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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:18 pm 
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Im trying to understand how a car that can be the quickest on race day is not in qualifying. What changes ?


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:21 pm 
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The weight of the car.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The weight of the car.


Yup that might be it. Mercedes may have designed their cars to be very fast with an empty tank, big failure.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:35 pm 
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RacingFan1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The weight of the car.


Yup that might be it. Mercedes may have designed their cars to be very fast with an empty tank, big failure.



Don't they qualify with full tanks ? If not that would mean that downforce is perfect when low on fuel but then when full they have too much of it therefore their tires get used up faster.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:38 pm 
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Spyhawk wrote:
RacingFan1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The weight of the car.


Yup that might be it. Mercedes may have designed their cars to be very fast with an empty tank, big failure.



Don't they qualify with full tanks ? If not that would mean that downforce is perfect when low on fuel but then when full they have too much of it therefore their tires get used up faster.

I don't believe F1 cars have ever qualified with full tanks

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Spyhawk wrote:
RacingFan1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The weight of the car.


Yup that might be it. Mercedes may have designed their cars to be very fast with an empty tank, big failure.



Don't they qualify with full tanks ? If not that would mean that downforce is perfect when low on fuel but then when full they have too much of it therefore their tires get used up faster.

I don't believe F1 cars have ever qualified with full tanks



Oh I thought that all cars had to start the race with the amount of fuel they had onboard for final qualifying.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:45 pm 
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Spyhawk wrote:
Im trying to understand how a car that can be the quickest on race day is not in qualifying. What changes ?

That being Mercedes the obvious thing for me is that it simply puts too much heat through the tyres and they're only good for a few laps before they overheat

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:48 pm 
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Spyhawk wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Spyhawk wrote:
RacingFan1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The weight of the car.


Yup that might be it. Mercedes may have designed their cars to be very fast with an empty tank, big failure.



Don't they qualify with full tanks ? If not that would mean that downforce is perfect when low on fuel but then when full they have too much of it therefore their tires get used up faster.

I don't believe F1 cars have ever qualified with full tanks



Oh I thought that all cars had to start the race with the amount of fuel they had onboard for final qualifying.

They changed that after refuelling in the race was banned. No need to qualify on race fuel.

Why do you think Hamilton and Vettel were disqualified and sent to the back of the grid last year for running out of fuel after qualifying? If they had to stick with the load for the start of the race, they would have been very short races.

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 5:48 pm 
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Spyhawk wrote:
Oh I thought that all cars had to start the race with the amount of fuel they had onboard for final qualifying.


That was some years ago when there was still refuelling in the race and the fuel tanks were small, now they are much bigger and it makes a big difference being full or empty, I dont know how many kilogrambs, but it should make the car behave very differently.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:12 pm 
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Spyhawk wrote:
Im trying to understand how a car that can be the quickest on race day is not in qualifying. What changes ?


It is due to the weight difference with a full tank of fuel added for races, but it is also the limited use of DRS. In qualifying they can use DRS everytime in the DRS zone. In the race they can only use DRS when they're within one second of the car in front and in the DRS zone.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:18 pm 
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kleefton wrote:

It is due to the weight difference with a full tank of fuel added for races, but it is also the limited use of DRS. In qualifying they can use DRS everytime in the DRS zone. In the race they can only use DRS when they're within one second of the car in front and in the DRS zone.


DRS doesn't play as big a role as empty fuel tanks. DRS gives approximately 0.3-0.4 seconds a lap, while the difference between empty and full fuel loads is 8-9 seconds.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:41 pm 
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RacingFan1 wrote:
Spyhawk wrote:
Oh I thought that all cars had to start the race with the amount of fuel they had onboard for final qualifying.


That was some years ago when there was still refuelling in the race and the fuel tanks were small, now they are much bigger and it makes a big difference being full or empty, I dont know how many kilogrambs, but it should make the car behave very differently.

I believe it's around 150-155 kilos of fuel depending on the track.

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 6:44 pm 
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No refuelling adds a degree to the design of the car, in ballast (balance, centre-of-gravity...). Based on what I have read so far, I'd guess that Mercedes have not managed an optimal job in this aspect.

EDIT: Wow - have I just solved Mercedes' problem?!?!?

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:05 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
The weight of the car.


That... and.. tires... one worm-up lap and one all-out "flying" lap. Thus the last 1.5 min of the entire qualies is all what one really needs to see on Saturday.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:12 pm 
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Spyhawk wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Spyhawk wrote:
RacingFan1 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
The weight of the car.


Yup that might be it. Mercedes may have designed their cars to be very fast with an empty tank, big failure.



Don't they qualify with full tanks ? If not that would mean that downforce is perfect when low on fuel but then when full they have too much of it therefore their tires get used up faster.

I don't believe F1 cars have ever qualified with full tanks



Oh I thought that all cars had to start the race with the amount of fuel they had onboard for final qualifying.

That would mean that the tanks would have to be full because surely there isn´t any spare room in these tanks so that they could drive more than one race distance with the tank full. You do remember that they don´t put more fuel into them during the race, don´t you?


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:36 pm 
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Mercedes and Red Bull are also very good at turning tyres on. They are also very good at making tyres last no time at all. which means they have to go slower to make them last as long as Ferrari or Lotus.

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 7:39 pm 
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Point45 wrote:
kleefton wrote:

It is due to the weight difference with a full tank of fuel added for races, but it is also the limited use of DRS. In qualifying they can use DRS everytime in the DRS zone. In the race they can only use DRS when they're within one second of the car in front and in the DRS zone.


DRS doesn't play as big a role as empty fuel tanks. DRS gives approximately 0.3-0.4 seconds a lap, while the difference between empty and full fuel loads is 8-9 seconds.


Right...but it still counts.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:11 pm 
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Spyhawk wrote:
Im trying to understand how a car that can be the quickest on race day is not in qualifying. What changes ?


Compare it to a large fence and a tin of paint.

Qualifying is the first pannel. You can do it as thick as you like to make it the best, or wou can put on just enough and have paint left to cover the whole fence.


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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:14 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
RacingFan1 wrote:
Spyhawk wrote:
Oh I thought that all cars had to start the race with the amount of fuel they had onboard for final qualifying.


That was some years ago when there was still refuelling in the race and the fuel tanks were small, now they are much bigger and it makes a big difference being full or empty, I dont know how many kilogrambs, but it should make the car behave very differently.

I believe it's around 150-155 kilos of fuel depending on the track.

Approximately 160 kilogrammes or 230 litres according to offical F1 site.

http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2013/4/14512.html

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 8:35 pm 
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Point45 wrote:
kleefton wrote:

It is due to the weight difference with a full tank of fuel added for races, but it is also the limited use of DRS. In qualifying they can use DRS everytime in the DRS zone. In the race they can only use DRS when they're within one second of the car in front and in the DRS zone.



DRS doesn't play as big a role as empty fuel tanks. DRS gives approximately 0.3-0.4 seconds a lap, while the difference between empty and full fuel loads is 8-9 seconds.


This is the right explanation, very clear, and good to have times. 150 kg in a 650 kg package is over 20%, a huge difference. It must have a big effect on aero, braking, handling, tyres (ask Mercedes).

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PostPosted: Tue May 14, 2013 10:21 pm 
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Engine modes are probably worth at least 1 second per lap. On their final quali lap they're probably running maximum power and using all the revs which I doubt they use for more than 5 laps in the race.

Also in races they have to manage things such as tire and brake temperature which are optimized for quali.

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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 10:42 am 
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You can't use DRS at any point in qualifying only the same places as in the race.


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PostPosted: Wed May 15, 2013 9:14 pm 
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cmberry20 wrote:
You can't use DRS at any point in qualifying only the same places as in the race.


Something that has only just occurred to me. In Qualli, you get the DRS, but no air disturbance from car close infront.
They Should be quicker onto the straight, and going faster when they get DRS. They also dont have to go offline to pass a car.


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 12:03 pm 
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moby wrote:
cmberry20 wrote:
You can't use DRS at any point in qualifying only the same places as in the race.


Something that has only just occurred to me. In Qualli, you get the DRS, but no air disturbance from car close infront.
They Should be quicker onto the straight, and going faster when they get DRS. They also dont have to go offline to pass a car.

Yeah but they don't get to slipstream on the straight so the difference is probably negligible.

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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2013 1:01 pm 
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dizlexik wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
RacingFan1 wrote:
Spyhawk wrote:
Oh I thought that all cars had to start the race with the amount of fuel they had onboard for final qualifying.


That was some years ago when there was still refuelling in the race and the fuel tanks were small, now they are much bigger and it makes a big difference being full or empty, I dont know how many kilogrambs, but it should make the car behave very differently.

I believe it's around 150-155 kilos of fuel depending on the track.

Approximately 160 kilogrammes or 230 litres according to offical F1 site.

http://www.formula1.com/news/features/2013/4/14512.html


Considering that the cars are VERY lightweight, that must make an ENORMOUS difference (full tank and empty tank) completely different car behavior


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