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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:30 pm 
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Bakerking31 wrote:
I agree they didnt break the gearbox replacement rules ... My contention is not that (i know you are referring to w1Y!). But doing so does put a black eye on the sport. Manipulating the grid position by having a #2 driver take a penalty is not good for the sport, it makes it look like a joke. That is why I contend it broke 151c

I understand what you are saying, but that's a very rocky road. At the moment no-one has to declare why they break a seal; they just do it. If you start charging people then you'd have to change the rules to make a team declare, and be able to prove, why they needed to change a gearbox.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:39 pm 
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Ffs I have never said they broke rules or cheated. Do you actually read what I type.

I am arguing the case that the fact they never broke rules and the question on whether it was unsporting are two completely different things.

Are you just gonna keep ignoring this with "but they never broke any rules"

People are allowed to not like what they did.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 11:59 pm 
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Quote:
Unless the driver fails to finish the race (or is unable to start the race for reasons other
than a penalty imposed by the stewards) the gearbox fitted to the car at the end of the
Event must remain in it for the remainder of the five race sequence.


Where was the outcry when Vettel retired in Malaysia or Webber retired at Monza?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:02 am 
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Psychotext wrote:
Webber is more likely to want to take out Vettel than Alonso. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:17 am 
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Bakerking31 wrote:
So your saying that people artificially adjust the grid order by having teammates take penalties every weekend? Because that is what happened, its not as simple as you are making it out to be, its not just a seal breaking, its the reasoning behind it and the intentional consequences of it.
Your whole argument is based off the premise that using a gearbox penalty to aid a teammate by artificially changing the grid order is the same as someone with a legitimate problem with their gearbox and changing it. They are 2 completely different things, if we cant agree at least on that much there is no point in going on with this.
The other teams didnt protest it because they dont want to get in the middle of a championship fight. Red Bull are taking the high road and keeping their nose clean but you can bet if it was Webber who took the penalty to move Seb up Ferrari would likely have launched an official protest. (but thats all speculation and has nothing to do with the matter at hand)

You hit the nail on the head, that's it 100%
Also,
w1Y! wrote:
Ffs I have never said they broke rules or cheated. Do you actually read what I type.
I am arguing the case that the fact they never broke rules and the question on whether it was unsporting are two completely different things.
Are you just gonna keep ignoring this with "but they never broke any rules"
People are allowed to not like what they did.

Thank you guys!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:28 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Bakerking31 wrote:
I agree they didnt break the gearbox replacement rules ... My contention is not that (i know you are referring to w1Y!). But doing so does put a black eye on the sport. Manipulating the grid position by having a #2 driver take a penalty is not good for the sport, it makes it look like a joke. That is why I contend it broke 151c

I understand what you are saying, but that's a very rocky road. At the moment no-one has to declare why they break a seal; they just do it. If you start charging people then you'd have to change the rules to make a team declare, and be able to prove, why they needed to change a gearbox.


3 quick points

First, I dont think this will come up again, its a highly unusual situation that is not normal.

Second, you dont need to change the rules, 151c is already a rule which IMO was violated by Ferrari by messing with the grid order by use of intentional penalties. If Ferrari didn't outright come out and say they are taking the penalty to move Alonso up than I dont think this would be an issue.

Third, we already have Force Majure (or however you spell it) where you have to prove damage in qualy if you dont return to the pits ... While I dont think we need to change the gearbox rules (see point 2) if they did change them it wouldnt be difficult, it would simply be Force Majure if you take a gearbox penalty after qualy is done. Or you could ignore that and just do a system of teams allowed to contest a penalty if they believe its taken for unsporting reasons ... such as with what happened, for example RB could ask for a inquiry and then Ferrari would have to prove the damage, limit these to 1 or 2 a season (no one will use them anyway though ... see point 1).


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:36 am 
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Did Massa actually change his box or did they just break the seal to invoke the rule?

If he changed the box, did they change his ratios for a better race setup?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:59 am 
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lamo wrote:
Did Massa actually change his box or did they just break the seal to invoke the rule?

If he changed the box, did they change his ratios for a better race setup?


no they just broke the seal. I dont think changing the gears would have really helped him, Ferrari already run a setup that heavily favors race pace over qualy pace.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:08 am 
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I bet Alonso is the first driver out in Quali 3 for the last run.... and Massa (2nd out) bins it in the gravel at the place predetermined to take the longest to recover a car from... BAM pole position.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:40 am 
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@Bakerking31

The reason none of Ferrari's rivals played the 'cheating' card over the gearbox seal is because people in the racing business live to build better cars and strategies within the existing rules as written and they know the difference between being outwitted verses cheated on. That's why their reaction was more like 'ah, very clever'.

As far as your desire to apply 151c: 151c is reserved for real issues that are unforeseen in the rulebook. Things like industrial espionage and team managers telling drivers to crash cars in obscene ways. If each and every action a race team or driver did that got a negative response by you or I on a racing forum qualified as bringing the sport into disrepute, F1 would be paralyzed.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 3:37 am 
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I doubt he would stoop so low, But we know Ferrari are capable of anything this season, so I expect some kind of fireworks on Sunday


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 5:44 am 
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uk in ny wrote:
I bet Alonso is the first driver out in Quali 3 for the last run.... and Massa (2nd out) bins it in the gravel at the place predetermined to take the longest to recover a car from... BAM pole position.

The only time I remember that hapening this year was Kimi spinning at just the right moment in Suzuka to ruin both Alonso and Hamiltons Q3 laps, guaranteing pole for Vettel, he then clipped Alonso on the first bend taking him out.

All this happened the race after Grosjean took out both Hamilton and Alonso at the start of the race.

Maybe those Renault powered Lotus boys are helping Renault powered Vettel to the championship.

Good fun this tin-foil hat conspiricy lark. ;)


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:31 pm 
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cjf1 wrote:
uk in ny wrote:
I bet Alonso is the first driver out in Quali 3 for the last run.... and Massa (2nd out) bins it in the gravel at the place predetermined to take the longest to recover a car from... BAM pole position.

The only time I remember that hapening this year was Kimi spinning at just the right moment in Suzuka to ruin both Alonso and Hamiltons Q3 laps, guaranteing pole for Vettel, he then clipped Alonso on the first bend taking him out.

All this happened the race after Grosjean took out both Hamilton and Alonso at the start of the race.

Maybe those Renault powered Lotus boys are helping Renault powered Vettel to the championship.

Good fun this tin-foil hat conspiricy lark. ;)

Gotta say I was infuriated by that. Alonso woudn't have been anywhere near Kimi at the start in Suzuka if Kimi didn't bin it in qualy.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:41 pm 
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All the FIA has to do is to make the gearbox penalty revokable if the stewards feel like it. This way, they could always reinstate cars in their original position if they feel a team is trying to take advantage and essentially force them to start from the pit lane if they really have to change their gearbox.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 12:45 pm 
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Image

At what point did this thread turn to fairy cakes? Seriously I thought this was supposed to be about would Massa crash for his team mate, not "THEY CHEATED LAST WEEK".

People bitching about what Ferrari did, here's the very simple facts:

- Yes, it was highly unsportsmanlike
- No, it was not cheating
- No, I dont like they did it
- Yes, they would do it again
- No, none of us, not even the biggest fan, knows if another team would do it
- Yes, Ferrari may try something similar this weekend, and if they do that will still not be cheating.
- If the rules allow for it to happen it is not cheating- just highly unsportsmanlike
- I'm not a Ferrari fan, so no fanboy comments here.

Get over it.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:19 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Did Massa actually change his box or did they just break the seal to invoke the rule?

If he changed the box, did they change his ratios for a better race setup?

I believe you have to keep the same ratios even if you change gearboxes.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 1:22 pm 
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Bakerking31 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Bakerking31 wrote:
I agree they didnt break the gearbox replacement rules ... My contention is not that (i know you are referring to w1Y!). But doing so does put a black eye on the sport. Manipulating the grid position by having a #2 driver take a penalty is not good for the sport, it makes it look like a joke. That is why I contend it broke 151c

I understand what you are saying, but that's a very rocky road. At the moment no-one has to declare why they break a seal; they just do it. If you start charging people then you'd have to change the rules to make a team declare, and be able to prove, why they needed to change a gearbox.


3 quick points

First, I dont think this will come up again, its a highly unusual situation that is not normal.

Second, you dont need to change the rules, 151c is already a rule which IMO was violated by Ferrari by messing with the grid order by use of intentional penalties. If Ferrari didn't outright come out and say they are taking the penalty to move Alonso up than I dont think this would be an issue.

Third, we already have Force Majure (or however you spell it) where you have to prove damage in qualy if you dont return to the pits ... While I dont think we need to change the gearbox rules (see point 2) if they did change them it wouldnt be difficult, it would simply be Force Majure if you take a gearbox penalty after qualy is done. Or you could ignore that and just do a system of teams allowed to contest a penalty if they believe its taken for unsporting reasons ... such as with what happened, for example RB could ask for a inquiry and then Ferrari would have to prove the damage, limit these to 1 or 2 a season (no one will use them anyway though ... see point 1).

But the only thing that would achieve is drive everything underground. It wouldn't stop Ferrari from doing the same thing again, but they'd just come up with an imaginary problem and change it anyway. People would then suspect skullduggery and the conspiracy theories would be working overtime but the end result would be the same. Doesn't really solve anything


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:10 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
But the only thing that would achieve is drive everything underground. It wouldn't stop Ferrari from doing the same thing again, but they'd just come up with an imaginary problem and change it anyway. People would then suspect skullduggery and the conspiracy theories would be working overtime but the end result would be the same. Doesn't really solve anything

On what concrete evidence was Michael penalized for stopping at Rascase many years back? On what concrete evidence was Lewis penalized for Spa 2008? Let Ferrari come up with an imaginary problem and if the stewards believe it is a lie, penalize them. Why does the sport have to endure something which so blatantly puts it in disrepute?


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:46 pm 
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This is funny, everybody asking about Massa and not about Vettel crashing Alonso.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 24, 2012 2:47 pm 
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chinki wrote:
Zoue wrote:
But the only thing that would achieve is drive everything underground. It wouldn't stop Ferrari from doing the same thing again, but they'd just come up with an imaginary problem and change it anyway. People would then suspect skullduggery and the conspiracy theories would be working overtime but the end result would be the same. Doesn't really solve anything

On what concrete evidence was Michael penalized for stopping at Rascase many years back? On what concrete evidence was Lewis penalized for Spa 2008? Let Ferrari come up with an imaginary problem and if the stewards believe it is a lie, penalize them. Why does the sport have to endure something which so blatantly puts it in disrepute?

yes! :thumbup: :thumbup:


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