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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:23 pm 
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Webber's perfect for Red Bull. He's good enough to get the points for the WCC without being strong enough to consistently challenge Vettel for the WDC. Why on earth would they replace him?

McLaren's just lost Lewis - they would be highly negligent if they lost their other driver too. Say what you will about Jenson but he has won races and the middle of this year aside has not done too bad for them. With Perez being an unknown at least they have one driver who they know can produce the goods if they give him a car that suits him.

Massa? Honestly don't know. He's a likeable guy and he does show some decent speed occasionally, but certainly this year his racecraft has been generally not much to write home about. Maybe it's a confidence thing but I don't see him lasting beyond next year if he has another season like this one. TBH though he is a proven race winner and I don't see anybody on the grid who would be an obvious choice to replace him either


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 5:34 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Dam_Noir wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Dam_Noir wrote:
Considering he had Vettel behind him with a car geared up for overtaking, the double DRS system, on fresher and faster tyres I was actually surprised he managed to hold him back for as long as he did.


Yeah, bloody Jenson Button he's bloody useless!


Tell me about it, my nan could beat him and she never even learned to drive!


Well if she could reach the peddles she'll have him beaten!



This is going WAAAY OT but you just reminded me of a day at the rally school I worked at. one of the instructors booked a day for his Gran for her Birthday. We had to find a cushion to put behind her so she could reach the pedals. :lol:

some of the other punters were giving the old roll the eyes look when she stalled on the first run. weren't laughing so much when she set the fastest time on the timed runs :lol: :lol: :lol:


Just a bit of tongue in cheek there pal, however I would of tiddled myself if I saw a granny set the timing screens alight! :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:02 pm 
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Dam_Noir wrote:
Just a bit of tongue in cheek there pal, however I would of tiddled myself if I saw a granny set the timing screens alight! :lol:



Unfortunately no timing screens just stop watches. How ever always good fun to watch the testosterone slowly drain from peoples faces as the times are read out :nod: :lol: As the guy in the "Service area" you get a good chuckle at the macho BS that gets spouted at the beginning that turns into heads hanging in shame at the end. :lol: .

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:07 pm 
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I would not pay any money to see either of them race, or watch F1

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:07 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
I would not pay any money to see either of them race, or watch F1


What?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:10 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Haribo wrote:
I would not pay any money to see either of them race, or watch F1


What?

I would not go to any F1 GP because of them, neither would I turn up my TV to see Webber , Button or Massa

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:11 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Haribo wrote:
I would not pay any money to see either of them race, or watch F1


What?

I would not go to any F1 GP because of them, neither would I turn up my TV to see Webber , Button or Massa


You choose not to attend GP's because these three race in F1?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:13 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Haribo wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Haribo wrote:
I would not pay any money to see either of them race, or watch F1


What?

I would not go to any F1 GP because of them, neither would I turn up my TV to see Webber , Button or Massa


You choose not to attend GP's because these three race in F1?


The point made seems very clear to me - the poster simply says they wouldn't pay to watch a F1 race just to follow Webber, Button or Massa. Nowhere did it seem to be implied that those three were somehow hindering the viewing pleasure. There's a point there - to me, Webber and Massa aren't the most exciting drivers, even though I see MW deserving his frontline seat having clearly shown his speed even at his moderate age. He does appear to lack that certain something to make him champion, but he's definitely solid.
Massa? He's clearly improved, but I can't help feeling there are better options currently. Before his accident, he belonged to the list of top drivers on the grid.
Button is definitely deserving of a frontline seat and I could think of turning up my TV to watch Button, even though he's not my first pick.


Last edited by Water on Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:16 pm 
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SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Haribo wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Haribo wrote:
I would not pay any money to see either of them race, or watch F1


What?

I would not go to any F1 GP because of them, neither would I turn up my TV to see Webber , Button or Massa


You choose not to attend GP's because these three race in F1?

No, I go to see , Alonso, Hamilton, Schumacher & Raikkönen .

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:17 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Haribo wrote:
I would not pay any money to see either of them race, or watch F1


What?

I would not go to any F1 GP because of them, neither would I turn up my TV to see Webber , Button or Massa


Shame, Canada last year was epic!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:19 pm 
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Dam_Noir wrote:
Haribo wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Haribo wrote:
I would not pay any money to see either of them race, or watch F1


What?

I would not go to any F1 GP because of them, neither would I turn up my TV to see Webber , Button or Massa


Shame, Canada last year was epic!


:thumbup:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:25 pm 
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Dam_Noir wrote:
Haribo wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Haribo wrote:
I would not pay any money to see either of them race, or watch F1


What?

I would not go to any F1 GP because of them, neither would I turn up my TV to see Webber , Button or Massa


Shame, Canada last year was epic!

I think 6 saftey cars, did make it too distorted.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:26 pm 
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Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

That was brilliant

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:29 pm 
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Haribo wrote:
Dam_Noir wrote:
Haribo wrote:
SilverstoneRegular wrote:
Haribo wrote:
I would not pay any money to see either of them race, or watch F1


What?

I would not go to any F1 GP because of them, neither would I turn up my TV to see Webber , Button or Massa


Shame, Canada last year was epic!

I think 6 saftey cars, did make it too distorted.


What was I thinking, it was terrible. When the SC comes out it makes me switch off instantly.

Speaking of which was the last GP any good? I switched off after lap 8.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:34 pm 
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Here's from the official F1 site

Six pit stops, two accidents and a drive-through penalty. Despite all that - and a commanding performance from world champion Sebastian Vettel, who led all bar the final lap for Red Bull - McLaren’s Jenson Button won Sunday’s Formula 1 Grand Prix du Canada 2011. With rain suspending proceedings for over two hours, a total race time of more than four hours and an average winning speed of just 74.864 km/h, it was a somewhat surreal afternoon in Montreal. We take a team-by-team look at how the extraordinary 70 laps unfolded…

McLaren
Jenson Button, P1
Lewis Hamilton, retired lap 8, accident
By the eighth lap McLaren’s race had reached calamitous proportion, with Button inadvertently taking off Hamilton on the pit straight when he didn’t see him in the spray around his mirrors, and an investigation being held into the speed of both cars behind the initial safety car. Button lost ground serving a drive-through, then having to change back from intermediates to wets again, and was only 10th by the time the race was suspended on lap 24. Thereafter a brilliant drive, allied to some superb strategy by McLaren, helped him to recover, but then there was a front wing and left front tyre-damaging brush with Alonso on the 37th lap which dropped him to last place. After that a charging performance enabled him to make maximum advantage of slicks and DRS to pass Webber and Schumacher towards the end and set himself up for the pursuit of Vettel that prompted the German to make a mistake on the final lap. Truly it was a magnificent job by driver and team to pull the fat from the fire.


Safety cars distorted the result lol
So did the rain!
So did the break in racing!

Honestly don't know what to think anymore

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 10:01 pm 
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I have a feeling that Webber will vacate his Red Bull seat and retire after 2013. At the same time, Massa will finally move out of Ferrari to Red Bull on a 3-year contract, the last 2 years of which could see him as the No:1 driver after Vettel moves to Ferrari at the end of 2014.

Just guessing, of course...... ;) :]

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:21 pm 
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Button - no doubt. Proven champion, proven winner, can win just about any race, smartest of the bunch.

Massa - probably. But, he needs more consistency. It is safe to say that he is not on Alonso's level, but there are several reports that he does not get same equipment or same attention, so it's not so easy to compare more precisely. He got better lately, and so did the car, which means, in good car, he is a good driver.

Webber - He could have easily been a champ in 2010, without much effort. But he lost it big time. Next 2011 year he was in shadow of Vettel in the same car, and this year, apart from two exceptional races he was not up to the task. He is going downward. If he suddenly does not decides to retire, I think that next 2013 will be embarrassment for him. Vettel factor definitively puts a big pressure on him. We could only wish him he had a better car some years earlier to fight for WDC.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 12:31 am 
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Eva09 wrote:
Massa and Barrichello and Webber could all very easily be former WDCs. In terms of driver calibre, logical thought leads me to query how much they actually should be considered different from someone who won the WDC.

Barrichello had drove in 6 cars which won both World Championships and finished 4th, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 2nd, 3rd. On his day (AUT 2002, GB 2003, Europe 2009) he was unbeatable but he only had a couple of these races every season and he had shocking off races in all these seasons, still he had a good solid career and drove some awesome cars and had some great wins.

Massa had the best car in 2008, came close but had a couple errors that season. Had bad luck in Hungary thought but was fortunate with questionable penalties in Belgium and Japan.

Webber, probably had the strongest case but sadly Korea 2010 ended his hopes that year and he just has some bogey tracks (Abu Dhabi, Singapore) which balances itself out with tracks he hard to beat (Monaco, Nurburgring).

Eva09 wrote:
It's not magic. It's adding up points. Massa would even have been WDC in a different points system.

No, Massa threw that WDC away in Aus, Malaysia and Japan. Eddie Irvine would have won 1999 WDC under current system but doubt Mika cares.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 2:49 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
If he suddenly does not decides to retire, I think that next 2013 will be embarrassment for him.


This one has to be taken with a pinch of salt, as people have said this every year since the end of 2008 and every year (excluding 2011) he's been able to challenge his team-mate for at least part of the season.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:56 am 
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I you can't bother to spell the topic properly I won't bother answering the question.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:05 pm 
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JB imo has been at par with hami... both have been close over all.. But webber and massa seem to always be over shadowed by their team mates.... i guess they can show how good they are by going in a different team... if they are any good that is....

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 3:08 pm 
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Toby. wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
If he suddenly does not decides to retire, I think that next 2013 will be embarrassment for him.


This one has to be taken with a pinch of salt, as people have said this every year since the end of 2008 and every year (excluding 2011) he's been able to challenge his team-mate for at least part of the season.


Yes, but that's because Webber is a very good driver as such and when fired-up, can deliver exceptional performances. His problem though is that he is slowly losing motivation and at times seems to lose concentration. Poor starts, being caught by cars behing when he should not have and so on. If it had not been for the fact that he was being beaten by a younger and less-experienced teammate, my guess is that Webber would have retired a couple of years ago.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:06 pm 
First off, every Formula One driver is exceptionally good at his craft. But recently we have seen three phenom, in the form of Vettel, Alonso, and Hamilton. Each carries their own strengths and weaknesses, only do I believe that Alonso is the "complete package". He's quick, his racecraft is absolutely superb, and he controls his emotions and aggression. And please, I'm talking about today and not three, four, or five years ago. Vettel is disciplined, darn quick, and delivers what the team asks of him. Hamilton is one of the very quickest sprinters I have ever seen.

Then we come to their team mates, each also superb drivers with wonderful qualities. Massa is darn good in a car that suits him, horrible if it isn't. Those who watched him when he was winning, he was like Vettel, sat on pole, and disappeared. He's still darn good, once he had a car he felt comfortable with, he regained his form, witness how he took it to Alonso at Monza. Webber is a top tier driver, we're talking about a driver who won Monaco. The problem is that once Vettel finds a car to his liking, he leaves anyone in his dust, including his team mate. At one point of the season Webber was leading in the WDC. Button is amazing, just a shade behind Alonso in being the "complete driver". Sometimes he struggles with setup, but his racecraft is second to none, he's darn quick in any circumstance, and if he's in a car to his liking late in the race, the class of the field.

Yes, they each deserve to be where they are.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:12 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
First off, every Formula One driver is exceptionally good at his craft. But recently we have seen three phenom, in the form of Vettel, Alonso, and Hamilton. Each carries their own strengths and weaknesses, only do I believe that Alonso is the "complete package". He's quick, his racecraft is absolutely superb, and he controls his emotions and aggression. And please, I'm talking about today and not three, four, or five years ago. Vettel is disciplined, darn quick, and delivers what the team asks of him. Hamilton is one of the very quickest sprinters I have ever seen.

Then we come to their team mates, each also superb drivers with wonderful qualities. Massa is darn good in a car that suits him, horrible if it isn't. Those who watched him when he was winning, he was like Vettel, sat on pole, and disappeared. He's still darn good, once he had a car he felt comfortable with, he regained his form, witness how he took it to Alonso at Monza. Webber is a top tier driver, we're talking about a driver who won Monaco. The problem is that once Vettel finds a car to his liking, he leaves anyone in his dust, including his team mate. At one point of the season Webber was leading in the WDC. Button is amazing, just a shade behind Alonso in being the "complete driver". Sometimes he struggles with setup, but his racecraft is second to none, he's darn quick in any circumstance, and if he's in a car to his liking late in the race, the class of the field.

Yes, they each deserve to be where they are.


I agree, Webber gave Vettel some very hard time untill the last race of 2010 when he was ahead! 2011 was a troubling year with Webber and an unreliable car, this year up to the halfway point he was leading him and has been matching him in quali so far and we know Vettel is fast in that area. he definitely deserves his seat, in fact for me the question is do RBR deserve him or not. Had he won in 2010 the last 3 years would have panned out very different now!

Massa, pre 2009 he was good (just as good as Kimi and Lewis!). after that troubles started to happen but he was not that far off Alonso in pure pace but Alonso did put his stamp on early and from there on he has been destroying him in the races more often than not. I would like someone else to take his seat as i don't see him challenging Alonso, but if he keeps his current form at the start of next year i think he can challenge him but i won't bet on it.

Button, i rank him at the very top. top 5 are the current WDCs Alonso, Lewis, Vettel, Button and Kimi in no specific order. I don't really buy into the top 3 hype. when given the chance (car) he has been at the high end of the grid, and over 3 years he managed to be equal to Hamilton in terms of points (which is what wins championships), he is slower than Lewis in qualifications but makes up for that during the races. so if Hamilton is a top racer then so is he. He deserves to be in a top team.

from your description Blinky i see that you do rank Button very high, and saying he is the second most complete driver next to Alonso by a small margin, but why is he not one of the phenomenons you mentioned?

I think the fight between Lewis and Jenson shows it is just as good as the fight between Lewis and Alonso, in fact the fight between the latter 2 was neutralized by the fact that Lewis was a rookie and Alonso was at his start with Mclaren so both were new to the car while Button faced a more experienced Lewis and one who was very familiar with Mclaren (the team and car) and over the course of 3 years was just as good. I agree that Jenson is very similar to Alonso and i would love for them to be teammates with equal status and see who has the better craft (both would be pretty even in speed IMO, craft is what will make a difference)

For me what i really look forward to next year is this:
Button in an established Mclaren vs
Alonso in an established Ferrari vs
Vettel in an established RBR vs
Kimi in an upcoming Lotus vs
Lewis in an upcoming Mercedes.

5 WDCs in different cars with good teammates in Rosberg, Webber, Grosjean, Perez and Massa with a chance.

Edit: forgot RoGro


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:34 am 
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kane2000 wrote:
I look at the 2013 frontteam line ups, an i must say im disappointed ferrari didnt replace massa, redbull didnt replace webber, when it comes to button im not so sure, is he really ready to bring it to alonso an vettel, after the way he gave up that podium at the last race...?


He was on old hards and lost the place to a car on newer soft's that was also geared to have max overtaking ability. Your point is weak.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:11 pm 
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M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
For me what i really look forward to next year is this:
Button in an established Mclaren vs
Alonso in an established Ferrari vs
Vettel in an established RBR vs
Kimi in an upcoming Lotus vs
Lewis in an upcoming Mercedes.



Except that Mercedes seem to be going sideways at present.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:25 pm 
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Have to admit as a Button fan, it really is great to see Jenson being recognised for being the brilliant driver he is in this thread.

I think all three deserve to be in their seats. The big question mark is over Massa, but I feel he's such a team player to Ferrari, even if he isn't quite performing to the standard they would like, they recognise just how loyal and valuable he is to the team.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:27 pm 
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Button and Webber are really good number twos. Both are good team-players with years of experience. Both teams were right to keep them on, their contributions are worth a lot.

Massa has not been close enough to Alonso to justify his place, nice person though he is. I'd have replaced him with a young charger for 2013. Too many points lost for ferrari, poor staring positions.

It's going to be fascinating to see if JB steps up as a number one at McLaren, to take on the RBR, Ferrari and Lotus-Renault number ones. And Mercedes number one/s? Assuming the McLaren car is fast enough of course.

And to see how he copes with Perez. He should be able to beat him...but who knows? F1 is full of surprising examples of new boys shading the old. Youthful energy, enthusiasm and exuberance are worth a lot. But so are experience, knowledge and assured self-confidence, as oldies Fangio, Farina, Brabham, Graham Hill and Andretti showed. JB is years younger than they were.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:23 pm 
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Can't judge Massa under Fernando's empire... Webber definitely deserves the RB drive. In my opinion, there are lot of other drivers that probably deserve that McLaren more than Jenson does, but if we are just looking at Jenson and McLaren, he has surely done enough to deserve it.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:22 am 
M.Nader -DODZ- wrote:
from your description Blinky i see that you do rank Button very high, and saying he is the second most complete driver next to Alonso by a small margin, but why is he not one of the phenomenons you mentioned?


Obviously I don't see much difference between Button and Alonso. To me, what tips the scales is how Alonso grabbed his car by the scruff of the neck and wrestled into more points than it had the potential to deliver. The Ferrari always had the potential to be quick, but it was wicked unstable at the beginning of the season, and it took a long time for Ferrari to make it benign enough to allow an uncertain Massa to finally find his form.

Button can win on any day, is very quick, but somehow isn't as capable as Alonso in a car not to his liking.

It's been a fun journey watching both Alonso and Button mature into the potent drivers they now are, both excellent at racecraft, politics, and team-building. Both are at the top of their form, last year Button was the star, and in 2012 it's Alonso's turn to really shine. Although Vettel will probably make it number three, and his future is unlimited, he's still developing, and let's face it, his team is definitely the class of the field. I don't wish to take anything away from Vettel, I'm not one of those who seeks out ways to add stipulations .. he can't race in the pack.. whoaa, Ok, he can't do this.. he can't do that, and continues to prove his critics wrong. The kid is good.

But McLaren musy be very happy they have Button locked in, imagine him and Alonso paired at Ferrari, now that would be scary.


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Well Webber and Button are the best choices at the moment, so yes. Massa at the beginning of the season would be a no but now he is consistently bringing in points which is needed for Ferrari to stay ahead of McLaren, so yes.

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 10:44 pm 
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Yes. Who would you oust them with except Raikkonen?

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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 11:05 pm 
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Button will go down in history as one of those WDCs who lucked into the championship and wasn't anything more than a reasonable driver.


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PostPosted: Mon May 13, 2013 11:09 pm 
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becker wrote:
Button will go down in history as one of those WDCs who lucked into the championship and wasn't anything more than a reasonable driver.

You cant describe him like that! I will end up getting him confused with Damon Hill!

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:23 am 
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Resurrecting a 6 month old topic, hey?

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:26 am 
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For me the only one who doesn't deserve his seat in Ferrari anymore is Massa. I really like the guy so it pains me to say that. However what it comes down to is the fact that IMO he hasn't improved enough in the past few years. Whether or not that is due to the accident - in the sense that he spent the last three years recovering where otherwise he would have progressed - is IMO irrelevant, however unfortunate. He came close to winning the WDC in 2008, but I didn't think that it was a particularly impressive year from any of the contenders and was, in fact, quite a weak year in terms of driving all around. I actually look at Monza 2008 as an example of this: Vettel in a Toro Rosso took pole while Raikkonen, Hamilton and Massa fumbled around as part of amateur hour at the back. Overall IMO his career has had ups and downs but he hasn't moved forward as a driver. Plus I would say that even when he has an 'on' day he still isn't the class of the field.

By contrast, Button and Webber are IMO not top tier drivers, but they are top of the second tier, and this is largely a result of the fact that they have developed with experience. They showed potential when they were first in the sport, didn't make the progress that I would expect of a top tier driver, but over many years have honed their skills and are significantly better drivers as a result. This is why they have been able to challenge and at times beat their teammates of Hamilton and Vettel. That Button is so good in changing conditions is IMO a sign of how much he harnesses his experience because that's when it can really have an impact. When Button and Webber are on it they have days when they are absolutely unbeatable.

The only caveat I would make to this is that Webber may well be starting to go downhill as a result of his age and the situation at Red Bull. I don't mean that in an offensive manner, just based on the fact that I recall Barrichello and Coulthard starting to go downhill around the age of 37/38 and Webber is heading to that point now. I make this point as well because while Massa and Button are younger and should in fact have a few good years left in the sport so any assessment of them is based almost solely on thier capability. Whereas Webber is getting to an age where retirement is a possibility so his performance may shift to arguably worse than Massa's over the course of this season without that being a reflection on his performance as a driver at the moment.

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:55 am 
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kane2000 wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
Good question and i have often comapred and wondered about these three myself.

Jenson Button: Yes. He is a former WDC and on that merit alone deserves a front line seat with any team. He is a better driver than what his career stats show. Not the best qualifier but more often than not compensates with his smooth and steady driving style. Very good with the lighter car and providing his car lasts the distance, probably the best finisher in F1.

Felipe Massa: Probably. He is unquestionably a very talented driver who nearly won the 2008 WDC. A nice guy and seems to retain his cool under pressure. He seems to have strangely lost confidence since returning to F1 after his injury in 2009. Whether it is the injury itself or the Alonso factor it is hard to tell; probably a bit of both. I want him to win a few more races and I think he can motivate himself to do so.

Mark Webber: Probably not. Webber is also a very good driver and his career stats just about reflect his talent. But I think he has a serious attitude problem that runs deeper than it appears on the surface. There is something lacking in his commitment unless he is fired-up, which is not often. I think he is not sure himself whether he should be driving or consider retirement and do something else.
thanks for looking at my question objectively, im not looking at rubbishing the drivers in question just to question there postions in teams...or am i doing this for my own selfish reasons...i want to see a great 2013


Sorry but no such thing as objective on here .... Can't happen. Anyone you support Vettel isn't going to be objective about Webber and Vice Versa

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 11:18 pm 
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Would have been very interesting had either Massa or Webber gone to Mclaren instead of Chico


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 12:02 am 
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moby wrote:
Would have been very interesting had either Massa or Webber gone to Mclaren instead of Chico

Yes, that would have been a season long battle that neither would wanna lose!!

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:08 am 
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This year Webber seems to have lost a little something for me. He just doesn't really seem with it at the moment (2nd place in Malaysia notwithstanding). Hope he gets his game on as otherwise I'd say RB need to stat looking around.

Having said that, he's usually solid, if not spectacular. I'm not writing him off completely yet. Just think he's gone a bit downhill recently


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