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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:52 pm 
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I was shocked to see that Bottas is only 15 points behind Hamilton after Austria.

I tried to adjust for bad luck they have suffered in races and qualifying, and here is my guess:

> Spain - Bottas had a car failure from 3rd, lost 15 points.

> Azerbaijan - Hamilton lost the race win, and lost a net 15 points.

> Austria - Hamilton would've probably finished 3rd, I'm going by the order of qualifying. He came 4th in the race, so lost a potential 3 points.

Hence, even after adjusting both drivers' luck, Bottas would've been only 18 points Hamilton. Hamilton has made no mistakes in the race, while Bottas made one, tiny but silly one:

In China, Bottas could've been 2nd, but he spun behind the safety car, came 6th, and lost 10 points.

If not for his China error, Bottas would be only 8 points Hamilton, after adjusting for reliability in qualifying and races. Astounding performance for a newcomer to the team. :thumbup:

The only teammate to be this close to Hamilton in performance was Fernando Alonso.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 1:57 pm 
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One must also remember that Bottas is new to the team, it would be expected that it would take a few races to get comfortable with them.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:01 pm 
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That's precisely what I'm saying Blake, he's new to the team and could've been only 8 points to 18 points behind Hamilton, adjusting for luck. It's phenomenal performance. Best part is, this is AFTER he's been helping Hamilton by letting him past. 8O


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:02 pm 
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Spinning behind the safety car is now classed as bad luck lol. Looked like he made a big mistake to me . Bottas has been impressive. If he wasn't one of the best there is no way he'd be at Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:03 pm 
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Bottas also made an errors in Spain and Azerbaijan but got away with both in the end - Although did cost himself a win in Azerbaijan.

Sometimes it's about the good luck you get as much as the bad.

That being said I've been impressed. I think he is stacking up favourably to Rosberg. On the flip side I don't think Hamilton has been at his best. Another race today where I think a higher finishing position was possible.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Spinning behind the safety car is now classed as bad luck lol. Looked like he made a big mistake to me . Bottas has been impressive. If he wasn't one of the best there is no way he'd be at Mercedes.


Read carefully, I concluded he should be 18 points behind Hamilton, luck-adjusted.

THEN I suggested if he hadn't made a mistake, he'd be only 8 points behind. I didn't count the spin as bad luck. It IS driver error.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Bottas also made an errors in Spain and Azerbaijan but got away with both in the end - Although did cost himself a win in Azerbaijan.

Sometimes it's about the good luck you get as much as the bad.

That being said I've been impressed. I think he is stacking up favourably to Rosberg. On the flip side I don't think Hamilton has been at his best. Another race today where I think a higher finishing position was possible.


I think that's harsh for today. His US tyres looked second hand after just a few laps. I don't think he was allowed to really push until a few laps from the end. He definitely is driving safety first when overtaking and that may cast him later in the season. After a Grid penalty he'll be happy to only have lost a small number of points.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:21 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
Spinning behind the safety car is now classed as bad luck lol. Looked like he made a big mistake to me . Bottas has been impressive. If he wasn't one of the best there is no way he'd be at Mercedes.


Read carefully, I concluded he should be 18 points behind Hamilton, luck-adjusted.

THEN I suggested if he hadn't made a mistake, he'd be only 8 points behind. I didn't count the spin as bad luck. It IS driver error.


Sorry, I read your 2nd post where it says between 8-18 points depending on luck. F1 is a lot about luck as well so I wouldn't begrudge any of the top drivers having a bit of the good kind. Unfortunately that always comes at the expense of someone else.
Hamilton is on the receiving end of all the bad at the moment.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:23 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Bottas also made an errors in Spain and Azerbaijan but got away with both in the end - Although did cost himself a win in Azerbaijan.

Sometimes it's about the good luck you get as much as the bad.

That being said I've been impressed. I think he is stacking up favourably to Rosberg. On the flip side I don't think Hamilton has been at his best. Another race today where I think a higher finishing position was possible.

I don't think that was a mistake in spain. He did admit he could have breaked later though. But when he did brake early, Verstappen and Ricciardo both attempted to pull along side. and there wasn't enough space where they decided to do so. Kimi won't have been able to go any further to the left as Verstappen was there. And Verstappen may not have known Bottas was there. As the rules stated this year, if one driver was clearly to blame, they would get a penalty for a first lap collision. Bottas wasnh't the one who suffered and the other 2 retired. So I very much doubt they thought Bottas was at fault. Anyway, in the end, none of the drivers blamed eachother.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:24 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Bottas also made an errors in Spain and Azerbaijan but got away with both in the end - Although did cost himself a win in Azerbaijan.

Sometimes it's about the good luck you get as much as the bad.

That being said I've been impressed. I think he is stacking up favourably to Rosberg. On the flip side I don't think Hamilton has been at his best. Another race today where I think a higher finishing position was possible.


I think that's harsh for today. His US tyres looked second hand after just a few laps. I don't think he was allowed to really push until a few laps from the end. He definitely is driving safety first when overtaking and that may cast him later in the season. After a Grid penalty he'll be happy to only have lost a small number of points.


I think a Hamilton on top form would've got Ricciardo.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Ricciardo is just a top notch racer. I never thought Lewis was going to get by, not with the issues he had. He had to wait until the final laps to mount an attack. But earlier in the stint, Ricciardo was lapping just as fast as him and Lewis couldn't make any inroads.
I think Lewis should have gotten by Raikkonen though. That was ridiculous that he didn't.

Bottas being only 15 points down to Hamilton? I don't think that is going to last much longer to be honest. Bottas is usually slow in at least one of his stints. That is going to end up costing him in the long run. Unless Hamilton starts having a bunch of technical issues....


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:00 pm 
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Again, Bottas > Rosberg.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:21 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Bottas also made an errors in Spain and Azerbaijan but got away with both in the end - Although did cost himself a win in Azerbaijan.

Sometimes it's about the good luck you get as much as the bad.

That being said I've been impressed. I think he is stacking up favourably to Rosberg. On the flip side I don't think Hamilton has been at his best. Another race today where I think a higher finishing position was possible.


I think that's harsh for today. His US tyres looked second hand after just a few laps. I don't think he was allowed to really push until a few laps from the end. He definitely is driving safety first when overtaking and that may cast him later in the season. After a Grid penalty he'll be happy to only have lost a small number of points.


I think a Hamilton on top form would've got Ricciardo.

It's situational racing. Danny would only be passed if it was done and dusted going into the corner. Lewis can't afford to score 0 so there is no way he does anything that results in a crash.
Both guys know each other's mindset so I'm not surprised it finished like it did.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:24 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
I was shocked to see that Bottas is only 15 points behind Hamilton after Austria.

I tried to adjust for bad luck they have suffered in races and qualifying, and here is my guess:

> Spain - Bottas had a car failure from 3rd, lost 15 points.

> Azerbaijan - Hamilton lost the race win, and lost a net 15 points.

> Austria - Hamilton would've probably finished 3rd, I'm going by the order of qualifying. He came 4th in the race, so lost a potential 3 points.

Hence, even after adjusting both drivers' luck, Bottas would've been only 18 points Hamilton. Hamilton has made no mistakes in the race, while Bottas made one, tiny but silly one:

In China, Bottas could've been 2nd, but he spun behind the safety car, came 6th, and lost 10 points.

If not for his China error, Bottas would be only 8 points Hamilton, after adjusting for reliability in qualifying and races. Astounding performance for a newcomer to the team. :thumbup:

The only teammate to be this close to Hamilton in performance was Fernando Alonso.


Errrmmmmm. Didn't Rosberg JUST beat him in the championship ?

But agree with your post. Bottas has been immense , can't wait for the Lewis meltdown IF he gets infront of him on points.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:33 pm 
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DirtyMike wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
I was shocked to see that Bottas is only 15 points behind Hamilton after Austria.

I tried to adjust for bad luck they have suffered in races and qualifying, and here is my guess:

> Spain - Bottas had a car failure from 3rd, lost 15 points.

> Azerbaijan - Hamilton lost the race win, and lost a net 15 points.

> Austria - Hamilton would've probably finished 3rd, I'm going by the order of qualifying. He came 4th in the race, so lost a potential 3 points.

Hence, even after adjusting both drivers' luck, Bottas would've been only 18 points Hamilton. Hamilton has made no mistakes in the race, while Bottas made one, tiny but silly one:

In China, Bottas could've been 2nd, but he spun behind the safety car, came 6th, and lost 10 points.

If not for his China error, Bottas would be only 8 points Hamilton, after adjusting for reliability in qualifying and races. Astounding performance for a newcomer to the team. :thumbup:

The only teammate to be this close to Hamilton in performance was Fernando Alonso.


Errrmmmmm. Didn't Rosberg JUST beat him in the championship ?

But agree with your post. Bottas has been immense , can't wait for the Lewis meltdown IF he gets infront of him on points.


Closer in performance not in points. i don't remember a melt down in 2016 when Rosberg got in front of him so I doubt we would see one if Bottas did.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:51 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
DirtyMike wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
I was shocked to see that Bottas is only 15 points behind Hamilton after Austria.

I tried to adjust for bad luck they have suffered in races and qualifying, and here is my guess:

> Spain - Bottas had a car failure from 3rd, lost 15 points.

> Azerbaijan - Hamilton lost the race win, and lost a net 15 points.

> Austria - Hamilton would've probably finished 3rd, I'm going by the order of qualifying. He came 4th in the race, so lost a potential 3 points.

Hence, even after adjusting both drivers' luck, Bottas would've been only 18 points Hamilton. Hamilton has made no mistakes in the race, while Bottas made one, tiny but silly one:

In China, Bottas could've been 2nd, but he spun behind the safety car, came 6th, and lost 10 points.

If not for his China error, Bottas would be only 8 points Hamilton, after adjusting for reliability in qualifying and races. Astounding performance for a newcomer to the team. :thumbup:

The only teammate to be this close to Hamilton in performance was Fernando Alonso.


Errrmmmmm. Didn't Rosberg JUST beat him in the championship ?

But agree with your post. Bottas has been immense , can't wait for the Lewis meltdown IF he gets infront of him on points.


Closer in performance not in points. i don't remember a melt down in 2016 when Rosberg got in front of him so I doubt we would see one if Bottas did.


O yep because Rosberg was nowhere near him.

Differing circumstances though, he'd already beaten Rosberg the previous years etc.
This year we all know he was thinking there wouldn't be a much of a challenge from his new teammate, all of a sudden he might find himself behind in a year that he thought he'd be the main man. We know he's a 'heart on sleeve' guy...
Just saying, could be entertaining

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:26 pm 
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Valtteri is showing enough ability now to allow Mercedes to get rid of Hamilton either at the end of this season, or when his contract runs out at the end of next season.

I can see this championship turning into a Seb vs. Valtteri battle. Hamilton just doesn't have the consistency, and he has an appalling attitude when things go against him at any point in a race weekend. He was sulking around in front of the cameras at the end of the race again today, and he was equally stroppy during qualifying. Valtteri on the other hand shows uncompromising determination to maximise every result.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:37 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
Valtteri is showing enough ability now to allow Mercedes to get rid of Hamilton either at the end of this season, or when his contract runs out at the end of next season.

I can see this championship turning into a Seb vs. Valtteri battle. Hamilton just doesn't have the consistency, and he has an appalling attitude when things go against him at any point in a race weekend. He was sulking around in front of the cameras at the end of the race again today, and he was equally stroppy during qualifying. Valtteri on the other hand shows uncompromising determination to maximise every result.


Unbiased as usual :)

I'd be pretty downbeat if I knew I was getting a 5 place grid penalty for something that's completely out of my hands, and it follows that it's hard to feel too positive coming in 4th, although he did pick up a couple of places so in that way did better than many today.

You're dreaming if you think Mercedes will 'get rid' of Lewis while they have a viable competitor in Ferrari.

Not taking anything away from Valtteri at all, but you'd probably say they could get rid of Lewis if his team mate was a dog turd.

Why not try supporting someone instead of filling your posts with hate/envy?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Hamilton will never dominate a teammate apart from kovalainen. He's just not good enough. If there was Alonso in that Mercedes he would destroy Bottas just like he did to Massa and would be leading this championship by a comfortable margin.


Last edited by Infinite on Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 4:47 pm 
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TedStriker wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Valtteri is showing enough ability now to allow Mercedes to get rid of Hamilton either at the end of this season, or when his contract runs out at the end of next season.

I can see this championship turning into a Seb vs. Valtteri battle. Hamilton just doesn't have the consistency, and he has an appalling attitude when things go against him at any point in a race weekend. He was sulking around in front of the cameras at the end of the race again today, and he was equally stroppy during qualifying. Valtteri on the other hand shows uncompromising determination to maximise every result.


Unbiased as usual :)

I'd be pretty downbeat if I knew I was getting a 5 place grid penalty for something that's completely out of my hands, and it follows that it's hard to feel too positive coming in 4th, although he did pick up a couple of places so in that way did better than many today.

You're dreaming if you think Mercedes will 'get rid' of Lewis while they have a viable competitor in Ferrari.

Not taking anything away from Valtteri at all, but you'd probably say they could get rid of Lewis if his team mate was a dog turd.

Why not try supporting someone instead of filling your posts with hate/envy?


well said


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:12 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
Ricciardo is just a top notch racer. I never thought Lewis was going to get by, not with the issues he had. He had to wait until the final laps to mount an attack. But earlier in the stint, Ricciardo was lapping just as fast as him and Lewis couldn't make any inroads.
I think Lewis should have gotten by Raikkonen though. That was ridiculous that he didn't.

Bottas being only 15 points down to Hamilton? I don't think that is going to last much longer to be honest. Bottas is usually slow in at least one of his stints. That is going to end up costing him in the long run. Unless Hamilton starts having a bunch of technical issues....


I don't think Hamilton not being able to overtake Kimi was ridicolous, it was never going to happen. I called it before the race you won't see an overtake at the front. All talk about it being a power circuit but the straights are just not long enough and getting on the power out of turn 3 for example is so hard in the dirty air.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:36 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Ricciardo is just a top notch racer. I never thought Lewis was going to get by, not with the issues he had. He had to wait until the final laps to mount an attack. But earlier in the stint, Ricciardo was lapping just as fast as him and Lewis couldn't make any inroads.
I think Lewis should have gotten by Raikkonen though. That was ridiculous that he didn't.

Bottas being only 15 points down to Hamilton? I don't think that is going to last much longer to be honest. Bottas is usually slow in at least one of his stints. That is going to end up costing him in the long run. Unless Hamilton starts having a bunch of technical issues....


I don't think Hamilton not being able to overtake Kimi was ridicolous, it was never going to happen. I called it before the race you won't see an overtake at the front. All talk about it being a power circuit but the straights are just not long enough and getting on the power out of turn 3 for example is so hard in the dirty air.


Valtteri cruised past Kimi within a few corners to take the lead.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:48 pm 
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Looking at this thoroughly, I'd say its more about Hamilton underperforming and not about Bottas being good.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:50 pm 
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MasterRacer wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Ricciardo is just a top notch racer. I never thought Lewis was going to get by, not with the issues he had. He had to wait until the final laps to mount an attack. But earlier in the stint, Ricciardo was lapping just as fast as him and Lewis couldn't make any inroads.
I think Lewis should have gotten by Raikkonen though. That was ridiculous that he didn't.

Bottas being only 15 points down to Hamilton? I don't think that is going to last much longer to be honest. Bottas is usually slow in at least one of his stints. That is going to end up costing him in the long run. Unless Hamilton starts having a bunch of technical issues....


I don't think Hamilton not being able to overtake Kimi was ridicolous, it was never going to happen. I called it before the race you won't see an overtake at the front. All talk about it being a power circuit but the straights are just not long enough and getting on the power out of turn 3 for example is so hard in the dirty air.


Valtteri cruised past Kimi within a few corners to take the lead.


Do I really need to reply to this? Did you watch the race?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:17 pm 
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It's still too early to tell how Bottas will stack up. He is definitely not a doormat like Kovalainen and he already seems to be approximately at Rosberg's level in relation to Lewis. He can match or beat Hamilton at times, but he is still generally slower on an average day. There is some indication that he is gathering momentum though, finishing 2nd, 2nd, 1st in the last 3 races. This includes a great recovery drive in Baku and a competent win from pole today.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:36 pm 
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So Hamilton has back to back reliability issues with his car and we get this, Bottas was a lot slower than Hamilton in Baku, whilst in Austria despite Hamilton starting 8th and being held up by several cars he only finished 7 seconds behind Bottas who had a clear track and was basically having to drive flat out because of Vettel.

If Hamilton continues to have reliability issues with his car then yes Bottas may well beat him much like Rosberg did last year for the same reason.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:38 pm 
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Bottas is a bit too hit and miss. He was nowhere in Canada and Baku pace wise compared to Lewis and even today he was only half a dozen seconds up the road despite being on pole and Lewis 8th.

I thought he was good this weekend, and in Russia, don't get me wrong but I'm not convinced at all it's as close as the points make out. Lewis would have walked the 25pts in Baku and Bottas was lucky it was such a manic race with several cars that would have finished ahead not there allowing him to recover to the podium instead of the lower top 10.

Lewis looked quicker than Bottas here apart from the first run in Q3 so could easily have won both these races without the bad luck.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:54 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Bottas is a bit too hit and miss. He was nowhere in Canada and Baku pace wise compared to Lewis and even today he was only half a dozen seconds up the road despite being on pole and Lewis 8th.

I thought he was good this weekend, and in Russia, don't get me wrong but I'm not convinced at all it's as close as the points make out. Lewis would have walked the 25pts in Baku and Bottas was lucky it was such a manic race with several cars that would have finished ahead not there allowing him to recover to the podium instead of the lower top 10.

Lewis looked quicker than Bottas here apart from the first run in Q3 so could easily have won both these races without the bad luck.


To me, Lewis didn't look quicker than Bottas here. Was the situation reverse, it would be the usual "The leader controlled the race". Why not here? Yes, Vettel did close on Bottas in last few laps, but Bottas was never in the situation to be actually challenged. And Lewis, he managed to mount one serious attack on Ricciardo in the very end when you give all you got.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:56 pm 
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Judging by Hamilton's pace earlier on in the race and the fact he did struggle to overtake quite a few slower cars, I'm not totally sure if he would have won. I think Vettel and Bottas will have given him a very hard time. If there were no team orders involved, since Ricciardo managed to hold Hamilton behind him, I see no reason why Bottas wouldn't. He managed to keep a much faster Vettel behind. Bottas is very good at defending. If Hamilton started 3rd today, considering how good Bottas's start and first stint was, I think he'll have just about managed to beat Hamilton. Just not by much. Bottas did have the 16th fastest pit stop time and was well behind most of the leaders. This may have cost him a little time too. Hamilton looked better in the race in Baku, clearly. But here, Bottas was certainly better in qualifying and overall a little better in the race too IMO.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:13 pm 
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Bottas has been too inconsistent regarding his race pace. In Bahrain and Spain he was nowhere and even his two best performances of the season he had stints which wasn't brilliant. Qualifying I think he has been really good.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:57 pm 
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DirtyMike wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
I was shocked to see that Bottas is only 15 points behind Hamilton after Austria.

I tried to adjust for bad luck they have suffered in races and qualifying, and here is my guess:

> Spain - Bottas had a car failure from 3rd, lost 15 points.

> Azerbaijan - Hamilton lost the race win, and lost a net 15 points.

> Austria - Hamilton would've probably finished 3rd, I'm going by the order of qualifying. He came 4th in the race, so lost a potential 3 points.

Hence, even after adjusting both drivers' luck, Bottas would've been only 18 points Hamilton. Hamilton has made no mistakes in the race, while Bottas made one, tiny but silly one:

In China, Bottas could've been 2nd, but he spun behind the safety car, came 6th, and lost 10 points.

If not for his China error, Bottas would be only 8 points Hamilton, after adjusting for reliability in qualifying and races. Astounding performance for a newcomer to the team. :thumbup:

The only teammate to be this close to Hamilton in performance was Fernando Alonso.


Errrmmmmm. Didn't Rosberg JUST beat him in the championship ?

But agree with your post. Bottas has been immense , can't wait for the Lewis meltdown IF he gets infront of him on points.


I said "The only teammate this close to Hamilton in performance". As glad as I was that Rosberg beat Hamilton, we should leave the semantics out. Hamilton still was the driver with higher performance last year, although to his credit, Rosberg worked so hard on his racecraft, consistency and mental strength, that just a little worse luck for Hamilton was enough to get Rosberg the championship.

In 2011, Button beat Hamilton when Hamilton was clearly in cuckoo-land in his head.

Alonso, for me, still remains the only driver to beat or match Hamilton over a season. I know Hamilton was a rookie, but if you look at the facts:

> Hamilton had tested the car and tyres WAY more than Alonso had, before Alonso even joined the team.

> While Alonso got some favouritism in the beginning, Hamilton got as much, if not more, later.

> 2007 remains Hamilton's most consistent season probably, and Alonso's one of the least.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:48 pm 
MasterRacer wrote:
Valtteri is showing enough ability now to allow Mercedes to get rid of Hamilton either at the end of this season, or when his contract runs out at the end of next season.

I can see this championship turning into a Seb vs. Valtteri battle. Hamilton just doesn't have the consistency, and he has an appalling attitude when things go against him at any point in a race weekend. He was sulking around in front of the cameras at the end of the race again today, and he was equally stroppy during qualifying. Valtteri on the other hand shows uncompromising determination to maximise every result.


How short is your memory? Bottas was out qualified in 2 of the last 3 races by 0.5 and 0.7 to Hamilton :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:01 pm 
Bottas is having a good season but both drivers have been a little inconsistent. Bottas slightly more so.

Also, Hamilton hasn't had any good luck this year whilst Bottas had very good fortune in Baku. He involved himself in a silly crash on lap 1, went 1.5 laps down and multiple SC's brought him back into play as well as 7 cars dropping out in front of him for varying reasons.

Hamilton would be 18 points better off in Baku too, because Bottas would lose 3 points dropping to 3rd.

Therefore
Bottas +15 and -3
Hamilton +15
Would give
Bottas: 151
Hamilton: 169

It is always going to be close with Bottas in points because its 3 drivers into 3 positions, if none have trouble. Kimi isn't quick enough at the moment to mix it with these three and neither are the Red Bulls

2nd was definitely possible today for Hamilton too, he had a chance to undercut Vettel today if he started 3rd, he might have also started higher - it seems likely his setup and practise running would have been geared a little more toward the race than qualifying knowing he was starting at best 6th.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:34 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Bottas is a bit too hit and miss. He was nowhere in Canada and Baku pace wise compared to Lewis and even today he was only half a dozen seconds up the road despite being on pole and Lewis 8th.

I thought he was good this weekend, and in Russia, don't get me wrong but I'm not convinced at all it's as close as the points make out. Lewis would have walked the 25pts in Baku and Bottas was lucky it was such a manic race with several cars that would have finished ahead not there allowing him to recover to the podium instead of the lower top 10.

Lewis looked quicker than Bottas here apart from the first run in Q3 so could easily have won both these races without the bad luck.


To me, Lewis didn't look quicker than Bottas here. Was the situation reverse, it would be the usual "The leader controlled the race". Why not here? Yes, Vettel did close on Bottas in last few laps, but Bottas was never in the situation to be actually challenged. And Lewis, he managed to mount one serious attack on Ricciardo in the very end when you give all you got.

Do you seriously believe that Bottas wanted Vettel to be that close to him, that's not controlling a race whilst cruising.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:37 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Judging by Hamilton's pace earlier on in the race and the fact he did struggle to overtake quite a few slower cars, I'm not totally sure if he would have won. I think Vettel and Bottas will have given him a very hard time. If there were no team orders involved, since Ricciardo managed to hold Hamilton behind him, I see no reason why Bottas wouldn't. He managed to keep a much faster Vettel behind. Bottas is very good at defending. If Hamilton started 3rd today, considering how good Bottas's start and first stint was, I think he'll have just about managed to beat Hamilton. Just not by much. Bottas did have the 16th fastest pit stop time and was well behind most of the leaders. This may have cost him a little time too. Hamilton looked better in the race in Baku, clearly. But here, Bottas was certainly better in qualifying and overall a little better in the race too IMO.

You are merely talking about track position, Bottas should have been long gone, it was surprising to see both Bottas and Hamilton in the same screen shot in the closing laps of the race.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:39 pm 
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lamo wrote:
MasterRacer wrote:
Valtteri is showing enough ability now to allow Mercedes to get rid of Hamilton either at the end of this season, or when his contract runs out at the end of next season.

I can see this championship turning into a Seb vs. Valtteri battle. Hamilton just doesn't have the consistency, and he has an appalling attitude when things go against him at any point in a race weekend. He was sulking around in front of the cameras at the end of the race again today, and he was equally stroppy during qualifying. Valtteri on the other hand shows uncompromising determination to maximise every result.


How short is your memory? Bottas was out qualified in 2 of the last 3 races by 0.5 and 0.7 to Hamilton :lol:

Also Bottas has only been better than Hamilton in 2 of the 9 races.

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2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 9th

Win: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podium: 2nd Barcelona 2018 and Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:47 pm 
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Its hard to assess as I'm not sure Hamilton is sustaining top form just now. He is sublime one week, average the next.

When on song, Hamilton appears quite comfortable in beating Bottas.


Last edited by Badgeronimous on Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:49 pm 
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Prema wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Bottas is a bit too hit and miss. He was nowhere in Canada and Baku pace wise compared to Lewis and even today he was only half a dozen seconds up the road despite being on pole and Lewis 8th.

I thought he was good this weekend, and in Russia, don't get me wrong but I'm not convinced at all it's as close as the points make out. Lewis would have walked the 25pts in Baku and Bottas was lucky it was such a manic race with several cars that would have finished ahead not there allowing him to recover to the podium instead of the lower top 10.

Lewis looked quicker than Bottas here apart from the first run in Q3 so could easily have won both these races without the bad luck.


To me, Lewis didn't look quicker than Bottas here. Was the situation reverse, it would be the usual "The leader controlled the race". Why not here? Yes, Vettel did close on Bottas in last few laps, but Bottas was never in the situation to be actually challenged. And Lewis, he managed to mount one serious attack on Ricciardo in the very end when you give all you got.


Maybe, I thought Lewis looked quicker but they did both have 1 great stint and 1 avg/good stint. Interestingly on different tyres but in the same stint, Bottas on US and Lewis on SS.

I guess you could argue Bottas was just controlling the race in that stint but Seb looked far too close for comfort for me. But it was kinda 1 stint each so I wouldn't say for definite Lewis would have won without the gearbox issue but I think he'd have been well placed to carry on his recent form without it.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:52 pm 
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
DirtyMike wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
I was shocked to see that Bottas is only 15 points behind Hamilton after Austria.

I tried to adjust for bad luck they have suffered in races and qualifying, and here is my guess:

> Spain - Bottas had a car failure from 3rd, lost 15 points.

> Azerbaijan - Hamilton lost the race win, and lost a net 15 points.

> Austria - Hamilton would've probably finished 3rd, I'm going by the order of qualifying. He came 4th in the race, so lost a potential 3 points.

Hence, even after adjusting both drivers' luck, Bottas would've been only 18 points Hamilton. Hamilton has made no mistakes in the race, while Bottas made one, tiny but silly one:

In China, Bottas could've been 2nd, but he spun behind the safety car, came 6th, and lost 10 points.

If not for his China error, Bottas would be only 8 points Hamilton, after adjusting for reliability in qualifying and races. Astounding performance for a newcomer to the team. :thumbup:

The only teammate to be this close to Hamilton in performance was Fernando Alonso.


Errrmmmmm. Didn't Rosberg JUST beat him in the championship ?

But agree with your post. Bottas has been immense , can't wait for the Lewis meltdown IF he gets infront of him on points.


I said "The only teammate this close to Hamilton in performance". As glad as I was that Rosberg beat Hamilton, we should leave the semantics out. Hamilton still was the driver with higher performance last year, although to his credit, Rosberg worked so hard on his racecraft, consistency and mental strength, that just a little worse luck for Hamilton was enough to get Rosberg the championship.

In 2011, Button beat Hamilton when Hamilton was clearly in cuckoo-land in his head.

Alonso, for me, still remains the only driver to beat or match Hamilton over a season. I know Hamilton was a rookie, but if you look at the facts:

> Hamilton had tested the car and tyres WAY more than Alonso had, before Alonso even joined the team.

> While Alonso got some favouritism in the beginning, Hamilton got as much, if not more, later.

> 2007 remains Hamilton's most consistent season probably, and Alonso's one of the least.


Hamilton hadn't tested the tyres way more than Alonso. Mclaren switched from Michelin to Bridgestone for 2007, they had an equal amount of testing on them.

Hamilton had done some testing in the 2006 car on Michelins but he never did as much as people make out, he was racing full time in GP2. Mclaren had two full time test drivers - Wurz and Pedro Delarosa over 2005 and 2006. He did less than other rookies at the time, such as Rosberg, Kovalainen and Nelson Piquet Jnr. Kovalainen holds the record for most mileage as a test driver before debut by quite some distance.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:16 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Ricciardo is just a top notch racer. I never thought Lewis was going to get by, not with the issues he had. He had to wait until the final laps to mount an attack. But earlier in the stint, Ricciardo was lapping just as fast as him and Lewis couldn't make any inroads.
I think Lewis should have gotten by Raikkonen though. That was ridiculous that he didn't.

Bottas being only 15 points down to Hamilton? I don't think that is going to last much longer to be honest. Bottas is usually slow in at least one of his stints. That is going to end up costing him in the long run. Unless Hamilton starts having a bunch of technical issues....


I don't think Hamilton not being able to overtake Kimi was ridicolous, it was never going to happen. I called it before the race you won't see an overtake at the front. All talk about it being a power circuit but the straights are just not long enough and getting on the power out of turn 3 for example is so hard in the dirty air.


Hamilton was quite a bit quicker than Kimi at that stage and Kimi was dealing with an issue. I found it shocking that Lewis couldn't overtake him. After all, Bottas just cruised by Kimi, albeit when he had much newer tires. But still.

This wasn't one of Hamilton's best efforts. That's for sure.


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