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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:57 pm 
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Never realized until I read this elsewhere.
These stats are so mindblowing, can it be anything but superior car design?

  • 95% of races won from the first two rows
  • insane amount of pole positions
  • two runs of 4 consecutive wins
  • four runs of more than consecutive 6 pole positions
  • 24 consecutive front rows
  • two runs of 4 races leading every lap of a race

Even worse, is it the beginning of the end for F1?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:15 pm 
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Adrian Newey and a great driver are tough to beat.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:22 pm 
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The car has to be capable of it but so does the driver. Its a combination one couldn't work without the over.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:41 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The car has to be capable of it but so does the driver. Its a combination one couldn't work without the over.


But the more capable the car is, the less capable the driver needs to be.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:46 pm 
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And now, please post Mark Webber's statistics in the same cars.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:48 pm 
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We're talking about Sato, right?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:49 pm 
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Great car is nothing without the great driver.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:54 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
And now, please post Mark Webber's statistics in the same cars.


I think this is Red Bull in general not just Vettel (I may be wrong )

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:00 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
And now, please post Mark Webber's statistics in the same cars.


Webber has never been a great driver though, he was a journeyman who had a few good qually sessions before the Newey machine got going.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:02 pm 
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etchedchaos wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
And now, please post Mark Webber's statistics in the same cars.


Webber has never been a great driver though, he was a journeyman who had a few good qually sessions before the Newey machine got going.

So you mean an average driver hasn't been able to win championships in a dominant car? You don't say.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:03 pm 
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No need to hate. Great car needs a great driver and a great team. i think 2012 was a true example of this. The past 2-3 seasons have been kinda boring with the quickest car at the beginning of the season going on to win the championship, this year however was a show of true class. Although mclaren was the best car for at least a third of the season, none of their drivers is in the top 3 fighting for the championship and its third in points behind ferrari which has struggled through out the season.
Just goes to show its not all about the car.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:10 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
etchedchaos wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
And now, please post Mark Webber's statistics in the same cars.


Webber has never been a great driver though, he was a journeyman who had a few good qually sessions before the Newey machine got going.

So you mean an average driver hasn't been able to win championships in a dominant car? You don't say.


Funny, you can't seem to make up your mind about what you stance is on this argument. First you try to defend Webber when I point out he's never been much more than a journeyman with one-lap speed you get all sarcastic.

Historically whenever a team has a dominant car and a defacto #1 (and yes Vettel is the RB #1) the #2 rarely if ever has tremendous stats. It's just how it is when the team is built for one guy.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:13 pm 
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Where did I "defend Webber"?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:14 pm 
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etchedchaos wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
etchedchaos wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
And now, please post Mark Webber's statistics in the same cars.


Webber has never been a great driver though, he was a journeyman who had a few good qually sessions before the Newey machine got going.

So you mean an average driver hasn't been able to win championships in a dominant car? You don't say.


Funny, you can't seem to make up your mind about what you stance is on this argument. First you try to defend Webber when I point out he's never been much more than a journeyman with one-lap speed you get all sarcastic.

Historically whenever a team has a dominant car and a defacto #1 (and yes Vettel is the RB #1) the #2 rarely if ever has tremendous stats. It's just how it is when the team is built for one guy.

Speaking of teams built around one driver. How's Alonso doing?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:17 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Where did I "defend Webber"?


My mistake, it's a pro-Vettel line, sleep deprivation is playing havoc with my reading comprehension.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:28 pm 
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Some essential numbers for Red Bull, McLaren and Ferrari drivers from the start of the 2010 season until and including 2012 Indian GP.

Pole positions
Vettel 30
Webber 10
Hamilton 7
Alonso 4
Button 1
Massa 0


Fastest laps
Webber 11
Vettel 10
Hamilton 8
Alonso 6
Button 6
Massa 2


Wins
Vettel 21
Hamilton 9
Alonso 9
Webber 7
Button 7
Massa 0


Podium finishes
Vettel 35
Alonso 30
Webber 24
Button 24
Hamilton 21
Massa 6


Points
Vettel 888
Alonso 736
Webber 667
Hamilton 632
Button 625
Massa 351

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:31 pm 
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I dont believe Webber gets a fair crack of the whip at Red Bull.

Just my opinion...


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:33 pm 
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RaisinChips wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The car has to be capable of it but so does the driver. Its a combination one couldn't work without the over.


But the more capable the car is, the less capable the driver needs to be.


So what are you basing your assumption that vettel is less capable of a driver than anyone else on the grid?


It's always a combination of the two. If it was just Adrian than you would have seen him dominate from the time he came into f1. When in reality vettel has better stats from his entrance to f1 than Adrian has since his entrance.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:34 pm 
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etchedchaos wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
And now, please post Mark Webber's statistics in the same cars.


Webber has never been a great driver though, he was a journeyman who had a few good qually sessions before the Newey machine got going.


So you agree you need to be a great driver to be very successful even in a dominant car?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:37 pm 
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Caravaggio wrote:
I dont believe Webber gets a fair crack of the whip at Red Bull.

Just my opinion...


And why do you think Red Bull chose not to give him a "fair crack"?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:38 pm 
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RaisinChips wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The car has to be capable of it but so does the driver. Its a combination one couldn't work without the over.


But the more capable the car is, the less capable the driver needs to be.


Agreed but as the Red Bulls Vettel has driven have not enjoyed the pace advantage that other dominant cars have had in the past the driver still has to do a fair bit of work.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:43 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
etchedchaos wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
And now, please post Mark Webber's statistics in the same cars.


Webber has never been a great driver though, he was a journeyman who had a few good qually sessions before the Newey machine got going.


So you agree you need to be a great driver to be very successful even in a dominant car?


That's nothing like what i said. A journeyman driver generally means he's about average, so above average would be enough in a dominant car.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:46 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Caravaggio wrote:
I dont believe Webber gets a fair crack of the whip at Red Bull.

Just my opinion...


And why do you think Red Bull chose not to give him a "fair crack"?


Youd have to ask the owners of the team to find that one out.
I dont think its rocket science though.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:48 pm 
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etchedchaos wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
etchedchaos wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
And now, please post Mark Webber's statistics in the same cars.


Webber has never been a great driver though, he was a journeyman who had a few good qually sessions before the Newey machine got going.


So you agree you need to be a great driver to be very successful even in a dominant car?


That's nothing like what i said. A journeyman driver generally means he's about average, so above average would be enough in a dominant car.


You think Webber is only the 10-14th best driver out there? I would say he's in the top 6 which makes him at least a good driver meaning you would have to be a very good driver to beat him. Anyway no driver who is not great wins three tittles let alone in a row before the age of 26!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:48 pm 
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resistance is futile, the arguments never change regardless of facts lol

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:51 pm 
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With the teams full backing and a inferior team mate, Webber would have won the title in 2010 and 2011. Hell, he nearly did it anyway in 10.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:52 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
etchedchaos wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
etchedchaos wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
And now, please post Mark Webber's statistics in the same cars.


Webber has never been a great driver though, he was a journeyman who had a few good qually sessions before the Newey machine got going.


So you agree you need to be a great driver to be very successful even in a dominant car?


That's nothing like what i said. A journeyman driver generally means he's about average, so above average would be enough in a dominant car.


You think Webber is only the 10-14th best driver out there? I would say he's in the top 6 which makes him at least a good driver meaning you would have to be a very good driver to beat him. Anyway no driver who is not great wins three tittles let alone in a row before the age of 26!


Webber has never been in the top 6 prior to 2009, he was ok at times, good at putting a quick qually lap but nothing much more. Suddenly Newey builds a quick car and he's top 6. All thse new Red Bull fans need to look at results before 2009.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:55 pm 
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etchedchaos wrote:

Webber has never been in the top 6 prior to 2009, he was ok at times, good at putting a quick qually lap but nothing much more. Suddenly Newey builds a quick car and he's top 6. All thse new Red Bull fans need to look at results before 2009.

Just curious, how do you feel about JB?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:56 pm 
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etchedchaos wrote:
All thse new Red Bull fans need to look at results before 2009.


Same can be said for all these people saying its all Adrian


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:59 pm 
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Newey joins Red Bull in 2006. Vettel joins Red Bull in 2009. When does Red Bull start all the winning?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:59 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
etchedchaos wrote:

Webber has never been in the top 6 prior to 2009, he was ok at times, good at putting a quick qually lap but nothing much more. Suddenly Newey builds a quick car and he's top 6. All thse new Red Bull fans need to look at results before 2009.

Just curious, how do you feel about JB?


Jenson on his day is a match for anyone, the problem is his day requires an incredibly stable and well-balanced car. Won't give you many brainfarts, a solid driver who at times has shown alot more. Unlike Webber he had shown a semblance of top tier talent before 09, I dare say he'd push Vettel alot harder if he was in the other Red Bull, what with the car being one stable machine.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:00 pm 
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Floppy_Boy wrote:
Newey joins Red Bull in 2006. Vettel joins Red Bull in 2009. When does Red Bull start all the winning?


Ohh ... I know ... I know .... Call on me ... I know :D


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:00 pm 
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etchedchaos wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
etchedchaos wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
etchedchaos wrote:
]And now, please post Mark Webber's statistics in the same cars.


Webber has never been a great driver though, he was a journeyman who had a few good qually sessions before the Newey machine got going.


So you agree you need to be a great driver to be very successful even in a dominant car?


That's nothing like what i said. A journeyman driver generally means he's about average, so above average would be enough in a dominant car.



Webber has never been in the top 6 prior to 2009, he was ok at times, good at putting a quick qually lap but nothing much more. Suddenly Newey builds a quick car and he's top 6. All thse new Red Bull fans need to look at results before 2009.


Webber was probably in the top 6 in tearms of talent before 2009 just never had the machinery to prove it. and I am nobody's fan.
If were talking pre 2009 how many tittles had Newey won in the few years before then without Vettel?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:02 pm 
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Floppy_Boy wrote:
Newey joins Red Bull in 2006. Vettel joins Red Bull in 2009. When does Red Bull start all the winning?


Newey has always been strongest when the regulations change. Not to mention you don't get success overnight even with Newey at the helm, they needed to build a team around him and make the right investments. Also, there was the whole McLaren and Ferrari stranglehold at the time, and there was little scope in the regs to jump them. The Regs change and suddenly Red Bull are competing at the top and then dominating, this is not because of Vettel.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:04 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
If were talking pre 2009 how many tittles had Newey won in the few years before then without Vettel?


You mean like the titles with Williams and McLaren? Newey even laid the groundwork for the 07/08 McLaren's which were based off his 05 endeavour, which whilst unreliable was a rocketship.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:05 pm 
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It is pretty much getting back to the 'old days' of MS RB and co at Ferrari. It was usually a foregone conclusion who was going to win before the start, which it seems to be becoming again.

Now as several drivers and team leaders have said, it is not their job to slow down, it is up to the others to catch them.
Unfortunately, I dont think todays regs allow much other than aero to be improved, and the king of aero is designing the runaway car.

It would keep a bit of interest if it was unreliable, or if the two team mates raced eachother, but that is not the case either.
We will just have to wait for one side of the equation to change, as it has before.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Webber was probably in the top 6 in tearms of talent before 2009 just never had the machinery to prove it. and I am nobody's fan.
If were talking pre 2009 how many tittles had Newey won in the few years before then without Vettel?


Top 6 before 09? Button, Kimi, Hamilton, Alonso, Kubica and Massa were considered faster than him, and he split seasons with DC who was on his way out. Then you had Schumi and Montoya in 06 who were faster than him.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:10 pm 
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moby wrote:
It is pretty much getting back to the 'old days' of MS RB and co at Ferrari. It was usually a foregone conclusion who was going to win before the start, which it seems to be becoming again.

Now as several drivers and team leaders have said, it is not their job to slow down, it is up to the others to catch them.
Unfortunately, I dont think todays regs allow much other than aero to be improved, and the king of aero is designing the runaway car.

It would keep a bit of interest if it was unreliable, or if the two team mates raced eachother, but that is not the case either.
We will just have to wait for one side of the equation to change, as it has before.

Aero isn't everything. In fact I bet RBR has gained more from their rear suspension changes than any aero updates.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:14 pm 
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Bakerking31 wrote:
RaisinChips wrote:
But the more capable the car is, the less capable the driver needs to be.


So what are you basing your assumption that vettel is less capable of a driver than anyone else on the grid?


That's not what I've said. But it's clear that the more capable the car then a wider range of drivers could achieve results with it. Of course it can't be laboratory-tested (because that's the nature of history) but many drivers could have won the title with the 2004 Ferrari, whereas fewer could have done the same with the 1986 McLaren. The further the car is ahead of its rivals the less complete the driver needs to be to achieve the same result.

Bakerking31 wrote:
It's always a combination of the two. If it was just Adrian than you would have seen him dominate from the time he came into f1. When in reality vettel has better stats from his entrance to f1 than Adrian has since his entrance.



Newey is probably the best designer in F1, certainly of the past 20 years or so, and has designed championship winning cars for three different teams and won titles with different drivers, a form of diversity which shows that he appears less dependent on exactly who is driving the car than some other designers. But the stats of a driver and designer are not comparable as such since they have completely different roles within the sport. And Vettel has won his titles in Newey-designed cars.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:15 pm 
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moby wrote:
It is pretty much getting back to the 'old days' of MS RB and co at Ferrari. It was usually a foregone conclusion who was going to win before the start, which it seems to be becoming again.

Now as several drivers and team leaders have said, it is not their job to slow down, it is up to the others to catch them.
Unfortunately, I dont think todays regs allow much other than aero to be improved, and the king of aero is designing the runaway car.

It would keep a bit of interest if it was unreliable, or if the two team mates raced eachother, but that is not the case either.
We will just have to wait for one side of the equation to change, as it has before.

What do you mean they dont race each other?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx9zIQvrdZU


Webber is not in the same league as Vettel as far as driving skill goes, when they do get near each other I have yet to see a team order with Redbull telling them not to race each other.


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