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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:44 pm 
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Something like 110 pts off the WCC is not good enough


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:44 pm 
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AFCTUJacko wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
no individual is to blame, its just that McLaren are collectively a fairy cakes team


A fairy cakes team that wins grand prixs every year.....right.

They make too many mistakes/have too many failures to win a title at the moment. But to call them a fairy cakes team IS a joke...

This sabotage thing is also outrageous. The points lost today could cost the team millions of dollars in constructors prize money. Of course they did it on purpose :o


They've probably thrown away as many wins this year than they've actually had. China, Spain, arguably Valencia, Singapore, and Abu Dhabi.

And how many WCCs have they won in the last 20 years? compared to their rivals Ferrari and Red Bull, hell in a list of most successful teams in the last 10 years Brawn GP, a team that lasted for 1 season, would be ranked higher.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 8 years McLaren continue their current form and fail to win a single WCC or WDC

With the car they've had Hamilton should have won the WDC and McLaren should have won the WCC, but they havent won either, not even close. Why is this? Poor tactics, poor mechanics, poor organisation & poor reliability

Also the team have made some really purely dumb errors, Monaco leaving Button's radiator plug in, Spain putting Hamilton's refueling rig on remove fuel instead of add fuel the list could go on and on


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:54 pm 
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Shocking season,let down both their drivers at some point,mainly Hamilton though,they should have been at the sharp end fighting for both championships instead of scrapping for 3rd in the constructors,I can understand Hamilton leaving even for what may be a slower car.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 3:57 pm 
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i'm thinking lewis will not do any worse next year - how can he lol


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:00 pm 
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Think Lewis will be glad to be walking away from them for 2013


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:12 pm 
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GB-fan wrote:
Think Lewis will be glad to be walking away from them for 2013

I don't know if Mercedes is better choice. Maybe if Brawn pulls out another Brawn GP. But I don't see that coming. Not much will change in the cars next season, so Mercedes has a caught up but McLaren, RedBull, Ferrari and Lotus are not standing still.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:13 pm 
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wonder81 wrote:
Something like 110 pts off the WCC is not good enough


They lost 68 alone in the last 6 races with mechanical DNFs. Twice Hamilton in the lead and Button from 2nd in Italy. Red Bull also moved up about 10 points, so its a net loss of about 78 points.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 4:17 pm 
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8romeo wrote:
Miffy wrote:
It's just bad luck really, no one at McLaren was to blame for that.

Engines are old now.


somehow Button's engine and car seems to work very well, I quess he will finish this championship ahead o Hamilton, That seems to be Mclaren's objective for the rest of the season.

Well same happened to Kimi back in Mclaren days and i'm sure they wanted Kimi to take the WDC. They were so close.

It's bad luck and old engines.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:03 pm 
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Fuel pump failure I believe, mechanical not electrical. Gary Anderson said the fuel pump drive shaft is vulnerable if the engine moves too much in relation to the fuel tank, this occurs most often when being too aggressive over the kerbs.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:04 pm 
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viariani wrote:
Fuel pump failure I believe, mechanical not electrical. Gary Anderson said the fuel pump drive shaft is vulnerable if the engine moves too much in relation to the fuel tank, this occurs most often when being too aggressive over the kerbs.


Then they must adapt their car to not be so ridiculously stiff as Button suffered the same issue in Monza


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:08 pm 
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viariani wrote:
Fuel pump failure I believe, mechanical not electrical. Gary Anderson said the fuel pump drive shaft is vulnerable if the engine moves too much in relation to the fuel tank, this occurs most often when being too aggressive over the kerbs.


Only the kerbs at Abu Dhabi aren't that bad, if this was India then yea, understandable.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:11 pm 
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But there were new kerb inserts this year I believe, an orange block mid apex? Saw something on the qualifying show, Lewis said to steer clear of them.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:23 pm 
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This season for McLaren is a little reminiscent of 2005: Probably the quickest car on more circuits than any of their opposition while Fernando has good speed, great reliability and is usually there to benefit from their failures. The other factor in the mix here is Vettel and Red Bull with a mixed bag of speed and reliability.

Though I feel sorry for Lewis and McLaren, there is perhaps some ironic justice in Kimi benefiting from a McLaren technical failure.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Well from Hamilton's perspective, his decision to go elsewhere has been reinforced by what has happened this year. Hamilton has driven brilliantly and the car has had great pace most of the time. The team has just been a mess. From losing huge chunks of time in the pits in the first half of the season (including losing the lead in Malaysia), to failing to put the correct amount of fuel in the car during a qualifying session in Barcelona where Hamilton was by far the fastest, to having two mechanical failures from first place, the list goes on and on.

There are at least 10 races this season where Hamilton has been hurt by team errors and/or reliability problems. That's just insane! There are a minimum of 3 races where team errors and/or unreliability have cost him a win and about 3 other races where the win would have been possible without these issues.

He had to get out of there. I don't know if Merc is the answer but he's wasting his time with this team.


On a side note: Vettel would be stupid to leave Red Bull. They are clearly the class of the field and have been for 3+ years now.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Overall? Nah, they are the second most successful team in F1 and have won races like clockwork for the past decade and a half.

This year? Oh hell yes, they only have themselves to blame for not being in the WCC and WDC hunt. While I do not agree they have had the fastest car all year they did have periods of it that we're squandered due to pit stop problems, suicidal strategies and mechanical mishaps. Yet what has made it worse is that all this crap has happened at weekends they have looked in contention so the points value they have lost is huge. Lewis has looked incredible all year and aside from mid season blues Jenson has looked reasonable enough to score consistent points and podiums yet both drivers have been victim to McLaren's incompetance. Bad luck happens I know but this year has been to much and unless something changes next year I must say it looks like they could do with a restructure.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:41 pm 
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@FormulaFun, that radiator plug was a classic, thanks for reminding me of that, quite funny thinking back, so poor it's unreal.

If Lewis is as quick as many think he is next year might not be that bad for him (don't expect WDC) but it cant be too much worse that this shambles.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:46 pm 
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They threw away more points than they earned, at least on Hamiltons side. It will hunt them back in the years to come if you don't use such opportuities they maybe never come back.Usually the management should be fired at least the TP.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:51 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
AFCTUJacko wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
no individual is to blame, its just that McLaren are collectively a fairy cakes team


A fairy cakes team that wins grand prixs every year.....right.

They make too many mistakes/have too many failures to win a title at the moment. But to call them a fairy cakes team IS a joke...

This sabotage thing is also outrageous. The points lost today could cost the team millions of dollars in constructors prize money. Of course they did it on purpose :o


They've probably thrown away as many wins this year than they've actually had. China, Spain, arguably Valencia, Singapore, and Abu Dhabi.

And how many WCCs have they won in the last 20 years? compared to their rivals Ferrari and Red Bull, hell in a list of most successful teams in the last 10 years Brawn GP, a team that lasted for 1 season, would be ranked higher.

I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 8 years McLaren continue their current form and fail to win a single WCC or WDC

With the car they've had Hamilton should have won the WDC and McLaren should have won the WCC, but they havent won either, not even close. Why is this? Poor tactics, poor mechanics, poor organisation & poor reliability

Also the team have made some really purely dumb errors, Monaco leaving Button's radiator plug in, Spain putting Hamilton's refueling rig on remove fuel instead of add fuel the list could go on and on


I completely agree that they are underachieving, but the OP labelled them a joke, which is just bull.

If McLaren are a joke then what the hell are Mercedes for example?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 5:55 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
viariani wrote:
Fuel pump failure I believe, mechanical not electrical. Gary Anderson said the fuel pump drive shaft is vulnerable if the engine moves too much in relation to the fuel tank, this occurs most often when being too aggressive over the kerbs.


Then they must adapt their car to not be so ridiculously stiff as Button suffered the same issue in Monza


MW was asked on the BBC F1 Forum if it was the same problem that Button had suffered and he said it wasn't, it was a different issue.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:06 pm 
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Miffy wrote:
Emerson.F wrote:
8romeo wrote:
Miffy wrote:
It's just bad luck really, no one at McLaren was to blame for that.

Engines are old now.


*somehow Button's engine and car seems to work very well*, I quess he will finish this championship ahead o Hamilton, That seems to be Mclaren's objective for the rest of the season.


this


Maybe Button is too slow to wear his engines out as fast lol.

*Errm, this is only Lewis' 2nd mechanical DNF and Jenson has also had 1 in Italy.

*I'm guessing that was written as a dig at Button, but perhaps it's the way Jenson drives that is the reason he hasn't had the same issues as Lewis?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:08 pm 
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viariani wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
viariani wrote:
Fuel pump failure I believe, mechanical not electrical. Gary Anderson said the fuel pump drive shaft is vulnerable if the engine moves too much in relation to the fuel tank, this occurs most often when being too aggressive over the kerbs.


Then they must adapt their car to not be so ridiculously stiff as Button suffered the same issue in Monza


MW was asked on the BBC F1 Forum if it was the same problem that Button had suffered and he said it wasn't, it was a different issue.


I think if McLaren have suffered 2 separate fuel pump issues that's an even bigger worry


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:22 pm 
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minchy wrote:
Miffy wrote:
Emerson.F wrote:
8romeo wrote:
Miffy wrote:
It's just bad luck really, no one at McLaren was to blame for that.

Engines are old now.


*somehow Button's engine and car seems to work very well*, I quess he will finish this championship ahead o Hamilton, That seems to be Mclaren's objective for the rest of the season.


this


Maybe Button is too slow to wear his engines out as fast lol.

*Errm, this is only Lewis' 2nd mechanical DNF and Jenson has also had 1 in Italy.

*I'm guessing that was written as a dig at Button, but perhaps it's the way Jenson drives that is the reason he hasn't had the same issues as Lewis?


Charging the kerbs could snap the fuel pump driveshaft or damage the driveshaft bearing apparently, perhaps different driving styles contribute to car breaking :nod:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:24 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
viariani wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
viariani wrote:
Fuel pump failure I believe, mechanical not electrical. Gary Anderson said the fuel pump drive shaft is vulnerable if the engine moves too much in relation to the fuel tank, this occurs most often when being too aggressive over the kerbs.


Then they must adapt their car to not be so ridiculously stiff as Button suffered the same issue in Monza


MW was asked on the BBC F1 Forum if it was the same problem that Button had suffered and he said it wasn't, it was a different issue.


I think if McLaren have suffered 2 separate fuel pump issues that's an even bigger worry


I don't think anything mechanical is indestructable.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:27 pm 
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viariani wrote:
minchy wrote:
Miffy wrote:
Emerson.F wrote:
8romeo wrote:

*somehow Button's engine and car seems to work very well*, I quess he will finish this championship ahead o Hamilton, That seems to be Mclaren's objective for the rest of the season.


this


Maybe Button is too slow to wear his engines out as fast lol.

*Errm, this is only Lewis' 2nd mechanical DNF and Jenson has also had 1 in Italy.

*I'm guessing that was written as a dig at Button, but perhaps it's the way Jenson drives that is the reason he hasn't had the same issues as Lewis?


Charging the kerbs could snap the fuel pump driveshaft or damage the driveshaft bearing apparently, perhaps different driving styles contribute to car breaking :nod:



just as it was his fault his gearbox broke in Singapore and then Button suffered the same issue.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:39 pm 
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No Button's was simply a mechanical failure whereas Lewis's was down the MW putting sand in the 'box :)

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 6:40 pm 
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your words, not mine


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 7:39 pm 
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viariani wrote:
No Button's was simply a mechanical failure whereas Lewis's was down the MW putting sand in the 'box :)


You guys are really interesting it isn't enough for you that Lewis DNF your not fully happy unless you can find some way to make it his fault .

It's not that you don't think he's good it's that he's too good for your liking and you wish to discredit him . I do not believe some of the posters on this forum are F1 fans your agenda is obvious .

I support Lewis but I have no problem acknowledging the skill and merits of other drivers
But the posts on this forum leave me cold in 2012 to know that people still have this level of shallow thinking .
What is interesting to me is to see how you can concoct something in your mind to justify your agenda and really believe it and a few posts down the line it will be repeated until no one can be bothered to refute it with the truth, and then you can add it to your phantom list of things that you wish Lewis had done wrong this year .
Well let me put it straight one last time Lewis Hamilton has made no errors this year he has been the best on the grid and luck had nothing to do with anything he has achieved , he's done it through pure driving skill a man at the top of his game
With no help from Mclaren other than to give him a seemingly good car but no proper technical mechanical feedback or adequate supervision whether deliberate or not and this started from messing with his clutch settings in Australia( notice no problem with his start today ) because Lewis challenged them publicly and asked what is happening with my start and diplomatically added tell me what I'm doing wrong and I will correct it .
He knows he's doing nothing wrong Lewis knows how to start. It's never been a problem for him before this year.
Then the commentators put them on the spot in India and asked them what's happening with Lewis's starts .
The team are making themselves look amateur and if I had any doubt in my mind that Lewis is doing the right thing in leaving , it was dispelled today .
Mercedes can do no worse.
All the drivers drive over kerbs some even had major collisions and their cars did not just switch off with no prior warning


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:08 pm 
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they just have bad reliability this year, but do have the foundation of a very fast car.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:11 pm 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
they just have bad reliability this year, but do have the foundation of a very fast car.


It's also got a tiny performance window compared to the Bulls and Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:12 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Well from Hamilton's perspective, his decision to go elsewhere has been reinforced by what has happened this year. Hamilton has driven brilliantly and the car has had great pace most of the time. The team has just been a mess. From losing huge chunks of time in the pits in the first half of the season (including losing the lead in Malaysia), to failing to put the correct amount of fuel in the car during a qualifying session in Barcelona where Hamilton was by far the fastest, to having two mechanical failures from first place, the list goes on and on.

There are at least 10 races this season where Hamilton has been hurt by team errors and/or reliability problems. That's just insane! There are a minimum of 3 races where team errors and/or unreliability have cost him a win and about 3 other races where the win would have been possible without these issues.

He had to get out of there. I don't know if Merc is the answer but he's wasting his time with this team.


On a side note: Vettel would be stupid to leave Red Bull. They are clearly the class of the field and have been for 3+ years now.


This
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Qiwater wrote:
viariani wrote:
No Button's was simply a mechanical failure whereas Lewis's was down the MW putting sand in the 'box :)


You guys are really interesting it isn't enough for you that Lewis DNF your not fully happy unless you can find some way to make it his fault .

It's not that you don't think he's good it's that he's too good for your liking and you wish to discredit him . I do not believe some of the posters on this forum are F1 fans your agenda is obvious .

I support Lewis but I have no problem acknowledging the skill and merits of other drivers
But the posts on this forum leave me cold in 2012 to know that people still have this level of shallow thinking .
What is interesting to me is to see how you can concoct something in your mind to justify your agenda and really believe it and a few posts down the line it will be repeated until no one can be bothered to refute it with the truth, and then you can add it to your phantom list of things that you wish Lewis had done wrong this year .
Well let me put it straight one last time Lewis Hamilton has made no errors this year he has been the best on the grid and luck had nothing to do with anything he has achieved , he's done it through pure driving skill a man at the top of his game
With no help from Mclaren other than to give him a seemingly good car but no proper technical mechanical feedback or adequate supervision whether deliberate or not and this started from messing with his clutch settings in Australia( notice no problem with his start today ) because Lewis challenged them publicly and asked what is happening with my start and diplomatically added tell me what I'm doing wrong and I will correct it .
He knows he's doing nothing wrong Lewis knows how to start. It's never been a problem for him before this year.
Then the commentators put them on the spot in India and asked them what's happening with Lewis's starts .
The team are making themselves look amateur and if I had any doubt in my mind that Lewis is doing the right thing in leaving , it was dispelled today .
Mercedes can do no worse.
All the drivers drive over kerbs some even had major collisions and their cars did not just switch off with no prior warning


This.

M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
they just have bad reliability this year, but do have the foundation of a very fast car.


Just bad reliability? have you really watched all races? Remember the 14 seconds pitstops? wheelnut failures? Front and rearjack failures? underfueling? Failed strategies couple that with a few maldo en rogro crashes.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:30 pm 
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Emerson.F wrote:
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
they just have bad reliability this year, but do have the foundation of a very fast car.


Just bad reliability? have you really watched all races? Remember the 14 seconds pitstops? wheelnut failures? Front and rearjack failures? underfueling? Failed strategies couple that with a few maldo en rogro crashes.


I was talking about today.

overall yes, they started the year with bad pitstops but that is fixed now, Wheelnut failures included.

Underfueling is just an error and as we saw yesterday can happen to anyone, It just happened to Lewis.

Strategies to cope with drivers? i don't think so. Lewis was well after his pitstop when Maldonado the crash with Maldonado occurred and Grosjean's one was at the start. In fact the only strategy decision i think Mclaren got wrong this year was with Button in Hungry.

another overall negative for them is that the car has a very small operating window and that is something they are yet to fix, but could be a side effect of having a fast car or could be just Button's engineers doing a bad job.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:40 pm 
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Spot on Qiwater, just spot on

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:40 pm 
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With the break downs and what not, its strikes me that the car is simply extremely fragile when compared to the other top teams, and yes Macca are still one of the top teams. I suspect it does have something to do with driving style, Button drives in a very smooth way where as Hammy tries to get everything out of the car which includes throwing it around the corners more then Button does.

That is where I suspect the problems are, a fragile car and a driving style that is simply too rough for the car's parts to handle.... so Hammy would be more suited to the team he is joining.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 8:48 pm 
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sparky wrote:
With the break downs and what not, its strikes me that the car is simply extremely fragile when compared to the other top teams, and yes Macca are still one of the top teams. I suspect it does have something to do with driving style, Button drives in a very smooth way where as Hammy tries to get everything out of the car which includes throwing it around the corners more then Button does.

That is where I suspect the problems are, a fragile car and a driving style that is simply too rough for the car's parts to handle.... so Hammy would be more suited to the team he is joining.


So you're saying you ahve all the technical knowledge too make such an observation based on what? Go watch that pole lap again.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:11 pm 
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Emerson.F wrote:
sparky wrote:
With the break downs and what not, its strikes me that the car is simply extremely fragile when compared to the other top teams, and yes Macca are still one of the top teams. I suspect it does have something to do with driving style, Button drives in a very smooth way where as Hammy tries to get everything out of the car which includes throwing it around the corners more then Button does.

That is where I suspect the problems are, a fragile car and a driving style that is simply too rough for the car's parts to handle.... so Hammy would be more suited to the team he is joining.


So you're saying you have all the technical knowledge too make such an observation based on what? Go watch that pole lap again.


Or maybe he doesn't know, and neither do you!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:16 pm 
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It was confirmed by Martin Whitmarsh that the failure was caused by a faulty fuel pump manufactured by Mercedes Benz, so whether or not Mclaren are a joke does not relate to today's failure I'm afraid.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:18 pm 
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froze wrote:
It was confirmed by Martin Whitmarsh that the failure was caused by a faulty fuel pump manufactured by Mercedes Benz, so whether or not Mclaren are a joke does not relate to today's failure I'm afraid.


Thats kinda ironic.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:21 pm 
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froze wrote:
It was confirmed by Martin Whitmarsh that the failure was caused by a faulty fuel pump manufactured by Mercedes Benz, so whether or not Mclaren are a joke does not relate to today's failure I'm afraid.


:lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:22 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
froze wrote:
It was confirmed by Martin Whitmarsh that the failure was caused by a faulty fuel pump manufactured by Mercedes Benz, so whether or not Mclaren are a joke does not relate to today's failure I'm afraid.


Thats kinda ironic.

It is because I bet in the end most of the people don't probably know that detail and even if they do, this race's outcome will probably be remembered as how Mclaren let Lewis down again and how it's going to be so much better when he finally gets to Merc, when the failed part was in fact a Merc part. To put it simple, more of an image loss to Mclaren, Merc not so much.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 9:22 pm 
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sparky wrote:
With the break downs and what not, its strikes me that the car is simply extremely fragile when compared to the other top teams, and yes Macca are still one of the top teams. I suspect it does have something to do with driving style, Button drives in a very smooth way where as Hammy tries to get everything out of the car which includes throwing it around the corners more then Button does.

That is where I suspect the problems are, a fragile car and a driving style that is simply too rough for the car's parts to handle.... so Hammy would be more suited to the team he is joining.

I don't think AbuDhabi has high curbs, and Hamilton drove there very well. he did not hit anything, he was cruising with a comfortable lead as the car failed

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