferrari job, that's why I was thinking he is more involved with the design than the likes of Lowe?


It has been said Allison will report directly to Toto, so below him on the hierarchy, whereas weren't Paddy Lowe and Toto pretty much equals, just in-charge of different areas of the team? So that would confirm that it is a lesser role.

With that in mind does Lowe's departure suggest a bit of a power grab from Toto rather than a move that was beneficial to the team?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:45 pm 
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Jenson's Understeer wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Herb wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well I'm not sure exactly what Paddy does, his skill set is as an electronics engineer whereas Allison is more involved in the actual design of the car methinks?


I'm not sure at that level your exact technical specialism is as important.

Craig Scarborough seems to think it's a slightly lesser role:



But I'm not sure if that is just based on the Job Title

Maybe that's what Paddy demanded as he seemed to want to run the job lot, wasn't Allison credited a lot with the performance of the Lotus in 2012 and 2013 and hence got the Ferrari job, that's why I was thinking he is more involved with the design than the likes of Lowe?


It has been said Allison will report directly to Toto, so below him on the hierarchy, whereas weren't Paddy Lowe and Toto pretty much equals, just in-charge of different areas of the team? So that would confirm that it is a lesser role.

Yes in a higher management capacity, but how involved was Paddy in the design direction of the car, like I said his expertise is in electronics?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:49 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Here's all I know; Paddy has been very successful over the last half decade or so. He designed the last really great McLaren for the 2012 season and his time with Mercedes was pure and utter domination. Allison has not had that level of success recently so this is definitely something to keep an eye on. As has been pointed out, they will not have identical roles but it's still something to watch.

I think Mercedes will be very strong this year. The only question is; will they have legitimate competition?

Has Paddy Lowe actually ever designed a racing car?

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:58 pm 
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Herb wrote:
moby wrote:
Just for interest, what is the first worst :D


Bottas :)



I only asked :]


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:37 am 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Here's all I know; Paddy has been very successful over the last half decade or so. He designed the last really great McLaren for the 2012 season and his time with Mercedes was pure and utter domination. Allison has not had that level of success recently so this is definitely something to keep an eye on. As has been pointed out, they will not have identical roles but it's still something to watch.

I think Mercedes will be very strong this year. The only question is; will they have legitimate competition?

Has Paddy Lowe actually ever designed a racing car?

I don't think in the modern era of Formula 1 any individual - with the possible exception of Adrian Newey - has actually designed a racing car. It's done by vast teams of people working together, sometimes under the direction of one person. But Paddy Lowe has certainly contributed to quite a few very successful racing cars, which is as much as you can say for Allison and possibly more.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:24 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Here's all I know; Paddy has been very successful over the last half decade or so. He designed the last really great McLaren for the 2012 season and his time with Mercedes was pure and utter domination. Allison has not had that level of success recently so this is definitely something to keep an eye on. As has been pointed out, they will not have identical roles but it's still something to watch.

I think Mercedes will be very strong this year. The only question is; will they have legitimate competition?

Has Paddy Lowe actually ever designed a racing car?

I don't think in the modern era of Formula 1 any individual - with the possible exception of Adrian Newey - has actually designed a racing car. It's done by vast teams of people working together, sometimes under the direction of one person. But Paddy Lowe has certainly contributed to quite a few very successful racing cars, which is as much as you can say for Allison and possibly more.

He was technical director at McLaren when he left and at Mercedes. Of course no one person designs the car with a note pad and pencil but generally, the technical director is the leader of that process and is responsible for the overall direction and philosophy.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:48 pm 
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j man wrote:
With that in mind does Lowe's departure suggest a bit of a power grab from Toto rather than a move that was beneficial to the team?


It can be both a power grab, and beneficial to the team. I dislike Toto and his style and like Paddy, so I'm not directly drawing that conclusion. Just keep an open mind that its not one or the other. :-P

Also, it sounds like this is something which just organically happened. Lowe thought he was a partner, but got the straight No from Wolff in negotiations. The only people who can dictate both their standings is those above them, and it seems like over time Wolff gained standing and Lowe didn't.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:57 am 
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Ferrari improved when allison left. This is his first car at merc and looks like it has issues. Yes we dont know for sure yet, but it made me think whether hes actually any good? what has he done?

bit part player in the ferrari success 00-05, then renault but clearly not responsible for the 05 and 06 cars. became technical director in 09 and so we can credit him with the decent lotus cars 12 and 13. ferrari terrible in 14 though cant blame him for that. 15 a bit better 3 wins, 16 no wins. then he leaves mid 16 and 17 and 18 much better.

not slating him as such but just interested to see what you guys think of him. if this does turn out to be mercs first dog of the hybrid era he cant hide can he?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:11 am 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Ferrari improved when allison left. This is his first car at merc and looks like it has issues. Yes we dont know for sure yet, but it made me think whether hes actually any good? what has he done?

bit part player in the ferrari success 00-05, then renault but clearly not responsible for the 05 and 06 cars. became technical director in 09 and so we can credit him with the decent lotus cars 12 and 13. ferrari terrible in 14 though cant blame him for that. 15 a bit better 3 wins, 16 no wins. then he leaves mid 16 and 17 and 18 much better.

not slating him as such but just interested to see what you guys think of him. if this does turn out to be mercs first dog of the hybrid era he cant hide can he?

I think what we're seeing here is a blow to the mythical status of these hero designers. An F1 team is hundreds of people; the highly visible guy at the head of the technical team is not the technical team.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:01 am 
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It’s an interesting discussion point, but I think it’s too early to form any concrete discussions just yet. There’s so much we don’t know about what’s really happening in testing


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 11:08 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Ferrari improved when allison left. This is his first car at merc and looks like it has issues. Yes we dont know for sure yet, but it made me think whether hes actually any good? what has he done?

bit part player in the ferrari success 00-05, then renault but clearly not responsible for the 05 and 06 cars. became technical director in 09 and so we can credit him with the decent lotus cars 12 and 13. ferrari terrible in 14 though cant blame him for that. 15 a bit better 3 wins, 16 no wins. then he leaves mid 16 and 17 and 18 much better.

not slating him as such but just interested to see what you guys think of him. if this does turn out to be mercs first dog of the hybrid era he cant hide can he?

I think what we're seeing here is a blow to the mythical status of these hero designers. An F1 team is hundreds of people; the highly visible guy at the head of the technical team is not the technical team.


agree and disagree in a way. allison is a chassis n aero guy like newey. yes newey isnt a one man band but wherever he has been he's had success. cant say that about allison so far. i suppose newey is the guy im comparing him to and thinking not sure he compares at all. paddy lowe isnt a chassis aero guy but have merc lost other guys in that area i dont know. or have they just gained allison and he is leading them the wrong way?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 12:51 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
j man wrote:
With that in mind does Lowe's departure suggest a bit of a power grab from Toto rather than a move that was beneficial to the team?


It can be both a power grab, and beneficial to the team. I dislike Toto and his style and like Paddy, so I'm not directly drawing that conclusion. Just keep an open mind that its not one or the other. :-P

Also, it sounds like this is something which just organically happened. Lowe thought he was a partner, but got the straight No from Wolff in negotiations. The only people who can dictate both their standings is those above them, and it seems like over time Wolff gained standing and Lowe didn't.



didnt TOTO buy into MB after he left Williams? He had an ownership stake in Williams too. I assume Paddy wanted a share of the team and was told no...he left to Williams and now has an ownership stake in Williams if I read the reports correctly.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 1:11 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Ferrari improved when allison left. This is his first car at merc and looks like it has issues. Yes we dont know for sure yet, but it made me think whether hes actually any good? what has he done?

bit part player in the ferrari success 00-05, then renault but clearly not responsible for the 05 and 06 cars. became technical director in 09 and so we can credit him with the decent lotus cars 12 and 13. ferrari terrible in 14 though cant blame him for that. 15 a bit better 3 wins, 16 no wins. then he leaves mid 16 and 17 and 18 much better.

not slating him as such but just interested to see what you guys think of him. if this does turn out to be mercs first dog of the hybrid era he cant hide can he?

I think what we're seeing here is a blow to the mythical status of these hero designers. An F1 team is hundreds of people; the highly visible guy at the head of the technical team is not the technical team.

I believe a lot of depends on how the teams are organised. Who makes decisions, where buck ends, what are the roles certain executive staff etc. I believe a head designer can still play critical role in design. Lets say he might be presented with alternative designs and it might be up to him to choose right design and right development patch.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 2:45 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Ferrari improved when allison left. This is his first car at merc and looks like it has issues. Yes we dont know for sure yet, but it made me think whether hes actually any good? what has he done?

bit part player in the ferrari success 00-05, then renault but clearly not responsible for the 05 and 06 cars. became technical director in 09 and so we can credit him with the decent lotus cars 12 and 13. ferrari terrible in 14 though cant blame him for that. 15 a bit better 3 wins, 16 no wins. then he leaves mid 16 and 17 and 18 much better.

not slating him as such but just interested to see what you guys think of him. if this does turn out to be mercs first dog of the hybrid era he cant hide can he?

I think what we're seeing here is a blow to the mythical status of these hero designers. An F1 team is hundreds of people; the highly visible guy at the head of the technical team is not the technical team.

I believe a lot of depends on how the teams are organised. Who makes decisions, where buck ends, what are the roles certain executive staff etc. I believe a head designer can still play critical role in design. Lets say he might be presented with alternative designs and it might be up to him to choose right design and right development patch.


Thats the way I see it too. If you look at Newey cars over the last few years they pretty much have followed the same philosophy, which mean the designs are largely influenced by him. Cant say the same about Allison though as his cars so far arent different to what Merc was putting out before. And it does appear they are getting worse yes.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:12 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Ferrari improved when allison left. This is his first car at merc and looks like it has issues. Yes we dont know for sure yet, but it made me think whether hes actually any good? what has he done?

bit part player in the ferrari success 00-05, then renault but clearly not responsible for the 05 and 06 cars. became technical director in 09 and so we can credit him with the decent lotus cars 12 and 13. ferrari terrible in 14 though cant blame him for that. 15 a bit better 3 wins, 16 no wins. then he leaves mid 16 and 17 and 18 much better.

not slating him as such but just interested to see what you guys think of him. if this does turn out to be mercs first dog of the hybrid era he cant hide can he?

I think what we're seeing here is a blow to the mythical status of these hero designers. An F1 team is hundreds of people; the highly visible guy at the head of the technical team is not the technical team.

I believe a lot of depends on how the teams are organised. Who makes decisions, where buck ends, what are the roles certain executive staff etc. I believe a head designer can still play critical role in design. Lets say he might be presented with alternative designs and it might be up to him to choose right design and right development patch.


Thats the way I see it too. If you look at Newey cars over the last few years they pretty much have followed the same philosophy, which mean the designs are largely influenced by him. Cant say the same about Allison though as his cars so far arent different to what Merc was putting out before. And it does appear they are getting worse yes.

Are Mercedes cars getting worse or are they experiencing the point of diminishing returns?

They came straight out of the gates with a dominating package when the new regulations came about in 2014 which would leave them with less room for improvement compared to the other teams. The likes of Ferrari and Red Bull have been closing the gap year-on-year by making bigger gains because they had greater scope to improve.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:40 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
kleefton wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
Ferrari improved when allison left. This is his first car at merc and looks like it has issues. Yes we dont know for sure yet, but it made me think whether hes actually any good? what has he done?

bit part player in the ferrari success 00-05, then renault but clearly not responsible for the 05 and 06 cars. became technical director in 09 and so we can credit him with the decent lotus cars 12 and 13. ferrari terrible in 14 though cant blame him for that. 15 a bit better 3 wins, 16 no wins. then he leaves mid 16 and 17 and 18 much better.

not slating him as such but just interested to see what you guys think of him. if this does turn out to be mercs first dog of the hybrid era he cant hide can he?

I think what we're seeing here is a blow to the mythical status of these hero designers. An F1 team is hundreds of people; the highly visible guy at the head of the technical team is not the technical team.

I believe a lot of depends on how the teams are organised. Who makes decisions, where buck ends, what are the roles certain executive staff etc. I believe a head designer can still play critical role in design. Lets say he might be presented with alternative designs and it might be up to him to choose right design and right development patch.


Thats the way I see it too. If you look at Newey cars over the last few years they pretty much have followed the same philosophy, which mean the designs are largely influenced by him. Cant say the same about Allison though as his cars so far arent different to what Merc was putting out before. And it does appear they are getting worse yes.

Are Mercedes cars getting worse or are they experiencing the point of diminishing returns?

They came straight out of the gates with a dominating package when the new regulations came about in 2014 which would leave them with less room for improvement compared to the other teams. The likes of Ferrari and Red Bull have been closing the gap year-on-year by making bigger gains because they had greater scope to improve.


agree. i think its highly likely a red bull merc hybrid era car would have claimed a couple of titles maybe more. the mercs were clearly more then just the engine but maybe they have never had the best chassis/aero on the grid and now they have been caught and overtaken. it has been a very unmerc like winter. having to do a big update tells me they are not sandbagging. i think they will be behind ferrari and redbull in australia. maybe its harsh to question allison but he is the top technical guy at the most successfull team and i am wondering what has he done to deserve it?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 3:44 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
kleefton wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I think what we're seeing here is a blow to the mythical status of these hero designers. An F1 team is hundreds of people; the highly visible guy at the head of the technical team is not the technical team.

I believe a lot of depends on how the teams are organised. Who makes decisions, where buck ends, what are the roles certain executive staff etc. I believe a head designer can still play critical role in design. Lets say he might be presented with alternative designs and it might be up to him to choose right design and right development patch.


Thats the way I see it too. If you look at Newey cars over the last few years they pretty much have followed the same philosophy, which mean the designs are largely influenced by him. Cant say the same about Allison though as his cars so far arent different to what Merc was putting out before. And it does appear they are getting worse yes.

Are Mercedes cars getting worse or are they experiencing the point of diminishing returns?

They came straight out of the gates with a dominating package when the new regulations came about in 2014 which would leave them with less room for improvement compared to the other teams. The likes of Ferrari and Red Bull have been closing the gap year-on-year by making bigger gains because they had greater scope to improve.


agree. i think its highly likely a red bull merc hybrid era car would have claimed a couple of titles maybe more. the mercs were clearly more then just the engine but maybe they have never had the best chassis/aero on the grid and now they have been caught and overtaken. it has been a very unmerc like winter. having to do a big update tells me they are not sandbagging. i think they will be behind ferrari and redbull in australia. maybe its harsh to question allison but he is the top technical guy at the most successfull team and i am wondering what has he done to deserve it?
according to Mark Hughes the big update was planned all along and wasn’t an update as such - it just wasn’t ready in time for the first test. So it may not be them on the back foot and reacting at all


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 5:36 pm 
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Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
agree. i think its highly likely a red bull merc hybrid era car would have claimed a couple of titles maybe more. the mercs were clearly more then just the engine but maybe they have never had the best chassis/aero on the grid and now they have been caught and overtaken. it has been a very unmerc like winter. having to do a big update tells me they are not sandbagging. i think they will be behind ferrari and redbull in australia. maybe its harsh to question allison but he is the top technical guy at the most successfull team and i am wondering what has he done to deserve it?

The Mercedes chassis has been one of the very best since 2014. People
Have EXTREMELY short memories is what’s at play here. While Mercedes have been the top dog, they have never stopped working on developing new ideas into functional components that provide gains for their cars. Double DRS, linked suspension, further engine refinement, aero, they’ve continued to improve ach season. Last year Ferrari made the greatest gains and were on par with Mercedes UNTIL the summer break, where Mercedes pulled ahead in the development race. It wasn’t much, but enough to allow Hamilton to pull ahead to win the championship.
Red Bull MAY have had the best chassis the last several seasons but that’s mere speculation, and no one will EVER know, not even Red Bull themselves.

All this said, Mercedes has performed similarly in pre-season tests in order to keep their cards close to their chest and have only run all out come Q1 in Australia. Red Bull did the exact same thing during their dominant run. You don’t want to let your competitors see everything you have, especially if you develop something fresh and new and don’t want it to either have its legality questioned or copied. The game’s Chess… it ain’t Checkers! Lol

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:02 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
agree. i think its highly likely a red bull merc hybrid era car would have claimed a couple of titles maybe more. the mercs were clearly more then just the engine but maybe they have never had the best chassis/aero on the grid and now they have been caught and overtaken. it has been a very unmerc like winter. having to do a big update tells me they are not sandbagging. i think they will be behind ferrari and redbull in australia. maybe its harsh to question allison but he is the top technical guy at the most successfull team and i am wondering what has he done to deserve it?

The Mercedes chassis has been one of the very best since 2014. People
Have EXTREMELY short memories is what’s at play here. While Mercedes have been the top dog, they have never stopped working on developing new ideas into functional components that provide gains for their cars. Double DRS, linked suspension, further engine refinement, aero, they’ve continued to improve ach season. Last year Ferrari made the greatest gains and were on par with Mercedes UNTIL the summer break, where Mercedes pulled ahead in the development race. It wasn’t much, but enough to allow Hamilton to pull ahead to win the championship.
Red Bull MAY have had the best chassis the last several seasons but that’s mere speculation, and no one will EVER know, not even Red Bull themselves.

All this said, Mercedes has performed similarly in pre-season tests in order to keep their cards close to their chest and have only run all out come Q1 in Australia. Red Bull did the exact same thing during their dominant run. You don’t want to let your competitors see everything you have, especially if you develop something fresh and new and don’t want it to either have its legality questioned or copied. The game’s Chess… it ain’t Checkers! Lol

Absolutely not true. That's completely inaccurate. After the summer break they went to Spa; where Ferrari were clearly the quickest car but they screwed up Kimi's Q3 by not fueling his car properly and Vettel bungeld his last hotlap. Up to that point, Ferrari had been quickest through all the practice and qualifying sessions and indeed on the first hotlap in Q3. In the race, it wasn't even close. Monza; same thing; Ferrari were fastest but Vettel spun out on the first lap and then Ferrari got the strategy wrong by pitting Kimi too soon and than pushing his tires too hard immediately after the stop while Hamilton performed to an extremely high level and pulled off the win.

Singapore? Both Kimi and Sebastian claimed they could have set pole but Ferrari never actually got them the ideal preparation and out lap to execute their Q3 lap and they both made mistakes on their hot laps. Hamilton put in one of the best qualifying laps you could ever see there and in the race he won from the front while Ferrari screwed up the strategy again and cost Seb a position to Verstappen and any chance at fighting with Lewis.

I'd say Russia was a race where Mercedes seemed to have the edge although Vettel seemed able to match the race pace there. Japan is hard to say as Ferrari, again, bungled qualifying by not getting on track in Q3 before the rain started to really come down but, based on Q1 and Q2, I'd give that race to Mercedes as well. This was during that window where Ferrari had an upgrade package that didn't work or perhaps had to use a sensor that stopped them from getting more electrical power or whatever. Ferrari were stronger in the US (especially taking Mercedes massive tire issues into account) and they were stronger in Mexico.

Brazil was a race where both teams were poor and Abu Dhabi was a race where Mercedes were stronger but your statement that Merc overtook them in the development race after the summer break is absolutely false. It was basically neck and neck in the post-summer time frame. Before the summer break, Ferrari had the better car in 8-9 of the 12 races.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:47 pm 
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Mercedes have been going backwards relative to the competition every year since 2014. Even if this year's car is well behind the Ferrari (I'm not getting carried away from appearances in testing), it's only a continuation of the existing trend. And to be fair, from where they were in 2014 the only way was down and the teams' performance was always going to converge as the new rules settled in.

I also think that the role of the technical director in the team's overall performance is greatly exaggerated. The Mercedes is a product of hundreds of engineers' individual ideas and Allison's job is mostly to organise them effectively and make sure they are working on the right things in the right priority order. I imagine his direct input into the actual engineering of the car will be more limited than you'd think, and the big technical decisions would be made by the layer of management beneath him.

Just look at Paddy Lowe. According to some in the space of a year he's gone from a technical genius to a fraud who clearly had nothing to do with Mercedes' success just by switching teams.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:58 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
agree. i think its highly likely a red bull merc hybrid era car would have claimed a couple of titles maybe more. the mercs were clearly more then just the engine but maybe they have never had the best chassis/aero on the grid and now they have been caught and overtaken. it has been a very unmerc like winter. having to do a big update tells me they are not sandbagging. i think they will be behind ferrari and redbull in australia. maybe its harsh to question allison but he is the top technical guy at the most successfull team and i am wondering what has he done to deserve it?

The Mercedes chassis has been one of the very best since 2014. People
Have EXTREMELY short memories is what’s at play here. While Mercedes have been the top dog, they have never stopped working on developing new ideas into functional components that provide gains for their cars. Double DRS, linked suspension, further engine refinement, aero, they’ve continued to improve ach season. Last year Ferrari made the greatest gains and were on par with Mercedes UNTIL the summer break, where Mercedes pulled ahead in the development race. It wasn’t much, but enough to allow Hamilton to pull ahead to win the championship.
Red Bull MAY have had the best chassis the last several seasons but that’s mere speculation, and no one will EVER know, not even Red Bull themselves.

All this said, Mercedes has performed similarly in pre-season tests in order to keep their cards close to their chest and have only run all out come Q1 in Australia. Red Bull did the exact same thing during their dominant run. You don’t want to let your competitors see everything you have, especially if you develop something fresh and new and don’t want it to either have its legality questioned or copied. The game’s Chess… it ain’t Checkers! Lol

Absolutely not true. That's completely inaccurate. After the summer break they went to Spa; where Ferrari were clearly the quickest car but they screwed up Kimi's Q3 by not fueling his car properly and Vettel bungeld his last hotlap. Up to that point, Ferrari had been quickest through all the practice and qualifying sessions and indeed on the first hotlap in Q3. In the race, it wasn't even close. Monza; same thing; Ferrari were fastest but Vettel spun out on the first lap and then Ferrari got the strategy wrong by pitting Kimi too soon and than pushing his tires too hard immediately after the stop while Hamilton performed to an extremely high level and pulled off the win.

Singapore? Both Kimi and Sebastian claimed they could have set pole but Ferrari never actually got them the ideal preparation and out lap to execute their Q3 lap and they both made mistakes on their hot laps. Hamilton put in one of the best qualifying laps you could ever see there and in the race he won from the front while Ferrari screwed up the strategy again and cost Seb a position to Verstappen and any chance at fighting with Lewis.

I'd say Russia was a race where Mercedes seemed to have the edge although Vettel seemed able to match the race pace there. Japan is hard to say as Ferrari, again, bungled qualifying by not getting on track in Q3 before the rain started to really come down but, based on Q1 and Q2, I'd give that race to Mercedes as well. This was during that window where Ferrari had an upgrade package that didn't work or perhaps had to use a sensor that stopped them from getting more electrical power or whatever. Ferrari were stronger in the US (especially taking Mercedes massive tire issues into account) and they were stronger in Mexico.

Brazil was a race where both teams were poor and Abu Dhabi was a race where Mercedes were stronger but your statement that Merc overtook them in the development race after the summer break is absolutely false. It was basically neck and neck in the post-summer time frame. Before the summer break, Ferrari had the better car in 8-9 of the 12 races.

I don’t think that’s true either, really. Some of the times where Ferrari allegedly had the better car seem based entirely on the fact that Hamilton wasn’t the quickest, which I think is a flawed metric. I think the cars were relatively evenly matched but in the last third or so if the year it was Merc in the hot seat for the most part. Ferrari had an advantage over the summer but it’s being blown up to make out they were superior for most of the year and that’s just not true in my view


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:59 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
agree. i think its highly likely a red bull merc hybrid era car would have claimed a couple of titles maybe more. the mercs were clearly more then just the engine but maybe they have never had the best chassis/aero on the grid and now they have been caught and overtaken. it has been a very unmerc like winter. having to do a big update tells me they are not sandbagging. i think they will be behind ferrari and redbull in australia. maybe its harsh to question allison but he is the top technical guy at the most successfull team and i am wondering what has he done to deserve it?

The Mercedes chassis has been one of the very best since 2014. People
Have EXTREMELY short memories is what’s at play here. While Mercedes have been the top dog, they have never stopped working on developing new ideas into functional components that provide gains for their cars. Double DRS, linked suspension, further engine refinement, aero, they’ve continued to improve ach season. Last year Ferrari made the greatest gains and were on par with Mercedes UNTIL the summer break, where Mercedes pulled ahead in the development race. It wasn’t much, but enough to allow Hamilton to pull ahead to win the championship.
Red Bull MAY have had the best chassis the last several seasons but that’s mere speculation, and no one will EVER know, not even Red Bull themselves.

All this said, Mercedes has performed similarly in pre-season tests in order to keep their cards close to their chest and have only run all out come Q1 in Australia. Red Bull did the exact same thing during their dominant run. You don’t want to let your competitors see everything you have, especially if you develop something fresh and new and don’t want it to either have its legality questioned or copied. The game’s Chess… it ain’t Checkers! Lol

Absolutely not true. That's completely inaccurate. After the summer break they went to Spa; where Ferrari were clearly the quickest car but they screwed up Kimi's Q3 by not fueling his car properly and Vettel bungeld his last hotlap. Up to that point, Ferrari had been quickest through all the practice and qualifying sessions and indeed on the first hotlap in Q3. In the race, it wasn't even close. Monza; same thing; Ferrari were fastest but Vettel spun out on the first lap and then Ferrari got the strategy wrong by pitting Kimi too soon and than pushing his tires too hard immediately after the stop while Hamilton performed to an extremely high level and pulled off the win.

Singapore? Both Kimi and Sebastian claimed they could have set pole but Ferrari never actually got them the ideal preparation and out lap to execute their Q3 lap and they both made mistakes on their hot laps. Hamilton put in one of the best qualifying laps you could ever see there and in the race he won from the front while Ferrari screwed up the strategy again and cost Seb a position to Verstappen and any chance at fighting with Lewis.

I'd say Russia was a race where Mercedes seemed to have the edge although Vettel seemed able to match the race pace there. Japan is hard to say as Ferrari, again, bungled qualifying by not getting on track in Q3 before the rain started to really come down but, based on Q1 and Q2, I'd give that race to Mercedes as well. This was during that window where Ferrari had an upgrade package that didn't work or perhaps had to use a sensor that stopped them from getting more electrical power or whatever. Ferrari were stronger in the US (especially taking Mercedes massive tire issues into account) and they were stronger in Mexico.

Brazil was a race where both teams were poor and Abu Dhabi was a race where Mercedes were stronger but your statement that Merc overtook them in the development race after the summer break is absolutely false. It was basically neck and neck in the post-summer time frame. Before the summer break, Ferrari had the better car in 8-9 of the 12 races.

Indeed Ferrari losing their way for 2/3 races becomes them being out developed and having an inferior car in the second half of the season, revisionism at its finest.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 16th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:01 pm 
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j man wrote:
Mercedes have been going backwards relative to the competition every year since 2014. Even if this year's car is well behind the Ferrari (I'm not getting carried away from appearances in testing), it's only a continuation of the existing trend. And to be fair, from where they were in 2014 the only way was down and the teams' performance was always going to converge as the new rules settled in.

I also think that the role of the technical director in the team's overall performance is greatly exaggerated. The Mercedes is a product of hundreds of engineers' individual ideas and Allison's job is mostly to organise them effectively and make sure they are working on the right things in the right priority order. I imagine his direct input into the actual engineering of the car will be more limited than you'd think, and the big technical decisions would be made by the layer of management beneath him.

Just look at Paddy Lowe. According to some in the space of a year he's gone from a technical genius to a fraud who clearly had nothing to do with Mercedes' success just by switching teams.
I’m in two minds on this one. I get what you’re saying but OTOH Newey has consistently produced top cars wherever he’s been and I think he deserves a lot of credit for that


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:03 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
kleefton wrote:
dizlexik wrote:
I believe a lot of depends on how the teams are organised. Who makes decisions, where buck ends, what are the roles certain executive staff etc. I believe a head designer can still play critical role in design. Lets say he might be presented with alternative designs and it might be up to him to choose right design and right development patch.


Thats the way I see it too. If you look at Newey cars over the last few years they pretty much have followed the same philosophy, which mean the designs are largely influenced by him. Cant say the same about Allison though as his cars so far arent different to what Merc was putting out before. And it does appear they are getting worse yes.

Are Mercedes cars getting worse or are they experiencing the point of diminishing returns?

They came straight out of the gates with a dominating package when the new regulations came about in 2014 which would leave them with less room for improvement compared to the other teams. The likes of Ferrari and Red Bull have been closing the gap year-on-year by making bigger gains because they had greater scope to improve.


agree. i think its highly likely a red bull merc hybrid era car would have claimed a couple of titles maybe more. the mercs were clearly more then just the engine but maybe they have never had the best chassis/aero on the grid and now they have been caught and overtaken. it has been a very unmerc like winter. having to do a big update tells me they are not sandbagging. i think they will be behind ferrari and redbull in australia. maybe its harsh to question allison but he is the top technical guy at the most successfull team and i am wondering what has he done to deserve it?
according to Mark Hughes the big update was planned all along and wasn’t an update as such - it just wasn’t ready in time for the first test. So it may not be them on the back foot and reacting at all

Indeed it was always planned that way, that being said watching Mercedes thus far doesn't exactly fill me full of confidence.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: 7th place
2019: Currently 16th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (8)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 8:02 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
agree. i think its highly likely a red bull merc hybrid era car would have claimed a couple of titles maybe more. the mercs were clearly more then just the engine but maybe they have never had the best chassis/aero on the grid and now they have been caught and overtaken. it has been a very unmerc like winter. having to do a big update tells me they are not sandbagging. i think they will be behind ferrari and redbull in australia. maybe its harsh to question allison but he is the top technical guy at the most successfull team and i am wondering what has he done to deserve it?

The Mercedes chassis has been one of the very best since 2014. People
Have EXTREMELY short memories is what’s at play here. While Mercedes have been the top dog, they have never stopped working on developing new ideas into functional components that provide gains for their cars. Double DRS, linked suspension, further engine refinement, aero, they’ve continued to improve ach season. Last year Ferrari made the greatest gains and were on par with Mercedes UNTIL the summer break, where Mercedes pulled ahead in the development race. It wasn’t much, but enough to allow Hamilton to pull ahead to win the championship.
Red Bull MAY have had the best chassis the last several seasons but that’s mere speculation, and no one will EVER know, not even Red Bull themselves.

All this said, Mercedes has performed similarly in pre-season tests in order to keep their cards close to their chest and have only run all out come Q1 in Australia. Red Bull did the exact same thing during their dominant run. You don’t want to let your competitors see everything you have, especially if you develop something fresh and new and don’t want it to either have its legality questioned or copied. The game’s Chess… it ain’t Checkers! Lol

Absolutely not true. That's completely inaccurate. After the summer break they went to Spa; where Ferrari were clearly the quickest car but they screwed up Kimi's Q3 by not fueling his car properly and Vettel bungeld his last hotlap. Up to that point, Ferrari had been quickest through all the practice and qualifying sessions and indeed on the first hotlap in Q3. In the race, it wasn't even close. Monza; same thing; Ferrari were fastest but Vettel spun out on the first lap and then Ferrari got the strategy wrong by pitting Kimi too soon and than pushing his tires too hard immediately after the stop while Hamilton performed to an extremely high level and pulled off the win.

Singapore? Both Kimi and Sebastian claimed they could have set pole but Ferrari never actually got them the ideal preparation and out lap to execute their Q3 lap and they both made mistakes on their hot laps. Hamilton put in one of the best qualifying laps you could ever see there and in the race he won from the front while Ferrari screwed up the strategy again and cost Seb a position to Verstappen and any chance at fighting with Lewis.

I'd say Russia was a race where Mercedes seemed to have the edge although Vettel seemed able to match the race pace there. Japan is hard to say as Ferrari, again, bungled qualifying by not getting on track in Q3 before the rain started to really come down but, based on Q1 and Q2, I'd give that race to Mercedes as well. This was during that window where Ferrari had an upgrade package that didn't work or perhaps had to use a sensor that stopped them from getting more electrical power or whatever. Ferrari were stronger in the US (especially taking Mercedes massive tire issues into account) and they were stronger in Mexico.

Brazil was a race where both teams were poor and Abu Dhabi was a race where Mercedes were stronger but your statement that Merc overtook them in the development race after the summer break is absolutely false. It was basically neck and neck in the post-summer time frame. Before the summer break, Ferrari had the better car in 8-9 of the 12 races.

I don’t think that’s true either, really. Some of the times where Ferrari allegedly had the better car seem based entirely on the fact that Hamilton wasn’t the quickest, which I think is a flawed metric. I think the cars were relatively evenly matched but in the last third or so if the year it was Merc in the hot seat for the most part. Ferrari had an advantage over the summer but it’s being blown up to make out they were superior for most of the year and that’s just not true in my view

It's not really possible to respond without you providing an actual example of a race where Ferrari was believed to be quicker but you feel that they were not.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:00 pm 
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I will come back on it but I’m traveling for the next few days so won’t be able to go into as much detail as I’d like. Please bear with me and I’ll respond properly when I get back


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:25 pm 
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does everything decend into who had the faster car last year.

Allison signs for mercedes. Is allison any good? what does he have for breakfast? any pets? anything else really.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:37 pm 
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When I opened the forum before I thought Liverpool's goalkeeper had decided to have a go at formula 1.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:39 pm 
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JN23 wrote:
When I opened the forum before I thought Liverpool's goalkeeper had decided to have a go at formula 1.


that will do. how do you think he'd get on?


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 10:04 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Caserole of Nonsense wrote:
agree. i think its highly likely a red bull merc hybrid era car would have claimed a couple of titles maybe more. the mercs were clearly more then just the engine but maybe they have never had the best chassis/aero on the grid and now they have been caught and overtaken. it has been a very unmerc like winter. having to do a big update tells me they are not sandbagging. i think they will be behind ferrari and redbull in australia. maybe its harsh to question allison but he is the top technical guy at the most successfull team and i am wondering what has he done to deserve it?

The Mercedes chassis has been one of the very best since 2014. People
Have EXTREMELY short memories is what’s at play here. While Mercedes have been the top dog, they have never stopped working on developing new ideas into functional components that provide gains for their cars. Double DRS, linked suspension, further engine refinement, aero, they’ve continued to improve ach season. Last year Ferrari made the greatest gains and were on par with Mercedes UNTIL the summer break, where Mercedes pulled ahead in the development race. It wasn’t much, but enough to allow Hamilton to pull ahead to win the championship.
Red Bull MAY have had the best chassis the last several seasons but that’s mere speculation, and no one will EVER know, not even Red Bull themselves.

All this said, Mercedes has performed similarly in pre-season tests in order to keep their cards close to their chest and have only run all out come Q1 in Australia. Red Bull did the exact same thing during their dominant run. You don’t want to let your competitors see everything you have, especially if you develop something fresh and new and don’t want it to either have its legality questioned or copied. The game’s Chess… it ain’t Checkers! Lol


I think it's important to note that Hamilton had already established a comfortable points lead, despite a mechanical DNF and multiple reliability issues(while Vettel's car remained bullet-proof), BEFORE Ferrari's 3 race developmental issues. At the conclusion of the Italian GP, Hamilton had accumulated a healthy 30 point advantage, despite Ferrari having been quicker more often. Hamilton was able to initially pull ahead, mainly due to him optimising his chances & making few mistakes - rather than as a consequence of Ferrari taking a backward step with their upgrades.

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