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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:35 pm 
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shibbytude wrote:
gregwil wrote:
Is Alonso had to win the championship after this it would be by far and away the least deserving WDC of all times.


I would love to see Alonso win the world title just to gherkin off people like you who's hatred of a guy (Alonso) is almost scary, its like he has done something personally in your life. You need to get a grip mate.


People like that do need to get a grip, you're right. As do people who actively wish to gherkin of other forum users who they've never met :)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:35 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
Oh, come on! RBR would never do such a thing as what Ferrari did today. Only they can stoop solow and what's more, get away with it.

In Brazil 2010 RBR gave no team orders when Vettel was leading in Brazil and Webber running second when the Aussie had a substantial points lead over his teammate. RBR could not have known at that stage that Vettel would be on pole in the next race in Abu Dhabi, much less go on to win it. With Alonso leading the group, it would have been in their interest to ask Vettel to let Webber through in Brazil and yet they did not do it.

I have lost what little respect I had for Massa. He has lost all pride and allowed himself to be a lapdog for the money. This is out and out cheating and I hope that Alonso crashes out of the race. He no longer deserves to win the title.


This.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:35 pm 
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fieldstvl wrote:
Perhaps anger should be being directed towards the fact that the potential disparity between the clean and dirty side of the grid is prompting this sort of action...

Spot on,

I'm surprised more people haven't made noise about this. The FIA seem completely unconcerned that somebody qualifying in 2nd should be at a disadvantage to someone qualifying 3rd for example, it makes qualifying a bit of a farce really.

The FIA coulc've cleaned the track as Hamilton suggested, possibly moved the even number slots forward closer to the preceeding odd ones or who knows, maybe pressure washed the rubber off the clean side. If they're capable of installing new curbs overnight, you'd think they could do something in this instance.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:36 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
I have lost what little respect I had for Massa. He has lost all pride and allowed himself to be a lapdog for the money. This is out and out cheating and I hope that Alonso crashes out of the race. He no longer deserves to win the title.

If you seriously think they walked up to felipe and said "would you mind?" then you know bugger all about how Ferrari works.

Felipe gets zero say on anything there. The only reason he's still there is because he knows he wouldn't get a drive anywhere else.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:37 pm 
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Go Fred

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:38 pm 
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Really does make me laugh some of the comments on this thread

Vettel haters gonna hate

Alonso haters gonna hate

Its just how it rolls,

And I have forgotten that RB haven't done a single thing wrong this year (or last year) they haven't manipulated the rules, nor broke them, nor used them to their advantage at all


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:38 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
I have lost what little respect I had for Massa. He has lost all pride and allowed himself to be a lapdog for the money. This is out and out cheating and I hope that Alonso crashes out of the race. He no longer deserves to win the title.

If you seriously think they walked up to felipe and said "would you mind?" then you know bugger all about how Ferrari works.

Felipe gets zero say on anything there. The only reason he's still there is because he knows he wouldn't get a drive anywhere else.


That and he knows where the bodies are berried :twisted:





(yes I know)

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:39 pm 
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Zekenwolf wrote:
Oh, come on! RBR would never do such a thing as what Ferrari did today. Only they can stoop solow and what's more, get away with it.

In Brazil 2010 RBR gave no team orders when Vettel was leading in Brazil and Webber running second when the Aussie had a substantial points lead over his teammate. RBR could not have known at that stage that Vettel would be on pole in the next race in Abu Dhabi, much less go on to win it. With Alonso leading the group, it would have been in their interest to ask Vettel to let Webber through in Brazil and yet they did not do it.

I have lost what little respect I had for Massa. He has lost all pride and allowed himself to be a lapdog for the money. This is out and out cheating and I hope that Alonso crashes out of the race. He no longer deserves to win the title.


There was nothing to get away with. They broke no rules.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:40 pm 
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moby wrote:
RickM wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
I have lost what little respect I had for Massa. He has lost all pride and allowed himself to be a lapdog for the money. This is out and out cheating and I hope that Alonso crashes out of the race. He no longer deserves to win the title.

If you seriously think they walked up to felipe and said "would you mind?" then you know bugger all about how Ferrari works.

Felipe gets zero say on anything there. The only reason he's still there is because he knows he wouldn't get a drive anywhere else.


That and he knows where the bodies are berried :twisted:





(yes I know)



Berried? what do they do, put them in a pick bowl of Cranberry jelly :P

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:40 pm 
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Oh the irony if Alonso DNF in this race for gearbox problem..


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:40 pm 
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JohnnyGuitar wrote:
6_Tenths wrote:
Point may have already been made...

Vettel seems to profit week in week out from a sister team...all is fair in world of the FIA



How?


How long have you got.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:42 pm 
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Hmm.. surprised at the number of people saying smart move by ferrari.

May be they are within the rules, but they are sodding massa over and over. This is a sport guys, there is no essence to the sport if you influence too many things non-sporting to get a result.

My respect for alonso dropped a bit here. May be this is what he was saying all along "red bull have a faster car, we are a better team". he knows ferrari will make massa bend over backwards to keep alonso happy.

Vettel for WDC 2012.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:43 pm 
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6_Tenths wrote:
JohnnyGuitar wrote:
6_Tenths wrote:
Point may have already been made...

Vettel seems to profit week in week out from a sister team...all is fair in world of the FIA



How?


How long have you got.

:lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:43 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Underviewer wrote:
fieldstvl wrote:
Not a Ferrari/Alonso/Red Bull/Vettel fan. Not in the slightest. But I'd be concerned if any team didn't do this. If the rules allow it, which they currently do, then it has to be done.


Is it in the spirit of the rules though? I don't think so. It will be yet another rule which the FIA will need to change to stop it happening again. I actually blame the FIA just as much as Ferrari for this. Allowing the 'dirty' side become so much of an issue and allowing a rule to be abused in such a ridiculous way.

Are double diffusers or flexi wings in the spirit of the rules?

Sticking to the non-existent "spirit of the rules" won't get you anywhere in F1. Ferrari's design department has found that out the hard way.


The thing is, Ferrari have affected other people's starting positions with this. Some have benefited by going from the dirty to clean side and from what I can see, Senna will go from clean to dirty side. There could be a big row over this depending on what happens at the start. The rule will have to be changed.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:44 pm 
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funkymonkey wrote:
Why would RBR risk move Alonso even closer to Vettel regardless the dirty side.
I have no problem with this at all. Teams take advantage of rules all the time. Last race I thought RBR will not be allowed to change gear ratios. I was proved wrong. This when there is a mention in rules about specifics about changing ratios.
Now Ferrari has done this when the is nothing in rules. Just like the was nothing in rules about the now illegal parts that Redbull raced this year.

Not to mention now everyone except Grosjean will be starting on the side where they actually qualified on merit. Alonso was 9th. He moved to bad side due to Grosjeans penalty.

If this prompts rule change, good. But as I said before, or would have been stupid of Ferrari not to do this when so much is on the line.


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:48 pm 
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Have not read the entire thread but SD was just on swedish tv and said that there was no reason for them to lie, and that this was purely a strategic move to help Alonso.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:48 pm 
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El_Chuzalongo wrote:
Cheap move by Ferrari. I feel really sad for Massa. He did a good job in qualy only to be destroyed just because Master Alonso can move a place up in the grid.


Massa would be happy to a certain extend because he also got a clean side of the grid. Speed mentioned Massa said the dirty side is like starting in wet conditions. And why would Ferrari let Massa take Alonso's points in this stage of the championship?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:50 pm 
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All the Massa fans come to see him race must be happy. But nothing you wouldn't expect from Ferrari and Alonso.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:50 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
funkymonkey wrote:
Why would RBR risk move Alonso even closer to Vettel regardless the dirty side.
I have no problem with this at all. Teams take advantage of rules all the time. Last race I thought RBR will not be allowed to change gear ratios. I was proved wrong. This when there is a mention in rules about specifics about changing ratios.
Now Ferrari has done this when the is nothing in rules. Just like the was nothing in rules about the now illegal parts that Redbull raced this year.

Not to mention now everyone except Grosjean will be starting on the side where they actually qualified on merit. Alonso was 9th. He moved to bad side due to Grosjeans penalty.

If this prompts rule change, good. But as I said before, or would have been stupid of Ferrari not to do this when so much is on the line.


:thumbup:


not everyone - Kimi moved to the dirty side by Grosjean demotion and not affected by Massa's

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:51 pm 
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Do I have a problem with it? Not really.

Would Red Bull have done it? I don't think so.

Is it harsh on Massa? Yes but he is lucky to be there anyway.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:54 pm 
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Its a TEAM sport, all the TEAM have done is keep within the rulebook to give themselves a slightly better advatntage

Same as RB have done all year


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:54 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

Would Red Bull have done it? I don't think so.


They would have if in the same position and would have thought of it.
They just interviewed Horner and he said they had no problem with it and that it is within the rules so yes... I think they would have done it.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:55 pm 
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They said its an "illegal" move on Australian TV

Not sure they know the rules :D


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:55 pm 
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It's not that hard to fix this ...

Break parc ferme, start from the pit lane and the grid remains the same.

That would concentrate a few minds.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:55 pm 
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Yes this is team sport but there are other drivers and teams that are affected by this. Gain advantage inside the team, not give disadvantage to others.


Last edited by WJF1 on Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:56 pm 
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Anyway, the race is on :D


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:56 pm 
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Felipe just said on Sky "you won't find another driver like me". I agree with Ferrari's decision, but feel pretty bad for the guy.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:56 pm 
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twigg2324 wrote:
It's not that hard to fix this ...

Break parc ferme, start from the pit lane and the grid remains the same.

That would concentrate a few minds.


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:57 pm 
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twigg2324 wrote:
It's not that hard to fix this ...

Break parc ferme, start from the pit lane and the grid remains the same.

That would concentrate a few minds.



which means re-writing the rule book mid event.

And to think people complain about the constantly changing rules and "Clarifications"

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:58 pm 
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https://twitter.com/Lotus_F1Team/status ... 13/photo/1

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:00 pm 
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RickM wrote:
Zekenwolf wrote:
I have lost what little respect I had for Massa. He has lost all pride and allowed himself to be a lapdog for the money. This is out and out cheating and I hope that Alonso crashes out of the race. He no longer deserves to win the title.

If you seriously think they walked up to felipe and said "would you mind?" then you know bugger all about how Ferrari works.

Felipe gets zero say on anything there. The only reason he's still there is because he knows he wouldn't get a drive anywhere else.


If Massa had at least a decent respect for himself, he wouldn't pulled over for Alonso in Germany 2010. He should have won that race and let Ferrari kick him out of the team. But once he accepted to be a guinea pig, well... a guinea pig he will remain for the rest of his disgraced career. Hamilton didn't take Alonso's crap and look what happened - he became a successful world wide champion and kept on scoring regular wins. Respect to that.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:00 pm 
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shibbytude wrote:
gregwil wrote:
Is Alonso had to win the championship after this it would be by far and away the least deserving WDC of all times.


I would love to see Alonso win the world title just to gherkin off people like you who's hatred of a guy (Alonso) is almost scary, its like he has done something personally in your life. You need to get a grip mate.
Of course he has done something personal against me, I have been an avid fan of this sport for 25 years and to see the sport I love being manipulated like this really gets me down.

And my hatred for this guy does not even come close to the way many of the forumer's on here hatred of Vettel.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:02 pm 
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Well, let's see if it is worth it. Obviously I would have preferred the move not to be necessary.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:02 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
twigg2324 wrote:
It's not that hard to fix this ...

Break parc ferme, start from the pit lane and the grid remains the same.

That would concentrate a few minds.



which means re-writing the rule book mid event.

And to think people complain about the constantly changing rules and "Clarifications"


Where did I mention that it should be done now?


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:03 pm 
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fieldstvl wrote:
Felipe just said on Sky "you won't find another driver like me". I agree with Ferrari's decision, but feel pretty bad for the guy.

Yes, I would really like for him to have his payback in the not too distant future.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 7:36 pm 
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Massa could be fighting for the win...

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:49 pm 
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Massa was stripped possible win. Great drive by him. Sadly Alonso gained a lot from start and then he was just coasting. Cheap points, important points but still bad taste. Next race we might see something even desperate from Ferrari. Massa seems to do anything team wants. Even to go little dirty on Vettel.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 8:52 pm 
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Poor Massa.. talk about selling your soul to the devil.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:01 pm 
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great team play from ferrari.

red bull should have copied with webber after and now would have bigger points gap.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 9:04 pm 
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Massa didn't exactly do too bad out of it.

Anyone want to do the maths on average places dropped from the dirty side?

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