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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:40 am 
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Whitmarsh said: "Team principals can decide how they run their programmes. It's very clear [Ferrari] are very focused on Fernando and, in fairness, it works for Fernando.

"It was not doing those things that meant Fernando left us [at the end of 2007] and he's a great racing driver.
"They've got to make their decisions - I'm not criticising anyone for what they do. We've got to go racing as we see as a good way to go racing.

"I think the toughest thing was that it put a number of people on to the slow side of the grid.



He essentially says, Alonso is a me first guy and that does not fly here...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:46 am 
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Hakkattack wrote:
Whitmarsh said: "Team principals can decide how they run their programmes. It's very clear [Ferrari] are very focused on Fernando and, in fairness, it works for Fernando.

"It was not doing those things that meant Fernando left us [at the end of 2007] and he's a great racing driver.
"They've got to make their decisions - I'm not criticising anyone for what they do. We've got to go racing as we see as a good way to go racing.

"I think the toughest thing was that it put a number of people on to the slow side of the grid.



He essentially says, Alonso is a me first guy and that does not fly here...


Quite agree with MW. Team orders have always existed in F1 and I'm not against Massa moving over for Alonso and sacrificing a position to him for the sake of the WDC. It used to happen even in the Schumacher days.

I just cannot stomach the fact that someone has to take a five place penalty for the benefit of one grid slot for someone. What if Alonso had a poor start today? We all know the extent Briatore went to, to please Alonso with NP Jr.. so this is quite tame in comparison.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:50 am 
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They are a good team at losing the best drivers.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:56 am 
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Hakkattack wrote:
Whitmarsh said: "Team principals can decide how they run their programmes. It's very clear [Ferrari] are very focused on Fernando and, in fairness, it works for Fernando.

"It was not doing those things that meant Fernando left us [at the end of 2007] and he's a great racing driver.
"They've got to make their decisions - I'm not criticising anyone for what they do. We've got to go racing as we see as a good way to go racing.

"I think the toughest thing was that it put a number of people on to the slow side of the grid.



He essentially says, Alonso is a me first guy and that does not fly here...


Cool story, but #1 guy in the team is the way to go, obviously. One WDC for McLaren* in the last decade? And some of these years their car was not shabby at all. Like this year for example.

* With Lewis as #1 and Heikki #2


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:32 am 
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VDV23 wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
Whitmarsh said: "Team principals can decide how they run their programmes. It's very clear [Ferrari] are very focused on Fernando and, in fairness, it works for Fernando.

"It was not doing those things that meant Fernando left us [at the end of 2007] and he's a great racing driver.
"They've got to make their decisions - I'm not criticising anyone for what they do. We've got to go racing as we see as a good way to go racing.

"I think the toughest thing was that it put a number of people on to the slow side of the grid.



He essentially says, Alonso is a me first guy and that does not fly here...


Cool story, but #1 guy in the team is the way to go, obviously. One WDC for McLaren* in the last decade? And some of these years their car was not shabby at all. Like this year for example.

* With Lewis as #1 and Heikki #2



I am not so sure Whatmarsh is saying he has a problem with #1 drivers. He has a problem w Alonso's selfishness to even have a teammate do something like this. I have watched F1 for years and have never seen something so extreme


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:38 am 
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Hakkattack wrote:
I am not so sure Whatmarsh is saying he has a problem with #1 drivers. He has a problem w Alonso's selfishness to even have a teammate do something like this. I have watched F1 for years and have never seen something so extreme

Did you miss Singapore 08? Alonso has never been kind to teammates, and from what I remember he even had Trulli thrown out of the team as early as 2004 coz he was doing better than him. All this while, it was Briatore who was literally bending over backwards for him and now Ferrari are following suit.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:57 am 
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Thing is, only one guy can win the WDC and when one driver is completely, totally and utterly out of it, and another needs all the help he can get, Ferrari's decision today was 100% logical. They didn't try to hide it, they didn't try to cover their motives, so I can respect that.

I see nothing wrong with it. Massa still had a good day and got to the absolute maximum position he could have; he would never have been allowed pass Alonso.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:58 am 
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chinki wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
I am not so sure Whatmarsh is saying he has a problem with #1 drivers. He has a problem w Alonso's selfishness to even have a teammate do something like this. I have watched F1 for years and have never seen something so extreme

Did you miss Singapore 08? Alonso has never been kind to teammates, and from what I remember he even had Trulli thrown out of the team as early as 2004 coz he was doing better than him. All this while, it was Briatore who was literally bending over backwards for him and now Ferrari are following suit.


LITERALLY BENDING OVER BACKWARDS FOR HIM!?!?!

ewwwwwwwwwwwww :thumbdown:


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:59 am 
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It rubs me the wrong way what they did, but F1 has never been a bed of roses. Fernando has been burned by the hands that feed him - remember Monza 2006? That, and also the Michael Schumacher early 2000's domination makes it easy for him to live with moments like this. Also it can be argued that Red Bull have been running an illegal car at certain points in the current and prior seasons. It's interesting the bit where Whitmarsh intimates that Alonso expected Mclaren to treat him the same way in 07'. I know it's been frequently mentioned, just interesting to finally hear it from Macca.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:22 am 
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Mw should worry about his teams inconsistent performance this year.!

He should take a leaf out of Ferraris book on how to run reliable cars and reliable put stops!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:31 am 
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MW is exactly right. What Alonso & Ferrari did today was a disgrace to the sport. If that's the kind of outfit Ferrari wants to be then let them drag themselves down, I don't know how Alonso and Domenicalli are going to sleep tonight. Alonso picked up exactly where Schumi left off but took it to a whole new level compared to Schumi. Schumi now looks like a saint when it comes to treating his teammates compared to Alonso


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:37 am 
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To be honest (and i really don't like Ferrari) i don't have too much of a problem with it, yes is was against the spirit but at least they were honest about it and didn't hide the fact, unlike some other teams.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:06 am 
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lunatic wrote:
To be honest (and i really don't like Ferrari) i don't have too much of a problem with it, yes is was against the spirit but at least they were honest about it and didn't hide the fact, unlike some other teams.


please tell me what other teams would have a teammate take a 5 grid penalty?!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:09 am 
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Hakkattack wrote:
lunatic wrote:
To be honest (and i really don't like Ferrari) i don't have too much of a problem with it, yes is was against the spirit but at least they were honest about it and didn't hide the fact, unlike some other teams.


please tell me what other teams would have a teammate take a 5 grid penalty?!
I didn't specifically say teams taking grid penaltys, i just mention the spirit of the rules.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:14 am 
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lunatic wrote:
To be honest (and i really don't like Ferrari) i don't have too much of a problem with it, yes is was against the spirit but at least they were honest about it and didn't hide the fact, unlike some other teams.


I'm sorry I've seen this line of defense used all over the place including by Alonso and Domenicalli but it just doesn't work. Ferrari weren't honest about it due to some noble reason. They did it because it was going to come out anyways and they did damage control by revealing it themselves. This kind of thing is done in political campaigns all the time.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:21 am 
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iceman_fan90 wrote:
lunatic wrote:
To be honest (and i really don't like Ferrari) i don't have too much of a problem with it, yes is was against the spirit but at least they were honest about it and didn't hide the fact, unlike some other teams.


I'm sorry I've seen this line of defense used all over the place including by Alonso and Domenicalli but it just doesn't work. Ferrari weren't honest about it due to some noble reason. They did it because it was going to come out anyways and they did damage control by revealing it themselves. This kind of thing is done in political campaigns all the time.
Do teams have to actually give a reason for changing a gearbox? i don't think they do, they just except they will get a penalty, Ferrari didn't have to say a thing but they chose to just say it as it was.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:31 am 
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lunatic wrote:
iceman_fan90 wrote:
lunatic wrote:
To be honest (and i really don't like Ferrari) i don't have too much of a problem with it, yes is was against the spirit but at least they were honest about it and didn't hide the fact, unlike some other teams.


I'm sorry I've seen this line of defense used all over the place including by Alonso and Domenicalli but it just doesn't work. Ferrari weren't honest about it due to some noble reason. They did it because it was going to come out anyways and they did damage control by revealing it themselves. This kind of thing is done in political campaigns all the time.
Do teams have to actually give a reason for changing a gearbox? i don't think they do, they just except they will get a penalty, Ferrari didn't have to say a thing but they chose to just say it as it was.


they did not change anything... therefore everyone knew what they did... they were not "being honest" or noble... they were dead on the water the minute they decided to simply break the FIA seal...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:38 am 
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Hakkattack wrote:
lunatic wrote:
iceman_fan90 wrote:
lunatic wrote:
To be honest (and i really don't like Ferrari) i don't have too much of a problem with it, yes is was against the spirit but at least they were honest about it and didn't hide the fact, unlike some other teams.


I'm sorry I've seen this line of defense used all over the place including by Alonso and Domenicalli but it just doesn't work. Ferrari weren't honest about it due to some noble reason. They did it because it was going to come out anyways and they did damage control by revealing it themselves. This kind of thing is done in political campaigns all the time.
Do teams have to actually give a reason for changing a gearbox? i don't think they do, they just except they will get a penalty, Ferrari didn't have to say a thing but they chose to just say it as it was.


they did not change anything... therefore everyone knew what they did... they were not "being honest" or noble... they were dead on the water the minute they decided to simply break the FIA seal...
They could have just changed it and gave a bullshit story but they didn't, they cracked the seal to get the penalty and said thats what they did, where is the dishonesty?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:45 am 
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Hakk for someone who has viciously defended Redbull the last couple of years saying that they are breaking no rules (even when its blatent they are pushing boundaries and going against the spirit) you sure have a bee in your bonnet about another team doing it, bit hypocritical don't you think? ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:01 am 
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Who cuts the checks to the drivers? Ferrari. Who has the most to gain or lose? Ferrari. Who will be around long after either Massa or Alonso have left the sport? Ferrari.

Ferrari made a tactical decision. The best option for Ferrari was to have Alonso as high up the order as possible. It's not about fairness, its about winning, and winning trumps all.

Does anyone really think that Massa would be all hot and bothered about taking it for Ferrari? They just resigned him to a contract...he will do what he is required to do.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:18 am 
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Mr. Martin should mind his own business, and explain why he is not fighting for the title with such a car.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:34 am 
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Let's keep this on topic please Blake.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:14 am 
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Smus wrote:
Who cuts the checks to the drivers? Ferrari. Who has the most to gain or lose? Ferrari. Who will be around long after either Massa or Alonso have left the sport? Ferrari.

Ferrari made a tactical decision. The best option for Ferrari was to have Alonso as high up the order as possible. It's not about fairness, its about winning, and winning trumps all.

Does anyone really think that Massa would be all hot and bothered about taking it for Ferrari? They just resigned him to a contract...he will do what he is required to do.


+1

What MW says is true but McLaren's stats are not in his favor. He says that McLaren would never pull this kind of thing for a driver and that is why Alonso left. Yes its true, but is that a good thing ? Ferrari's biased treatment has stood the test of time. McLaren's equal treatment policy hasn't fared nearly as well, not in terms of championships anyway. And MW actually wonders why Hamilton is leaving McLaren. If they can't take hard decisions for the sake of the team or its employees then that's their problem.

Sportsmanship ? Where is Red Bull's when they use STR to their advantage ? OK lets leave them out of it. When McLaren were asked whether the F-duct was movable aero they said it was their interpretation that it was not. Obviously many others disagreed. But why was it allowed ? Because it turned out to be legal by the wording of the regulations. It had no regard for the spirit of the rules. So just because McLaren chooses to cover themselves up on the track doesn't mean they are the "good guys".

Alonso likes to be treated better than his teammates, I find that quite normal. His contract is with Ferrari not Massa, who is another employee. In office my target is always to get promoted ahead of my colleagues, not to get equal treatment. Everyone else does the same whether or not they admit it. If the company doesn't treat me as well as I think I deserve then I'll jump ship and if they think I'm not good enough for them they'll fire me. Loyalty works both ways. Its life.

Anyway, the championship situation justified Ferrari's decision, and the results show that it was actually a good decision.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:50 am 
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Hakkattack wrote:
lunatic wrote:
iceman_fan90 wrote:
lunatic wrote:
To be honest (and i really don't like Ferrari) i don't have too much of a problem with it, yes is was against the spirit but at least they were honest about it and didn't hide the fact, unlike some other teams.


I'm sorry I've seen this line of defense used all over the place including by Alonso and Domenicalli but it just doesn't work. Ferrari weren't honest about it due to some noble reason. They did it because it was going to come out anyways and they did damage control by revealing it themselves. This kind of thing is done in political campaigns all the time.
Do teams have to actually give a reason for changing a gearbox? i don't think they do, they just except they will get a penalty, Ferrari didn't have to say a thing but they chose to just say it as it was.


they did not change anything... therefore everyone knew what they did... they were not "being honest" or noble... they were dead on the water the minute they decided to simply break the FIA seal...


Dead on the water? What do you mean? They admitted it, unlike Horner who told reporters that there was definitely no issue with fuel when Vettel's car stopped during Q3 at Abu Dhabi :?

It was a perfectly legitimate and legal tactic...just like deciding to start from the pitlane & making big changes to your car, after you get DSQ'd from qualy.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:15 am 
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callMEcrazy wrote:
Smus wrote:
Who cuts the checks to the drivers? Ferrari. Who has the most to gain or lose? Ferrari. Who will be around long after either Massa or Alonso have left the sport? Ferrari.

Ferrari made a tactical decision. The best option for Ferrari was to have Alonso as high up the order as possible. It's not about fairness, its about winning, and winning trumps all.

Does anyone really think that Massa would be all hot and bothered about taking it for Ferrari? They just resigned him to a contract...he will do what he is required to do.


+1

What MW says is true but McLaren's stats are not in his favor. He says that McLaren would never pull this kind of thing for a driver and that is why Alonso left. Yes its true, but is that a good thing ? Ferrari's biased treatment has stood the test of time. McLaren's equal treatment policy hasn't fared nearly as well, not in terms of championships anyway. And MW actually wonders why Hamilton is leaving McLaren. If they can't take hard decisions for the sake of the team or its employees then that's their problem.

Sportsmanship ? Where is Red Bull's when they use STR to their advantage ? OK lets leave them out of it. When McLaren were asked whether the F-duct was movable aero they said it was their interpretation that it was not. Obviously many others disagreed. But why was it allowed ? Because it turned out to be legal by the wording of the regulations. It had no regard for the spirit of the rules. So just because McLaren chooses to cover themselves up on the track doesn't mean they are the "good guys".

Alonso likes to be treated better than his teammates, I find that quite normal. His contract is with Ferrari not Massa, who is another employee. In office my target is always to get promoted ahead of my colleagues, not to get equal treatment. Everyone else does the same whether or not they admit it. If the company doesn't treat me as well as I think I deserve then I'll jump ship and if they think I'm not good enough for them they'll fire me. Loyalty works both ways. Its life.

Anyway, the championship situation justified Ferrari's decision, and the results show that it was actually a good decision.

Has it, though? It worked for Schumacher but he was kind of unique anyway, at least in his first incarnation. Since then it hasn't really won them much, has it?

Red Bull claim not to have a clear number one policy; Vettel is simply better than Webber. And it hasn't done them much harm in the last few years with regards to the WDC and in fact has probably helped them considerably when it comes to the WCC

McLaren lost the opportunity to challenge for this year's WDC not because of any driver equality policy but because they have have had generally shocking reliability and team errors throughout the year. If they had gotten their act together from the start then it's highly likely that we would be going into the last race with a three-way finale as a prospect. Lewis has certainly driven as well as the other two contenders and his equipment has generally been competitive all year.

I agree that the results will vindicate any decision that is made. Personally, I think Ferrari made a good decision as some of the people on the dirty side had nightmare starts. Look at Kimi, who is normally a good starter. He went backwards and spent much of the first half of the race playing catch up. Now at least Alonso still has a fighting chance for the title.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:18 am 
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Hakkattack wrote:
Whitmarsh said: "Team principals can decide how they run their programmes. It's very clear [Ferrari] are very focused on Fernando and, in fairness, it works for Fernando.

"It was not doing those things that meant Fernando left us [at the end of 2007] and he's a great racing driver.
"They've got to make their decisions - I'm not criticising anyone for what they do. We've got to go racing as we see as a good way to go racing.

"I think the toughest thing was that it put a number of people on to the slow side of the grid.



He essentially says, Alonso is a me first guy and that does not fly here...


NO: Thats what you are reading in to it not what he is actually saying.

He is simply saying Mclaren dont do things like that, he is also saying thats what Alonso wanted at Mclaren. He is saying "I'm not critising anyone for what they do".

This is the problem with people they tend to read too much in to it, at worst he may be totally not agreeing with it but thats it.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:43 am 
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Zoue wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
Smus wrote:
Who cuts the checks to the drivers? Ferrari. Who has the most to gain or lose? Ferrari. Who will be around long after either Massa or Alonso have left the sport? Ferrari.

Ferrari made a tactical decision. The best option for Ferrari was to have Alonso as high up the order as possible. It's not about fairness, its about winning, and winning trumps all.

Does anyone really think that Massa would be all hot and bothered about taking it for Ferrari? They just resigned him to a contract...he will do what he is required to do.


+1

What MW says is true but McLaren's stats are not in his favor. He says that McLaren would never pull this kind of thing for a driver and that is why Alonso left. Yes its true, but is that a good thing ? Ferrari's biased treatment has stood the test of time. McLaren's equal treatment policy hasn't fared nearly as well, not in terms of championships anyway. And MW actually wonders why Hamilton is leaving McLaren. If they can't take hard decisions for the sake of the team or its employees then that's their problem.

Sportsmanship ? Where is Red Bull's when they use STR to their advantage ? OK lets leave them out of it. When McLaren were asked whether the F-duct was movable aero they said it was their interpretation that it was not. Obviously many others disagreed. But why was it allowed ? Because it turned out to be legal by the wording of the regulations. It had no regard for the spirit of the rules. So just because McLaren chooses to cover themselves up on the track doesn't mean they are the "good guys".

Alonso likes to be treated better than his teammates, I find that quite normal. His contract is with Ferrari not Massa, who is another employee. In office my target is always to get promoted ahead of my colleagues, not to get equal treatment. Everyone else does the same whether or not they admit it. If the company doesn't treat me as well as I think I deserve then I'll jump ship and if they think I'm not good enough for them they'll fire me. Loyalty works both ways. Its life.

Anyway, the championship situation justified Ferrari's decision, and the results show that it was actually a good decision.

Has it, though? It worked for Schumacher but he was kind of unique anyway, at least in his first incarnation. Since then it hasn't really won them much, has it?

Red Bull claim not to have a clear number one policy; Vettel is simply better than Webber. And it hasn't done them much harm in the last few years with regards to the WDC and in fact has probably helped them considerably when it comes to the WCC

McLaren lost the opportunity to challenge for this year's WDC not because of any driver equality policy but because they have have had generally shocking reliability and team errors throughout the year. If they had gotten their act together from the start then it's highly likely that we would be going into the last race with a three-way finale as a prospect. Lewis has certainly driven as well as the other two contenders and his equipment has generally been competitive all year.

I agree that the results will vindicate any decision that is made. Personally, I think Ferrari made a good decision as some of the people on the dirty side had nightmare starts. Look at Kimi, who is normally a good starter. He went backwards and spent much of the first half of the race playing catch up. Now at least Alonso still has a fighting chance for the title.


It has worked all the way. It worked for Schumacher, worked for Kimi and is now working for Alonso. The only time it didn't work was when Ferrari tried equal treatment with Kimi and Massa. So they reverted back to their old system. Success is a relative term in F1. There's only so much you can influence with driver policy if your car is not up to the mark. For example, over the last 3 years McLaren have been more competitive than Ferrari in terms of the car but McLaren have never come close to winning a title. Ferrari have come very close twice and still has a chance to win a title this season. Maybe that's not all down to driver policy, but some of it is. This season they haven't come close so driver policy doesn't matter but in '10 they could definitely have given Hamilton a good chance. Red Bull can claim whatever they want. Its clear as day that Vettel is their number 1. Webber has even gone on record with it. Anyway their car is good enough and their pitstops/strategies are good enough to make such matters trivial. Right now they are in a class of their own.

Result -wise you can't really attack a biased treatment policy. It has proved too successful for too long. You'd have to bring up sportsmanship, morality and things like that.

For me, its not just the results but also the championship situation that vindicates Ferrari's decision. Even if the plan backfired I would still defend it because it makes sense to me. The clean side of the grid seemed crucial with such a dusty track. The 1 grid place was just an added advantage. Massa is out of the WDC and Ferrari out of the WCC so Alonso's WDC is rightly the sole point of concern.

Edit: I'd also like to add that McLaren has different priorities to other top teams. They prioritizes race wins over title wins. So equal treatment makes sense for them. But if you look back, when they have won titles at recent times they used a biased policy, e.g. Hamilton/Kovalainen and Hakkinen/Coulthard. So what MW says has to be taken into context.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:12 am 
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That's a 'swipe' is it?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:22 am 
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i was disgusted by ferrari tactics.. it's alonso, so what do you expect?? (ya i know people will defend him again saying he's in the the title battle).


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:01 am 
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Hakkattack wrote:
VDV23 wrote:
Hakkattack wrote:
Whitmarsh said: "Team principals can decide how they run their programmes. It's very clear [Ferrari] are very focused on Fernando and, in fairness, it works for Fernando.

"It was not doing those things that meant Fernando left us [at the end of 2007] and he's a great racing driver.
"They've got to make their decisions - I'm not criticising anyone for what they do. We've got to go racing as we see as a good way to go racing.

"I think the toughest thing was that it put a number of people on to the slow side of the grid.



He essentially says, Alonso is a me first guy and that does not fly here...


Cool story, but #1 guy in the team is the way to go, obviously. One WDC for McLaren* in the last decade? And some of these years their car was not shabby at all. Like this year for example.

* With Lewis as #1 and Heikki #2



I am not so sure Whatmarsh is saying he has a problem with #1 drivers. He has a problem w Alonso's selfishness to even have a teammate do something like this. I have watched F1 for years and have never seen something so extreme


What was done by Ferrari with Alonso vs Massa at Austin? Was it worse than what Schumacher did to his early team-mates, (ask Johnny Herbert), taking them off the track, hogging the testing, which he did to Irvine and Barrichello; what Senna did to his team-mates and rivals ,driving Prost and Mansell into the pitwall at 300kmh; Clark's Lotus team-mates getting cars that almost fell apart from lack of attention from team principal Colin Chapman; Fangio just taking the best cars during/after practice, without letting his team-mates know; Ascari disobeying team orders for all to slow and maintain position, when running third behind Farina and Hawthorn at the end of the Swiss GP; he blasted past them to win; they could not believe the ruthless treachery.; Pironi's similar treachery against Gilles Villeneveuve.

The selfishness of many of F1's number one drivers has always been there. Alonso's behaviour is certainly less brutal/blatant than Schumacher's and Senna's ever was.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:13 am 
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Bit rich coming from a Team which has always loved having a No. 1 driver over the years (Senna, Hakkinen, Hamilton).

Does anyone actually pay attention to what Whitmarsh says anyway now he has a love affair with Button as well.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:34 am 
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This is quite funny coming from Martin especially as he just had an interview with SKY and JB were Jensen said he would be leading the team next year and build the team around him and Martin laughed, patted Jensen on the back and then said Perez should be looking to learn from JB next year.


Last edited by stevey on Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:35 am 
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Same guy said McLaren could have handled Alonso better

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:47 am 
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Smus wrote:
Who cuts the checks to the drivers? Ferrari.

You will find that it is Santander money that pays the checks.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:53 am 
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.

I think people are missing the most important part of the original quote ;

Quote :

"I think the toughest thing was that it put a number of people on to the slow side of the grid.

unquote


THAT is Whitmarsh (sensibly in my opinion) criticising Ferrari for not only "helping" Alonso, but making life more difficult for all the drivers who were shifted from their "rightful" place on the racing line over to the dirty side of the starting grid. THAT is something which shows Whitmarsh has at least some sportsmanlike feeling left.

.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:59 am 
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pg55555 wrote:
.

I think people are missing the most important part of the original quote ;

Quote :

"I think the toughest thing was that it put a number of people on to the slow side of the grid.

unquote


THAT is Whitmarsh (sensibly in my opinion) criticising Ferrari for not only "helping" Alonso, but making life more difficult for all the drivers who were shifted from their "rightful" place on the racing line over to the dirty side of the starting grid. THAT is something which shows Whitmarsh has at least some sportsmanlike feeling left.

.


The flip side to that though is, RGs penalty put alot of those people on the dirty side.

So is the Gearbox grid drop unsporting in the first place?

Or say the pole winner got a ten place drop ala Schui. All that qualified on the clean side would go on the dirty side.

Say then the 2nd qualifier (Now pole) had to use their ninth engine.

Would that make the engine swap unsporting? It's all the same effect.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:15 am 
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callMEcrazy wrote:
Zoue wrote:
callMEcrazy wrote:
Smus wrote:
Who cuts the checks to the drivers? Ferrari. Who has the most to gain or lose? Ferrari. Who will be around long after either Massa or Alonso have left the sport? Ferrari.

Ferrari made a tactical decision. The best option for Ferrari was to have Alonso as high up the order as possible. It's not about fairness, its about winning, and winning trumps all.

Does anyone really think that Massa would be all hot and bothered about taking it for Ferrari? They just resigned him to a contract...he will do what he is required to do.


+1

What MW says is true but McLaren's stats are not in his favor. He says that McLaren would never pull this kind of thing for a driver and that is why Alonso left. Yes its true, but is that a good thing ? Ferrari's biased treatment has stood the test of time. McLaren's equal treatment policy hasn't fared nearly as well, not in terms of championships anyway. And MW actually wonders why Hamilton is leaving McLaren. If they can't take hard decisions for the sake of the team or its employees then that's their problem.

Sportsmanship ? Where is Red Bull's when they use STR to their advantage ? OK lets leave them out of it. When McLaren were asked whether the F-duct was movable aero they said it was their interpretation that it was not. Obviously many others disagreed. But why was it allowed ? Because it turned out to be legal by the wording of the regulations. It had no regard for the spirit of the rules. So just because McLaren chooses to cover themselves up on the track doesn't mean they are the "good guys".

Alonso likes to be treated better than his teammates, I find that quite normal. His contract is with Ferrari not Massa, who is another employee. In office my target is always to get promoted ahead of my colleagues, not to get equal treatment. Everyone else does the same whether or not they admit it. If the company doesn't treat me as well as I think I deserve then I'll jump ship and if they think I'm not good enough for them they'll fire me. Loyalty works both ways. Its life.

Anyway, the championship situation justified Ferrari's decision, and the results show that it was actually a good decision.

Has it, though? It worked for Schumacher but he was kind of unique anyway, at least in his first incarnation. Since then it hasn't really won them much, has it?

Red Bull claim not to have a clear number one policy; Vettel is simply better than Webber. And it hasn't done them much harm in the last few years with regards to the WDC and in fact has probably helped them considerably when it comes to the WCC

McLaren lost the opportunity to challenge for this year's WDC not because of any driver equality policy but because they have have had generally shocking reliability and team errors throughout the year. If they had gotten their act together from the start then it's highly likely that we would be going into the last race with a three-way finale as a prospect. Lewis has certainly driven as well as the other two contenders and his equipment has generally been competitive all year.

I agree that the results will vindicate any decision that is made. Personally, I think Ferrari made a good decision as some of the people on the dirty side had nightmare starts. Look at Kimi, who is normally a good starter. He went backwards and spent much of the first half of the race playing catch up. Now at least Alonso still has a fighting chance for the title.


It has worked all the way. It worked for Schumacher, worked for Kimi and is now working for Alonso. The only time it didn't work was when Ferrari tried equal treatment with Kimi and Massa. So they reverted back to their old system. Success is a relative term in F1. There's only so much you can influence with driver policy if your car is not up to the mark. For example, over the last 3 years McLaren have been more competitive than Ferrari in terms of the car but McLaren have never come close to winning a title. Ferrari have come very close twice and still has a chance to win a title this season. Maybe that's not all down to driver policy, but some of it is. This season they haven't come close so driver policy doesn't matter but in '10 they could definitely have given Hamilton a good chance. Red Bull can claim whatever they want. Its clear as day that Vettel is their number 1. Webber has even gone on record with it. Anyway their car is good enough and their pitstops/strategies are good enough to make such matters trivial. Right now they are in a class of their own.

Result -wise you can't really attack a biased treatment policy. It has proved too successful for too long. You'd have to bring up sportsmanship, morality and things like that.

For me, its not just the results but also the championship situation that vindicates Ferrari's decision. Even if the plan backfired I would still defend it because it makes sense to me. The clean side of the grid seemed crucial with such a dusty track. The 1 grid place was just an added advantage. Massa is out of the WDC and Ferrari out of the WCC so Alonso's WDC is rightly the sole point of concern.

Edit: I'd also like to add that McLaren has different priorities to other top teams. They prioritizes race wins over title wins. So equal treatment makes sense for them. But if you look back, when they have won titles at recent times they used a biased policy, e.g. Hamilton/Kovalainen and Hakkinen/Coulthard. So what MW says has to be taken into context.

Not sure I'd agree there. It's debatable whether Kimi was ever actually a clear number one driver. Look at USA 2007, where Felipe finished 3rd to Kimi's 4th, or Turkey 2007, where Felipe led a Ferrari 1-2. I don't feel there's any way that Ferrari would allow that to happen with the current setup. They were pretty much treated equally and that helped them win not only the WDC in 2007, and get within a hair's breadth of winning it in 2008, but also the WCC in both those years. They haven't even come close to the WCC since ad for a team like Ferrari I bet that's got to hurt.

As for Red Bull, there's no real evidence that Webber is a number 2 apart from his hissy fit at Silverstone. Even then, there were two sides to that argument as he'd originally rejected the part anyway. Other than that he's been free to race Vettel and has occasionally beaten him; he has only been made to play second fiddle in the last few races when it was clear that Vettel was the only Red Bull driver able to take the fight to Alonso. In fact, most would agree that Mark is not the type to take things lying down and if he felt that he wasn't getting a fair shake of the dice I'm pretty sure we'd hear about it.

McLaren should have won the 2007 WDC and the reason they didn't had nothing to do with their equality policy. Lewis only really needed to finish in the points for the last two races and given his form up to then you would have put money on him walking away with the title. It was silly mistakes which put paid to his title, which was very nearly repeated the following year. And I wouldn't even say that 2008 was a clear number one situation; it was simply that Lewis was much, much better than his team mate. 2008 was hardly an unqualified success for McLaren; Heikki was so poor that he pretty much cost them the WCC.

There's a difference between having a number one driver policy, where they get priority treatment with everything and the second driver has to defer to them both on and off track, to having one driver who is simply faster than his team mate. Vettel is more often than not much faster than Webber and the reason Mark is perceived as a number two is that he just can't take the fight to Seb, that's all. But the Red Bull driver policy has helped net them a hat trick of WCCs as well as at least two WDCs, and quite possibly a third this year. While it's clear at Ferrari that Hell will likely freeze over before they let Felipe challenge Alonso on track. And that has cost them dearly in the Constructor's battle.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:16 am 
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Yeah, my problem with the decision is the heavy external effect it had on the surrounding drivers and teams. Ferrari have a very we'll do what we want and to hell with everyone else attitude. They didn't consider, or considered very little the impact their decision would have on the rest of the grid and just how much it affected other drivers races. Look at Kimi Raikkonen. Compromised start due to dirty side and pushed back a number of places. We know he is a great starter so it could very much have been a different story for him. Ferrari just tiddled on everyone elses bonfire and don't seem at all fazed by it.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:19 am 
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the decision would have been made by Ferrari and not Alonso.

you think in a meeting Fernando says to Felipe - i want you to take a 5 grid penalty to suit me ?

maybe im wrong.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:21 am 
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shibbytude wrote:
Bit rich coming from a Team which has always loved having a No. 1 driver over the years (Senna, Hakkinen, Hamilton).

Does anyone actually pay attention to what Whitmarsh says anyway now he has a love affair with Button as well.


But even if you believe that, those guys established themselves as the prime driver through their own performance against the team mate. I'm quite sure that had their team mate shown signs of being as good, they would have had a dispute over ranking within the team. Masa started the year as a support driver, infact, the year Alonso signed on, and they make it clear that who ever else is there is in the same role.

The irony of is that had Masa been given free reign, it is quite probable Ferrari would be in contention for constructors championship now.

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