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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:39 am 
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Ferrari showed today the depths they are willing to stoop to to get Alonso to win. I am honestly worried for Vettel in Brazil. If the oppertunity presents I think Ferrari will make Massa crash into Vettel to get Alonso to win. Can FIA strip Alonso of the world title if it seems that Massa deliberately crashed into Vettel? I hope Red Bull has some sort of plan to always have one car between him and Massa.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:42 am 
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If we see Flavio around Sao Paulo that is when RBR should start worrying...


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:42 am 
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I don't think Massa is the sort of person who would even consider doing that.

Further, he was essentially robbed of his 2008 WDC by Crashgate in Singapore.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:45 am 
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Surely that would warrant the FIA throwing Ferrari and their two drivers out of the championships?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:09 am 
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YES....

OF course Ferrari will make Massa crash into Vettel at Brazil. However, I suspect that they will employ a highly thoughout detailed execution that will involve Massa, that dastardly, heartless soul taking out Vettel, Webber, Kimi, Lewis, and Button in one clever move... while MASSA survives the accident himself, races to a huge multi-lap lead over Alonso and the rest of the drivers so that he can stop just before the finish and lay out a red carpet for Alonso to drive over for the WDC.

Any other ridiculous questions you would like to ask?
:nod:

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:23 am 
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While I do not believe Ferrari would instruct Massa to take out Vettel, I would fully expect that, if the opportunity arose, that Ferrari could ensure that Vettel who have 1 hell of a fight on his hands if he had to negotiate his way past. If I were Ferrari, I would somehow try to place Vettel behind Massa and expect Massa to fight fair but very, very hard and let the cards fall as they may. Maybe try to force Vettel into a mistake trying to get past then who knows what the outcome might be.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:40 am 
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kai_ wrote:
I don't think Massa is the sort of person who would even consider doing that.

Further, he was essentially robbed of his 2008 WDC by Crashgate in Singapore.


Holy mother of bitterness. Really? This again? Get over it. It's a past season, Phil lost. It's funny how people remember this stuff but they forget how he ran in to Hamilton (Fuji I think) after cutting across the track and making a bee line straight for him. Hamilton not only was spun but I believe his tire was cut Down. How many points did he lose that day DIRECTLY do to massa?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:50 am 
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iceman_fan90 wrote:
Ferrari showed today the depths they are willing to stoop to to get Alonso to win. I am honestly worried for Vettel in Brazil. If the oppertunity presents I think Ferrari will make Massa crash into Vettel to get Alonso to win. Can FIA strip Alonso of the world title if it seems that Massa deliberately crashed into Vettel? I hope Red Bull has some sort of plan to always have one car between him and Massa.


Red Bull has more cars to crash into/impede and at recent times they have "stooped lower" than any other team, if there's such a thing. The FIA can and will strip Alonso/Ferrari if Massa does something like that and they will do the same for Vettel/Red Bull.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:51 am 
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I know the resemblance is uncanny, but Alonso isn't actually Dick Dastardly...


Ferrari and Alonso are unsporting in their attitudes, but they have yet to show that they would actually endanger lives. As much as I dislike them, I would never expect them to stoop to Briatore levels. What a way to ruin the legacy of the oldest team in the sport that would be.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:53 am 
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Definitely not. What kind of thread is this?
If Ferrari wanted to take Vettel out, they would have just started in their original position and told Massa to be a rocket and take out front runners.
That will never happen. One on one contact on purpose is a stupid thing to do. Too many risks to themselves and other people. Massa specially will never do that even if Ferrari ordered something like that. He has himself lived through ordeal of serious injury.
This is not 80s or 90s anymore.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:08 am 
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daytona81 wrote:
kai_ wrote:
I don't think Massa is the sort of person who would even consider doing that.

Further, he was essentially robbed of his 2008 WDC by Crashgate in Singapore.


Holy mother of bitterness. Really? This again? Get over it. It's a past season, Phil lost. It's funny how people remember this stuff but they forget how he ran in to Hamilton (Fuji I think) after cutting across the track and making a bee line straight for him. Hamilton not only was spun but I believe his tire was cut Down. How many points did he lose that day DIRECTLY do to massa?


You have massively misunderstood the point I was making there, which may be my fault because I didn't bother to elaborate, but then again I didn't think I'd need to. To elaborate now: Massa is the one and only driver on the grid who would know what it feels like to have another driver deliberately crash for the purpose of fixing a result, which overall did in fact cost him a world championship. He spoke out himself after the details of Crashgate came out saying he felt that the results of that race should have been disregarded. Of all the drivers on the grid who would do something like crash into a driver to secure a WDC win for another driver - the same driver, no less, who benefited that day - I think Massa is the least likely.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:16 am 
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There's no way Massa would crash. The best scenario I can think of is either Massa or Alonso refusing to yield in a dogfight with Vettel, resulting in a crash. Ferrari's best hope in Brazil is to lock out the front row in quali and hope Mclaren takes the 2nd row. At the moment, this seems impossible so their final hope is divine intervention from the weather gods.

imo, the critical point was in Abu Dhabi where Alonso took only 3 points off Vettel despite the latter starting at the back. It should have been much more but overall, the fastest driver with the fastest car deserves the win. Sadly, that isn't Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:33 am 
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kai_ wrote:
daytona81 wrote:
kai_ wrote:
I don't think Massa is the sort of person who would even consider doing that.

Further, he was essentially robbed of his 2008 WDC by Crashgate in Singapore.


Holy mother of bitterness. Really? This again? Get over it. It's a past season, Phil lost. It's funny how people remember this stuff but they forget how he ran in to Hamilton (Fuji I think) after cutting across the track and making a bee line straight for him. Hamilton not only was spun but I believe his tire was cut Down. How many points did he lose that day DIRECTLY do to massa?


You have massively misunderstood the point I was making there, which may be my fault because I didn't bother to elaborate, but then again I didn't think I'd need to. To elaborate now: Massa is the one and only driver on the grid who would know what it feels like to have another driver deliberately crash for the purpose of fixing a result, which overall did in fact cost him a world championship. He spoke out himself after the details of Crashgate came out saying he felt that the results of that race should have been disregarded. Of all the drivers on the grid who would do something like crash into a driver to secure a WDC win for another driver - the same driver, no less, who benefited that day - I think Massa is the least likely.

But it didn't cost him the world championship. His stupidity to drive off with the fuel line still attached cost him. Who's too say he wouldn't of done that during his routine stop.

This subject has been done to death


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:37 am 
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spooky wrote:
kai_ wrote:
daytona81 wrote:
kai_ wrote:
I don't think Massa is the sort of person who would even consider doing that.

Further, he was essentially robbed of his 2008 WDC by Crashgate in Singapore.


Holy mother of bitterness. Really? This again? Get over it. It's a past season, Phil lost. It's funny how people remember this stuff but they forget how he ran in to Hamilton (Fuji I think) after cutting across the track and making a bee line straight for him. Hamilton not only was spun but I believe his tire was cut Down. How many points did he lose that day DIRECTLY do to massa?


You have massively misunderstood the point I was making there, which may be my fault because I didn't bother to elaborate, but then again I didn't think I'd need to. To elaborate now: Massa is the one and only driver on the grid who would know what it feels like to have another driver deliberately crash for the purpose of fixing a result, which overall did in fact cost him a world championship. He spoke out himself after the details of Crashgate came out saying he felt that the results of that race should have been disregarded. Of all the drivers on the grid who would do something like crash into a driver to secure a WDC win for another driver - the same driver, no less, who benefited that day - I think Massa is the least likely.

But it didn't cost him the world championship. His stupidity to drive off with the fuel line still attached cost him. Who's too say he wouldn't of done that during his routine stop.

This subject has been done to death


Good grief. I'm not opening up the issue of the WDC in 2008; I'm making a point about Massa's empathy for a driver who lost a WDC due to one driver crashing for the benefit of another.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:43 am 
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No driver will ever risk his life or health for someone else's championship under any circumstances. A crash in Formula 1 is not like in a video game, and the drivers know this - look at how angrily Hamilton reacted to Grosjean in Spa after the start of race crash there.

Ferrari would never consider this as a strategy under any circumstances. Piquet's incident in Singapore was condemned throughout the sport and no one was directly put in danger by the crash itself (it increased the risk of the circuit by putting marshals on the track, but the incident itself was a controlled collision with a barrier, not an unpredictable collision with another car)

If a team instructed a driver (either directly or implicitly) they would not only receive sanctions from the sport, but criminal charges as well. It could be seen as attempted manslaugther, certainly an attempt to cause harm.

Ferrari would not ask or expect Massa to do this. Massa would never do it either. You can deliberately crash with a barrier under controlled conditions, you cannot deliberately crash with another car under controlled conditions. Schumacher tried it twice and only had a 50% success rate.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:56 am 
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Massa could influence the race in any number of ways - stop the car neatly in the middle of Turns 2/3/4 after when the time arrives. Or at the end of the pitlane when Vettel is pulling in.
Today FIA allowed Ferrari to influence a qualy/ race result, compromised the race of drivers who had worked hard for their qualy spots , brought F1 into disrepute in the eyes of many.
I guess if prostitution was legal - Fernando, Massa, Domenicali and Montezemolo would just sell their mothers down the street. Unbelievable.
Why have other teams not summarily protested?
Seriously, someting embarrassing could be awaiting us in Brazil.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:59 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
No driver will ever risk his life or health for someone else's championship under any circumstances.


not the case in singapore 2008 though


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:00 am 
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Asinine...

Bringing the sport into disrepute???

prostitution???

Oh, those evil bastards we know as Ferrari.... come now, some of you need to THINK.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:08 am 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
No driver will ever risk his life or health for someone else's championship under any circumstances.


not the case in singapore 2008 though

One on one contact is very dangerous and unpredictable. Its one thing to put the car in wall, entirely another thing to crash into someone else on purpose. We have seen how easy these cars can go in air and over the cockpit. No driver will risk that today.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:10 am 
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No, and no one should be.

I don't know what your personal stance on Ferrari is, but they haven't reached the level, of making a plan, to take out a competitor before the race.

After, crashgate, I can assure you the fallout would be huge, and Ferrari would loose everything they earned and then some. They won't get away with it.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:21 am 
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No because I don't think Massa will be able to get anywhere near Vettel!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:28 am 
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The stewards have already made it v clear that taking out WDC contenders will result in harsh penalties (race earlier this season).

So no, whilst I can see that Massa will fight v hard to stop Seb overtaking him (if he finds himself in that position), I doubt he would deliberately crash into Seb.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:32 am 
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Blake wrote:
Asinine...

Bringing the sport into disrepute???

prostitution???

Oh, those evil bastards we know as Ferrari.... come now, some of you need to THINK.


Blake, MY point is that SOME people come to enjoy the sport, not just to see their team win. Some fans don't care how their team wins, some do. I personally do not like a team that fouls as part of a strategy to win. Rules are meant to ensure fairness, and what Ferrari did was not fair (IMHO). Some people feel the Hack a Shaq tactic in basketball is fine since it is within the rules, others find it distasteful. Diego Maradona and Pele were repeatedly fouled by brutal defenders, but their teams got a free kick every time. Does not mean it makes the game enjoyable for everyone.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:37 am 
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Not really. He almost died once, doesn't need to do it again.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:28 am 
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crankshaft_turn wrote:
Massa could influence the race in any number of ways - stop the car neatly in the middle of Turns 2/3/4 after when the time arrives. Or at the end of the pitlane when Vettel is pulling in.
Today FIA allowed Ferrari to influence a qualy/ race result, compromised the race of drivers who had worked hard for their qualy spots , brought F1 into disrepute in the eyes of many.
I guess if prostitution was legal - Fernando, Massa, Domenicali and Montezemolo would just sell their mothers down the street. Unbelievable.
Why have other teams not summarily protested?
Seriously, someting embarrassing could be awaiting us in Brazil.


How is it a compromise if five drivers moved up a position? Or as they were doing their faster lap they were thinking "how fast should I go to nail eighth without someone else taking it from me?

go home silly comments. you're drunk

EDIT: On TOpic... No, I don't think that massa would crush but I am expecting something that might come into scrutiny. Anything from racing Vettel hard because of a late pit stop and stuff like this

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:33 am 
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Yes, just as much as of Webber crashing Alonso in BRazil... x(

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:47 am 
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Massa crashing Vettel in Brazil?

It is possible.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:48 am 
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Jezza13 wrote:
While I do not believe Ferrari would instruct Massa to take out Vettel, I would fully expect that, if the opportunity arose, that Ferrari could ensure that Vettel who have 1 hell of a fight on his hands if he had to negotiate his way past. If I were Ferrari, I would somehow try to place Vettel behind Massa and expect Massa to fight fair but very, very hard and let the cards fall as they may. Maybe try to force Vettel into a mistake trying to get past then who knows what the outcome might be.


If I were Ferrari.. I'd first think of a way to have Alonso ahead of Vettel, let alone Massa. Ferrari and Alonso have been wasting one third of the season planning dumb mind games rather than improving their kit and earning a win.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:01 am 
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Kushal Msc-3 wrote:
Jezza13 wrote:
While I do not believe Ferrari would instruct Massa to take out Vettel, I would fully expect that, if the opportunity arose, that Ferrari could ensure that Vettel who have 1 hell of a fight on his hands if he had to negotiate his way past. If I were Ferrari, I would somehow try to place Vettel behind Massa and expect Massa to fight fair but very, very hard and let the cards fall as they may. Maybe try to force Vettel into a mistake trying to get past then who knows what the outcome might be.


If I were Ferrari.. I'd first think of a way to have Alonso ahead of Vettel, let alone Massa. Ferrari and Alonso have been wasting one third of the season planning dumb mind games rather than improving their kit and earning a win.

Not at all (IMO). Ferrari have been improving over the season and have had a good car for the latter half of the season.

If Massa had been allowed to qualify in his original position, I think he would have been far closer to McLaren and RBR than Alonso's drive implied.

But admittedly, that's just conjecture.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:26 am 
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Although Massa has a good record around his home circuit, I think that the Red Bull will so much more superior than the Ferrari that Massa won't even be close enough to do anything. The only instance where they could be with each other on track would be perhaps during the pit stop phase.

Anyways, it's not in Massa's nature to do that, and I think even Ferrari would think twice before considering it (the consequences from the FIA, condemned by fans, etc).

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:29 am 
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I dont think he will crash into him, but I do think he will become a human road block when being lapped by him - regardless of blue flags and the punishment he gets.

even though the grid swap this weekend can be seen as honorable by some, it could be the start of something really bad in how felipe is used in the future.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:31 am 
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No.

He won't get close enough anyway.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:33 am 
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I'm not worried at all about them doing it intentionally.

If there was even a hint, the slightest hint of it, the FiA would be on it, all over it, and inside it. If Ferrari get found out, which they probably would, the PR damage is far, far worse than the PR gain for winning a WDC.

Besides, Massa wouldn't do it. He's a lot of things, but he is not a cheat. I don't think Ferrari or Alonso would want to win that way either. Plus, don't see him doing that in Brazil. And his life and another guys life would be at risk. If you purposely take someone off and they get injured or killed, surely you are liable in criminal court for that?


Even if Massa and Vettel accidentally tangle, it will probably bitter the 2012 WDC and for years we'll have to deal with conspiracy and the like. Just like how Glock purposely slowed for Hamilton in 2008! :-P


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:35 am 
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No. The FIA has made it very clear in the past that purposefully crashing into a title competitor in a title decider warrants a serious penalty. Massa and/or Ferrari would probably get a very long ban and a big fine + disqualification from final points standings costing further millions of dollars.

Then FIA President Max Mosley even said some years ago that under modern rules Schumacher would have lost his '94 title and remember was ahead of Hill in points (92 to 91).

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:47 am 
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Lotus38 wrote:
Yes, just as much as of Webber crashing Alonso in BRazil... x(

So zero then?

As others have said, they'd have to be extremely careful if they did, if intent was shown I'd suspect Massa, Alonso and Ferrari would be kicked out this year, maybe suffer penalties next year.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:58 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
No driver will ever risk his life or health for someone else's championship under any circumstances. A crash in Formula 1 is not like in a video game, and the drivers know this - look at how angrily Hamilton reacted to Grosjean in Spa after the start of race crash there.

Ferrari would never consider this as a strategy under any circumstances. Piquet's incident in Singapore was condemned throughout the sport and no one was directly put in danger by the crash itself (it increased the risk of the circuit by putting marshals on the track, but the incident itself was a controlled collision with a barrier, not an unpredictable collision with another car)

If a team instructed a driver (either directly or implicitly) they would not only receive sanctions from the sport, but criminal charges as well. It could be seen as attempted manslaugther, certainly an attempt to cause harm.

Ferrari would not ask or expect Massa to do this. Massa would never do it either. You can deliberately crash with a barrier under controlled conditions, you cannot deliberately crash with another car under controlled conditions. Schumacher tried it twice and only had a 50% success rate.

if its a low speed corner the risk of serious injury would be minimal, so yes you actually can (see Maldonado)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:11 am 
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Well here's my silly thoughts regarding the situation.

1. Massa takes out Webber turn 1
2. Webber seeks revenge and takes out Alonso
3. Hamilton wins the race and overtakes Kimi in the standings
4. Ferrari and Redbull are disqualified from both championships for unsportman like conduct
5. Hamilton WDC, Mclaren WCC
6. Caterham score their first point..


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:13 am 
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irietuning wrote:
6. Caterham score their first point..

And Marussia score 2

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:14 am 
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it would never happen.

never.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:16 am 
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if this happened, and it was delibrate from Massa and Ferrari, then Alonso would have this tainted title hanging over him forever.
Massa would never be taken seriously as a racer again.

it would destroy two drivers careers, and a team and company would be forever seen as cheats.


above some of the reasons it wouldnt happen.


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