planetf1.com

It is currently Sat Nov 17, 2018 11:00 am

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
 Post subject: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:05 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:35 am
Posts: 842
Lately Massa has been qualifying very good and he's race pace has also been very good.
The last part of the season he seems to have been quicker than Alonso. At the beggining of the year he was nowhere near as competitive.
What is causing this dramatic change?

Is massa getting quicker?
Is alonso getting slower?

Is Massa driving a car that suits him alot better which enables him to have alot more confidence and speed?
I remember at the beggining of the year a new chassis beeing built just for him and new parts put on his car and not on Alonsos throughout the year for testing pruproses etc . Is Massa running a very different car now to Alonso or are they the same now?

Im quite confused and maybe somebody can shed some light as it looks to be multiple things and not just 1 simple answer to explain this ????

_________________
"Talented drivers adapt, the mediocre ones complain."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:10 am 
Good questions, the turnaround is quite remarkable and something has gone on. Massa has looked as strong or stronger than Alonso in 3 of the last 7 races.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:20 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:20 pm
Posts: 98
Two reasons come to mind.

First, Massa has been much faster since his contract extension was announced. Perhaps he is just able to focus more on racing. Although Massa did show a performance improvement before the contract was extended.

Second, maybe the new updates suit Felipe's driving style more than Fernando's. Also perhaps the cooler temperatures and the effect they have on the tires suit Felipe more as well.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:50 am
Posts: 76
Massa has always been a good driver, he just went through a slump and is starting to pull out of it. People seem to forget that he beat Kimi squarely over a season and was competitive against Schumacher at the end of Schumi's stint at Ferrari. I think Massa is a much better driver than a lot of people give him credit for.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:16 am 
He did beat Kimi but was never competitive against Schumacher. Schumacher really did thrash him.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:51 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:57 am
Posts: 238
lamo wrote:
He did beat Kimi but was never competitive against Schumacher. Schumacher really did thrash him.


Schumacher had the team working exclusively for him, as does Alonso. Kimi never enjoyed that advantage for whatever reason.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:57 am
Posts: 238
Peter77 wrote:
Lately Massa has been qualifying very good and he's race pace has also been very good.
The last part of the season he seems to have been quicker than Alonso. At the beggining of the year he was nowhere near as competitive.
What is causing this dramatic change?

Is massa getting quicker?
Is alonso getting slower?

Is Massa driving a car that suits him alot better which enables him to have alot more confidence and speed?
I remember at the beggining of the year a new chassis beeing built just for him and new parts put on his car and not on Alonsos throughout the year for testing pruproses etc . Is Massa running a very different car now to Alonso or are they the same now?

Im quite confused and maybe somebody can shed some light as it looks to be multiple things and not just 1 simple answer to explain this ????


I don't think it's confusing, there are just so many factors affecting a drivers performance. When the team are focusing close to 100% of their efforts on one driver it is hardly surprising that the other driver's form is going to be effected in unpredictable ways. He might be lucky and get a car that suits him, or he might be unlucky and be given something totally unsuited to his driving style, and so there are likely to be ups and downs throughout the season as different upgrades are deployed. Massa is a solid driver and if he was at a normal team getting 50% or so of the teams respect and attention, then you would not be seeing these wild swings in his form. It's no coincidence that when these weird, inexplicable dips in form happen to a driver, it's more often than not at Ferrari.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 4:35 am
Posts: 842
Ferrari basically kicked out schumacher to bring on Raikonen as the next messiah on a huge 50 million a year contract. Why in the world wouldn't he have the same number 1 status as schumacher did the year before when clearly his salary compared to Massa's showed he was the number 1 driver.
Maybe Raikonen is a very fast driver but nowhere near as good as schumacher was.

_________________
"Talented drivers adapt, the mediocre ones complain."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:12 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:57 am
Posts: 238
Peter77 wrote:
Ferrari basically kicked out schumacher to bring on Raikonen as the next messiah on a huge 50 million a year contract. Why in the world wouldn't he have the same number 1 status as schumacher did the year before when clearly his salary compared to Massa's showed he was the number 1 driver.
Maybe Raikonen is a very fast driver but nowhere near as good as schumacher was.


Excellent question. Remember that it took Schumacher a few seasons to mold the team around him and win a world title. Kimi came in and won a world title and helped them win the constructors title in his first season. Half a season later, with him as the current world champion and in joint first place in the drivers standings, Ferrari were already talking to Santander and Alonso. Would Kimi ever have molded the team around him like Schumacher and Alonso did, even if Santander/Alonso hadn't happened? Possibly not, he is a very different character and maybe unsuited to the way Ferrari is run.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:17 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 12:00 am
Posts: 274
Fernando trouncing him for most of the season has really lowered his stock, but people forget, he's Felipe Massa. The dude who came second in the closet WDC in history, he's no slow poke.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:18 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:36 am
Posts: 23
az1 wrote:
Peter77 wrote:
Ferrari basically kicked out schumacher to bring on Raikonen as the next messiah on a huge 50 million a year contract. Why in the world wouldn't he have the same number 1 status as schumacher did the year before when clearly his salary compared to Massa's showed he was the number 1 driver.
Maybe Raikonen is a very fast driver but nowhere near as good as schumacher was.


Excellent question. Remember that it took Schumacher a few seasons to mold the team around him and win a world title. Kimi came in and won a world title and helped them win the constructors title in his first season. Half a season later, with him as the current world champion and in joint first place in the drivers standings, Ferrari were already talking to Santander and Alonso. Would Kimi ever have molded the team around him like Schumacher and Alonso did, even if Santander/Alonso hadn't happened? Possibly not, he is a very different character and maybe unsuited to the way Ferrari is run.


Spot on.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:30 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:57 am
Posts: 238
swillis wrote:
Fernando trouncing him for most of the season has really lowered his stock, but people forget, he's Felipe Massa. The dude who came second in the closet WDC in history, he's no slow poke.


It's impossible to know how significant the "trouncing" was because it wasn't a level playing field. I don't think there's a driver on the grid that wouldn't beat his teammate over a season given the exclusive attention of the team. But of course, the average fan only sees the results and draws simplistic conclusions. I think the F1 media play along because an honest discussion about how it works at Ferrari wouldn't do the image of the sport much good and so isn't good business for anyone involved.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:41 am 
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:16 am
Posts: 1006
Massa has got his mojo back. His drive in Austin was incredible. The last 6/7 races he has been slowly gaining momentum. The two years before that he had lost himself. Now he seems to believe once again that he is a top class driver. I think most of it is confidence. But its also possible that the current Ferrari car suits him nicely. I actually hope that is not the case because that would mean his form might go away again in the future. He is a delight when he is on form. Its like suddenly we are gifted one more top driver on the grid.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:57 am
Posts: 238
callMEcrazy wrote:
Massa has got his mojo back. His drive in Austin was incredible. The last 6/7 races he has been slowly gaining momentum. The two years before that he had lost himself. Now he seems to believe once again that he is a top class driver. I think most of it is confidence. But its also possible that the current Ferrari car suits him nicely. I actually hope that is not the case because that would mean his form might go away again in the future. He is a delight when he is on form. Its like suddenly we are gifted one more top driver on the grid.


I guess confidence could be a factor but I just can't believe that such wild and abrupt changes in form are all down to a drivers psychology. These guys are professionals and the best in the world at what they do. It reminds me of how Kimi suddenly "got his mojo back" after Felipe's accident in 2009. If you ask me, the common factor here is the weird and wonderful world inside Ferrari and I think Massa would never have had this dip in form if he had been getting the usual support that a team gives a driver. I guess it could be that being number 2 at Ferrari is too much of a psychological burden for anyone!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 9348
The car just happens to suit his driving style once again. I'm sure they'll get that "fixed" by the start of next season though...

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:59 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:57 am
Posts: 238
Covalent wrote:
The car just happens to suit his driving style once again. I'm sure they'll get that "fixed" by the start of next season though...


I think this is far closer to the truth than the "he suddenly got his mojo back" theory.

It will indeed be interesting to see what happens next season. Maybe after 3 seasons without any titles, Ferrari might begin paying a bit more attention to the second driver? I doubt it though.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:37 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 04, 2003 6:38 pm
Posts: 219
Location: Madrid
How short memory is...

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2012 Championship finish: 6th place
2013 Championship finish: 48th
2014 Championship finish: 39th
2015 Championship finish: 28th


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:16 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:29 pm
Posts: 5712
Location: u.k
Massa's confidence levels have probably increased massively with the news that Perez is off to McLaren, and he could retain his seat. Remember, for a large part of the year, there was speculation from everyone over who would replace him, so I'm sure positive contract news would boost him massively.

Then there's the car, it's not as bad as it was in the first part of the year, and I think this is playing into Massa's hands in that he can now get closer to Alonso in races. His problem wasn't qualifying as much. he was always around 2-3 tenths off Alonso in quali, and he was still about that, but the problem was this year, 2-3 tenths, is 4-5 places, whereas last year, it was 1 place max. So it made him look much worse.

_________________
Winter is Coming


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:29 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:52 am
Posts: 1654
It is a mystery to me as to how Massa has suddenly found the pace and was even quicker than Alonso in the last race as well as Korea if I remember correctly. I dont buy the Alonso is cracking under pressure argument coz top sportsmen usually excel as the going gets tougher. At this point my bet is more on the development path the Ferrari has taken and for some reason it is working for Massa more than it is for Alonso, but then again it is weird coz you would think that Ferrrari would know what upgrades to bring that suit Fred better. Anyway, still a mystery as far as I am concerned or were these couple of races just a blip on the radar?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:31 am
Posts: 66
Since Belgium Massa's form has been steadly becoming more consistent and with that his pace is also comming up. I also think that Alonso's form is maybe starting to dip now as well, he's been fighting so hard for so long this season and with the rubish upgrades he has been getting that maybe he is a bit demorolised inside and that can take some speed out of you, same way it probably took the speed out of Massa in the begining of the year.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:37 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 9898
Location: Travelling around the world
I could be wrong but I get the feeling that Ferrari are still bringing disreputable updates. They bolt the new updates to Fernando's car and cross their fingers. The older spec Ferrari (i.e. the one Massa is driving) has appeared to be quicker on many race weekends lately.

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 1043
Location: Ohio
Alonso is getting killed by Massa when it maters most. It is not like they are even close, as Massa is beating him in qualy by a ton and being asked to slow in races when too close to Alonso


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 08, 2012 3:03 pm
Posts: 55
I'm sad for Alonso but happy for Massa at the same time..


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:21 pm
Posts: 948
Location: California
Alonso strong point was never one lap speed but he is a terrific racer. That is probably why he lost to Trulli and Hamilton....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:00 pm
Posts: 2986
Whatever it is i hope he can start with it next year. for his own sake.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:54 pm
Posts: 31
For 3 races now Alonso has used a different frontwing compared to Massa who's still using the older spec one. It was pretty obvious from the last race (compare Massa's qualy and racepace) that it didn't make the car better. They're still using it just all the same this weekend with the same results. Judging from Alonso's face it's not a wet set-up either. They have just made is car slower and fail to see that for the 3"th time in a row now.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:24 pm
Posts: 121
Covalent wrote:
The car just happens to suit his driving style once again. I'm sure they'll get that "fixed" by the start of next season though...

:thumbup: :D

_________________
KIMI : THE ICEMAN


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:42 pm
Posts: 29
PacificBeach wrote:
Alonso strong point was never one lap speed but he is a terrific racer. That is probably why he lost to Trulli and Hamilton....


This.
Alonso is an OK qualifier but nothing special, Massa's strength is qualifying. If the car feels good for him, he seems very fast, especially in Brazil.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 10:55 am
Posts: 214
rain wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
Alonso strong point was never one lap speed but he is a terrific racer. That is probably why he lost to Trulli and Hamilton....


This.
Alonso is an OK qualifier but nothing special, Massa's strength is qualifying. If the car feels good for him, he seems very fast, especially in Brazil.


Massa was faster in the race last weekend too.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2009 2:52 am
Posts: 1654
JerCotter7 wrote:
rain wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
Alonso strong point was never one lap speed but he is a terrific racer. That is probably why he lost to Trulli and Hamilton....


This.
Alonso is an OK qualifier but nothing special, Massa's strength is qualifying. If the car feels good for him, he seems very fast, especially in Brazil.


Massa was faster in the race last weekend too.

And he showed signs of being faster during the race in Korea too. Is it Alonso going downhill or Massa going uphill?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 02, 2012 6:00 pm
Posts: 605
Alonso was probably running Wet race setups

Massa was running/testing new parts in Korea, which seems to work. Alonso didnt risk trying the new parts.

_________________
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:42 pm
Posts: 29
JerCotter7 wrote:
rain wrote:
PacificBeach wrote:
Alonso strong point was never one lap speed but he is a terrific racer. That is probably why he lost to Trulli and Hamilton....


This.
Alonso is an OK qualifier but nothing special, Massa's strength is qualifying. If the car feels good for him, he seems very fast, especially in Brazil.


Massa was faster in the race last weekend too.


Hard to judge as Alonso was a bit in a race of his own. Massa's performance is just very variable, always has been as far as I know.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:20 pm
Posts: 1804
Crazylemon2 wrote:
Since Belgium Massa's form has been steadly becoming more consistent and with that his pace is also comming up. I also think that Alonso's form is maybe starting to dip now as well, he's been fighting so hard for so long this season and with the rubish upgrades he has been getting that maybe he is a bit demorolised inside and that can take some speed out of you, same way it probably took the speed out of Massa in the begining of the year.


Since Belgium:

3rd-3rd-DNF-3rd-2nd-2nd-3rd

*inaudible* all wrong with Alonso's form.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:35 pm 
mcdo wrote:
I could be wrong but I get the feeling that Ferrari are still bringing disreputable updates. They bolt the new updates to Fernando's car and cross their fingers. The older spec Ferrari (i.e. the one Massa is driving) has appeared to be quicker on many race weekends lately.


There are not blind Neanderthals, they won't run slower parts. If the newer parts are not faster in practice they won't make it onto Alonso race car. We know what lengths they will go to ensure Alonso gets the best opportunity.


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 6:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:56 pm
Posts: 291
I can't figure it out at all! Massa looked so bad earlier this year I stopped posting completely - but glad something's working for him. I think it's mental. He is pretty emotional. He was trying too hard and screwing up on a regular basis. He said he finally decided to relax and just go for it no matter what the outcome. It's like one of those Hollywood moments when the hero draws a deep breath, looks his worst fear in the face, and delivers on cue. :D :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:12 pm
Posts: 973
If Massa do achieve podium tomorrow, he will get the praises he had 4 years ago, and i have hope that he will make Alonso's life much harder next year.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 2:39 pm
Posts: 1159
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Massa getting more support and Alonso not the samurai-rainman he so wishes to be

_________________
..

Minds are like parachutes, they work best when they are open


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 7:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:20 pm
Posts: 1804
Ja'a wrote:
If Massa do achieve podium tomorrow, he will get the praises he had 4 years ago, and i have hope that he will make Alonso's life much harder next year.


I hope he does as well. Because Massa driving like a backmarker in the early part of the season has cost Ferrari a shot at the WCC.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 8:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 10, 2009 12:35 pm
Posts: 1081
Massa just had been doing 'Italian strike' for Germany 2010 and not scoring enough points for team. There was risk to lose the seat but he got his contract for one year and now wants to show real speed to get better contract in 2014. He will be fighting for WDC in 2013 and lose it in last turn and will be claimed as the quickest Ferrari driver. Ever.

you didn't really believe me, did you? your bad, all written is true :)

_________________
We are worse than animals, we hunger for the kill
We put our faith in maniacs the triumph of the will
We kill for money, wealth and lust, for this we should be damned
We are disease upon the world, brotherhood of man


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Alonso VS Massa
PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 9:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:17 pm
Posts: 454
Massa is faster than Alonso on raw pace, he can naturally qualify 2-3 tenths ahead of Alonso but he is an emotional bloke, Alonso and Ferrari have been manipulating him, but near the second half of the season when Vettel started gaining on Alonso, they decided to stop messing with Massa's mind in hope that he will provide Alonso help, however as soon as he was allowed to do his thing, he started outqualifying and outracing Alonso. Remember this is the same driver that was reasonably competitive against Schumi, he beat Raikkonen, he almost beat Hamilton, who in turn beat Alonso in the same car.

_________________
Sebastian Vettel: "I don't praise myself". I am not Fernando Alonso.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group