planetf1.com

In relation to the post about red bull found to be bending/cheating the sport

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/ju ... 1-loophole

The FIA has closed the loophole that allowed Red Bull to use engine mapping to gain a performance improvement, after the issue was highlighted hours before the start of last week's German Grand Prix in Hockenheim.

http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/77919 ... r-Illegal-

Hours after Christian Horner claimed the FIA's upcoming ruling on his RB8's hole would declare it legal, it has reportedly done just the opposite.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... fb4271.361

Following the controversy at the previous race in Monaco where the floor of the Red Bull car was judged to be illegal, world motorsport's governing body the FIA have ruled that the front wheel hub did not comply with Formula 1 regulations despite the design having been on the car since the start of the season.


On 3 occasions in one season they have been found to be borderline and in one case illegal, is this trolling, by asking the view of fellow posters? Would this years constructors championship be tarnished by this?

Not meant to troll but get an honest view of what people think.... This is why we debate and ask questions

If i have upset people in asking this i am sorry.

They werent illegal until the FIA banned them, then RB stopped using them ... no issues here, just trolling.

Every team tries to take advantage of loopholes and bend the rules as far as they can. However most people in F1 agree that Red Bull push it a bit too far. Even Ross Brawn said something to that effect and normally he is a very quietly spoken guy.

Hours after Christian Horner claimed the FIA's upcoming ruling on his RB8's hole would declare it legal, it has reportedly done just the opposite.

Clearly not!

Wait what? Isn't that just saying:

Horner said the FIA would deem it legal
The FIA deemed it illegal

...?

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agreed I find it amazing no points deduction or fine..... 3 times which have been found thus far in one season. Is this fairness of fellow sportsmen? This is the question

The hole wasn't illegal until the FIA decided to MAKE it illegal. If the FIA doesn't change a race result or issue some sort of penalty, there is nothing illegal. Declaring something illegal from "now" on only affects the future legality. Find an FIA statement that anything the rb8's have raced with IS ILLEGAL WHEN THEY RACED WITH IT.

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Was it legal ? NO
Was it Illegal? YES

Quite clear to me cheating

its only a matter of time ....

I don't think it is trolling

It is a perfectly good question (it may however have been done to death previously)

I'm sure Ferrari with Schumacher were partly guilty of this too (but I guess that was largely Ross Brawn)

Here is my opinion of it

Red Bull / Ferrari / Any clever tech have their own interpretation of the rules and clearly use them to their advantage

Other teams complain because they can't design / develop / reverse engineer / copy the other team

FIA investigates, then the changes are banned and determined illegal

My question is, why are they not illegal until the FIA investigate then make them illegal but don't penalise the team, although I am guessing the team would argue that it wasn't illegal until they got caught

What suddenly makes these designs illegal ?

Was it legal? YES! Until it is declared illegal, it is within the rules. Is it legal now? No.

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They raced with the hole for how many races? Engine mapping for how many races?

and the rule about the brakes being used as advantage for aero has been in there for years

The issue is different depending on how you look at it:

For most things, it seems the teams will seek approval or clarity from the FIA before fitting. If it's a grey area, they will still go ahead anyway and hope for the best, as they are unlikely to be penalised for grey area or minor rule interpretation issues. I can also imagine that the FIA won't issue a ruling unless some other team complains or asks?

If RBR have been simply pushing the rules on the quiet, i.e. fitting 'pushy' stuff to their car, and leaving it there until challenged - I think that is bordering on cheating, and certainly not very sporting.

What I want to know is how these things were discovered, and why they were subsequently changed?

If the FIA hasn't thought to expressly prohibit something, it is legal. Its simply a matter of teams coming up with ideas that are not addressed by the rules. The FIA then notices them and says "no, we don't want that, it is illegal now" and the car is then changed. No breach of rules.

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Neither the hole or their maps were illegal when they raced them.

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Where in the rules, before the FIA deemed it illegal, did it say it was illegal?

Do you understand the meaning of a "loophole" or in fact, do you even understand the meaning of "rules"?

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That was sort of my point and question, I know they are 'deemed legal' because they push the rules and boundaries until challenged, once challenged they become illegal

I know it isn't rule breaking as such but it is a little unsporting

By fluke of journos taking pictures,
The crash when the RB was in the air...

Can you imagine what is going on in MK????

I agree its not sportsman like at all, I see it like this one scale a team like HRT are having to scrimp and save but be competitive within the rules, then you have Red Bull who spend fortunes then blast the back makers even though they have illegal designs/ parts on there car.
I feel the FIA should stick up for the little guys alot more than they do in this area and should punish them for it.

I don't think its unsporting because i think the FIA sometimes occasionally leaves gray areas in the rules expressly so that teams will think creatively. The sport would be nowhere...development and advances would shrink...if there were no such thing as exploiting loopholes. Charlie Whiting has even said it is the teams' job to do this, and its as it should be. If the FIA didn't want this to go on, or thought it was unsporting, F1 would be a spec series.

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The only thing that was stretched too much was the enclosed hole in the floor. That was actually deemed against the rules by FIA. The general consensus was that it was illegal. But at that point the qualification was over and it was at the "most prestigious" F1 event on calender in presence of royalty and whos who of F1, business, political and financial world. The only reason RedBull got away with it was FIA's unwillingness to pursue this matter and the fact that other teams agreed they will not pursue this matter to avoid controversy.

Calling it cheating is too much. RedBull have bent the rules far too many times, but they have done just that, bend the rules. If anyone is to blame it is FIA for not taking firm position on some things. FIA is too rigid and sometimes common sense does not prevail there.

THe FIA doesnt have to wait to see pictures. They have eyes and hands on every car every weekend. Every team has staff who do little but "spy" on the other teams to try to copy or tattle on them. The paddock is a bit self regulating in that regard. If someone is doing something illegal - as in using something ACTUALLY banned by the technical or sporting regs - you can bet someone within the circus will know and point it out. You're kidding yourself if you think these guys manage to keep anything "hidden" long enough to benefit.

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It's already been explained to you several times in this thread, but you don't seem to be listening.

RBR have always removed parts that the FIA deem illegal, the parts you're talking about were never illegal when they fitted them, they have always been deemed illegal *after the fact*.

It was teams like Toyota, back in 2009, who had a flexible rear wing who were *actually* running illegal parts. Same for Ferrari in 2007, at the same circuit, with a flexible floor - already written as illegal in the rules.

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You drive down a stretch of road every day at 50 mph.
one morning you get there and there is a 30 sign there............

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I find television very educating. Every time somebody turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book.

Marx (Groucho)

bingo. if thats not a simple enough explanation, some folks will NEVER understand.

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The torque maps were deemed as being illegal by the FiA, but they couldn't take any action because of their stupid wording in the rules.

Obviously as the fastest car, Red bull have some magic tricks up their sleeves to gain extra speed over the rest. Evidence is in the history of Adrian Newey's designs, he always has some smart ideas, like Mclaren's extra pedal and the blown diffuser.

Obviously, the Fia's rulemakers aren't the smartest bunch, since they leave a lot of grey areas and loopholes that some teams exploit for an advantage. Red bull didn't necessarily break any rules, but they were a bit unsporting, in that they didn't give proper respect to the rules.

The whole flexi wing saga was really frustrating, Red bull were clearly seen to be running front wings which flexed below the minimum height required, but the Fia were too incompetent to detect it and ban it. That was ridiculous.

well, I don't know about F1 scrutineering - but I do know about bike road race scrutineering (e.g. IOM TT races, etc). There, the scrutineers are mostly interested in safety issues and checking for mod parts, etc (if supposed to be a stock race) etc. The scrutineers are not usually mechanics/engineers - and in F1, I doubt there are any Newey quality scrutineers looking at the ins and outs of all the systems on the cars. If there were, I would feel happier! - look at the fluid transfer/ballast issue?

Overall, you have to look at RBR and ask yourself a simple question - are they constantly pushing or bending the rules in an overly competitive manner (i.e. not really being very sporting) in the hope of getting through the system?

I dislike cheats. At the end of the day, being beaten by a cheat is no disgrace - because you always have the internal satisfaction of playing fair. They, on the other hand, can have no self pride, or self respect when claiming their achievement. It is no better than the doping activities in sport - cheating simply proves that person/team is incapable of honest competition and not worthy of discussion.

No how i see it is like this

You drive down a road and there is a 30 sign
however you get stopped doing 50
you argue it is a broken speedo
however still means you are going 50 in a 30.

DERP

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I salute you

Then you are not understanding what has happened lol Sorry dude.

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I agree - I dislike cheats as well. If RBR had used something that is expressly banned by the letter of the FIA sporting or technical regs, they would be cheating. But they haven't. So they aren't cheating, and I don't have any problems with it. Just like all the other teams.

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Didnt I call it as trolling in the first post?


If this guy cant even admit that the parts were legal when they were put on the car then deemed illegal at a later date and removed than we have no where to go with this thread.

A broken speedo is not an offense. Had you beendoing 30 with a broken speedo you would be fine.
You are not being punished for knowing you were breaking the rule, just for doing it.

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I find television very educating. Every time somebody turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book.

Marx (Groucho)

BTW, F-duct. McLaren put it on in 2010, illegal in 2011... Cheating?

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I just don't like unsportsmanlike like behaviour, I see it as the same as cheating.
If you think they have been fair this season after all the advantages they have had on their car compared with their competitors, that is not fair at all.

I'm just gonna remind everyone, for probably the ten thousandth time on this board, that there is no such thing as INTENT or SPIRIT OF THE RULES in F1.

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Every single team has the same opportunity, and utilizes it to make gains. How is it an unfair advantage?

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So DarthVadar ... whats your team? McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes ... ?

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You mean i'm losing my argument let me deflect onto someone else...

Stick to the topic please thanks

Mclaren didnt win the constructors in 2010 wish they did though.