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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:23 pm 
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iceman_fan90 wrote:
Is anyone else worried about Massa crashing Vettel in Brazil .



No


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:08 am 
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Lotus38 wrote:
Yes, just as much as of Webber crashing Alonso in BRazil... x(

Webber is more likely to want to take out Vettel than Alonso. :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:09 am 
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Psychotext wrote:
Lotus38 wrote:
Yes, just as much as of Webber crashing Alonso in BRazil... x(

Webber is more likely to want to take out Vettel than Alonso. :lol:


Amen to that!!!!

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:40 am 
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This whole season got this forum talking about who will kill who in what race. Nothing happened. Nothing will happen. Every poll before a race : Who will X crash into? / Will X take out Y? / Will Y take out X? / If X takes out Y...... / If Y takes out X .......

STOP.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:44 am 
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chinki wrote:
j man wrote:
No. I'm amazed that some people seem to think it might happen. There's a massive difference between what Ferrari did in Austin and what is being suggested here.

Does Singapore 08 ring a bell?


Again with the singapore 08? What does that have to do with ANYTHING? Just because Alonso is in the thread discussion, doesn't mean crashgate is involved as well.

Any by the way, that was Renault, not Ferrari. Wasn't alonso's idea either.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:46 am 
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trento wrote:
There's no way Massa would crash. The best scenario I can think of is either Massa or Alonso refusing to yield in a dogfight with Vettel, resulting in a crash. Ferrari's best hope in Brazil is to lock out the front row in quali and hope Mclaren takes the 2nd row. At the moment, this seems impossible so their final hope is divine intervention from the weather gods.

imo, the critical point was in Abu Dhabi where Alonso took only 3 points off Vettel despite the latter starting at the back. It should have been much more but overall, the fastest driver with the fastest car deserves the win. Sadly, that isn't Ferrari.



This.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:45 pm 
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metamorphomisk wrote:
chinki wrote:
j man wrote:
No. I'm amazed that some people seem to think it might happen. There's a massive difference between what Ferrari did in Austin and what is being suggested here.

Does Singapore 08 ring a bell?


Again with the singapore 08? What does that have to do with ANYTHING? Just because Alonso is in the thread discussion, doesn't mean crashgate is involved as well.

Any by the way, that was Renault, not Ferrari. Wasn't alonso's idea either.

If you hadnt noticed, Alonso is a common factor in having his teammates removed from the team, having them move over for him on track, blackmailing the team and the boss, asking teammates to crash, having them take grid penalties. What did I miss?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:50 pm 
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chinki wrote:
metamorphomisk wrote:
chinki wrote:
j man wrote:
No. I'm amazed that some people seem to think it might happen. There's a massive difference between what Ferrari did in Austin and what is being suggested here.

Does Singapore 08 ring a bell?


Again with the singapore 08? What does that have to do with ANYTHING? Just because Alonso is in the thread discussion, doesn't mean crashgate is involved as well.

Any by the way, that was Renault, not Ferrari. Wasn't alonso's idea either.

If you hadnt noticed, Alonso is a common factor in having his teammates removed from the team, having them move over for him on track, blackmailing the team and the boss, asking teammates to crash, having them take grid penalties. What did I miss?


This. Although I don't believe Massa would ever do anything like what the op suggested, if anyone was to do anything unsporting, it would be the team Alonso's in at the time


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:00 pm 
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I want to see this order during the race

1. Alonso
2. Hamilton
3. Schumacher/Button/Karthikeyan
4. Webber
5. Massa
6. Vettel

Just to see the ensuing fireworks and fighting from Vettel.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:02 pm 
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chinki wrote:
metamorphomisk wrote:
chinki wrote:
j man wrote:
No. I'm amazed that some people seem to think it might happen. There's a massive difference between what Ferrari did in Austin and what is being suggested here.

Does Singapore 08 ring a bell?


Again with the singapore 08? What does that have to do with ANYTHING? Just because Alonso is in the thread discussion, doesn't mean crashgate is involved as well.

Any by the way, that was Renault, not Ferrari. Wasn't alonso's idea either.

If you hadnt noticed, Alonso is a common factor in having his teammates removed from the team, having them move over for him on track, blackmailing the team and the boss, asking teammates to crash, having them take grid penalties. What did I miss?

Your objectivity.





But don't worry, we all love you the same. :D


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:10 pm 
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chinki wrote:
If you hadnt noticed, Alonso is a common factor in having his teammates removed from the team, having them move over for him on track, blackmailing the team and the boss, asking teammates to crash, having them take grid penalties. What did I miss?

That one is news to me. Examples?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:10 pm 
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metamorphomisk wrote:
chinki wrote:
j man wrote:
No. I'm amazed that some people seem to think it might happen. There's a massive difference between what Ferrari did in Austin and what is being suggested here.

Does Singapore 08 ring a bell?

Again with the singapore 08? What does that have to do with ANYTHING? Just because Alonso is in the thread discussion, doesn't mean crashgate is involved as well.
Any by the way, that was Renault, not Ferrari. Wasn't alonso's idea either.

Proof?
:lol:
Myst wrote:
chinki wrote:
metamorphomisk wrote:
chinki wrote:
j man wrote:
No. I'm amazed that some people seem to think it might happen. There's a massive difference between what Ferrari did in Austin and what is being suggested here.

Does Singapore 08 ring a bell?

Again with the singapore 08? What does that have to do with ANYTHING? Just because Alonso is in the thread discussion, doesn't mean crashgate is involved as well.
Any by the way, that was Renault, not Ferrari. Wasn't alonso's idea either.

If you hadnt noticed, Alonso is a common factor in having his teammates removed from the team, having them move over for him on track, blackmailing the team and the boss, asking teammates to crash, having them take grid penalties. What did I miss?

This. Although I don't believe Massa would ever do anything like what the op suggested, if anyone was to do anything unsporting, it would be the team Alonso's in at the time

Massa ? In order to think that Massa would not do this surely you are thinking he has some integrity which would prevent him from stoopping so low or something similar maybe?
Well i don't see one single iota of decency, or integrity in Massa, Alonso or to be honest the red team and most of the others either!
So Yes Alonso would ask and/or go along with it and ferrari certainly would, they are in a battle for the world championship after all! Massa= patsy, he would certainly do it, and clean the mess up afterwards (it's s reference to his manhood, the possibility of him letting someone (Alonso) else sleep with his wife and then cleaning up aft.....) probably? possibly? I don't know but he is just an oily rag! :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:50 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
chinki wrote:
If you hadnt noticed, Alonso is a common factor in having his teammates removed from the team, having them move over for him on track, blackmailing the team and the boss, asking teammates to crash, having them take grid penalties. What did I miss?

That one is news to me. Examples?

Trulli 2004.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:31 pm 
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chinki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
chinki wrote:
If you hadnt noticed, Alonso is a common factor in having his teammates removed from the team, having them move over for him on track, blackmailing the team and the boss, asking teammates to crash, having them take grid penalties. What did I miss?

That one is news to me. Examples?

Trulli 2004.

Completely ignoring Trulli's balls up on the final corner of the French GP. Ya know, Renault and Michelin's home race where they got embarassed on an international stage.

But somehow Alonso was responsible for getting Trulli removed from the team.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:54 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
chinki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
chinki wrote:
If you hadnt noticed, Alonso is a common factor in having his teammates removed from the team, having them move over for him on track, blackmailing the team and the boss, asking teammates to crash, having them take grid penalties. What did I miss?

That one is news to me. Examples?

Trulli 2004.

Completely ignoring Trulli's balls up on the final corner of the French GP. Ya know, Renault and Michelin's home race where they got embarassed on an international stage.
But somehow Alonso was responsible for getting Trulli removed from the team.

So it's perfectly reasonable to sack him for one mistake? Yet Massa has made a career out of being a complete loser...... To put a more moral and reasonable spin on what the supporters of Alonso and Ferrari are saying after Ferrari moved a few grid positions of their choosing at Austin.....If Massa was any good as a number 2 driver ferrari would have sewn up the title by now and all of this cheating would be totally unnecessary!
By the way why should Renault be embarrassed by that anyway? If every race was approached in a similar fashion there would be a whole world of pain for some no2 drivers at every race! Button is the name which springs to mind, Grosjean and of course Massa.
So, for me yeah Alonso could well have got Trulli "removed"


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 7:13 pm 
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hittheapex wrote:
kai_ wrote:
daytona81 wrote:
kai_ wrote:
Good grief. I'm not opening up the issue of the WDC in 2008; I'm making a point about Massa's empathy for a driver who lost a WDC due to one driver crashing for the benefit of another.


But we are making the case that the argument is invalid because he did many things to himself. And like I said, Massa crashed into Hamilton which is far worse in relation to the driver because massa directly took points away from his contender. So this whole bs argument that has been debated to death in my topics is tire some. A championship is made over a season, not a race. The way I see it is Hamilton got the points that MASSA took away from him by crashing Hamilton.


Once again, I am not arguing about the merits of the 2008 championship. I am pointing out Massa's understanding of what it feels like to have something like what is being proposed by this thread happen. Whatever you think of the former, the latter is not an invalid argument as to his position on doing something like this. I have explained this distinction now three times and it is the people posting in response who seem determined to discuss the merits of 2008.


I think what I just highlighted in bold is a valid counter to what you just wrote. I understand that you aren't arguing the merits of the 2008 championship, but others feel that Massa should not feel that he was robbed by Piquet, but that he was robbed by the mistakes of himself and his team. I think that's the distinction they are making, though they should correct me if I'm wrong. On another day, Piquet's mistake may have helped him after that disaster in the pit lane, if it had happened on a different lap. Such is fate.


Why do you focus on one single aspect only? How about Massa lost the 2008 because of his mistakes AND ALSO because of Singapore GP? In other words Crashgate wasn't THE determining factor but it was A determining factor nonetheless and just like each member of the firing squad shares equal responsibility despite of who shot the fatal shot and who had the dummy bullet, each determining factor was equally crucial for Massa in 2008. The fact that Ferrari or Massa cost himself more points than Crashgate doesn't make it right. Vettel would have clinched the championship by now if he didn't crash with Narain or get penalized when fighting Alonso or if his team put enough fuel and so on. Does this make it right if Massa causes Vettel a DNF in the last race?

If somehow Massa takes out of the race Vettel


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 8:48 pm 
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chinki wrote:
metamorphomisk wrote:
chinki wrote:
j man wrote:
No. I'm amazed that some people seem to think it might happen. There's a massive difference between what Ferrari did in Austin and what is being suggested here.

Does Singapore 08 ring a bell?


Again with the singapore 08? What does that have to do with ANYTHING? Just because Alonso is in the thread discussion, doesn't mean crashgate is involved as well.

Any by the way, that was Renault, not Ferrari. Wasn't alonso's idea either.

If you hadnt noticed, Alonso is a common factor in having his teammates removed from the team, having them move over for him on track, blackmailing the team and the boss, asking teammates to crash, having them take grid penalties. What did I miss?


Really? You gonna say hes blackmailing people?

Asking teammates to crash? Teammate says sure, no problem ,bro?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:37 pm 
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chinki wrote:
metamorphomisk wrote:
chinki wrote:
j man wrote:
No. I'm amazed that some people seem to think it might happen. There's a massive difference between what Ferrari did in Austin and what is being suggested here.

Does Singapore 08 ring a bell?


Again with the singapore 08? What does that have to do with ANYTHING? Just because Alonso is in the thread discussion, doesn't mean crashgate is involved as well.

Any by the way, that was Renault, not Ferrari. Wasn't alonso's idea either.

If you hadnt noticed, Alonso is a common factor in having his teammates removed from the team, having them move over for him on track, blackmailing the team and the boss, asking teammates to crash, having them take grid penalties. What did I miss?



You missed one glaringly obvious fact: There is zero evidence that Alonso was responsible for most of that. You want to believe it, so you believe it, but there is no real reason to believe he asked his teammate to crash, asked Ferrari to break the seal on Massa's gearbox, or asked Flavio to dump Trulli (I'm not sure about the other stuff, so I can't say anything about them). Not liking Alonso is not a good reason to believe he is the source of all evil.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 10:04 am 
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veemax wrote:
So it's perfectly reasonable to sack him for one mistake?

How am I supposed to know what goes on in the bizarre mind of Flavio Briatore? From what I'm aware, and I thought everbody was aware, he was livid after France. Their relationship absolutely broke down and deteriorated to the point where he just gave Trulli the sack.
He then went and made the bizarre choice (probably a masterstroke in his mind) of hiring Jacques Villeneuve to finish the season. We all saw how that went.

veemax wrote:
Yet Massa has made a career out of being a complete loser...... To put a more moral and reasonable spin on what the supporters of Alonso and Ferrari are saying after Ferrari moved a few grid positions of their choosing at Austin.....If Massa was any good as a number 2 driver ferrari would have sewn up the title by now and all of this cheating would be totally unnecessary!

You're preaching to the converted. Never mind next season, Massa shouldn't have been driving the Ferrari this season. But Ferrari find themselves in the position they're in and have to pull out all the stops.

And they didn't cheat, they bent the rules. Red Bull have been bending car design rules for 3 to 4 seasons now. It's the name of the game.

veemax wrote:
By the way why should Renault be embarrassed by that anyway? If every race was approached in a similar fashion there would be a whole world of pain for some no2 drivers at every race! Button is the name which springs to mind, Grosjean and of course Massa.
So, for me yeah Alonso could well have got Trulli "removed"

French GP; Renault = French; Michelin = French.
Knocked off the podium at the final corner by an Italian team with Japanese tyres.
Home GPs are a big deal for multinational companies & these French multinational companies were embarrassed in a big way.

But you claim Alonso got Trulli removed because... why? Trulli had scored one more point than him that season? Trulli had won a race that season? Doubt it somehow. Especially when Renault where a million miles away from either title.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:52 pm 
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SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
You missed one glaringly obvious fact: There is zero evidence that Alonso was responsible for most of that. You want to believe it, so you believe it, but there is no real reason to believe he asked his teammate to crash, asked Ferrari to break the seal on Massa's gearbox, or asked Flavio to dump Trulli (I'm not sure about the other stuff, so I can't say anything about them). Not liking Alonso is not a good reason to believe he is the source of all evil.
True, but equally, the absence of evidence does not make someone innocent...

And, if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck the chances of it being an ostrich are remote


And please, Briatore got rid of Trulli because he refused to allow Briatore to continue to be his manager.

Briatore only employed drivers that he managed, sitting on both sides of the negotiating table was a skill he learnt sometime before his conviction for fraud in Italy

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 4:58 pm 
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I forgot to mention that there is precedent...

In 1964 Lorenzo Bandini, No 2 to John Surtees, took out championship leader Graham Hill from the 3rd place that would have secured his 2nd world title, then when Clark's engine seized on the last lap, Bandini slowed to a crawl to let Surtees past into the 2nd place than won the ex-biker his World Championship.

So Felipe, it's all up to you, son

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 7:57 pm 
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Fat Albert wrote:
SnakeSVT2003 wrote:
You missed one glaringly obvious fact: There is zero evidence that Alonso was responsible for most of that. You want to believe it, so you believe it, but there is no real reason to believe he asked his teammate to crash, asked Ferrari to break the seal on Massa's gearbox, or asked Flavio to dump Trulli (I'm not sure about the other stuff, so I can't say anything about them). Not liking Alonso is not a good reason to believe he is the source of all evil.
True, but equally, the absence of evidence does not make someone innocent...

And, if it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck the chances of it being an ostrich are remote


And please, Briatore got rid of Trulli because he refused to allow Briatore to continue to be his manager.

Briatore only employed drivers that he managed, sitting on both sides of the negotiating table was a skill he learnt sometime before his conviction for fraud in Italy


innocent until proven guilty?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:02 am 
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PacificBeach wrote:
If we see Flavio around Sao Paulo that is when RBR should start worrying...


:D :D :D :D :D I sort of agree!!

Unless Mr Vettel tries to overtake Massa he might forget he's there!!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:24 am 
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Greg92 wrote:
hittheapex wrote:
kai_ wrote:
daytona81 wrote:
kai_ wrote:
Good grief. I'm not opening up the issue of the WDC in 2008; I'm making a point about Massa's empathy for a driver who lost a WDC due to one driver crashing for the benefit of another.


But we are making the case that the argument is invalid because he did many things to himself. And like I said, Massa crashed into Hamilton which is far worse in relation to the driver because massa directly took points away from his contender. So this whole bs argument that has been debated to death in my topics is tire some. A championship is made over a season, not a race. The way I see it is Hamilton got the points that MASSA took away from him by crashing Hamilton.


Once again, I am not arguing about the merits of the 2008 championship. I am pointing out Massa's understanding of what it feels like to have something like what is being proposed by this thread happen. Whatever you think of the former, the latter is not an invalid argument as to his position on doing something like this. I have explained this distinction now three times and it is the people posting in response who seem determined to discuss the merits of 2008.


I think what I just highlighted in bold is a valid counter to what you just wrote. I understand that you aren't arguing the merits of the 2008 championship, but others feel that Massa should not feel that he was robbed by Piquet, but that he was robbed by the mistakes of himself and his team. I think that's the distinction they are making, though they should correct me if I'm wrong. On another day, Piquet's mistake may have helped him after that disaster in the pit lane, if it had happened on a different lap. Such is fate.


Why do you focus on one single aspect only? How about Massa lost the 2008 because of his mistakes AND ALSO because of Singapore GP? In other words Crashgate wasn't THE determining factor but it was A determining factor nonetheless and just like each member of the firing squad shares equal responsibility despite of who shot the fatal shot and who had the dummy bullet, each determining factor was equally crucial for Massa in 2008. The fact that Ferrari or Massa cost himself more points than Crashgate doesn't make it right. Vettel would have clinched the championship by now if he didn't crash with Narain or get penalized when fighting Alonso or if his team put enough fuel and so on. Does this make it right if Massa causes Vettel a DNF in the last race?

If somehow Massa takes out of the race Vettel


Sorry, that's a completely disingenuous metaphor to use for F1, and how do you prove the equal weight of determining factors in Singapore etc etc. I'm not going round in circles on this one.

Further, I was keeping to the original topic of the OP, not opening up a forensic analysis on why Massa lost the championship. That's why I didn't focus on other aspects. The original topic was about drivers taking out championship rivals. It just so happens that Massa could do that for Alonso, which is why his name was introduced into the thread, by kai, making a great point, but others completley missed the subtlety of it and raced to their keyboards before reading it properly.

If you want to debate about precisely why Massa lost the 2008 championship, start a new thread, I'm not derailing this one.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 4:28 am 
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I'm more concerned about the Torra Rosso's influencing the outcome of the race. Why crash one of your own cars when your junior team can take out a Ferrari?


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:52 am 
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iceman_fan90 wrote:
Ferrari showed today the depths they are willing to stoop to to get Alonso to win. I am honestly worried for Vettel in Brazil. If the oppertunity presents I think Ferrari will make Massa crash into Vettel to get Alonso to win. Can FIA strip Alonso of the world title if it seems that Massa deliberately crashed into Vettel? I hope Red Bull has some sort of plan to always have one car between him and Massa.


Based on past history (last race of the season, 2 contenders) it is more likely that Vettel will take out Alonzo and just end it in the first turn. No, I don't expect that to happen but you do sound paranoid. There is a big difference in making a perfectly legal move to push their contender forward and breaking the rules to the extent that they risk getting the team and driver banned from the sport.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:58 am 
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iceman_fan90 wrote:
Ferrari showed today the depths they are willing to stoop to to get Alonso to win. I am honestly worried for Vettel in Brazil. If the oppertunity presents I think Ferrari will make Massa crash into Vettel to get Alonso to win. Can FIA strip Alonso of the world title if it seems that Massa deliberately crashed into Vettel? I hope Red Bull has some sort of plan to always have one car between him and Massa.

And about 2 decades ago, in a similar situation, a certain other driver showed that he wasn't above crashing into his former teammate to make sure he didn't win the title... But um, I'm not surprised that this thread has already been started, but it is tiring how people have selective memories and consider cynicism a trait exclusive to Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 9:51 am 
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mcdo wrote:
chinki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
chinki wrote:
If you hadnt noticed, Alonso is a common factor in having his teammates removed from the team, having them move over for him on track, blackmailing the team and the boss, asking teammates to crash, having them take grid penalties. What did I miss?

That one is news to me. Examples?

Trulli 2004.

Completely ignoring Trulli's balls up on the final corner of the French GP. Ya know, Renault and Michelin's home race where they got embarassed on an international stage.

But somehow Alonso was responsible for getting Trulli removed from the team.

Completely ignoring Trulli had won the most prestigious race a few weeks before, are we? Trulli was unwilling to accept some terms for a contract renewal. Any idea which?

Whether it was/is Alonso who puts forward his demands in contract talks or whether it was/is Briatore, including Renault, that is three teams we know of where he wanted clear number one status. In his present one, his sponsor even paid to get the most troublesome potential in-house competitor out of the way.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:29 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
chinki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
chinki wrote:
If you hadnt noticed, Alonso is a common factor in having his teammates removed from the team, having them move over for him on track, blackmailing the team and the boss, asking teammates to crash, having them take grid penalties. What did I miss?

That one is news to me. Examples?

Trulli 2004.

Completely ignoring Trulli's balls up on the final corner of the French GP. Ya know, Renault and Michelin's home race where they got embarassed on an international stage.

But somehow Alonso was responsible for getting Trulli removed from the team.

Completely ignoring Trulli had won the most prestigious race a few weeks before, are we? Trulli was unwilling to accept some terms for a contract renewal. Any idea which?

Whether it was/is Alonso who puts forward his demands in contract talks or whether it was/is Briatore, including Renault, that is three teams we know of where he wanted clear number one status. In his present one, his sponsor even paid to get the most troublesome potential in-house competitor out of the way.

I referred to that in another post. I don't understand why Alonso would have Trulli removed midway through a season where they weren't in contention for either title. Trulli had won a race that year and had scored one more point than Alonso at the time of his ousting from the team, so what? How would that make Alonso want to kick him out?

Anywho I don't agree he asked for clear number one status at three different teams. McLaren yes, Renault and Ferrari he earned it.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:39 pm 
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I worry it won't happen


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:43 pm 
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Yes.


But not me.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:44 pm 
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iceman_fan90 wrote:
Is anyone else worried about Massa crashing Vettel in Brazil


No and if you genuinely think that he would, then you are deluded.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 1:45 pm 
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Ah, the trademark term of the PF1-forum; Deluded.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:05 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
mcdo wrote:
chinki wrote:
If you hadnt noticed, Alonso is a common factor in having his teammates removed from the team, having them move over for him on track, blackmailing the team and the boss, asking teammates to crash, having them take grid penalties. What did I miss?


Completely ignoring Trulli's balls up on the final corner of the French GP. Ya know, Renault and Michelin's home race where they got embarassed on an international stage.

But somehow Alonso was responsible for getting Trulli removed from the team.

Completely ignoring Trulli had won the most prestigious race a few weeks before, are we? Trulli was unwilling to accept some terms for a contract renewal. Any idea which?

Whether it was/is Alonso who puts forward his demands in contract talks or whether it was/is Briatore, including Renault, that is three teams we know of where he wanted clear number one status. In his present one, his sponsor even paid to get the most troublesome potential in-house competitor out of the way.

I referred to that in another post. I don't understand why Alonso would have Trulli removed midway through a season where they weren't in contention for either title. Trulli had won a race that year and had scored one more point than Alonso at the time of his ousting from the team, so what? How would that make Alonso want to kick him out?
Look at it this way: we are talking about 2004. What came the year after? A world drivers' title for Alonso, under new tyre rules, and as Michelin's preferred team.
When was that season prepared? 2004. And who was the sole race winner for the team? Trulli. Too close for comfort. Of course, everybody is free to believe a mistake by Trulli, which only meant a 3rd place became a 4th, was enough to convince Briatore that Trulli would never amount to anything. As if to prove it, later seasons were to show Trulli was more than capable of keeping faster drivers behind him.
Trulli didn't make a secret of the fact he wasn't keen to re-sign under certain conditions, and this well before he wasn't even allowed to finish the season. I doubt many people would think that what he didn't like at Renault was the smell of the bubbly bath soap...

mcdo wrote:
Anywho I don't agree he asked for clear number one status at three different teams. McLaren yes, Renault and Ferrari he earned it.
I like people with a sense of humour! :D McLaren was the first confirmation, but for anyone to suggest Alonso earned number one status at Ferrari is laughable. Santander put up the money to buy number one status, or didn't you notice a certain Finnish driver was paid to go on gardening leave?

Having said all that, there's no denying Alonso's talent. It is huge. And I can't blame him for thinking the only way to really make a name for yourself in modern F1, is to do it the Schumacher way. He didn't fare too badly, did he? Just let's not throw out the child with the bath water. Bubbles or no. :)

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Last edited by Fiki on Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:07 pm 
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There is a HUGE difference between "Crashing into Vettel", and an extra-hard breaking, into a corner if he was infront; that would cause Vettel to lose his nose cone.

Just sayin' 8O 8O


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:43 pm 
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Gambitt wrote:
There is a HUGE difference between "Crashing into Vettel", and an extra-hard breaking, into a corner if he was infront; that would cause Vettel to lose his nose cone.

Just sayin' 8O 8O

Stewards will ask telemetry, and he could be disqualified. But with some considerations and preassure from RBR and F1 fraternity, even Ferrari could be disqualified for the Brazilian event. Which means, Vettel is a champ.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 2:56 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
veemax wrote:
So it's perfectly reasonable to sack him for one mistake?

How am I supposed to know what goes on in the bizarre mind of Flavio Briatore? From what I'm aware, and I thought everbody was aware, he was livid after France. Their relationship absolutely broke down and deteriorated to the point where he just gave Trulli the sack.
He then went and made the bizarre choice (probably a masterstroke in his mind) of hiring Jacques Villeneuve to finish the season. We all saw how that went.

veemax wrote:
Yet Massa has made a career out of being a complete loser...... To put a more moral and reasonable spin on what the supporters of Alonso and Ferrari are saying after Ferrari moved a few grid positions of their choosing at Austin.....If Massa was any good as a number 2 driver ferrari would have sewn up the title by now and all of this cheating would be totally unnecessary!

You're preaching to the converted. Never mind next season, Massa shouldn't have been driving the Ferrari this season. But Ferrari find themselves in the position they're in and have to pull out all the stops.
And they didn't cheat, they bent the rules. Red Bull have been bending car design rules for 3 to 4 seasons now. It's the name of the game.
veemax wrote:
By the way why should Renault be embarrassed by that anyway? If every race was approached in a similar fashion there would be a whole world of pain for some no2 drivers at every race! Button is the name which springs to mind, Grosjean and of course Massa.
So, for me yeah Alonso could well have got Trulli "removed"

French GP; Renault = French; Michelin = French.
Knocked off the podium at the final corner by an Italian team with Japanese tyres.
Home GPs are a big deal for multinational companies & these French multinational companies were embarrassed in a big way.
But you claim Alonso got Trulli removed because... why? Trulli had scored one more point than him that season? Trulli had won a race that season? Doubt it somehow. Especially when Renault where a million miles away from either title.

They cheated because they moved other people from the clean side of the track to the dirty side. The Red Bull front wing was a genuine attempt to make a front wing which passed the rules, that's all anyone needs and tries to do, get it passed by the rule makers which it did until they changed the rules, that's not cheating it's acceptable, if *anyone* else had though of it (except McLaren) it wouldn't have been such an issue becuause they weren't beating farreri!
The same applies to Renault complaining at Silverstone last year, they were asked to complain because they "owed" farreri a favour for the Nelson Piquet jr crash.
The Hole in the floor? yada, yada, yada.
farreri? no i don't like them. Not since the day's of Mansell and Prost when Cesare Fiorio admitted giving Prost, Mansells car. Mansell, if i remember correctly still went on to win! They should have learned their lesson then but....What's that old saying abour fiddling whilst Rome burns?? :lol: I 'm just a little bitter but i laugh at them!


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:07 pm 
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veemax wrote:
They cheated because they moved other people from the clean side of the track to the dirty side. The Red Bull front wing was a genuine attempt to make a front wing which passed the rules, that's all anyone needs and tries to do, get it passed by the rule makers which it did until they changed the rules, that's not cheating it's acceptable, if *anyone* else had though of it (except McLaren) it wouldn't have been such an issue becuause they weren't beating farreri!
The same applies to Renault complaining at Silverstone last year, they were asked to complain because they "owed" farreri a favour for the Nelson Piquet jr crash.
The Hole in the floor? yada, yada, yada.
farreri? no i don't like them. Not since the day's of Mansell and Prost when Cesare Fiorio admitted giving Prost, Mansells car. Mansell, if i remember correctly still went on to win! They should have learned their lesson then but....What's that old saying abour fiddling whilst Rome burns?? :lol: I 'm just a little bitter but i laugh at them!



So did Lotus cheat by giving Roman a penalty which moved the Ferraris onto the dirty side? Surely that was a ploy forced upon them by their engine supplier to help the #1 team.

And Mansell didn't goon to win. His gearbox went.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:49 pm 
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Johnston wrote:
veemax wrote:
They cheated because they moved other people from the clean side of the track to the dirty side. The Red Bull front wing was a genuine attempt to make a front wing which passed the rules, that's all anyone needs and tries to do, get it passed by the rule makers which it did until they changed the rules, that's not cheating it's acceptable, if *anyone* else had though of it (except McLaren) it wouldn't have been such an issue becuause they weren't beating farreri!
The same applies to Renault complaining at Silverstone last year, they were asked to complain because they "owed" farreri a favour for the Nelson Piquet jr crash.
The Hole in the floor? yada, yada, yada.
farreri? no i don't like them. Not since the day's of Mansell and Prost when Cesare Fiorio admitted giving Prost, Mansells car. Mansell, if i remember correctly still went on to win! They should have learned their lesson then but....What's that old saying abour fiddling whilst Rome burns?? :lol: I 'm just a little bitter but i laugh at them!



So did Lotus cheat by giving Roman a penalty which moved the Ferraris onto the dirty side? Surely that was a ploy forced upon them by their engine supplier to help the #1 team.

And Mansell didn't goon to win. His gearbox went.


He had that penalty before he qualified, so no, its not even close to the same thing.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 3:52 pm 
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this thread is still happening? really?

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