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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:24 am 
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No. I'm amazed that some people seem to think it might happen. There's a massive difference between what Ferrari did in Austin and what is being suggested here.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:33 am 
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I dont think (almost) any team would do that. Ferri have been there since the 50's and no way would one more title be worth the risk f getting caught and expelled even if they did not rule it out on moral grounds.
would Marks and Spenser do and set fire to the shop next door if they had more customers?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:39 am 
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So what is the difference between purposefully crashing versus making a very aggressive move? I was actually wondering last night whether Ferrari would let Massa get ahead of Alonso at Brazil assuming Massa has the pace to catch Vettel and then make the mother of all desperate lunges into Vettel which will almost certainly result in Vettel being taken out of the race.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:40 am 
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j man wrote:
No. I'm amazed that some people seem to think it might happen. There's a massive difference between what Ferrari did in Austin and what is being suggested here.

Does Singapore 08 ring a bell?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:42 am 
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chinki wrote:
So what is the difference between purposefully crashing versus making a very aggressive move? I was actually wondering last night whether Ferrari would let Massa get ahead of Alonso at Brazil assuming Massa has the pace to catch Vettel and then make the mother of all desperate lunges into Vettel which will almost certainly result in Vettel being taken out of the race.



'Monstering' another driver is part and parcel of it, as long as its fair.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:51 am 
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I'd be more worried about lapped Toro Rossos blocking Alonso.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:02 pm 
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"The depths Ferrari will stoop to to get Alonso to win," ??? You mean what any team will do to win a championship? If you believe another team wouldn't have done the same thing in Austin the PR departments in those teams should all get a Christmas bonus.

OP, comparing a loophole in the rules in Austin and Ferrari staging another professional foul that previously saw drivers disqualified from championships and team principals banned from the sport is ludicrous. Ferrari are clever and calculating, but they are not crazy. You forget that they could have had Massa take out Alonso in Brazil in 2006, or Raikkonen take out Hamilton in Brazil in 2008 for a championship. What makes Alonso the Chosen One that will make them change their approach to this kind of tactic? Reply with facts, not speculation please.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:12 pm 
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moby wrote:
chinki wrote:
So what is the difference between purposefully crashing versus making a very aggressive move? I was actually wondering last night whether Ferrari would let Massa get ahead of Alonso at Brazil assuming Massa has the pace to catch Vettel and then make the mother of all desperate lunges into Vettel which will almost certainly result in Vettel being taken out of the race.



'Monstering' another driver is part and parcel of it, as long as its fair.


How was it fair for those who qualified on the clean side but had to move to the dirty side of the track?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:13 pm 
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:thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Paranoid thread.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:35 pm 
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Maybe they will just have him do donuts in the middle of the track while Vettel is approaching like he did in Abu Dhabi!

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:37 pm 
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they would make it look like a racing incident very clever

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:37 pm 
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spooky wrote:
But it didn't cost him the world championship. His stupidity to drive off with the fuel line still attached cost him. Who's too say he wouldn't of done that during his routine stop.

This subject has been done to death
Yet apparently not enough for you to remember that it was in no way Massa's stupidity that caused what happened.
Autosport wrote:
Everyone else was able to pit legally on lap 17, but things would go hideously wrong for Ferrari when the mechanic operating their traffic light pit exit system gave race leader Massa a premature green light.
Any little mistake by any member of a crew can have disastrous consequences. But making a mistake isn't enough to label somebody as stupid.

What I also remember about 2008 is the absolutely fantastic way Felipe Massa behaved like a sportsman and gentleman, after swallowing the first moment of disappointment at seeing the title go to Hamilton. I am confident that Massa will act again like a sportsman and gentleman, and reject any ideas of crashing into someone for "the greater good".

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:41 pm 
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spooky wrote:
But it didn't cost him the world championship. His stupidity to drive off with the fuel line still attached cost him. Who's too say he wouldn't of done that during his routine stop.



No, it's you who's stupid. Do you think that was Massa's fault?

The light went green, he went. If you don't go at the green what the chocolate fudge cake is the point of having it?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Surely its more likely to be the other way round, with Vettel pulling a Schumi?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:31 pm 
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I don't see that this year is any different to any previous years with team-orders in the final parts of the season to give their number 1 driver the best chance possible.

(Ayreton) Senna's deliberately crashed into Prost in order to with the championship.
Schumacher's done it to someone in the 90s (Villeneuve I think - can't remember).
I'm sure there have been more. It's not a new problem to F1.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:36 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
While I do not believe Ferrari would instruct Massa to take out Vettel, I would fully expect that, if the opportunity arose, that Ferrari could ensure that Vettel who have 1 hell of a fight on his hands if he had to negotiate his way past. If I were Ferrari, I would somehow try to place Vettel behind Massa and expect Massa to fight fair but very, very hard and let the cards fall as they may. Maybe try to force Vettel into a mistake trying to get past then who knows what the outcome might be.


EVERY driver will do that. Do you expect someone to let his teammate's contender through just like that without putting up a fight?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:39 pm 
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kai_ wrote:
I don't think Massa is the sort of person who would even consider doing that.

Further, he was essentially robbed of his 2008 WDC by Crashgate in Singapore.

1. Dont bring up 2008 he didnt deserve it.
2. This was the kind of driver who nobody thought would bend over as number 2 after claiming live on air he is not a number 2 and also the driver who took a gear box penalty pretty much ruining his own race.
3. He could have avoided accidents with Lewis last season but always closed the door expecting Lewis's car to magically disappear.

As for the OP Ferrari have already been prepared to sacrifice Massa and it wouldnt surprise me if he did try and "Destroy Vettels Race" similar to what Rob Smedley said about Lewis last season.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:47 pm 
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stringy wrote:
Surely its more likely to be the other way round, with Vettel pulling a Schumi?

He already tried that at Monza and it didn't work out favourably

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:50 pm 
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"OK Felipe we're going to need you to turn around and try hit Vettel. Sorry."

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:51 pm 
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Massa might be the team's bitch, but I do believe he is still above breaking rules and/or putting himself or others in danger. Whether Ferrari would suggest he drive a little clumsily if side to side with Seb....I dunno. I'd like to think they wouldn't go that far, but I could see it.

Seb pulling a Schumi? Not a chance.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:58 pm 
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You guys are clearly not paranoid enough,

KK is needing a "good performance" if he is to keep his drive with Sauber Ferrari, and already has a reputation for being a little unpredictable at times,
Massa would just be too obvious ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:01 pm 
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d_dingbat wrote:
moby wrote:
chinki wrote:
So what is the difference between purposefully crashing versus making a very aggressive move? I was actually wondering last night whether Ferrari would let Massa get ahead of Alonso at Brazil assuming Massa has the pace to catch Vettel and then make the mother of all desperate lunges into Vettel which will almost certainly result in Vettel being taken out of the race.



'Monstering' another driver is part and parcel of it, as long as its fair.


How was it fair for those who qualified on the clean side but had to move to the dirty side of the track?


Are you calling that Purposefully crashing or a Very aggressive move?

If the first, its not and they should and hopefully would be penalised, if the second, it happens to just about every driver every race.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:04 pm 
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Yes because Massa is willing to risk his life and those around him to gift Alonso the title. Only for Ferrari and Alonso to be disqualified / banned for deliberately causing an accident.

What a silly thread.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:45 pm 
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I got better one: Ferrari will just let Massa drive infront of Vettel in Q1 and Vettel can't make fast lap. Massa will just get penalty and vettel will start far behind Alonso. Alonso wins WDC when Vettel can't get to points. Lot easier and safer than crashing and this is even possible.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:47 pm 
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"How is it a compromise if five drivers moved up a position? Or as they were doing their faster lap they were thinking "how fast should I go to nail eighth without someone else taking it from me?

go home silly comments. you're drunk"


Your Ferrari logo speaks more of your attitude than your words. Anyway, there will only br more embarrassment and cheating in Brazill. Please read the "A few conclusions" column to try to understand an issue which is obvious to most others.
Anyway - question to the more sane readers, could Massa enter Q3 with only 20 laps of fuel on board to be at the front of the grid, and "influence the race ( nudge Vettel/ park car on track as requested by Alonso) ?? Should be legal from what I understand..


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:45 pm 
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kai_ wrote:
spooky wrote:
kai_ wrote:
daytona81 wrote:
kai_ wrote:
I don't think Massa is the sort of person who would even consider doing that.

Further, he was essentially robbed of his 2008 WDC by Crashgate in Singapore.


Holy mother of bitterness. Really? This again? Get over it. It's a past season, Phil lost. It's funny how people remember this stuff but they forget how he ran in to Hamilton (Fuji I think) after cutting across the track and making a bee line straight for him. Hamilton not only was spun but I believe his tire was cut Down. How many points did he lose that day DIRECTLY do to massa?


You have massively misunderstood the point I was making there, which may be my fault because I didn't bother to elaborate, but then again I didn't think I'd need to. To elaborate now: Massa is the one and only driver on the grid who would know what it feels like to have another driver deliberately crash for the purpose of fixing a result, which overall did in fact cost him a world championship. He spoke out himself after the details of Crashgate came out saying he felt that the results of that race should have been disregarded. Of all the drivers on the grid who would do something like crash into a driver to secure a WDC win for another driver - the same driver, no less, who benefited that day - I think Massa is the least likely.

But it didn't cost him the world championship. His stupidity to drive off with the fuel line still attached cost him. Who's too say he wouldn't of done that during his routine stop.

This subject has been done to death


Good grief. I'm not opening up the issue of the WDC in 2008; I'm making a point about Massa's empathy for a driver who lost a WDC due to one driver crashing for the benefit of another.


But we are making the case that the argument is invalid because he did many things to himself. And like I said, Massa crashed into Hamilton which is far worse in relation to the driver because massa directly took points away from his contender. So this whole bs argument that has been debated to death in my topics is tire some. A championship is made over a season, not a race. The way I see it is Hamilton got the points that MASSA took away from him by crashing Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:48 pm 
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NvrDieYoung wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
No driver will ever risk his life or health for someone else's championship under any circumstances.


not the case in singapore 2008 though


But alas, this crash for for a race not a championship.....right? Lol

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:53 pm 
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If somehow Massa ends up in front of Vettel he will not intentionally crash BUT he will not race fair. He will close the door and not care if he gets taken out of the race because that is what is expected of him. He would likely be listed as at fault but theres nothing they can do unless they can show it was intentional. Ferrari already showed they dont care about bad press all they care about is pleasing Alonso.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:57 pm 
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daytona81 wrote:
NvrDieYoung wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
No driver will ever risk his life or health for someone else's championship under any circumstances.


not the case in singapore 2008 though


But alas, this crash for for a race not a championship.....right? Lol

If even for only a win and not a championship someone is willing to do that, how much more is it if it's for a championship?

mcdo wrote:
No.

He won't get close enough anyway.

Then they can make Massa start from the pit lane and become a back marker.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Bakerking31 wrote:
If somehow Massa ends up in front of Vettel he will not intentionally crash BUT he will not race fair. He will close the door and not care if he gets taken out of the race because that is what is expected of him. He would likely be listed as at fault but theres nothing they can do unless they can show it was intentional. Ferrari already showed they dont care about bad press all they care about is winning the WDC.

Fixed that for you.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:54 pm 
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Not Massa's style at all, he wouldnt deliberately take anyone out...

I have no doubt he would be robust with Vettel if they were wheel to wheel, but no, he wouldn't take him out.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:06 am 
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Not Massa's style at all, he wouldnt deliberately take anyone out...

I have no doubt he would be robust with Vettel if they were wheel to wheel, but no, he wouldn't take him out.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:16 am 
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Pffft!
I can't believe some of the posts on here. Have some people missed the first few races, like up until October?
Massa was all but out of a job a month or so ago, according to the press. He gets a good result or two and he is fine again according to Ferrari. I feel quite strongly that if Massa was told to crash at any time or place he would, he would not need to be going at great speed just enough to get maybe a safety car out and get Alonso 20 odd seconds closer to Vettel after Fernando has pitted. Ferrari *will* do anything to win this championship.
Indeed, if some people have forgot about Singapore 2008 then this weekend should enable even the blind to see that.
Ferrari pit Massa twice, no three times due to a problem with.........his steering wheel, no wait! A left rear gets stuck on and the crew send him out with 3 new tyres on and one old one. He completes one lap and pits again, then they forget to wipe his visor so he pits again after completing another, this time very slow lap because he couldn't see through his visor, he had forgot to put the 6 tear offs on, he only had 3.......maybe?
Or.........They forget to clean the radiators out at the first pit stop and the car starts overheating so they have to pit him again, whereupon he stalls the car and the guy in the pit crew comes out with a tyre instead of the starter motor he takes it back into the garage and gets the correct starter, in red marked with the word MASSA in white paint, they fail to start the car because he missed the hole next to the ultra compact gearbox bell housing but gets the job done at the second attempt, this takes around 50 seconds which means Massa flies out of the pits about 5 seconds in front of Vettel, phew nearly lapped but not quite, now he really will need to get a wiggle on to get even one point.....he seems to be in trouble there is it seems another problem, a misfire? no maybe not, it's cleared anyway and massa must now keep Vettel behind him to avoid the total and utter embarrassment of being lapped by the soft drinks company's cars. Hell i dunno...................or what do i know?? :lol:
Edit, how many front wings will they have at race time in Brazil? Mirrors???
Hmmmm, does Massa use an inhailer? Wouild he stop for a fag? Marlboro of course?
lmfao!
Of course i have respect for, wait no i'm sorry.......


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:05 am 
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daytona81 wrote:
kai_ wrote:
Good grief. I'm not opening up the issue of the WDC in 2008; I'm making a point about Massa's empathy for a driver who lost a WDC due to one driver crashing for the benefit of another.


But we are making the case that the argument is invalid because he did many things to himself. And like I said, Massa crashed into Hamilton which is far worse in relation to the driver because massa directly took points away from his contender. So this whole bs argument that has been debated to death in my topics is tire some. A championship is made over a season, not a race. The way I see it is Hamilton got the points that MASSA took away from him by crashing Hamilton.


Once again, I am not arguing about the merits of the 2008 championship. I am pointing out Massa's understanding of what it feels like to have something like what is being proposed by this thread happen. Whatever you think of the former, the latter is not an invalid argument as to his position on doing something like this. I have explained this distinction now three times and it is the people posting in response who seem determined to discuss the merits of 2008.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:13 am 
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'Is anyone else worried about Massa crashing Vettel in Brazil?'

No

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:26 am 
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This thread is utter baloni!!!!

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:50 am 
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kai_ wrote:
daytona81 wrote:
kai_ wrote:
Good grief. I'm not opening up the issue of the WDC in 2008; I'm making a point about Massa's empathy for a driver who lost a WDC due to one driver crashing for the benefit of another.


But we are making the case that the argument is invalid because he did many things to himself. And like I said, Massa crashed into Hamilton which is far worse in relation to the driver because massa directly took points away from his contender. So this whole bs argument that has been debated to death in my topics is tire some. A championship is made over a season, not a race. The way I see it is Hamilton got the points that MASSA took away from him by crashing Hamilton.


Once again, I am not arguing about the merits of the 2008 championship. I am pointing out Massa's understanding of what it feels like to have something like what is being proposed by this thread happen. Whatever you think of the former, the latter is not an invalid argument as to his position on doing something like this. I have explained this distinction now three times and it is the people posting in response who seem determined to discuss the merits of 2008.


I think what I just highlighted in bold is a valid counter to what you just wrote. I understand that you aren't arguing the merits of the 2008 championship, but others feel that Massa should not feel that he was robbed by Piquet, but that he was robbed by the mistakes of himself and his team. I think that's the distinction they are making, though they should correct me if I'm wrong. On another day, Piquet's mistake may have helped him after that disaster in the pit lane, if it had happened on a different lap. Such is fate.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:20 pm 
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so Massa spent all of 2010 practicing for this moment....

I think theres a bit too much paranoia here, but that aside, when is Massa ever going to be on the same bit of track as Vettel??


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:32 pm 
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I'm not worried about it because, for all the bending over Felipe has done, I think even he would refuse to do such a thing. Just like I'm sure that if Red Bull asked Webber to crash into Alonso, he'd tell them where to go. Neither team would want to win it under those circumstances. Asking a driver to let his teammate past, make a stop that chocolate fudge cakes up his own race, or even take a grid penalty for the sake of his teammate is one thing, but deliberately crash into another driver? I would like to believe neither Red Bull nor Ferrari would do so.

Hopefully there are no incidents involving Massa/Vettel or Webber/Alonso, because chocolate fudge cake reading all the conspiracy nonsense that would come from that.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 1:43 pm 
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crankshaft_turn wrote:
"How is it a compromise if five drivers moved up a position? Or as they were doing their faster lap they were thinking "how fast should I go to nail eighth without someone else taking it from me?

go home silly comments. you're drunk"


Your Ferrari logo speaks more of your attitude than your words. Anyway, there will only br more embarrassment and cheating in Brazill. Please read the "A few conclusions" column to try to understand an issue which is obvious to most others.
Anyway - question to the more sane readers, could Massa enter Q3 with only 20 laps of fuel on board to be at the front of the grid, and "influence the race ( nudge Vettel/ park car on track as requested by Alonso) ?? Should be legal from what I understand..


Except that they don't run race fuel in qualifying anymore. Hence why Vettel and Hamilton have run out of fuel during q3 this year. I think Massa would be quite a long way back if he ran with 20 laps of fuel in Q3....


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