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 Post subject: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:20 pm 
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Meanwhile in Sao Paulo drug dealers fighting military police.

http://en.mercopress.com/2012/11/05/law ... e-90th-cop

Quote:
Overnight from Thursday to Friday, eleven other people also died in São Paulo's metropolitan area, including a policeman shot by assailants attempting to steal his motorcycle. And since Thursday to Sunday the death toll reached 22 with another eight injured.

The violence has been linked to an alleged undeclared war between the military police and the prison drug-trafficking gang known as PCC (First Command of the Capital), which is considered the strongest and richest in the country.


luckily it is not as bad as it was in 2006

Quote:
Back in 2006 the hub of Brazil’s finance and industry was paralyzed for a week when drug lords from PCC sent their hit-men to the streets killing police officers, civilians and burning buses, vehicles and businesses.

The rampage of police officers killings was followed by an immediate revenge from security forces that also went on a killing vendetta of drug pushers, suspects and their families. Over 500 civilians were killed and 60 members of the security forces died in the week-long battle.


Are you ready? F1 coming to your home :)

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:27 am 
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-20230275


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:50 am 
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Sao Paulo is a big city. I don't think it will affect the race


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:45 am 
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I think quantity of responses here reflects the way it presented in media sources: I mean, majority of news agencies don't really report on this and as the result people are not bothered with numerous murders in the streets of the big city.
I feel worried for ordinary team members and tourists that go to track with little/no security and anything can happen on the way there.

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:29 am 
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That kind of war has always gone on, nothing new, wont effect F1. Though of course kidnapping has always been a possibility.

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:32 am 
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It's only making the news because the race is getting closer, more trouble in Bahrain lately and nothing gets reported because there's no F1 to link it with and drag it through the mud!

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:32 am 
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F1Thomas wrote:
That kind of war has always gone on, nothing new, wont effect F1. Though of course kidnapping has always been a possibility.


exactly


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:34 am 
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F1Thomas wrote:
That kind of war has always gone on, nothing new, wont effect F1. Though of course kidnapping has always been a possibility.

Yes. All F1 staff have their own security in Brazil.

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:37 am 
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dizlexik wrote:
F1Thomas wrote:
That kind of war has always gone on, nothing new, wont effect F1. Though of course kidnapping has always been a possibility.

Yes. All F1 staff have their own security in Brazil.



not really.

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:10 pm 
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Should just move the army in and declare martial law, work your way through every house and slum as if it was Iraq and do a wholesale clearance of the drug scum


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:52 pm 
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They could just stay here in Austin and have another race weekend. We'd all enjoy that and think of the money saved not having to move.

I'm for another race here... :D


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:28 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
F1Thomas wrote:
That kind of war has always gone on, nothing new, wont effect F1. Though of course kidnapping has always been a possibility.


exactly


Let's give them DiResta so they're satisfied.


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 3:39 pm 
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flavio81 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
F1Thomas wrote:
That kind of war has always gone on, nothing new, wont effect F1. Though of course kidnapping has always been a possibility.


exactly


Let's give them DiResta so they're satisfied.

:thumbup:

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Why no reaction like there was for Bahrain?

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:16 pm 
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Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Why no reaction like there was for Bahrain?


Probably because it's easier to moralize than Bahrain for most people. Drug gangs = Bad guys.
Brazilian Police don't exactly have a great reputation either.


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:21 pm 
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flavio81 wrote:
FormulaFun wrote:
F1Thomas wrote:
That kind of war has always gone on, nothing new, wont effect F1. Though of course kidnapping has always been a possibility.


exactly


Let's give them DiResta so they're satisfied.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:06 pm 
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Megamoss wrote:
Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Why no reaction like there was for Bahrain?


Probably because it's easier to moralize than Bahrain for most people. Drug gangs = Bad guys.
Brazilian Police don't exactly have a great reputation either.

Exactly my point, the Brazilian Police are no better than the Bahraini government, I'm no expert but I know about stuff like the death squads which are still out there murdering "undesirables" (mainly street kids) in cities. It has the same effect on the F1 as the Bahrain protests did, nothing, yet we are still happy to let the race take place. Why the distinction? It's still the authorities killing people.

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:26 pm 
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More today...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-20271932


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:27 pm 
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Only reported by us westerners as it's close to F1, happens all the time, that's life.

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:29 pm 
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Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Megamoss wrote:
Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Why no reaction like there was for Bahrain?


Probably because it's easier to moralize than Bahrain for most people. Drug gangs = Bad guys.
Brazilian Police don't exactly have a great reputation either.

Exactly my point, the Brazilian Police are no better than the Bahraini government, I'm no expert but I know about stuff like the death squads which are still out there murdering "undesirables" (mainly street kids) in cities. It has the same effect on the F1 as the Bahrain protests did, nothing, yet we are still happy to let the race take place. Why the distinction? It's still the authorities killing people.


I went through this time and again in the weeks leading up to the Bahrain GP with those advocating the boycott and to a man and woman they could not see the link between Bahrain, Brazil and other countries with less than wonderful governments. It was like they all had wooly coats and said "BAAA." They saw the pictures in the media and only then decided to do something about a government that had been there long before, and had been oppressing long before. Sheep. After the race, all was silent. It was the rent-a-mob mentality. "We're bored, let's raise a ruckus here. We'll never give in! (A short time later) We've had enough now, let's go home and wait for something else."

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:09 pm 
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it is not getting any better :(

http://en.mercopress.com/2012/11/12/dru ... he-weekend

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We put our faith in maniacs the triumph of the will
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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:46 pm 
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Worse than Bahrain? I don't see these news stories on the BBC!


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:24 pm 
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AtrumVesica wrote:
Should just move the army in and declare martial law, work your way through every house and slum as if it was Iraq and do a wholesale clearance of the drug scum

Because that has worked so well in Iraq. :(


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:35 pm 
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Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Why no reaction like there was for Bahrain?

Because citizens of Brazil are legally allowed to vote, join the political party of their choice, publicly criticize the government, hold marches and rallies, and provide medical care to those injured in demonstrations. In Bahrain, such activities (or demanding the right to vote) will get you jailed, tortured, beaten, gassed and/or shot.

Furthermore, AFAIK no member of the Brazilian GP/track staff has been arrested, tortured and subsequently fired because of their ethnicity or religion.

Let me know if you need any more information ...


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:48 pm 
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hittheapex wrote:
Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Megamoss wrote:
Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Why no reaction like there was for Bahrain?


Probably because it's easier to moralize than Bahrain for most people. Drug gangs = Bad guys.
Brazilian Police don't exactly have a great reputation either.

Exactly my point, the Brazilian Police are no better than the Bahraini government, I'm no expert but I know about stuff like the death squads which are still out there murdering "undesirables" (mainly street kids) in cities. It has the same effect on the F1 as the Bahrain protests did, nothing, yet we are still happy to let the race take place. Why the distinction? It's still the authorities killing people.


I went through this time and again in the weeks leading up to the Bahrain GP with those advocating the boycott and to a man and woman they could not see the link between Bahrain, Brazil and other countries with less than wonderful governments. It was like they all had wooly coats and said "BAAA." They saw the pictures in the media and only then decided to do something about a government that had been there long before, and had been oppressing long before. Sheep. After the race, all was silent. It was the rent-a-mob mentality. "We're bored, let's raise a ruckus here. We'll never give in! (A short time later) We've had enough now, let's go home and wait for something else."

I guess logic is not your strong point - since you seem unable to appreciate the difference between a country whose population has the right to elect their government and another in which people are brutally punished for demanding that same right; or between a government-owned race which is used explicitly for propaganda purposes, and a privately promoted race with no connection to the national government. Or more likely, since this precise issue was explained repeatedly 6 months ago, you are simply ignoring any facts or arguments which contradict your opinion.

As to your second point, people raised a "ruckus" online to try to stop the GP. Once the GP was over, there was no purpose to continuing the agitation. So most of them are now waiting to try again next year. Your comment is tantamount to criticizing a political party for not continuing to campaign after the election is over.

I've noticed a trend among apologists for unethical organizations or governments to impugn the motives of those criticizing the regime, rather than debating the actual issues. It's generally the sign of those who realize either that they have no case, or simply lack the skill to make a case.


Last edited by neti1 on Mon Nov 12, 2012 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:56 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
AtrumVesica wrote:
Should just move the army in and declare martial law, work your way through every house and slum as if it was Iraq and do a wholesale clearance of the drug scum

Because that has worked so well in Iraq. :(

Psst, some may work for the military industrial complex :P

on the other hand, i met one Vietnam Vet... he certainly didn't think much of the war then, or any of them now...


on topic... Someone previously mentioned about rent a mob mentality, and i think that is the issue. What is another issue is some of us think we're better than others... a clever and obvious way of dehumanising others, but it simply works.

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:58 pm 
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With all due respect this is not new, the F1 community always know that Brazil is one of the less safe GPs, the attack on Button and his team in 2010 proved that, cannot begin to think how traumatic that must have been

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:57 pm 
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neti1 wrote:
Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Why no reaction like there was for Bahrain?

Because citizens of Brazil are legally allowed to vote, join the political party of their choice, publicly criticize the government, hold marches and rallies, and provide medical care to those injured in demonstrations. In Bahrain, such activities (or demanding the right to vote) will get you jailed, tortured, beaten, gassed and/or shot.

Furthermore, AFAIK no member of the Brazilian GP/track staff has been arrested, tortured and subsequently fired because of their ethnicity or religion.

Let me know if you need any more information ...

Doesn't sound that much worse than what the Brazilian police do to you if you're a poor street kid:

"According to Mr Demetrio, the biggest threat to these kids is from death squads, made up of local police officers, both former and serving. 'They believe they've got to clean up what they see as a social problem by killing these street kids,' he said. 'Over the years I have personally known 600 street kids killed on the streets – 60 per cent of them have been killed by these organised death squads.'"

"I call it social cleansing because the people being killed are normally black, they're poor and they're from the slums that surround the city. They have become what I call 'the killables'."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 85214.html (from 2009 but still relevant, not a lot's changed)

How is there not a moral equivalency between these situations? Both are horrible but neither directly affect the F1.

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:16 pm 
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Being OP I would like to stress - this thread intention was not to compare situation between Bahrain, Brazil, China, Russia etc. The reasons are different and the whole media coverage is different.
The point was to talk about basic safety of F1 teams and F1 visitors.
I know that this kind of news is usually not widely covered, since it is not something local government wants to have drawn attention to. I know that some forum members go to different GPs and it is usuful if they have some info and can be more aware about their own security.

all talks about what is worse Brazil and Bahrain are plain idiotic and supid. Whne bullet killes a person the person doesn't really care whether it was criminal, police, government or other idiots who fired the gun.

It is, no it was about the situation and people neede to be more careful. That was it.

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:48 am 
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neti1 wrote:
hittheapex wrote:
Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Megamoss wrote:
Pedrosa_4_Ever wrote:
Why no reaction like there was for Bahrain?


Probably because it's easier to moralize than Bahrain for most people. Drug gangs = Bad guys.
Brazilian Police don't exactly have a great reputation either.

Exactly my point, the Brazilian Police are no better than the Bahraini government, I'm no expert but I know about stuff like the death squads which are still out there murdering "undesirables" (mainly street kids) in cities. It has the same effect on the F1 as the Bahrain protests did, nothing, yet we are still happy to let the race take place. Why the distinction? It's still the authorities killing people.


I went through this time and again in the weeks leading up to the Bahrain GP with those advocating the boycott and to a man and woman they could not see the link between Bahrain, Brazil and other countries with less than wonderful governments. It was like they all had wooly coats and said "BAAA." They saw the pictures in the media and only then decided to do something about a government that had been there long before, and had been oppressing long before. Sheep. After the race, all was silent. It was the rent-a-mob mentality. "We're bored, let's raise a ruckus here. We'll never give in! (A short time later) We've had enough now, let's go home and wait for something else."

I guess logic is not your strong point - since you seem unable to appreciate the difference between a country whose population has the right to elect their government and another in which people are brutally punished for demanding that same right; or between a government-owned race which is used explicitly for propaganda purposes, and a privately promoted race with no connection to the national government. Or more likely, since this precise issue was explained repeatedly 6 months ago, you are simply ignoring any facts or arguments which contradict your opinion.

As to your second point, people raised a "ruckus" online to try to stop the GP. Once the GP was over, there was no purpose to continuing the agitation. So most of them are now waiting to try again next year. Your comment is tantamount to criticizing a political party for not continuing to campaign after the election is over.

I've noticed a trend among apologists for unethical organizations or governments to impugn the motives of those criticizing the regime, rather than debating the actual issues. It's generally the sign of those who realize either that they have no case, or simply lack the skill to make a case.


"I guess logic is not your strong point" I can distinguish the difference between liberal democracies that function for the people *after* the votes have been counted and those that do not. So people can vote in Brazil, great. So can North Koreans, how do you rate their human rights? It’s an extreme example, but the point is that comparing Brazil to Bahrain is to compare an apple to an orange. I'm sure the homeless kids getting shot by policeman for no other reason than that they had the misfortune to be born into poverty might feel less positive than you about their democracy. You can’t pick which human rights for F1 to advocate and skip others because they aren’t involved with fighting for the right to put a pen to paper at the ballot box. Human rights are far more complicated than that.

I agree that there should not have been a campaign within F1 circles against the Bahrain GP as such after it was over. My point, rather, was that F1 went to other countries after that and there was silence. OK, let's not use Brazil as an example, you disagree with that one. Is China good enough? That was government funded, albeit through one of the popular government supported market enterprises. I may have had some sympathy with your view about making a distinction between government and private funded events if you had been written even a thread opposing the Chinese Grand Prix, but this one seemed to have passed you by. I’m not accusing you of willfully ignoring the facts, but perhaps you weren’t aware of them. In future perhaps you’ll be slower to accuse me of not having the skill to debate the issues if you want to continue to mix politics and sport.

“Apologist,” is a common smear for those who don’t agree with a different opinion, so I’ll take it as a compliment in that context. Don’t however, mistake my disagreement with your opinion on Bahrain as support for the Bahraini government. If you can’t see the difference already, I don’t think I will be able to convince you.

I don’t think that sporting boycotts have the impetus for political change and that to believe they do prolongs suffering by propogating false hope in something that does not work. The notion that the cancellation of the event would have an impact is fanciful to say the least. I ask you to provide an example of a sporting boycott that has brought about political change by itself. You did not give one 6 months ago, so I ask again now. Sustained economic, political and on occasion, military pressure are the only means that have the impetus for change, that is what I believe.

Sports going to controversial countries stimulates more attention on these issues than would otherwise have been the case. The popularity of the Tibetan cause, for example was helped enormously by the Beijing Olympics. I put it to you that if not for the Bahrain GP, those people would have been forgotten, because to be frank, more people were dying in Syria and that was more worthy of the media’s attention. Instead, the sheer numbers of media that are there to cover the sporting event makes coverage of the political strife inevitable to an extent that would otherwise not have happened. Not convinced? How many news reports were there on Sri Lankan conflict with the Tamils until cricket became involved or hundreds of people were dying?

Unfortunately, I can’t prove my innocence to your lie that I ignored any facts that contradict my opinion. The threads from 6 months ago on Bahrain have disappeared, I can’t access them. Do let me know if you can find them please. As for ignoring arguments that contradict my opinion, well, I will let others decide on whether disagreeing with an argument is the same as ignoring it, I'm not writing column inches about that.

I hope that was enough for you in debating the “actual issues,” though you didn’t define what those were. You may still think I have no case in your eyes, that’s fine, we probably won’t ever agree on this issue.

Finally, it seems you were so disgusted with F1 ignoring the campaign to cancel the Bahrain GP that you continue to watch anyway. What message does that send out for next year’s race and next year’s boycott campaign? I won’t take any moralizing from someone with that weakness of resolve. Sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:35 am 
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isn't there always war in Sao Paulo?
I know that every time team's visit, something gets stolen, people get robbed and someone gets threatened.


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:45 am 
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G1n wrote:
isn't there always war in Sao Paulo?
I know that every time team's visit, something gets stolen, people get robbed and someone gets threatened.

JB got mugged there right ? Or I'm thinking of someone else...


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:01 pm 
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Maky wrote:
G1n wrote:
isn't there always war in Sao Paulo?
I know that every time team's visit, something gets stolen, people get robbed and someone gets threatened.

JB got mugged there right ? Or I'm thinking of someone else...


Massa got mugged there in 2008...


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:06 pm 
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war in Sao Paulo....really? war? geez,this is why i say alot of forumers would be the perfect fit for the tabloids.
i was expecting to read something about Brazil being put in a state of emergency and seeing pics of foreign military helicopters and fighter jets hovering everywhere with Hum V trucks patrolling the streets with fully armed military men. :-P


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:08 pm 
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G1n wrote:
isn't there always war in Sao Paulo?
I know that every time team's visit, something gets stolen, people get robbed and someone gets threatened.

that doesn't make it a war...same happens everywhere in the world,guess we can say we are in WW3 then?


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:02 pm 
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War never stops, a world war is different.

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:53 pm 
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and it is getting even more serious there -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-20441716

armored cars for F1 star (not sure about the rest of the team member and of course most of the visitors will not enjoy such security)
http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/formula-1 ... hs-1449602

it might not be chaos there, but close enough after chief security chef resigned

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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Shame there will be no mention of this at the Grand Prix.


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:10 pm 
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This has been going on for sooooooooo many years, why do you people care now? Its like the Bahrain thing all over again, havent seen anymore of those threads... maybe the people that were so passionate about it went over there to help with the protests or went into politics


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 Post subject: Re: War in Sao Paulo
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 2:37 pm 
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FormulaFun wrote:
This has been going on for sooooooooo many years, why do you people care now? Its like the Bahrain thing all over again, havent seen anymore of those threads... maybe the people that were so passionate about it went over there to help with the protests or went into politics



First - because it was relatively calm (by Sao Paulo standards) from 2006 when the truce was agreed. not any more

Second - contrary to Bahrain (Libya, Syria...) situation no other big country trying to make an impact and change the ruler of the country. As the result - little coverage on main news channels and newspapers.

Third - apple and oranges here. it is not politics. just criminal war in the city. Again, I am posting this since it is a threat to health and lifes of F1 goers and F1 team members. nothing else. no political or any other agenda. just direct relation to F1 people.

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We are worse than animals, we hunger for the kill
We put our faith in maniacs the triumph of the will
We kill for money, wealth and lust, for this we should be damned
We are disease upon the world, brotherhood of man


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