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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:13 pm 
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Ferrari taking grid penalty for Felipe to move Fernando into a more desirable position. Merc, FI, Sauber, and I think STR have all chosen not to run in q3 to save tires at some point in this season and give them a tire advantage. None of these things are particularly pure in terms of sportsmanship are they? But they are allowed by the rules, so kudos to those teams for taking advantage. If you don't like that kind of attitude, which team exactly DO you like? Big HRT fan are ya?

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:14 pm 
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Bakerking31 wrote:
So DarthVadar ... whats your team? McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes ... ?


Mclaren, Ferrari, Renault, JPS, Jaguar, Jordan, HRT, Caterham, Mercedes i love motorsport


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:14 pm 
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DarthVadar wrote:
sgt.hartman wrote:
DarthVadar wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
moby wrote:
You drive down a stretch of road every day at 50 mph.
one morning you get there and there is a 30 sign there............

bingo. if thats not a simple enough explanation, some folks will NEVER understand.


No how i see it is like this

You drive down a road and there is a 30 sign
however you get stopped doing 50
you argue it is a broken speedo
however still means you are going 50 in a 30.


BTW, F-duct. McLaren put it on in 2010, illegal in 2011... Cheating?



You mean i'm losing my argument let me deflect onto someone else...

Stick to the topic please thanks

Mclaren didnt win the constructors in 2010 wish they did though.

So your only problem with RBR is that they are more effective at exploiting loopholes than the other teams? Makes sense.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:14 pm 
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DarthVadar wrote:
sgt.hartman wrote:
DarthVadar wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
moby wrote:
You drive down a stretch of road every day at 50 mph.
one morning you get there and there is a 30 sign there............

bingo. if thats not a simple enough explanation, some folks will NEVER understand.


No how i see it is like this

You drive down a road and there is a 30 sign
however you get stopped doing 50
you argue it is a broken speedo
however still means you are going 50 in a 30.


BTW, F-duct. McLaren put it on in 2010, illegal in 2011... Cheating?



You mean i'm losing my argument let me deflect onto someone else...

Stick to the topic please thanks

Mclaren didnt win the constructors in 2010 wish they did though.


So by your logic it's okay to "cheat" (even though Red Bull aren't), so long as you're not winning. Okay.

I'm providing an alternate yet comparable scenario, much like the "50mph/30mph one earlier", in an effort to help you see how wrong you are.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:15 pm 
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This is a pinnacle sport. Reaching out in every sense possible is part of the game. Teams must push every advantage they can. The FIA must watch carefully, interpret and rule on whether or not things that are new, and that have never previously been defined as illegal are permitted.

It's as simple as the 30 - 50 posted speed example. Clear as can be.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:16 pm 
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ashley313 wrote:
Ferrari taking grid penalty for Felipe to move Fernando into a more desirable position. Merc, FI, Sauber, and I think STR have all chosen not to run in q3 to save tires at some point in this season and give them a tire advantage. None of these things are particularly pure in terms of sportsmanship are they? But they are allowed by the rules, so kudos to those teams for taking advantage. If you don't like that kind of attitude, which team exactly DO you like? Big HRT fan are ya?


Come on ASH you are going completly off topic when does saving tyres in quali have more of advantage of having a massive gapping hole adding extra downforce?
Or having an engine map which basically means I can blast round that corner without lifting?

MY HRT may be like bambi on ice but she is at least innocent.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:16 pm 
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Cheating is exactly what Renault did at Singapore 08 or what McLaren did with spygate in 2007.

Also McLaren was also asked to modify their floors at the beginning of the season. Were they cheats then?

Someone doesn't become to have 'retroactively' cheated anytime when FIA issues additions, restrictions, clarifications to rules.

Blown diffusers was never illegal when they were introduced. It was not even bending or pushing the rules' boundary. FIA "chose" to significantly reduce its effect in the new season with bringing new exhaust position
regulations.

I don't like sore losers. They don't achieve much in life but always complain about others successes...


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:18 pm 
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Posts: 1445
DarthVadar wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Ferrari taking grid penalty for Felipe to move Fernando into a more desirable position. Merc, FI, Sauber, and I think STR have all chosen not to run in q3 to save tires at some point in this season and give them a tire advantage. None of these things are particularly pure in terms of sportsmanship are they? But they are allowed by the rules, so kudos to those teams for taking advantage. If you don't like that kind of attitude, which team exactly DO you like? Big HRT fan are ya?


Come on ASH you are going completly off topic when does saving tyres in quali have more of advantage of having a massive gapping hole adding extra downforce?
Or having an engine map which basically means I can blast round that corner without lifting?

MY HRT may be like bambi on ice but she is at least innocent.


It is against forum rules to accuse someone of trolling, so I'm absolutely not going to do that...

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:19 pm 
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Posts: 2075
DarthVadar wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
moby wrote:
You drive down a stretch of road every day at 50 mph.
one morning you get there and there is a 30 sign there............

bingo. if thats not a simple enough explanation, some folks will NEVER understand.


No how i see it is like this

You drive down a road and there is a 30 sign
however you get stopped doing 50
you argue it is a broken speedo
however still means you are going 50 in a 30.

Point proven.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:20 pm 
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Posts: 3029
DarthVadar wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
Ferrari taking grid penalty for Felipe to move Fernando into a more desirable position. Merc, FI, Sauber, and I think STR have all chosen not to run in q3 to save tires at some point in this season and give them a tire advantage. None of these things are particularly pure in terms of sportsmanship are they? But they are allowed by the rules, so kudos to those teams for taking advantage. If you don't like that kind of attitude, which team exactly DO you like? Big HRT fan are ya?


Come on ASH you are going completly off topic when does saving tyres in quali have more of advantage of having a massive gapping hole adding extra downforce?
Or having an engine map which basically means I can blast round that corner without lifting?

MY HRT may be like bambi on ice but she is at least innocent.

Please, in detail, explain to me exactly how much downforce was gained (both in relation to drag coefficient and lap time) by the holes. If you can't, then I'm sorry but you have no idea what benefit was to be had from the holes. Also, please provide a photo of the "massive gaping hole", including its measurements, to prove that it was massive and gaping. Don't try to compare advantages of tire savings or grid position to an aero design if you can't prove your hypothesis.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:21 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
DarthVadar wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
moby wrote:
You drive down a stretch of road every day at 50 mph.
one morning you get there and there is a 30 sign there............

bingo. if thats not a simple enough explanation, some folks will NEVER understand.


No how i see it is like this

You drive down a road and there is a 30 sign
however you get stopped doing 50
you argue it is a broken speedo
however still means you are going 50 in a 30.

Point proven.

When has RBR ever argued that something on their car was legal because it was defective? Or that something being defective negates the need for something to be legal? Where do you guys even get this nonsense jeeeeez.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:21 pm 
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PacificBeach wrote:
Cheating is exactly what Renault did at Singapore 08 or what McLaren did with spygate in 2007.

Also McLaren was also asked to modify their floors at the beginning of the season. Were they cheats then?

Someone doesn't become to have 'retroactively' cheated anytime when FIA issues additions, restrictions, clarifications to rules.

Blown diffusers was never illegal when they were introduced. It was not even bending or pushing the rules' boundary. FIA "chose" to significantly reduce its effect in the new season with bringing new exhaust position
regulations.

I don't like sore losers. They don't achieve much in life but always complain about others successes...


I don't like braggers, who manipulate a scenario to fit there own agenda and then claim dumbness when it comes to sporting clarification.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:24 pm 
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Posts: 440
Location: San Diego, California USA
DarthVadar wrote:
Bakerking31 wrote:
So DarthVadar ... whats your team? McLaren, Ferrari, Mercedes ... ?


Mclaren, Ferrari, Renault, JPS, Jaguar, Jordan, HRT, Caterham, Mercedes i love motorsport


you gave me too much material here


Mclaren - F-duct - was later deemed illegal, they must be cheating
Ferrari - "Alonso is faster than you" team orders, was actually illegal when it was used too
Renault - Piquet crashgate so Alonso could win
Mercedes - Double DRS ... also being banned because its not within the intent of the rules. but is legal until the end of the season.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:24 pm 
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Posts: 3029
DarthVadar wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
Cheating is exactly what Renault did at Singapore 08 or what McLaren did with spygate in 2007.

Also McLaren was also asked to modify their floors at the beginning of the season. Were they cheats then?

Someone doesn't become to have 'retroactively' cheated anytime when FIA issues additions, restrictions, clarifications to rules.

Blown diffusers was never illegal when they were introduced. It was not even bending or pushing the rules' boundary. FIA "chose" to significantly reduce its effect in the new season with bringing new exhaust position
regulations.

I don't like sore losers. They don't achieve much in life but always complain about others successes...


I don't like braggers, who manipulate a scenario to fit there own agenda and then claim dumbness when it comes to sporting clarification.

Its fine if you don't like something, but nobody cares. Your distaste for something doesn't make it illegal. Nobody would have a problem with a thread called "I don't like the way RBR exploits loopholes" other than to say that all the teams do it, its their job. I don't particularly care for Ferrari's decision today, but I would be incorrect if I made a statement or thread claiming they are cheating.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:27 pm 
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Location: San Diego, California USA
DarthVadar wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
Cheating is exactly what Renault did at Singapore 08 or what McLaren did with spygate in 2007.

Also McLaren was also asked to modify their floors at the beginning of the season. Were they cheats then?

Someone doesn't become to have 'retroactively' cheated anytime when FIA issues additions, restrictions, clarifications to rules.

Blown diffusers was never illegal when they were introduced. It was not even bending or pushing the rules' boundary. FIA "chose" to significantly reduce its effect in the new season with bringing new exhaust position
regulations.

I don't like sore losers. They don't achieve much in life but always complain about others successes...


I don't like braggers, who manipulate a scenario to fit there own agenda and then claim dumbness when it comes to sporting clarification.


You prefer outright cheating like team orders for massa to move over for Alonso and Crashgate.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:55 am
Posts: 212
ashley313 wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
DarthVadar wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
moby wrote:
You drive down a stretch of road every day at 50 mph.
one morning you get there and there is a 30 sign there............

bingo. if thats not a simple enough explanation, some folks will NEVER understand.


No how i see it is like this

You drive down a road and there is a 30 sign
however you get stopped doing 50
you argue it is a broken speedo
however still means you are going 50 in a 30.

Point proven.

When has RBR ever argued that something on their car was legal because it was defective? Or that something being defective negates the need for something to be legal? Where do you guys even get this nonsense jeeeeez.


I think Ragged was agreeing with you since the end of your previous post was highlighted.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:29 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 2075
ashley313 wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
DarthVadar wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
moby wrote:
You drive down a stretch of road every day at 50 mph.
one morning you get there and there is a 30 sign there............

bingo. if thats not a simple enough explanation, some folks will NEVER understand.


No how i see it is like this

You drive down a road and there is a 30 sign
however you get stopped doing 50
you argue it is a broken speedo
however still means you are going 50 in a 30.

Point proven.

When has RBR ever argued that something on their car was legal because it was defective? Or that something being defective negates the need for something to be legal? Where do you guys even get this nonsense jeeeeez.

Think you miss interpreted my post. I highlighted your "will never understand" line while quoting Vaders post to say that your point was proven. :D


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:31 pm 
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Posts: 107
ashley313 wrote:
DarthVadar wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
Cheating is exactly what Renault did at Singapore 08 or what McLaren did with spygate in 2007.

Also McLaren was also asked to modify their floors at the beginning of the season. Were they cheats then?

Someone doesn't become to have 'retroactively' cheated anytime when FIA issues additions, restrictions, clarifications to rules.

Blown diffusers was never illegal when they were introduced. It was not even bending or pushing the rules' boundary. FIA "chose" to significantly reduce its effect in the new season with bringing new exhaust position
regulations.

I don't like sore losers. They don't achieve much in life but always complain about others successes...


I don't like braggers, who manipulate a scenario to fit there own agenda and then claim dumbness when it comes to sporting clarification.

Its fine if you don't like something, but nobody cares. Your distaste for something doesn't make it illegal. Nobody would have a problem with a thread called "I don't like the way RBR exploits loopholes" other than to say that all the teams do it, its their job. I don't particularly care for Ferrari's decision today, but I would be incorrect if I made a statement or thread claiming they are cheating.



Ok ash I will try to get the pics and measurements I will try to get more information, but give me sometime.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 2075
DarthVadar wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
DarthVadar wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
Cheating is exactly what Renault did at Singapore 08 or what McLaren did with spygate in 2007.

Also McLaren was also asked to modify their floors at the beginning of the season. Were they cheats then?

Someone doesn't become to have 'retroactively' cheated anytime when FIA issues additions, restrictions, clarifications to rules.

Blown diffusers was never illegal when they were introduced. It was not even bending or pushing the rules' boundary. FIA "chose" to significantly reduce its effect in the new season with bringing new exhaust position
regulations.

I don't like sore losers. They don't achieve much in life but always complain about others successes...


I don't like braggers, who manipulate a scenario to fit there own agenda and then claim dumbness when it comes to sporting clarification.

Its fine if you don't like something, but nobody cares. Your distaste for something doesn't make it illegal. Nobody would have a problem with a thread called "I don't like the way RBR exploits loopholes" other than to say that all the teams do it, its their job. I don't particularly care for Ferrari's decision today, but I would be incorrect if I made a statement or thread claiming they are cheating.



Ok ash I will try to get the pics and measurements I will try to get more information, but give me sometime.

While you're at it do the same for the holes in Saubers floor at the time.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Posts: 107
Bakerking31 wrote:
DarthVadar wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
Cheating is exactly what Renault did at Singapore 08 or what McLaren did with spygate in 2007.

Also McLaren was also asked to modify their floors at the beginning of the season. Were they cheats then?

Someone doesn't become to have 'retroactively' cheated anytime when FIA issues additions, restrictions, clarifications to rules.

Blown diffusers was never illegal when they were introduced. It was not even bending or pushing the rules' boundary. FIA "chose" to significantly reduce its effect in the new season with bringing new exhaust position
regulations.

I don't like sore losers. They don't achieve much in life but always complain about others successes...


I don't like braggers, who manipulate a scenario to fit there own agenda and then claim dumbness when it comes to sporting clarification.


You prefer outright cheating like team orders for massa to move over for Alonso and Crashgate.


Did Massa Repeatedly move over ? Did piquet Crash in 6 races for Alonso to win?
Did Ferrrari or Renault win because they did the above?

That's my question?
Is this fair after all that has happened this season with the RB car this year!


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:36 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Think you miss interpreted my post. I highlighted your "will never understand" line while quoting Vaders post to say that your point was proven. :D

:thumbup: my frantic flipping back and forth between sky, twitter, and forum takes its toll

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:38 pm 
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DarthVadar wrote:
ashley313 wrote:
DarthVadar wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
Cheating is exactly what Renault did at Singapore 08 or what McLaren did with spygate in 2007.

Also McLaren was also asked to modify their floors at the beginning of the season. Were they cheats then?

Someone doesn't become to have 'retroactively' cheated anytime when FIA issues additions, restrictions, clarifications to rules.

Blown diffusers was never illegal when they were introduced. It was not even bending or pushing the rules' boundary. FIA "chose" to significantly reduce its effect in the new season with bringing new exhaust position
regulations.

I don't like sore losers. They don't achieve much in life but always complain about others successes...


I don't like braggers, who manipulate a scenario to fit there own agenda and then claim dumbness when it comes to sporting clarification.

Its fine if you don't like something, but nobody cares. Your distaste for something doesn't make it illegal. Nobody would have a problem with a thread called "I don't like the way RBR exploits loopholes" other than to say that all the teams do it, its their job. I don't particularly care for Ferrari's decision today, but I would be incorrect if I made a statement or thread claiming they are cheating.



Ok ash I will try to get the pics and measurements I will try to get more information, but give me sometime.

Methinks you shall not be able to gain access to proprietary info stored inside Adrian's head and the computer models at MK, but good luck to you.

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